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Apostolic Succession False

If the Apostles were the only inspired writers worthy of New Testament cannonization, does that make Apostolic Succession a false doctrine?

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 ---Lance on 6/15/09
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Meira - *The Sabbath was given by Elohim as a sign of those who are holy (set-apart). (Ex 31:13, 17)

Ex. 31:13,17 You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.... It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.

No wonder you are so confused as your theology is really convolved. Apparently you think that when one becomes a Christian that one also become Jewish. Sorry but that issue was settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.
---Lee1538 on 7/15/09


Meira - Christ considered the spirit behind the law to be of more importance than adherence to the letter of the law. (try reading Matthew 5, where Jesus often states 'but I say unto you')

OTOH, we read that the letter of the law kills but the Spirit gives life.

2 Cor. 3:6... who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

And why would we want to model ourselves after the chief enemies of our Lord who taught OT sabbath observance?
---Lee1538 on 7/15/09


However, the spirit behind the law is being fulfilled by those who recognize Sunday as the Christian Sabbath.
---Lee1538


The Sabbath was given by Elohim as a sign of those who are holy (set-apart). (Ex 31:13, 17)

Elohim cannot change (Mal 3:6)

The words that Yahushua spoke were given to him by Elohim by the same Spirit that has been given to all of us (Jhn 3:34)

The father, son and spirit are one (meaning they are in agreement. (1 Jhn 5:7)

To say that Spirit of the law is being fulfilled by something that was not given by Elohim is a total contradiction of scripture.
---Meira on 7/14/09


Meira - *Saturday is a still a workday in this 24/7 society that we live in, yet many who love the Messiah and want to keep his commandments are finding the joy and blessings of keeping the sabbath as commanded.

While Saturday is still considered a workday, the fact remains that it would have been totally impractical to command Gentile converts to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Some early Christians were slaves and can you see a slave asking his master to have a certain day off for religious reasons?

It is always a joy and blessing to gather together to worship with others the Lord, even on any day.

However, the spirit behind the law is being fulfilled by those who recognize Sunday as the Christian Sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 7/14/09


The early church was composed of lower economic & social classes (1 Cor. 1:26), so it would have been totally unrealistic for the early church to insist upon Sabbath observance for Gentiles. ---Lee1538

Saturday is a still a workday in this 24/7 society that we live in, yet many who love the Messiah and want to keep his commandments are finding the joy and blessings of keeping the sabbath as commanded.
---Meira on 7/13/09




Rob - yes we have listened to old Fred Price many times and I would say that he is a very good TV preacher. I think that his son has taken over his ministry.

However, I base my belief on the traditional view that the office of Apostle no longer exist.

And no, I would not declare someone that has such an erroneous view to be a false teacher or prophet, only that they have chosen not to comply with what the church has believed since its conception regarding the office of Apostle.
---Lee1538 on 7/13/09


Lee, what I am saying is anone living in the world today who claims to be an APOSTLE OF CHRIST is a FALSE APOSTLE and a FALSE TEACHER.

An example is Frederick K.C. Price who last year told people he has been confirmed as a APOSTLE OF CHRIST.

Frederick Price claims to be spreading the GOSPEL, but what he will not tell you is the gospel he is spreading IS NOT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST, Galatians 1:6-10.

Here is a perfect example. A few years ago I saw with my own eyes and heard with my own ears Frederick K.C. Price tell people "JESUS DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS BECAUSE JESUS COMMITTED SUICIDE."
---Rob on 7/13/09


Rob -

The office of Apostles no longer exists.

Easton Dictionary - It was characteristic of the apostles and necessary

1. that they should have seen the Lord, and been able to testify of him and of his resurrection from personal knowledge #Joh 15:27 Ac 1:21,22 1Co 9:1 Ac 22:14,15

2. They must have been immediately called to that office by Christ #Lu 6:13 Ga 1:1

I think what you meant is that there are false teachers in the church today of whom we should be very watchful.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


Meira, Adventist Samuel Bacchiocchi,theologian & professor of church history at Andrews Univ. found from his research the Gentile church no longer observed the sabbath by the end of the 1st century. Re: From Sabbath to Sunday - A historical investigation of the rise of Sunday observance in Early Christianity.

He theorized the Gentile church sought to distance itself from their Jewish roots to avoid persecution.

However, the fact you ignore is Saturday was considered a workday in most of the Roman world except in Jewish communities. The early church was composed of lower economic & social classes (1 Cor. 1:26), so it would have been totally unrealistic for the early church to insist upon Sabbath observance for Gentiles.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


The more that time passes, the more there are people springing up who claim to be the Apostles of Christ.

In scripture, it list the names of every person who was ever called by Christ to be His Apostle, Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:12-26, and Romans 1:1-6.

In Scripture it list the conditions which must be met to be an Apostle of Christ, Acts 1:21-22.

In Scripture it tells us anyone else who claims to be an Apostle is not of Christ but is of Satan, 2 Corinthians 11:12-15.

I wonder why those in the world today who claim to be an Apostle of Christ will never ever share these passages of scripture.
---Rob on 7/12/09




During the Jewish rebellions of 70 and 135 A.d... -Lee

These time frames that you refer to were not jewish REBELLIONS, but a time of persecution- when Nero set fire to the city & blamed jews, when the temple was destroyed by Rome, & when Jewish people were beaten, burned & murdered.

Often people who were once pagan but then professed belief in the Messiah, returned to their pagan roots to avoid such physical persecution. this is one reason why people began to worship on sunday in order not to LOOK jewish.

Such persecution will once again become common place as those who believe in the messiah and keep his commandments (rev 14:9-12) are persecuted for not following the laws of the "New Rome".
---Meira on 7/12/09


*Do tell, what will be the name of the gate you will enter through?

While the names of the gates reflect the names of the 12 tribes of Israel, there is nothing in the record that restricts who that is Redeemed of the Lord can go into whatever gate.

In Revelation 21 we also see the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem named after the 12 tribes and with the 12 foundations named after the 12 Apostles.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


Meira - While some of the churches were constructed around the synagogues, the synagogues were not the place where Gentiles received instruction. In fact, the Jews in some of the synagogues forbid Christians to attend. See Acts 18.

The early churches were mostly house churches, not public building such as was found in the Jewish synagogues.

During the Jewish rebellions of 70 and 135 A.d. most Gentile churches tried to separate themselves from their Jewish origins to avoid persecution. They did not want to be viewed as another Jewish sect.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


Lee- *However, we cannot find a single apostolic writer that supported the view that the OT sabbath had to be observed by Gentile converts. The Jerusalem council (Acts 15)should have settled that issue.*

You are correct. Acts 15 does settle it.

Knowing that too much info would be overload for mind and spirit, they addressed only the 4 most important topics according to the Torah in a letter because they knew that the rest of torah (Elohim's instructions) would be taughtn on the sabbath in the synagouges (v20-21).
---Meira on 7/10/09


Part 2
Lee, Perhaps then you say that the eternal sabbath is only for Israel?

Then let me ask you this question?

All those who enter into the millenial reign in New Jerusalem must enter through on of the named gates as prescribed in Ez 48:30-35 & Rev 21:12.

Do tell, what will be the name of the gate you will enter through?

Rueben?
Judah?
Levi?
Joseph?
Benjamin?
Dan?
Simeon?
Issachar?
Zebulun?
Gad?
Asher?
Naphtali?

There is no Gentile Gate.
If you choose one of these gates, the you claim to belong to Israel. If you belong to Israel, then the sabbath applies to you as well (2 Chronn 2:4)
---Meira on 7/10/09


meira - *There the apostolic writers looked to Christ for their understanding, their understanding must NOT have contradicted the OT either.

However, we cannot find a single apostolic writer that supported the view that the OT sabbath had to be observed by Gentile converts. The Jerusalem council (Acts 15)should have settled that issue.

Saturday - the Jewish Sabbath, was considered a workday in all parts of the Roman world except for Jewish communities. It would not have been feasible in the least for Gentile converts to observe the Sabbath in light of the fact that the majority of them were of the lower social and economic class.

Sabbaterians cannot even begin to contest that fact!
---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


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Part 1 The Midrashes or Letters of Paul about the "traditional Pharasee/Essne view of the Law and Atonement made by Messiah concerning the assemblies at Colosse & Galatia deal specifically with a false doctrine taught by Pharassee and Essene sects that tried to take over the early assembly by teaching that "their" traditional "view of Law" saves you.

Paul is not attacking the Law itself or the use of Holidays by the Body of Messiah but their misuse of it and "extra biblical mysticism" that sounds like new age religion added to "Judaism" and still seen amoung modern Pharasee groups. They follow their traditional view of Law not the Law itself like many churches today.
---Yochanan on 7/9/09


Part 2 They beleive they have Halakalah or authority and succession to interpret the word through this tradition just as they did during Messiah'time on earth. Catholics & Protestants do the same thing in their greco-roman & ethic views of the bible.

No unbeleiver in Messiah or strict keeper of Law should condem anyone in "how the beleiver" keeps these Moedim Holi-days since they are part of the Law and the Prophets that point to Messiah and other future events not completed. The Hebrew culture given by Elohim is an Astro-Agro-Enviro-Economic-Liguistic -Poetic- & Spiritual culture where everything points back to Messiah. Even lowest of intelligence can figure things out in practice of these Holidays besides reading.
---Yochanan on 7/9/09


Part 3 Because of this alleged Apostolic Succession ploy, the Roman church changed the Holidays, taught predjudice against Jewish culture, and instituted mixed Sun-God pagan family worship Laws, philosophy and Calender. This took the body of Messiah off God's system and bible view, yet they did use Mosaic Law in their government and pick and chose like Protestants do.

The Bible Holy Days are the true heritage of the Body of Christ. They are not to be used as a hard yoke. A person must fulfill Love and forgiveness before partaking in any experiance with God, otherwise it is useless.
---Yochanan on 7/9/09


not everyone who keeps the shabbot belongs to the "SDA camp".

the word sabbath refers to rest and includes the weekly day of rest (7th day) and also the first day of each the biblical festivals-according to the OT.

the teachings of Christ never contradicted the OT scriptures. There the apostolic writers looked to Christ for their understanding, their understanding must NOT have contradicted the OT either.

the bereans of acts 17 also found that the teachings of Paul did NOT contradict OT scriptures.
---meira on 7/8/09


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Apostolic succession implies that since a church was founded by one of the Apostles that its teachings must reflect the teachings of the Apostle that they received directly from Christ. The argument was used to settle issues that arose in the church regarding teachings that came to be considered heretical.

Col. 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Scholars now (some being from the SDA camp) now believe that whenever the phrase 'festival, new moon or Sabbath' occurs in the Bible, Sabbath refers to the weekly sabbath. That being the case whenever it has occured in the OT
---Lee1538 on 7/8/09


Lee
It is about the Millenial Reign & Feast Keeping. Zech 14:16 & 18

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, & to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, & come not, that have no rain, there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
---Meira on 7/7/09


Colossians 2:16-17 is often interpreted incorrectly from the Greek.

vv16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body [is] of Christ. KJV

When a word is found in brackets it was added to the text by the translators-meaning it was not in the original manuscript.

In this verse, the word [is] is added.

When removed to read as the original text would, you read
"let no man judge,BUT the body of christ in drink...holyday...new moon...sabbath, which are a shadow of things to come.

Read again Zech 14:16-18 for confirmation
---Meira on 7/7/09


Yocha - *Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:2-3, Ezek. 45:21-25 & Zechariah 14:16

None of those verses really have anything to do with the millenium reign of Christ.

It is only those who are obsessed with the rituals of the Old Testament dispensation that would even suggest that any of the feasts - most of them reflect back to the history of Israel, would even be celebrated in the millenium kingdom.
---lee1538 on 7/7/09


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And there are people who say they have faith yet dont follow the law which makes them a lier! According to John if you say you know the Father and keep not the Torah you are a lier. That means most of you here in this forum, not all but most!
---wayne on 7/7/09


Yocha - *If a beleiver can keep the sabbath they should try not to lay aside the commandments,

The believer should cause all areas of his or her life to be pleasing to God, their creator.

And that is why,in part, Christians living under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant of the church, gather today to worhsip Him on the Christian Sabbath, Sunday, the Lord's day, that tradition established by the Apostles and their immediate successors.
---Lee1538 on 7/7/09


There are those that need the law as they clearly have not learned to live by faith.

Romans 1:17b 'the righteous shall live by faith'.

Ga 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
---Lee1538 on 7/6/09


End- If a beleiver can keep the sabbath they should try not to lay aside the commandments. we should let the Holy Spirit grow us in understanding the meaning of Moedim-appointed times and the orignal faith our fathers.

We are all still growing (Jesus is not finished with His assembly) He is calling us out of Babylon. Zechariah 2:10-11/Revelations 18:4-5.

Beleivers will keep the feasts & Laws in the Millinum. The Holy Spirit is not against it.

Isaiah 2:2-4, Micah 4:2-3, Ezek. 45:21-25 & Zechariah 14:16 Yahushua-Jesus will celebrate Passover in the Millinum Luke 22.

Yahushua-Jesus & Apostolic church celebrated the Biblical festivals and passed to us.
---Yochanan on 7/6/09


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Many of those Babylonian sun-worship traditions are the same traditions that the Law(Torah)and TANKH(OT) Hebrew writings ban beleivers in both covenants as seen in Pauls letters. They are being fullfilled in possibly our time to point to an anti-Messiah likened unto Nimrod's One world government.

The New Covenant laws also warn against "some" Jewish traditions that were mixed with Gnosticism, Mysticism, and the extra biblical traidtional laws. This is the "Yoke" in Acts 15- "not the Law".

The Law never taught many things put forth by the Pharasees. This is why many missed Him and created"Works of the Law" circumcison salavation. It's not in the TANKH!
---Yochanan on 7/6/09


Part 2- the 7th Day and Gentiles working in early and modern communities.

Messiah said, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He is Lord of the Sabbath. He healed and walked etc all permitted by Law. He isn't againtst it.

This is an example for people who say what would Jesus do? He'd keep the Sabbath, do what has to be done and not be ruled by it. This is the point made in Colossians 2:16 & 17 at that time. It never says not to do them since they are a shadow of things that are coming and part of the church or body of Messiah. Meaning don't judge in how they keep them.

The letter deals with not getting caught up in the mysticism and strict tradition that condems.
---Yochanan on 7/6/09


*There is no new Law that tells Christians to worship idols or keep pagan Sun GOD Worship either. Same ban in Old covenant.

There is a law found both in the Old and New Testament that forbids the worship of idols.

And there is nothing that tells Christians they must reserve that day for worship devoted to the Roman god Saturnus.

While Saturday was a mere workday in most of the Roman empire any student familiar with church history will tell you that it would have been very impractical to demand Gentile converts to observe the OT sabbath and we see no command in the New Covenant of the church to observe the OT sabbath.
---Lee1538 on 7/5/09


Jocha*He is referring to the Oral tradition Law, not Moses.

Sorry but the Bible does NOT make any such distinction. What you are doing is to force an invalid interpretation to fit your desire belief system..

For instance, when Scripture states -

Mt 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

or

Ro 7:6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

No distinction between types of law is made!

You truly war against the grace of God believing one is justified by the Torah law.
---Lee1538 on 7/5/09


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*Remember that torah was given to the Israelites & foreigners (not just Jews-who are simply people of the tribe of judah and benjamin who resided in the land of Judea)

The torah was given only to the nation of Israel. Those that left Egypt with the Hebrew people did so with the knowledge that they would come under the jurisdiction of the Hebrew leadership. Many had intermarried with the Hebrew people and left with their families.
---Lee1538 on 7/4/09


The whole New Covenant letters express the interpretation of the Torah completed by Yahushua(Jesus-ISEOUS). No way around it by clipping scripture out of context. No scriptures tell Chrisitans to disregard the Law. He is referring to the Oral tradition Law, not Moses.

There is no new Law that tells Christians to worship idols or keep pagan Sun GOD Worship either. Same ban in Old covenant.

I think that Paul was trying to protect the early gentile converts from the Essene/Pharasee and Gnostic doctrinal interpretations of the Law in the early church. MESSIAH completed Judaism. He did not create a new religion.
---Yochanan on 7/4/09


Ac 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

CUSTOMS refers to the man-made customs ADDED by the rabbim. This is seperate from the TORAH-which is hebrew for "Gods instructions"

"Obviously Paul did not teach Gentiles that they needed to follow laws from the Torah that were uniquely Jewish in nature. He was far more interesting in telling others about Jesus and the Cross."

Obviously, HE DID. Read Acts 17, the Bereans read the scriptures daily to ensure that all Paul taught was in agreement with the OT.
---Meira on 7/4/09


Samuel, what authority do you have for what's in the Bible to start with OTHER than tradition?

The only "tradition" that we should adhere to is that which is from the beginning. Elohim gave us his word and torah to live by and any cannonized book should agree with that. However, not all scripture has been included in our canonized bible.

Our canonized bible was heavily influenced by the pagan practices of constantine and a 3rd centuries desire not reflect anything of what people call Judaism.

Remember that torah was given to the Israelites & foreigners (not just Jews-who are simply people of the tribe of judah and benjamin who resided in the land of Judea)
---Meira on 7/4/09


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The Apostolic Church was born on the day Pentecost according to Acts 2 v's37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20 was delievered by Apostle Peter to the Jewish people First, then Apostle Paul brought this Very Same Salvation plan to us gentiles. Gal.1 v's 8-9. Straight is gate & narrow is the way and be few to find it.
B R O A D is the way that leads to destructiom & Many it shall be with All the Man-made relig-org's churches.
---Lawrence on 7/3/09


Ac 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.

Obviously Paul did not teach Gentiles that they needed to follow laws from the Torah that were uniquely Jewish in nature. He was far more interesting in telling others about Jesus and the Cross.

1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
---Lee1538 on 6/27/09


Yes they had problems much the same as today, and Paul was preaching very controversial doctrines that the Jewish church had problems accepting.

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation,

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---exzucuh on 6/26/09


exzucuh -interesting points. later after persecution hit Jersalem many of the Apostles were marytered in different places. They would have certainly taught what Yahushua(Jesus) taught. I know it would have taken time for people to grasp those Torah concepts as prostyltes Acts 15.

Peter wrote to the churchs. He made the point that some of Paul's letters were hard to understand and people were distorting them to their own judgement 2 Peter 3:16.

Circumcison salvation was not a Law concept vs. Pharasee/Essne teaching tradition of law. Law never promoted it. Believers were no longer gentiles or strangers. Jewish vs. Gentile church was a wrong concept since all are Isreal through Messiah. However, on that Day we will be One.
---Yochanan on 6/26/09


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Jesus chose who would write the accounts we call the New Testament, The word Apostle means
one who is sent, You could use the word Angel in it's place, People make these ideas in their minds by personal definition of words that make the words appear to have a different meaning than they originally had when they were used. Any messenger that is sent by another is an apostle it is not an office, The
importance of the apostle is by the authority that is given from the sender. Jesus gave Peter more Authority than the other twelve but he did not use it. He gave Paul Authority over the gentiles , because no other Apostle would take the gentile ministry, He had no authority in the Jewish church.
---exzucuh on 6/26/09


Lee-I just cannot see the Apostles letting any converts keep Observing Mithra, Istar and BAAL worship since it is banned by the TANKH. Now be it, as it was...Paul's doctrines were taken different ways to hate Jews and Law..so as is it today.

I agree to disagree on some points of your presuppositions since Jewish history reflects the Bar Koba 125 AD( false messiah)revolt that kicked Jewish believers in Messiah out of Jerusalem for two years. Roman committed Genocide. They were dispersed to Babylon and other places. There was no more Temple after 70AD.

Obviously, I would not have stayed either.
---Yochanan on 6/25/09


Part 2 =Jewish beleivers would been called Gentiles at that point and have been ever since by some Jews who follow Pharassee doctines and strict tenants of Oral tradition. They would have been disowned as some are today.

Others remained in their sect and went to Babylon and Spain where the TALMUD/ MISHNA was written by the 3rd century. Therefore, today its not the same Judaism as in Ancient or Jesus time frame. They see themselves as the only Isreal left. There are the Karaites, Samaritans and other reformed groups that have their own practices.

After the 1st century many would have had to blend in other places. Therefore, even the tenants of Roman Catholicism.
---Yochanan on 6/25/09


End- No doubt many joined the Hellenist Jews who may have been apart of the Roman conversion. Some Jewish beleivers may have survived being called the Netzrim but they may or may not deny Messiah as God in the flesh. Others are Messianic/Christian like in Acts with "many denominatons like the church. Some view this type of Judaism as true Judaism.

As far as tradition and the Bible, you may want to check the origninal Septuigent and Canonization of New testement scripture. It had more books and were not called Apocrapha. In many universities, you don't study protestant denoniminational theology or discredit things with bias. You study it to find facts and how they correlate with complete bible history and archeology.
---Yochanan on 6/25/09


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//A few did keep the 1st Century model from the apostles in Asia Minor until they were forced to change by the Greco-Roman Church councils. Polycarp : Bishop and martyr who was trainind by John the Apostle was one of them.//

That reflects my view that the Apostles and their immediate successors did NOT teach Gentiles must observe laws or customs that were strictly Jewish in nature. And that would not only include the various Jewish festivals that celebrate events in Jewish history, but also the Sabbath and the Levitical dietary laws.

And does not scripture in Acts 15 confirm that Gentiles needed not be circumcised and observed the law of Moses (the Torah),circumcision being the rite of entrance into Judaism?



---Lee1538 on 6/25/09


cluny-prove their discredited. Don't make up stuff with "bias" because you can't prove your point.
---Yochanan on 6/25/09


Lee- A few did keep the 1st Century model from the apostles in Asia Minor until they were forced to change by the Greco-Roman Church councils. Polycarp : Bishop and martyr who was trainind by John the Apostle was one of them.

The issue is: what is christianization? Praying to statues, changing the ten commandments and practicing mixed Pharaseeism doctrines are hardly biblical. That is why the Protestant reformation began and is still going on..to get back to 1st century roots. "Not in Pharasee Judaism", but to make one man Jew and Gentile in Messiah.

---Yochanan on 6/25/09


Obviously, Not everyone that does tradition or commandments is coverted by the Holy Spirit. In the same respect..I think we all grow in sanctification and knowledge to leave Babylonian practices.

Since the reformation..Notice how many Christian groups fight over succession or what called Halachic (authority)in Judaism. People have murdered others for this so called authority and twisted it Charamatic and traditional mind control over the masses.

The Holy Spirit is the guide and gives authority to all that beleive on His Name Yahushua(Jesus) not any man made sectarian organization.
---Yochanan on 6/25/09


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larry - *The apostolic succession is false.

Apostolic succession was simply a claim that since a church was established by an Apostle that their teachings were derived from the Apostles.

Other churches that taught a different gospel were considered heretical on that basis. There term first was used in combating the Gnostic heresies.
---Lee1538 on 6/25/09


The apostolic succession is false.
---larry on 6/24/09


Yocha - I would hardly view observing the Christian Sabbath (Sunday) a "Constantinian model" since church historians have found the church outside of Palestine no longer observed the OT sabbath by the end of the 1st century.

In agreement with the writers of the Westminister Confessions, it becomes obvious the Apostles and their immediate successors did not teach observance of the OT sabbath. They did however, establish that tradition of communal gathering on Sundays.

As Saturday was a workday in all parts of the empire save among the Jews, and due to the fact that most of the early Christians were of lower social & economic class, it would have been totally impractical to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

---Lee1538 on 6/24/09


Yocha - *I question my Jewish & Christian friends on their traditions..and it's validity as customs made law based on scripture.

One way the church conquered the pagan world was to Christianize their various festivals, making them a focus on Christ and His church.

While it is interesting to learn of the origins of some of these traditions, they are not of today what they were during their conception.

For instance, adoration of pagan gods & godness, became occasions to honor the saints of the church.
---Lee1538 on 6/24/09


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\\ Lee-For many in the Sunday focused based Constantinian model of Christianity-Catholic and Protestant congregations mixed pagan traditions of Babylon may not seem to be a big deal and seen as Christ focused because Mithra worship appeared to mimic Christ. That's why we have to be careful what form and Christ we worship and focus on. \\

I've noticed that whenever people are asked for SPECIFICS about paganism of whatever kind in Christianity, with documentation, it's usually the same few discredited sources that are given.
---Cluny on 6/24/09


Lee-For many in the Sunday focused based Constantinian model of Christianity-Catholic and Protestant congregations mixed pagan traditions of Babylon may not seem to be a big deal and seen as Christ focused because Mithra worship appeared to mimic Christ. That's why we have to be careful what form and Christ we worship and focus on.

I don't "judge" people that keep Sunday or those that keep EASTER(ASTARE) or Christmas(Saturnalia, Mithra and Egyptian Nimrod Anti-Christ child) celebrations. I just disagree. We should really study where all this comes from and where it will lead in endtimes. For me, I keep Hannukh & Passover celebrations with the focus being Mashiach fullfilled.
---Yochanan on 6/24/09


Part 2: I don't think many people really understand what those pagan celebrations originally were and how they ensnared our ancestors Isreal.

Paul warns the church in 2 Corinthians 6:15. Even Tertillian 160 to 220 AD warned the early church about those specific pagan festivals and was shocked to find beleivers started keeping them.

I can certainly see His mercy on people as they are practicing mixed traditions from their forefathers. Lee, surely in that Day..Jerimaih 16:19.



I question my Jewish & Christian friends on their traditions..and it's validity as customs made law based on scripture.
---Yochanan on 6/24/09


Yocha - the book by Barna & Viola looks like a book worth reading. It is endorsed by some from prominent and reputable instituions.

However, while we would question much of what is found in churches today, they reflect the traditions of the culture from which they grew.

And not everything pagan is necessarily wrong. yes, we can still celebrate Christmas and Easter if Christ has become the focus.
---Lee1538 on 6/24/09


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Funny. I know where you are coming from. You can find such a course in many "non-biased" Chrisitan colleges and seminaries..there is also Chrisitan history courses.

Denominational perspectives tend to blur the issues like the pharasees and saducees views that obscured the Atonement & circumcison teachings from the Law. it's why they missed the Messiah and His Good News.

Many Christians have traditions but they do not know where they come from.

*I would also suggest a bible archeaolgy course and travel. The Holy Spirit should be guide in all our conclusions not the mentors.

A good book to read is Pagan Christianity by Barna and Viola. They are pretty straight with everyone on this issue.
---Yochanan on 6/23/09


*Suggest a full graduate study course "without bias" to culture and religious traditions so that the body of Messiah will follow the Holy Spirit and not mixed pagan tradition.

On what planet would you find such a study course? It is really impossible to separate the culture and its traditions from the teachings and understandings of any faith.

Usually those that would promote this fail to realize that their teachings are influenced by the own mentors deeply imbedded in their own religious traditions.
---Lee1538 on 6/22/09


Suggest a full graduate study course "without bias" to culture and religious traditions so that the body of Messiah will follow the Holy Spirit and not mixed pagan tradition.

There are alot of historical spin found in Christian history books. We have to be careful to read other historical facts,not just the spin.

No doubt many church fathers started out as good men with biblical intentions, but Constainian mixed pagan system had christian and Jewish blood on heir hands.
---Yochanan on 6/22/09


Apostolic succession was simply the belief that since some churches were founded by the Apostles that they possessed their teaching and thus the truth concerning the gospel. Those that differed were considered to be heretical.

As for bishops in the early church, some were true contentors for the faith, such as Athanasius (bishop of Alexandria) who defined and defended the concept of the trinity against the Arians.

Many other bishops such as Augustine, the Capadocian fathers, Ambrose, etc. laid much of the foundation of how we view Christian doctrine today.

Suggest you read the History of Christian Thought by Jonathan Hill.
---Lee1538 on 6/20/09


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History shows that the Apostolic faith was taken over in a hostile way by mixed pagan philospher/religionists "Bishops" who jockied for power under Constantines Roman regime and New world Order Nimrod plan called universalism etc.

Those Bishop lead Church councils were like curtains that went down and a different belief system came out when the curtain went back up...that was "less Jewish" in it's roots of understanding the scriptures.

Many books were not put in the cannon like the book of Yasher, Enoch & many others that coresponded to basic idea of the Gospel and endtimes.

The only Apostolic succession is the Holy Spirit in His Set Apart people. Not any organization or man.....
---Yochanan on 6/20/09


cluny History channel is always wrong when it contradicts someones preconceived ideas. they will film experts and scientists and then someone with a pedigree degree will say They are wrong. scriptures indeed have been shosen upon their.
uniformity
and upon their realibility. as example some of the apocryphical books became apocryphic just because the writer "lied" about who he was. they would use especially one of the apostles name claiming it to be a lost book refound. this ly alone was sufficient to disqualify the canonicity of the book.
---andy3996 on 6/20/09


\\The History International channel has had some very good shows on why certain books that many accepted on tradition were not included in the Bible. The Men who looked at the bible. Choose books written by the Apostles or the Brothers of JESUS. They choose books that agreed with all the bible and did not contridict each other.

That is not just a tradition but a reasoned systamtic approach. There are some excellent books on the topic if you need them.\\

You actually think that's what happened, Samuel?

I know a bit about Church History, and I've noticed that the History Channel is usually wrong on it.
---Cluny on 6/19/09


Samuel, the job of a general overseer or bishop in those smaller protestant denominations is not for people to follow them. and yes, the apostolic succession is misused, or misenterpreted by those two denominations you named, especially the latter days who usurp maconic authoritie and primacy claimed by the RCC is way out of bounds (since the RCC can not claim primacy the armenic and palestinian church are much older). however that does not make apostolic succession completally void. yet apostolic succession should never been seen in the traditional way as well.
---andy3996 on 6/19/09


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\\
Cluny, I like your screen name alluding to monastic reform.\\

Actually, it's the name of my calico kitten.

However, HER name....
---Cluny on 6/17/09


Samuel, what authority do you have for what's in the Bible to start with OTHER than tradition?

Just where did you think it came from, anyway? Cluny

The History International channel has had some very good shows on why certain books that many accepted on tradition were not included in the Bible. The Men who looked at the bible. Choose books written by the Apostles or the Brothers of JESUS. They choose books that agreed with all the bible and did not contridict each other.

That is not just a tradition but a reasoned systamtic approach. There are some excellent books on the topic if you need them.
---Samuel on 6/17/09


Cluny, I like your screen name alluding to monastic reform. You are right, scripture is simply church tradition in writing, just as the Mishna in Judaism is to the Torah. The Karaite Jews are to Protestant Christians what Orthodox Jews are to Catholics. Who is right in either tradition will always be a matter of opinion.
---eric1968 on 6/17/09


"If one of the requirements that the Apostles used to replace Judas (Act 1:21-23) was for the person to be present with the other Apostles from the beginning .... "

This was for the choosing of another DISCIPLE, not an apostle.

Apostles came later, and included for example Luke, Paul & Timothy and others.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/16/09


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If one of the requirements that the Apostles used to replace Judas (Act 1:21-23) was for the person to be present with the other Apostles from the beginning, how can apostolic succession continue beyond those present during Christ's ministry according to Peter in Acts? Or for that matter how can anyone call themselves an Apostle today based on this Biblical principle?
---Lance on 6/16/09


Even though the position is misused often, it doesn't mean there are no true ones. I'd like someone to show me Scripture that Apostleship or any other of the 5 ministry gifts are no longer in effect for the edifying of the church.
---john on 6/16/09


\\ apostolic succession is used by some churches to say they are right even though they have put tradition above scripture as the final authority on what is truth. \\

Samuel, what authority do you have for what's in the Bible to start with OTHER than tradition?

There wasn't a voice from Heaven.

There's not a LIST in any of the books about what's canonical.

It wasn't found in a box in the woods already written, like a book for morons.

Just where did you think it came from, anyway?
---Cluny on 6/16/09


apostolic succession is used by some churches to say they are right even though they have put tradition above scripture as the final authority on what is truth.

Two of the main churches that teach Apostolic succession are the Latter day Saints or the Mormons and the Roman Catholic Church.

It is true that there are many Protestant churches especially if you count all the little subgroups which follow a single leader. But that is due to Biblical ignorance.
---Samuel on 6/16/09


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Apostolic Succession is true whether you believe it or not.

And the Roman Catholic church is not the only one that has bishops of the Apostolic Succession. All the Eastern Churches to.
---Cluny on 6/16/09


Barnabus was an Apostle according to Act 14:14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out.
Also the church has Apostles for the building of the church.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some, prophets, and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
---john on 6/15/09


Maybe the idea of apostolic succession is misguided, but without it the Catholic Church would not survived long enough for Luther to be able to rebel against it and create his new, purified version of Christianity which is now divided into thousands of competing sects.
---eric1968 on 6/15/09


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