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The Father's Knowledge

Did Christ possess all of the knowledge that the Father had while on earth?

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 ---scott on 6/24/09
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Scott, you and all those who oppose the deity of Christ cannot convince anyone who believes by faith in a triune God. Now you can challenge any passage by using other passages as you do as so many others through history have. It is nothing new. The concept of monarchianism, modalistic monarchianism, is what is linked to an old pantheism, which was popular in both gnosticism and Neo-platonism. The heretic Sabellius argued for this view.
Another view was by the heretic Arius, Dynamic monarchianism is linked to him. He quesioned Christ begotten. In the fifth century a new heretic attack the deity of Christ with what is called Monophysite, this was by the heretic Eutyches, and Nestoious. So you see, nothing you say is anything new.
---Mark_V. on 7/4/09

Scott, great answer to Zach on 6/29/09. In answer to your question, of course not. All things are of the Father.
All Jesus has is given Him of the Father.
Mal 3:6 - I [am] the LORD, I change not..
Isa 42:8 - I [am] the LORD: that [is] My name: and 'My glory' will I not give to another...
Yet it is written:
Mat 16:27 - The Son of man shall come in the 'glory of His Father' with His angels...
Mat 25:31 - The Son of man shall come in 'His glory', and all the holy angels with him, then shall He sit upon the throne of 'His glory':
Whose glory is it? How does Jesus have it?
The answer of course is Jhn 17:5 "...glorify thou Me 'with thine own self' with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."
---joseph on 7/4/09

Seems the answer to the original question is that Christ, while on earth, did not know all that the Almighty (YHWH/Jehovah) knew.

Even in a glorified, resurrected position, our beautiful messiah, Christ Jesus, Lord and redeemer, didn't possess all of the knowledge that YHWH/Jehovah possessed. (Rev 1:1)

No clear explanation has been provided as to why Christ (if the Almighty himself) had selective memory. Why sometimes he had His Almighty 'mental faculties' and other times he didn't know what the Father knew (like the day and hour).

Our everlasting lives are based on faith in Jesus Christ, the long awaited messiah, but he is simply not the same person as the Almighty God, Jehovah, that sent him for our benefit. (John 3:16).
---scott on 7/4/09

David on the contrary John 1:3 does say everything was made through Him, that 'without him nothing was made that has been made.'

Therefore He is the creator,as confirmed by Colossians 1:16 'For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities, all things were created by him and for him.'

As He created all created things He cannot, by definition, be a created being.

In Zech. 12:1 YHVH is Creator while in John and Colossians Jesus is Creator. Is there a contradiction? Is Eric right that the Bible is full or errors?

Isn't it interesting, and pertinent to you, as a Jehovah's Witness that 'Jehovah' is not found in the Bible?
---Warwick on 7/4/09

To those who claim the nature of God is incomprehensible are deceiving themselves.

(Janze 7/3/09- 'human beings are incapable of comprehending, to any reasonable degree, the nature of God.')

Janze is demonstrating precisely what the trinity is designed to do- to blind peoples understanding of the nature of God. This is the 'trinity trap'. Trinitarians are locked into this belief where they are unable to consider any alternative other than their beloved trinity dogma. Trinitarians are unable to 'think outside the trinity box'.

Thankfully, many do. I personally have assisted many to look outside the 'trinity box', and they soon have the nature of the True God revealed to them. It's like a veil being lifted from their eyes.
---David8318 on 7/4/09

When we do not understand an issue, we are intuitively inclined to see the problem outside of ourselves.

Human beings may be able to recognize and identify elements of the character of God, and thereby, are capable of deterining whether certain words and action are in harmony with His Character.

However, human beings are incapable of comprehending, to any reasonable degree, the nature of God. So, whether the doctrine of the Trinity is Biblical or not, the Believer has the privileged opportunity to live his life in a manner that is consistent with the ackowledgement and acceptance of the Grace of God. In other words, the Believer should live his life governed by the Spirit of God and guided by the Principles of Grace.
---Janze on 7/3/09


Titles or names that have been scripturally assigned to more than one person does not automatically make them the same person. Unless you are willing to say that:

Moses, the angels and other men are the Almighty because they are referred to as God (Ex 7:1, Psalms 8:5/Heb 2:7, John 10:34,35, Ps 82:1-6, 1 Cor 8:5)

Certain men are logically the Almighty because they are called "Savior." (2 Kings 13:5, Neh 9:27, Obed 21, Judges 6:14, Is 43:10)

And anyone referred to as "Father" is by connection the Almighty.

"They [the Jews] answered and said unto him [Jesus], Abraham is our Father." John 8:39-41

Etc., etc., etc.
---scott on 7/3/09

Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

(Ruben 7/1/09- 'I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,... "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me.')

Ruben tells me to 'Read on'. Well the verses after Rev.1:8 most certainly DO NOT state that which Neo-Platonist Ruben would like us to believe. The 'son of man' does not state he is 'the Alpha and the Omega' in the verses before or after 1:8. This is a shocking, flagrant but expected abuse of scripture by a Neo-Platonist forcing untruth into the holy text.
---David8318 on 7/3/09


You raise an interesting point regarding attacking the Deity of Christ, something not addressed before.

If the trinity doctrine were true then lowering Christ from his position as "Almighty God" would be unthinkable.

But if it's not true then, in reality, this becomes an attack on the absolute sovereignty of Jehovah. Frightfully presumptuous.

"Stop being deceived, God is not to be ridiculed [mocked KJV]. A person harvests whatever he plants" Gal 6:7 ISV

"Will it be good for you to be searched out by him, have you thought that he may be guided into error like a man?" Job 13:9- Bible in Basic English
---scott on 7/3/09

Jesus, the Lord: Phil 2:11, 1Tim 6:15, Rev 17:14, Eph 4:5, 1Cor 8:6
Jesus, the Father: Isa 9:6
Jesus, The God: Isa 9:6, 1Tim 1:1, Tit 2:3, Joh 20:28
Jesus, Our Saviour: 2Pet 1:1, Tit 1:4
God, Our Saviour: Jud 1:25, Tit 3:4, Luke 1:47, Hos 13:4
Jesus, the Light: Rev 21:23, Joh 8:12, Joh 12:35, Joh 1:9
God, the Light: Isa 60:19, 1Joh 1:5, Ps 27:1
Jesus, The King: Joh 12:13, 1Tim 6:15, Rev 19:16
God, the King: Psa 5:2, 47:7, 74:12, 95:3, Jer 10:10
Jesus, the Rock: 1Cor 10:4, Rom 9:33
God, the Rock: Deu 32:4, 1Sam 2:2, Psa 18:31, Isa 17:10
Jesus, the First and the Last: Rev 1:11+17, Rev 2:8, Rev 22:13
God, the First and the Last: Isa 41:4, Isa 44:6, Isa 48:12, Rev 1:8, Rev 21:6
Anyone like to share more?
---MIchael on 7/3/09

Samuel- Babylon worshipped their gods in groups of three's, ie. Triune gods. You can see this in their worship of 'Sin, Shamash and Ishtar'.

Modern day trinitarians are unable to worship the 'God' of the Bible as a triune God because the Bible specifically refers to God as 'one God'. (Deut.6:4)

This is where Plato's philosophy is helpful to trinitarians because Platonism enables trinitarians to reconcile the irreconcilable -to make a threefold God appear like one God. By philosophical reasoning they claim that three persons could be one God while retaining their individuality!

Neo-Platonic trinitarians will say "it's a METAPHYSICAL thing. Jesus is both 'fully God and fully man'". This is Neo-Platonism.
---David8318 on 7/3/09

Samuel- "Scripture and human minds"

There is no biblical expression that states that there are three Gods in one, let alone any inspired explanation of this doctrine as we find, for example, with Paul's comprehensive explanation of the resurrection (nearly the entire 15th chapter of 1 Cor.) (Romans 4- Salvation by faith).

This would have been the single most difficult concept for 1st century Jewish/Christian converts to understand with centuries of strict monotheism behind them.

Would a God of love not have this carefully explained like other (comparatively less weighty) issues of faith. Especially since the Athanasian Creed (centuries later) would state that their everlasting lives were dependent on believing it?
---scott on 7/3/09

The Doctrine of the Trinity is based on Scripture and human minds trying to understand GOD. It is the best way we can say it. It has nothing to do with Plato who did not live during the time that christianity. True some of his words are used by the Bible was still written by Jews.

Some because they do not understand try to come up with reasons they are right. Instead of letting each person be responsible to GOD. Many people seem to think that correct doctrine save us. But that thought is not found in Scripture. Christians will be known by their love. Not by how they put others done and call then children of satan.
---Samuel on 7/3/09

Jesus Christ is not the Creator. John 1:3 does not call Jesus Creator. (Warwick 7/1/09- 'Zech. 12:1 calls Jehovah Creator. John 1:3 calls Jesus Creator.')

Neo-Platonist Warwick is twisting scripture again. He's been sitting in his untruth for so long, he can no longer read what is actually written.

Zech.12:10 is not saying Jehovah is the one being pierced, but rather Jehovah 'mourneth for his only SON... for his firstborn', the Messiah prophesied in 12:10 who appeared as Jesus, the SON of GOD, the one who was 'pierced'.

Satan's Neo-Platonic 'trinity' teaching blinds the likes of Warwick to the thought carrying sections of important Messianic prophesies in verses such as Zech.12:10. (2 Cor.4:4)
---David8318 on 7/3/09

Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

(Warwick 7/1/09- 'Rev. 22:12,13 Jesus says 'Behold I am coming soon! ... I am the Alpha & the Omega,') No, Jesus does not say this and is again a Neo-Platonic, trinitarian false teaching.

Application of 'the Alpha and the Omega' at (22:12,13) is not to Jesus, but to Jehovah.

Jesus is described later as 'the bright morning star', in 22:16.

At Re.21:6,7 those who are 'conquering' are God's 'sons'. However, Jesus refers to these 'conquerors' as his BROTHERS. (Mt.25:34-40).

So, Neo-Platonists will have you believe (if Jesus is the 'Alpha & the Omega'- 21:6) that the 'Son' Jesus, is also Father to his brothers. Confusion + contradiction = 'Mystery trinity'.
---David8318 on 7/3/09

John 14:28 reads '.the Father is greater than I.'

The Athanasian creed affirms 'Christ is equal to the Father as touching his Godhead and inferior to the Father as touching his manhood.'-fully God, fully man!

Note also Jesus used greater (Gk.meizon) not better (kreitton) as in the President of the US is greater than Scott, not better.

In Hebrews 1:4 better (kreitton) is used which shows Jesus is not just positionally higher than angels but higher in His very nature. Jesus never said the Father was better than Him. But that in His incarnation, He was positionally lower, not lower in nature.

Jesu Christo
Hermoso sin igual
Padre para siempre
Eterno Dios.
---Warwick on 7/2/09

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Scott in John 10:29,30 Jesus says 'My greater than all' then immediately says 'I and the father are one.' God is His Father and He and the Father are one-'the Jews' accuse Him of blasphemy..'because you a mere man claim to be God. Jeus didn't reject their accusation because He was claiming to be God!

Please don't bring up Jesus statement 'I have said you are gods' quoting Psalm 82:6,7 "I said, 'you are gods,you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like mere (where have we seen 'mere'?) men, you will fall like every other ruler.' 'gods' means rulers or judges, humans who acted as God's representatives, not God.

Jesus was a master at word-play!
---Warwick on 7/2/09

Bobby3 said "Hierarchy within the Godhead not a problem for trinitarians."

This is not true for all trinitarians unless you change the definition of "hierarchy" from its fundamental meaning which is linguistically a system of levels.

A system of persons or things ranked one above another.

This theological concession (based on the unavoidable scriptural testimony that places Christ in a secondary position ("The Father is greater than I") makes it challenging to then argue equality and that "they are not three but one" when this places the "persons" of the trinity (eternally) in ontologically different positions.

Ahh yes, the grand mystery.
---scott on 7/2/09

David Zech. 12:1 calls Jehovah Creator. John 1:3 calls Jesus Creator. Therefore Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same God. BTW isn't it interesting that you keep going on about 'trinity' not being in Scripture when 'Jehovah' does not appear either!

As Regards Zech. 12:10 the text is quoting Almighty God who says 'they will look on me, the one they pierced.'-makes sense if Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same, senseless otherwise!

Rev. 22:12,13 Jesus says 'Behold I am coming soon! ... I am the Alpha & the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.' As You agree, the Rev. 1:8 quote is Almighty God calling Himself the Alpha and the Omega! Jesus is therefore equating Himself with Almighty God!
---Warwick on 7/1/09

As David has raised the matter of the Holy Spirit is is interesting to consider the word blasphemy which the Holman Bible dictionary defines as 'an attitude of disrespect that finds expression in an act directed against the character of God.'

Considering this read Matthew 12:31 or Mark 3:29 where Jesus says blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

Jesus obviously believed the Holy Spirit was an individual and God. Therefore The Holy Spirit is God.

Be careful what you say about the Holy Spirit, very careful!
---Warwick on 7/1/09

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DavidA, when speaking about the deity of Christ I find it hard to explain in as little space as possible we have. I can go on to say a lot of stuff just like you and we would get nowhere. When passages are read in context it does take time. The deity of Christ has been attacked all through History. The incarnation the resurrection, all those points take a lot to explain when someone is willing to listen. I do not convince anyone or make anyone believe what I believe, that can only be done by the Spirit. I have read what all the council's fought about at Antioch Nicea and Chalcedon. The heretics like Sabellius, Arius, Eutyches, and Nestorious. So you are not the first to Attack the deity of Christ. There will always be people doing that.
---MarkV. on 7/1/09

Bobby3 "God's word makes no statement...I disagree."

Where exactly is this statement in God's word?

Inference is far different than an inspired statement.

The missing article before "theos" in John 1:1c accounts for some 40 translators (or committees) rendering the verse with a qualitative meaning like "The word was divine," "Godlike," even "a god."

Php 2:6-7- See below, and:

"His oneness with the Father does not mean absolute identity of being. Although the Son of God...was in "the form of God," he resisted the temptation to be equal with God." New International Dictionary of NT Theology Vol.2, p.80.
---scott on 7/1/09

Jehovah does not call himself 'the Alpha and the Omega' at Isaiah 44:6.

(Warwick on 6/29/09: 'Jehovah calls Himself 'the Alpha & the Omega'-Isaiah 44:6, Rev. 1:8.') This is a Neo-platonist trinitarian twisting scripture.

When 'First and Last' is mentioned regarding Jesus at Rev.1:17, it is with definite limitations, relative to the matter of Jesus' death and resurrection- verse 18. Christ was the first one raised in the first resurrection, and the last one that will be raised directly by Jehovah. When 'First and Last' is again applied to Jesus, at 2:8, again it is with respect to death and resurrection.

But when it speaks of Jehovah at Isaiah 44:6 no limitation is set on the meaning. Almighty God YHWH cannot die.
---David8318 on 7/1/09

Jesus is referred to at Rev.1:7 as coming with the clouds. Just because 1:7 refers to Jesus, doesn't mean 1:8 refers to Jesus as well. 1:7 ends with 'Yes, Amen', an appropriate conclusion of thought. 1:8 then introduces the reader to 'the Almighty' (New American Bible), as 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

---David8318 on 7/1/09

David don't stop there read more:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,... "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...12And I turned to see the voice that spake with me....13And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,
---Ruben on 7/1/09

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The opening verses of John's gospel make it quite clear that Jesus is God.

When Jesus said "I and the Father are one" He clearly idicated two things ... that He was God, and that He was in some way distinct from the Father.

Seemingly contradictory? WEll, as Paul told us, now we can only see though a glass darkly, but in due course we will see perfectly, and will be able to understand this mystery
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/1/09

MarkV "...Christ was the Son always. He did not become the Son when He was born...."

You make a compelling argument. Please don't let the natural momentum in this argument blind you from something else wrapped up in this awesome mystery. When Jesus was baptized the HS referenced Psalm 2. "You are my son, today I have become your father". That day was the day he submitted and the spirit came down on him like a dove. That day is today for us. When we submit to God, he fathers us. Don't take this as an attack on your theology. God is inviting us into a living relationship in which he fathers us and that, IMO is not about the 'parts' of God or how they relate to each other but how God intends to relate to us.
---DavidA on 7/1/09

Jesus is not the 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

Jesus is referred to at Rev.1:7 as coming with the clouds. Just because 1:7 refers to Jesus, doesn't mean 1:8 refers to Jesus as well. 1:7 ends with 'Yes, Amen', an appropriate conclusion of thought. 1:8 then introduces the reader to 'the Almighty' (New American Bible), as 'the Alpha and the Omega'.

To arrive at the conclusion from these verses that Jesus is the 'Almighty God', one would need to have preconceived trinity views. The word 'trinity' is not mentioned neither is the holy spirit given the title 'the Alpha and the Omega'.
---David8318 on 7/1/09

Neo-Platonist trinitarians are unable to comprehend scriptural references regarding the Almighty, and to his son Jesus Christ. For example, Warwick writes, 'Zech. 12:10 God Almighty is the one pierced'. (6/29/09)

Zech 12:10 is a prophetic reference to Christ being 'pierced' and killed on the torture stake, 'as one mourneth for his only son... for his firstborn' (Zech.12:10 Kj). Jesus Christ, that 'son' & 'firstborn' of God (Zech.12:10) comes 'with the clouds' at Rev.1:7 as the one who was 'pierced'.

No contradiction, no blasphemy. On the other hand, the Neo-Platonist mantra, Jesus is 'fully God and fully man' is a contradiction, completely unscriptural and emanates from false Hellenic teaching.
---David8318 on 7/1/09

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Scott you wrote 'At John 3:13 Christ had the Almighty's thoughts but at Mark 13:32 he didn't?'

John 3:13-Jesus says only He has gone into heaven.

Mark 13:32-Jesus says only the Father knows exactly when Jesus' return will occur.

You pose these verses as though there is some contradiction or problem. You claim John 3:13 shows 'Christ had the Almighty's thoughts.' Where does it say that?

By wondering 'What percentage of the Almighty thought process did Christ retain while on earth? 50%?', you show you have a man-centred intellectual view of Scripture and God. Scripture is often difficult to follow even with the Holy Spirit's help. Obviously opaque to one who attempts understanding by human intellect.
---Warwick on 6/30/09

Strongaxe, I completely agree with you. I also agree after studying the passages of Jesus with Bobby 3. Those were good examples.
Let's be clear about the topic of Jesus, there is many places in Scripture where anyone can get a passage and turn it against another in the topic of Jesus, since He was the only One who came to Sacrifice Himself, for the sin of the world, who is also God in Spirit. The early church had so many heries attacking the deity of God.
---MarkV. on 6/30/09


Now that Jesus has ascended to heaven, it is likely that he knows everything that the Father knows. But that is not the question here. The blog topic is "did Christ possess all of the knowledge that the Father had while on earth?", and this shows at least one thing that the Father knew, but Jesus admittedly did not.
---StrongAxe on 6/30/09

Mark E/Warwick, great answers both of you. I tried to explain without much Scripture since it takes a lot to grab every passage that pertains to Christ. I don't find it difficult to understand that God came in the flesh. But that is because I believe that Christ is of the Godhead. I guess as long as others believe differently they will always find some passage to help them but if truth be told, other passages will conflict with theirs.
---MarkV. on 6/30/09

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I like and agreed with the answer given by---Mark_Eaton.
---mima on 6/30/09

scott: Thanks for the response to my question.

"1. God's word makes no statement..."

I disagree. Jn 1:1,14 and Php 2:6-7 both strongly indicate a dual nature. Christ, according to John, 'was God' and 'became flesh'. Paul says Christ was 'in the form of God' and 'took upon him the form of a servant'. Given this data, the reader has a few options to consider, I suppose, regarding the Incarnation. (1) Christ maintained two distinct natures, one divine and one human. (2) Christ became a some sort of hybrid being that was neither divine nor human but a mixture of the two. (3) His taking on flesh meant that a human nature replaced His divine one. Which do you prefer?
---Bobby3 on 6/30/09

scott: "2a. Many verses that show Christ..."

The concept of a hierarchy within the Godhead is not a problem for the trinitarian. The verse you cite (1Co 11:3) illustrates why. Paul mentions that 'the head of the woman is the man'. Surely Paul did not mean to communicate that a woman is less human than (or unequal to) a man. Therefore, given this, such a verse does not demonstrate that Christ is less 'God' than the Father is. Rather, it points to a sort of chain of command.

"2b. Rev 1:1..."

Given the above, what can we say about Rev 1:1? Did the Father reveal to Christ what Christ previously was unaware of? Or does the verse mean that the Father instructed Christ to deliver this revelation to John?
---Bobby3 on 6/30/09

Scott, you gave John 3:13 does not say Jesus had the Almighty's thoughs. It only says He was the only One to ascended to heaven who came down from heaven.
Maybe what you forget is that Christ was the Son always. He did not become the Son when He was born in His incarnated human state. He has always been the Son. In His incarnated state, He was like us in human form. He had to be in order to be the perfect sacrifice. He also could have sinned but never did as a human. All that was ask of Him from the Father He did in the human stated as an obedient human. In Spirit He was always God. At no time was He never God in Spirit.
---MarkV. on 6/30/09

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Yes, but let me qualify that.

Everyone has quoted the verse (and its parallels) when Jesus said, "only the Father knows, not even the Son knows". I truly believe at THAT time Jesus did not know. Everything else I believe Jesus did know. And now, He knows the day.

Col. 1:19 says "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him". This was Jesus state before He came to earth and His state when He returned.

Phil 2:7 talks about Jesus being emptied. This emptying only seems to be two items, glory and omni-present. Jesus still could heal at a distance, know when Lazarus was dead at a distance, and be able to transfigure Himself to be with Moses and Elijah.
---Mark_Eaton on 6/29/09

Scott, Gods word does speak of Jesus' dual nature-fully God and fully man.

Jehovah calls Himself 'the Alpha & the Omega'-Isaiah 44:6, Rev. 1:8. Surely well aware of this Jesus claimed 'the Alpha & the Omega' for Himself, calling Himself God.

Paul calls Jesus '..our great God and Saviour.' Titus 2:13.

In Zech. 12:1 God Almighty is the Creator, however in John 1:3 Jesus is Creator. In Zech. 12:10 God Almighty is the one pierced but in Rev. 1:7 the one coming on the clouds is the one pierced! Who is coming on the clouds? Jesus, see Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26.

Is this a contradiction, did Jesus blaspheme? Only if you reject that Jesus is God.

Human nature also? See Hebrews 2:14-18.
---Warwick on 6/29/09

Scott you claimed Acts 1:6-7 and Matt 28:18 were the words of the resurrected Christ.'

I pointed out they do no such thing, but you ignored the obvious!

Now you claim I Co. 11:3 supports your case. Not so. In vs. 1 Paul says he follows Christ's example,applying what Jesus had taught while on earth, to His present situation.

Why would you use Rev.1 to support your case, it says the one pierced is coming on the clouds. Jesus was pierced, and is coming on the clouds!

However Zech. Ch. 12 says God Almighty was pierced and is coming on the clouds?

Zech. 1:1 also says Almighty God is Creator but John 1:1 says Jesus is.

No 'if', Jesus is the Almighty.
---Warwick on 6/29/09


Yes, Mark 13:32, thank you.

You said "He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes...he voluntarily restricted that Omniscience to certain things God wanted Him to know."

Where do you find any of this stated in God's word. If you can't then, with respect, this is personal opinion and theological spin.

What percentage of the Almighty thought process did Christ retain while on earth? 50%?

At John 3:13 Christ had the Almighty's thoughts but at Mark 13:32 he didn't?

When praying to himself (John 17) was he using his human thoughts to communicate with his Almighty thoughts?
---scott on 6/29/09

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MarkV Re. Philippians 2:6 and "Harpagmos"

Strong's G725

1) the act of seizing, robbery
2) a thing seized or to be seized
a) booty to deem anything a prize
b) a thing to be seized upon, to be held fast, retained

"For the divine nature was his from the first, yet he did not think to snatch at [harpagmos] equality with God." NEB

"...he did not grasp at equality with God." AT

"..he did not think that by force he should try to become equal with God." Weymouth

"No one will ever snatch [harpazo] them out of my care." John 10:28 REB

"What my Father has given one can wrest [harpazo]it from the Father." John 10:29 Complete Gospels
---scott on 6/29/09

Yes. He was God also.
---Betty on 6/29/09

zach8765 and joseph

"And Jesus came to them...saying, all authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth." Matt 28:18 ASV

"Does this mean Jesus is greater than God the Father?"

No, quite the opposite. Why did Christ posses this authority? Look at the verse again, because the Father gave it to him. Is there a verse that you can cite where the Son ever gives the Father (YHWH/Jehovah) anything that he does not already possess?

"And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." 1 Cor 15:28 ASV
---scott on 6/29/09


When I quoted Mark 13:12 (and in most other quotes I post on these blogs), I was quoting from the KJV, because that happens to be a popular and reasonably well-accepted translation. If one wants more accuracy, one needs to go directly to the Greek.

As far as whether Jesus was speaking literally or figuratively in any given case, sometimes it's clear that he is speaking figuratively ("I am the vine"), and literally at other times ("I thirst"). Sometimes it is not so clear. Unfortunately, if we are free to take EVERYTHING he said as figurative, it's possible to twist ANYTHING he said into "He didn't mean that, he meant the exact opposite".
---StrongAxe on 6/29/09

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Scott, Matt. 13:32 is talking about the parable of the Mustard Seed. I assume you meant Mark 13:32. If your point is that Jesus did not know the hour, I am in agreement with you. When Jesus spoke these words to the disciples, even He had no knowledge of the date and time of His return, although Jesus was fully God (John 1:1-14), when He became a man, He voluntarily restricted the use of certain divine attributes as I said before. (Phil. 2:6-8). He did not manifested them unless directed by the Father (John 4:34, 5:30, 6:38). He demonstrated His omniscience on several occasions (John 2:25, 3:13) but He voluntarily restrricted that Omniscience to only certain things God wanted Him to know during the days of His humanity (John 15:15).
---MarkV. on 6/29/09


Christ's temporary human nature (a premise I personally find flawed)..." 'Why?'

1. God's word makes no statement about the dual nature of Christ. This is purely trinitarian assumption.

2a. Many verses that show Christ in a secondary position to the Almighty were written years after his ascension to heaven. 1 Cor 11:3 for example (22 years later).

2b. Rev 1:1 (some 60 years later). If he is the Almighty, why did Christ need to receive the Revelation from the Father? Would he not already posses this knowledge since they are one and the same?

4. If Christ did not not know the day and hour because of his human limitations, why did the HS also not know?
---scott on 6/29/09

zach8765 (2)

The same Greek word that Jesus used (Hora) at Matt 13:32 is used many times in the NT and translated in the KJV as "Time."

See: Mat 14:15, Mat 18:1, Mar 6:35, Mar 14:41, Luk 1:10, Luk 14:17, Jhn 16:2, Jhn 16:4, Jhn 16:25, Rom 13:11, 1Th 2:17, 1Jo 2:18, Rev 14:15

"To that day or the exact time no one knows- not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matt 13:32
Weymouth New Testament

"You said "The scripture does not say that. If it read that way, I would agree with your assessment."

---scott on 6/28/09

Warwick said:

"Don't be lead astray by those who secretly belong to antiChristian cults!"

Thank you. I will most definitely be on guard. And I appreciate your
heart-felt concern.
---scott on 6/28/09

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I completely agree with Bobby 3. I believe, when we began to read to much into a passage we can never reconcile the other passages and we know that cannot be. Christ, who is from everlasting was incarnated as Jesus, the human, who had to pocess the very same things as us in the flesh. He had to be able to sin but didn't. Everything we go through, He had to go many times over. So in the flesh He was following the commands of the Father. He was obedient to the Father. Not that He didn't have the diety of the Godhead. He still did. He could have called angels to help Him while in the flesh, but didn't. While here on earth He limited His attributes. He could heal, He was Omniscience, He knew who was going to betray Him, and other things.
---MarkV. on 6/28/09

"Does this mean Jesus is greater than God the Father?
---zach8765 on 6/28/09"

Great question Zach, I am looking forward to how this question will be addressed, if at all:o)
---joseph on 6/28/09

scott: "Generally the lack of knowledge on the part of the Son is dismissed because of his temporary human nature (a premise I personally find flawed)..."

What about this premise do you find to be flawed?

And, when answering, please use those nifty highlights whenever possible. :)
---Bobby3 on 6/28/09

Scott regarding Acts 1:6,7 you are going beyond what is written. Nothing there shows Jesus did not know the answer to their question! He said it was not for them to know, i.e. none of their business..get on with being witnesses for me. Matt. 28:18 gives you no support.

It's fair to say you have a very human-centred view of reality, and Scripture. You fall for the very human idea that if we cannot understand something we cannot believe in it. Do you understand God's creative processes, how He turned bones into living people, or raised Lazarus? Do accept these by faith or reject them? Do you know why Jesus touched the man's eves twice to fully restore his sight-Mk. 8:24? If you don't does that mean it didn't happen?
---Warwick on 6/28/09

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zach8765 (1)

You said: "Since you want to take Mark 13:32 literally, you must take Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 16:28 literally also."

Why? What's the connection with the topic at hand? How are the verses related?

And: "Btw, you keep quoting that Jesus said, "I don't know (the time)". However, the scripture does not say that. If it read that way, I would agree with your assessment."

The word at Matt 13:32 is "Hora" - Strong's G5610

1. A certain definite time or season...
2. Daytime, day
3. A twelfth part, an hour
4. Any definite time, point of time, moment

---scott on 6/28/09

Those who trust God's word know Jesus was eternal God, Creator and Saviour.

Bobby and Joseph quote Phil. 2:6,7 "...Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." Pointing out He consciously made Himself a servant, limiting Himself.

God the Son was also limited now being fully man, now existing in time and able to be in only one place at a time.

This argument is simply powered by Scotts cultic belief that Jesus was spirit, or angel or a god. However Scripture, apostles, Jesus and His enemies all disagree with the cultists, saying Jesus is God.
---Warwick on 6/28/09

All authority has been given to Jesus in Heaven and on earth. And His name is above all names. Does this mean Jesus is greater than God the Father?
---zach8765 on 6/28/09

Since you want to take Mark 13:32 literally, you must take Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 16:28 literally also. How do you explain these without calling Jesus a liar or without reading into the text something that is not there? In each of these statements Jesus is making a very specific statement. Btw, you keep quoting that Jesus said, "I don't know (the time)". However, the scripture does not say that. If it read that way, I would agree with your assessment. So not to devalue the diety of Christ, I believe it must mean something different than how most are interpreting it.
---zach8765 on 6/28/09

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Zach ... The maximum speed limit in this country is 70 miles per hour.

At that speed, my car's fuel consumption is 30 miles per gallon. If I go at 80 mph, the consumption increases, and I only get 25 miles per gallon, so it is more costly.

If I say "I choose to obey the law so I adhere to the legal speed limit", I mean just that.

I do not mean "I don't want to spend more money on fuel".

When Jesus said "I do not know", He meant He did not know, not that He chose not to tell us.
---alan8566_of_uk on 6/28/09

There is a reason that christ did not possess all knowledge and that reason is consistent with the very purpose and plan of this creation. He came to demonstrate what happens when a man is obedient to and follows God. That should give us much hope. This was the pattern shown through Abraham, a template foreshadowing the means by which salvation of the world was promised and by which we become children of God. But know for sure Christ was equal with God. Just as the scripture says and has been quoted on this site, "he removed from his self his Godliness". Were he not equal with God his blood would not cancel (and replace) the blood agreement he made that is the 1st covenent (a shadow of the second one).

peace out
---DavdA on 6/27/09


1. I did comment on Acts.

2. Christ didn't know "the day and hour" because he didn't have "authority?" You do realize that in both Acts 1:6-7 and Matt 28:18 we're reading the words of the resurrected Christ. Right? Matthew's account says:

"And Jesus came to them...saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth." ASV

After his resurrection, then, Christ had "all authority" (given by the Father) and yet he still didn't have authority over the "times or seasons" in connection with the end-times or last days, only the Father possessed that. (Acts 1:6-7)

---scott on 6/27/09

"Did Christ possess all of the knowledge that the Father had while on earth?" No.

Why? I personally agree with Bobby. "...Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." Philippians 2:6-7).---Bobby3 on 6/24/09

He Humbled HImself.
---joseph on 6/27/09

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Scott you hope to convince the unsuspecting that Jesus is not God, but a spirit, or angel, or at best 'a god.' However in Deu. 5:7, 32:39 God says there is no god beside Him.

But Jesus is God-e.g. Rev. I:7 which tells us that every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him. However God Almighty applies this to Himself in Zech. 12:10! Contradiction?

In Rev. 1:8 God Almighty says He is the Alpha and the Omega while in Rev. 22:13 Jesus says He is. Contradiction?

The only conclusion, unless God Almighty & Jesus are lying, is they are one and the same. Just as Paul says in Titus 2:13 'Our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Don't be lead astray by those who secretly belong to antiChristian cults!
---Warwick on 6/27/09


In Mark 13:32, Jesus said:
"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
Note that he EXPRESSLY SAID that the Son does not know the day and the hour. So this means one of three things:
1) Jesus did NOT know the day or the hour
2) Jesus is NOT the Son
3) Jesus was lying
The first is the most commonly accepted interpretation. The other two open very nasty cans of worms. Since you believe that Jesus did, in fact, know, I am curious which can of worms you would prefer to open.
---StrongAxe on 6/27/09

Scott, you say I'm going beyond the text? I have given scripture to back up my position. Here's some more. All authority is from God (Romans 13:1) and He is the RIGHTeous judge (2 Tim 4:8). Funny how you failed to comment about Act 1:6-7 since it actually is evidence of my position. Same context as Matthew 24 and it uses the word "Authority" in the verses. "[They] asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority." (ASV)
---zach8765 on 6/26/09


Your argument is eisegetical. It goes beyond what the inspired text actually says.

Jesus does not say "No one knows that day because the Father is the only one with the RIGHT to judge anyone." Those are your words and not ones found in any Greek manuscript. There is no mention of "Right" or "Authority" in these verses, so your really attempting to get Christ's simple statement to mean something different than what it says.

And the Hebrew identifies who the "Lord" is at Zech 14:7.

"but it shall be one day which is known unto Jehovah..." ASV
---scott on 6/26/09

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I don't interpret that Jesus admitting He doesn't know something. Let Scripture interpret Scripture, Jesus is saying No one knows that day of judgment because the Father is the only one with the RIGHT to judge anyone. Since noone has the RIGHT, obviously noone in the authority chain of command would "know" the day or hour. Jesus is talking about authority not knowledge. This is backed up by Acts 1:6-7 when the disciples ask the question again. Now read Zech 14 which sounds remarkably like Matthew 24. Zech 14:7 "But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD... but it shall come to pass." Jesus' description in Matthew 24 would bring images of Zechariah 14 to a Jew of His Day.
---zach8765 on 6/26/09


If you know something and say "I am not permitted to give that information" or "no comment", you are being honest. If you say "I don't know", you are lying.

In Revelation 10:1-4, John hears the thunderclaps, but is told to seal their message, so he does so. Note that he mentions he thunderclaps - he does not omit them nor pretend to deny them.

When the Pharisees ask Jesus by what authority he preached, he asked them the same about John the Baptist. When they said they didn't know, he said that he would not tell them by what authority he preached - he didn't say "I don't know".

So when Jesus says "I don't know", I generally assume that he isn't lying about it.
---StrongAxe on 6/26/09


There isn't any reference (in the cited accounts - Matthew, Mark, Acts) to suggest that Jesus possessed this knowledge but simply withheld it.

I think you do raise an interesting point about the account in Acts. Generally the lack of knowledge on the part of the Son is dismissed because of his temporary human nature (a premise I personally find flawed), but here we read the words of the resurrected Christ.

It brings to mind Revelation 1:1 where we find the glorified Son being 'given' this information (the Revelation) by the Father.

If they are one and the same, how is it the Son didn't already posses this information or knowledge?
---scott on 6/26/09

Remember, Jesus is answering the question "What are the signs and when is it going to happen". Jesus just got done explaining the signs. If He truely did not know the day, how would He be able to give such a detailed description of the signs? Look in Acts 1:6-7. They ask Him the question again "Now are you going to restore Israel?" (1:6) Answer: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority." (1:7) Judgment is set by the Father's authority. This was asked after the Resurrection. So at this point was Jesus still suppressing His God nature? if so why? By not revealing knowledge that you are not authorized to reveal does not make you a liar.
---zach8765 on 6/26/09

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In Matthew 24:36, 25:13, and Mark 13:32, Jesus said that no man (including the Son) knows the day or hour. Now if Jesus knew but didn't want to say, he could have said so, but if he knew but said that he didn't, that would make him a liar.
---StrongAxe on 6/25/09

Personally, I think Jesus knew the day and time, however the Father did not tell Jesus to reveal that information. So being obedient to the will of the Father, Jesus said, "No one knows but the Father". There is a reference in the OT about only God knowing the time of judgments and I think the Jews of that day understood that reference. Whereas us today don't know our OT that well so we miss these subtle points.
---zach8765 on 6/25/09

Agreed, while Jesus walked the earth He didn't posess all the knowledge of the Father.

However I think that when He died and later ascended to the Father, He had all knowledge.

He returned with the Holy Spirit who imbued Him with all knowledge.
Just my humble opinion.
---NV_Barbara on 6/25/09

I would say that in His human nature, the Incarnate Logos moved step by step, second by second, relying on the Father's will and leading, and leave it at that.
---Cluny on 6/25/09

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We might be able to say that there was at least one thing Christ didn't know: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone" (Matthew 24:36). There you have it! Christ was not God! The doctrine of the Trinity is false!

But wait...

There seems to be a reason for Christ's apparent lack of knowledge...

"...Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men..." (Philippians 2:6-7).
---Bobby3 on 6/24/09

Clear scriptural evidence shows Christ did not possess all knowledge the Father had.

Matthew 24:36, "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

John 5:19, "The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative... only what he beholds the Father doing."

The Son, Jesus Christ, when he was a man on Earth did not know the 'day and hour' of his Father's coming Judgment.

It is thus obvious that the Father and His Son Jesus, are not one and the same.
---David8318 on 6/24/09

as far as I know there was only one thing that jesus did not know,and still doesn,t.That is the exact hour and day of his return.
---tom2 on 6/24/09

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