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Old Testament Irrelevant

If God and His Word (O.T. & N.T.) are the same yesterday, today, and forever, and they do not change - why do people only live by the N.T. and say that the O.T. is now done away with? Comments?

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The Old Testament was the covenant between God and the Children of Israel. It is our schoolmaster.
The New Testament is the new covenant between God and everyone in the world.
It is so simple that man has to complicate it.
---Jon on 7/13/09

Jon....it is so simple that you can add to the scripture right?? Show scripture where the new Covenant is to everyone in the world. Two or three scripture make a scriptural witness....give em. Prophets would be a nice touch. Heb 8:8, Jer 31:31
---Trav on 7/14/09


"Exodus 20:11 says in 6 days (days corresponding to the 3 periods of unknown duration and the 3 periods of time fixed by the earth rotation w.r.t the sun,the Lord made the heavens & earth."
---Lee1538 on 7/13/09

Now you are adding to scripture that which was never written or even implied. Your anti-biblical theories are of your own creation - not God's.
---jerry6593 on 7/14/09


Lee sadly 2 Peter 3:16 talks to your situation. I am aware Peter wrote about those who distorted Paul's writings. However it is relevant to your evasion of the obvious.

Regarding creation day-length God says He created light & immediately there was evening & morning, 'one day.' The definition we use to define 1 day, today-you agree.

You distort Scripture because your thinking has become unstable through accepting long-ages philosophies. You distort Scripture through this clouded lens.

We quote Scripture as we have faith in God. Conversely your pride, caused by unScriptural belief, forces you into error. I do not beleive you set out to deceive but are caught in the web of deceit, woven by others.
---Warwick on 7/13/09


I agree with everything you say. There really is no argument. It's not like one testament is "better" than the other.
The OT tells us what sin is. The NT tells us how we can overcome it.
---Donna66 on 7/13/09


Lee proposes Gods 6 days of creation (Exodus 20:11) were 3 of unknown length followed by 3 ordinary days.

So the Israelites were to work 3 unknown periods of time, then 2 24hr days, then rest the Sabbath! But when was it? No one could have known and (see Exodus 31:12-15) would have been executed for working on it.

Bizarre!

Exodus 19:11-16 God said be ready by the 3rd day...On the morning of the third day-God met them.

Genesis 1:13 says there was evening and morning-a 3rd day.'

Because of this they already knew when to be there.

God said 'abstain from sexual relations' (Ex. 19:15) so with Lee's zillions of earth rotation idea no Israelites could exist to meet with God.

Bizarre Lee!
---Warwick on 7/13/09




Warwick - *You cannot support your views by scientific testing or Scripture.

That has been my position regarding your view on this subject.

Since there is nothing in the Genesis account that the 1st 3 days had to be of 24 hour duration, all you have to base your belief on is ASSUMPTIONS.

Apparently you are contending what was handled to you on some kind of ecclesiastical platter and you believe you have to defend it despite the fact there is nothing to support your view.

You are terribly afraid that the big bad wolf of science will disprove what you base your weak and blind faith upon.
---Lee1538 on 7/13/09


The Old Testament was the covenant between God and the Children of Israel. It is our schoolmaster. The New Testament is the new covenant between God and everyone in the world. Yes the Creation in Genesis is correct and has been proven by science. The new testament provides a way for man to have forgiveness of sins where the old testament did not. It is so simple that man has to complicate it.
---Jon on 7/13/09


Jerry -*,,, until you can show either scriptural or scientific evidence that the first 3 days of creation were of 24 hour duration"

You have been shown:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth...


Exodus 20:11 says in 6 days (days corresponding to the 3 periods of unknown duration and the 3 periods of time fixed by the earth rotation w.r.t the sun,the Lord made the heavens & earth.
---Lee1538 on 7/13/09


Lee: "Warwick - until you can show either scriptural or scientific evidence that the first 3 days of creation were of 24 hour duration"

You have been shown:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth...

What is there about that scripture that even hints of "zillions" of years' creation? The intended meaning is so obvious that in order to get the evolutionary paradigm to fit, either a deceitful god wrote it or a twisted mind interpreted it.

Why is it that you closet darwinists like to mess about on Christian websites?
---jerry6593 on 7/13/09


Lee 1 Peter 3:15-..Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope you have..'-faith firmly planted in historic reality, the antithesis of blind faith.

You place mens opinions above Scripture, making yourself willfully ignorant. This is why you deceitfully, repeatedly, reject Scripture. Colossians 2:8 speaks to your position.

You cannot support your views by scientific testing or Scripture.

Remember Jesus said man was made at the beginning of creation, that in which we live. You claim He said man was made at the beginning of creation week, making Jesus either liar or fool. By your own words you demonstrate little faith even in Jesus our Creator and Redeemer.
---Warwick on 7/13/09




Warwick - until you can show either scriptural or scientific evidence that the first 3 days of creation were of 24 hour duration, there is no way that I can accept your assertion of blind faith.

As only God was there and He is not limited by man's concept of time, you truly have to believe in a god that is not timeless.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


Lee you have it backwards.

You write 'Your strange idea is that the 1st 3 days were of 24 hour duration can be nothing less than an ASSUMPTION because the record says nothing of the sort.'

In the real world nothing in OT or NT backs up your ideas. This is why you give no Scriptural references to support your ideas. There aren't any!

Your ideas aren't Scriptural, but are the musings of falible, sinful men, who were not there. God was!

Conversely those here who trust God, those of faith, have repeatedly supplied more than adequate Scriptural proof for the length of the days.

Your authority is man, and you trust Scripture only when it doesn't contradict your worldly ideas.

Not a position of faith!
---Warwick on 7/12/09


*Again and again no Scriptural support for your strange idea.

Your strange idea is that the 1st 3 days were of 24 hour duration can be nothing less than an ASSUMPTION because the record says nothing of the sort.

The concept of both 'day' and 'evening & morning' was different for the 1st 3 days than what we observe in todays world. And that is because 'evening & morning' reflected the setting & rising of the sun which was created on the 4th 'day'.
---Lee1538 on 7/12/09


Donna the point is that the NT stands upon the foundation of the OT. There could be no NT without the OT.

The NT writers based the need of forgiveness solely upon the historical reality of Adam's rebellion. That is why Jesus came, not for NT reasons.

Further as pointed out the NT writers constantly referred to the OT to establish the truth of what they were teaching. The NT is an unfolding of things promised in the OT. The NT does not stand alone.
---Warwick on 7/12/09


Lee- God specifically said the evening & the morning were the first day. He knew how to calculate & tell us differently if He had meant other than 24-hr. days.
---Betty on 7/12/09


*To comprehend God's plan we need to understand, and by faith believe both OT and NT as the NT is not complete in itself, being based upon the historical realities of the OT.

And once we are in Christ, we are complete in Him, even if our understanding of Scripture may not be complete.

1 Cor. 1:30-31 But from Him you are in Christ Jesus, who for us became wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, sanctification, and redemption,in order that, as it is written: The one who boasts must boast in the Lord.

Unfortunately there are those that hold we must believe everything that is in accordance to their interpretation of scripture.
---Lee1538 on 7/11/09


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Lee you wrote 'the record does allow for an interpretation that says the first 3 creation days may well have been of unknown duration with unknown number of earth rotations.'

Again and again no Scriptural support for your strange idea.

Where, and how does 'the record' allow for your idea?
---Warwick on 7/11/09


Warwick--
Those who have become followers of Christ without either OT or NT, could become so ONLY through the truth taught in the NEW Testament.

I've never said to ignore the Old Testament. It gives background to and fills out the meaning of the New Testament.It is as fully the Word of God as is the New Testament. Yes, Jesus referred to it frequently.

BUT the Old Testament only forshadows the Savior. It does not show the way to eternal life. Only the New Testament tells of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and what this means for sinners. No one can be saved by knowledge of the Old Testament alone.

We are blessed to have both testaments easily available. Together they promote spiritual growth.
---Donna66 on 7/11/09


Paul made the PERSONAL decision to know nothing about devotion except...

"Christ and HIM CRUCIFIED" (1 Corin. 2:2).

None of us HAS TO make the same decision, it is completely up to each of us, but a truly PERSONAL relationship is based on PERSONAL decisions....then The Lord will know that our relationship really is PERSONAL, not IDENTICAL to everyone else's.

The Lord wants to also have a personal relationship with each one of us (He "yearns jealously", James 4:5).

Have a "faith FOR FAITH" (Romans 1:17, Hebrews 11:6) and move on to a more mature relationship (Hebrews 6:1).

Verses from RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 7/11/09


Dona some people have become followers of Christ without either OT or NT. But our salvation, our walk with Christ and the works He would have us do after being forgiven are contained within Scripture.

To comprehend God's plan we need to understand, and by faith believe both OT and NT as the NT is not complete in itself, being based upon the historical realities of the OT. Jesus and the apostles constantly alluded to or quoted from it to support their teachings.

Some who reject or ignore the OT do it through ignorance but others do so because they have accepted man-made ideas of our origins which are contrary to scripture.

God gave it all to us for very good reasons.
---Warwick on 7/10/09


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Betty *The Bible was written for man, not for God. It was written in terms we could understand. Twenty-four hour days are what He meant.

Agreed, however, our understanding of God's word has grown much since the conception of the church. We are discovering new things about the Bible.

While we certain think of a day as being a 24 hour in duration, the record does allow for an interpretation that says the first 3 creation days may well have been of unknown duration with unknown number of earth rotations.
---Lee1538 on 7/10/09


Lee where did sin begin? Are you saying that the entry of sin and death into the world was not because of Adam's rebellion?

Interestingly the Holman Bible Dictionary defines sin as rebellion (p. 1505) 'Since Adam & Eve rebelled against the clear command of God sin has infected humanity like a dread malignancy.'

You are right,God gave His Son that all who believe on Him should not perish but have eternal life. Just as Adam and Eve had before they sinned. Jesus came with the Good News, to overturn the Bad News of Adam & Eve.

Why does the whole of creation groan in bondage to sin and decay Lee?

This Lee, is The Gospel, the one and only.
---Warwick on 7/10/09


Lee - you are correct, I took the radical road and responded to the question submitted by the moderator.
I believe the top of the page states... "Reply to this Blog Question"

"why do people only live by the N.T. and say that the O.T. is now done away with?"

I responded that all of God's word is appropriate for us forever and that teaching and a lack of discernment probably leads to such an errant decision to discount scripture.

If the moderator asked "should any Gentile base doctrine soley on the OT" I would have answered appropriately. Have a good weekend.
---larry on 7/10/09


Warwick - *Why did Jesus need to come? Because of Sin. What is the definition of sin? What Adam did. The only foundation for the only gospel is in the early chapters of Genesis.

I suspect that you asked these questions because you yourself really do not have an answer. But that is good.

Why did Jesus come? John 3:16, For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Gal. 4:23f But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

What is sin? It is idolatry or disbelief.
---Lee1538 on 7/10/09


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lee- God said there was evening & there was morning, the first day. After He had divided light from darkness. The Bible was written for man, not for God. It was written in terms we could understand. Twenty-four hour days are what He meant.
---Betty on 7/10/09


Indeed, scripture tells us the Old Covenant made with the Jewish nation had its faults and required replacement.
......
Secondly the New Covenant was 'NO LIKE covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of land of Egypt'. Heb. 8:9
---Lee1538 on 7/5/09

What GOD has hid most do not seem able to find....even though you allude to it in this post. Judah never made up the entire Israelite nation....in the Old or in the New.
This indoctrinated falsehood shortens everyones understanding of "Gospel" truth. More especially the preacher-teachers of it.
Heb 8:8,Jer 31:31 specifically states the covenant was made with the same group it was made with previously.
---Trav on 7/10/09


Warwick--
Let me rephrase a question I asked before.

Could a person who had only the Old Testament learn how to become a Christian and live a Christian life?

Could a person who had only the New Testament learn how to become a Christian and live a Christian life?

This is more than a theoretical question, because missionaries to isolated tribes usually cannot furnish both (at least not for many years).
---Donna66 on 7/9/09


*If these events are not literal truth, did not literally occur, then Jesus did not literally need to come and literally die in our place.

True, but while the events did occur they did not in accordance to what you would like to believe.

Again, there is nothing in the record that would tell us the 1st 3 'days' of creation were only 24 hour duration.

All you really believe is based upon what is known as an ASSUMPTION.
---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


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Lee there is only one gospel. The NT writers are crystal clear the reason Jesus came to die was because of the sin of Adam-as per 1 Corinthians 15:22 & 45.

See also Romans 5:12 'Therefore just as sin entered the world though one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned..'

vs 14 'Nevertheless death reigned from the time of Adam, to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a comand, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.'

Why did Jesus need to come? Because of Sin. What is the definition of sin? What Adam did. The only foundation for the only gospel is in the early chapters of Genesis.
---Warwick on 7/9/09


The only gospel, salvation, forgiveness, inheritance of eternal life, is based upon what God has done in Christ at the Cross, not some historical events of the early chapters of Genesis.

It would not hurt in the least if you just took more time to think about these things rather than try to prove something the record does not state.
---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


The only gospel, salvation, forgiveness, inheritance of eternal life, is based upon historical events of the early chapters of Genesis. If these events are not literal truth, did not literally occur, then Jesus did not literally need to come and literally die in our place.

1 Corinthians 15:22 says 'As in Adam all die so in Christ will all be made alive.' 15:45 ..the first man Adam became a living being, the last Adam a life-giving spirit. Which Adam isn't historical reality?

The most important doctrine is founded in Genesis. The NT is built upon the OT.

Genesis is also the foundation for marriage, why we wear clothing, why the world 'groans in bondage to sin and decay.'

Without the OT there is no NT.
---Warwick on 7/9/09


Warwick - *In English and other languages 'day' when accompanied by a number means 24hrs.

Do not dispute that, however, if you were to read the Genesis account you would notice that a 'day' was viewed by the expression 'evening & morning', not by the currect view of day that reflected the going down and rising of the sun which was not created until the 4th day.

Is your faith so very weak that you cannot admit to the truth in these matters, or are you so hung up with that interpretation you had forced down your throat by your authoritative religious mentors?
---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


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Warwick says that he does not twist scripture but he fails to realize that he superimposes his interpretation on it, thus effectively demanding others recognize his alleged authority in interpreting scripture.

While we all agree that we can be sure Jesus is correct there is virtually no reason to believe Warwick is correct.

Larry on the other hand seems to follow suit by not reading the question. I asked if there was any justification for basing any doctrine of the Christian faith on the OT alone. His reply indicates he did not read the question.
---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


Everything in the Old Testament is not done away with. See Leviticus 18, for example.
---Betty on 7/9/09


Every word written and inspired by God is relevant forever. Nothing is to be discounted ever. The 14 historical and 7 wisdom books in the OT are as every bit as salient as any other part of scripture. For with God there is no OT, and he makes no suggestion that any part of his word loses its relevency over time for Jew or Gentile.
Its silly to suggest God's word morphed into relevency after 39 chapters or during the so-called 400 silent years.
In one of the most incredible declarations in all of scripture (OT) God places his word above his own name (Psalm 138). God is speaking of his incarnate word or the magnification of his son (NT).

Its not the Old or New its all. Praise his holy name.
---larry on 7/9/09


larry - thanks but if you were to pick up any good book on Christian doctrine you would find that all basic & essential doctrines of the church is based upon what is written in the New TEstament.

While I can agree that you can find some support for these doctrines in the Old Testament, basing your beliefs totally upon an Old Covenant dispensation really makes you a Jew, still tied to the Old Sinaitic covenant.

---Lee1538 on 7/9/09


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Lee your idea has no support in Scripture, grammar, or logic.

You content yourself with repetitious, empty denial, as if repetetive denial negates reality.

In Genesis 1:3-5 God defines 'one day' as the cycle of evening (night) and morning (day). In direct contradiction of your erroneous view God describes the following 5 creation days with identical language. Therefore by Scripture, grammar and logic they are all the same length, as He confirms in Exodus 20:8-11.

In English and other languages 'day' when accompanied by a number means 24hrs.

Interestingly outside of Genesis 'day' with a number occurs 410 times and it always means an ordinary day.
---Warwick on 7/9/09


If you could translate either Old Testament or New Testament (but not both) into the language of a people who had never heard the Gospel, which would it be? Could they obtain eternal life without both Testaments? Could they live a Christian life without them both?
---Donna66 on 7/8/09


Lee, I do not twist Scripture.

In Mark 10:6 Jesus says man was made at 'the beginning of creation', obviously not saying man was made on day 1 of creation week. He knows that first hand. You make out the creator didn't know when He created! Some faith you have!

Jesus is talking of the creation as in Romans 8:19 'the whole creation has been groaning...'

The creation being that in which we live.

Jesus says man was made at the beginning of this creation, appearing on day 6. Consider that Jesus said this some 4,000 years after the beginning, or about 1,460,000 days later. Day 6 of 1,460,000 days will do me for 'the beginning', being 36/100,000ths of 1%, from the beginning!

I am sure Jesus is correct.
---Warwick on 7/8/09


Are we justified in basing any basic belief or doctrine of the Christian faith on the Old Testament alone?
---Lee1538 on 7/4/09

Yes Lee,

1. FAITH (39 BOOKS)
2. JUDGEMENT (GEN, RUTH, JUDGES)
3. PROVISION (DEUT)
4. LINEAGE (GEN 9:18-19)
4. PROMISES (DANIEL 6:16)
5. PSALMS (PRAISE)
6. WISDOM (ECCLESIATES, PROVERBS)
7. ESCATOLOGY -END TIMES (DANIEL, EZEKIAL)
8. THE COMING OF A SAVIOR (ISIAH 11:6)


Take care Lee.
---larry on 7/8/09


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*Conversely you have not given one piece of Scriptural support for your man-centered view. ... there is none.

You are refuse to admit there is virtually NOTHING in the Genesis record to determine the duration of the first 3 days of creation. What you base your belief on, is known among those that think more than once a day, as an ASSUMPION.

I am trying to understand why you are so very insistent upon your erroneous viewpoint.

Is your faith that weak or do you come from that part of the world where you are forbidden to question anything you have handed to you by the ecclesiastical (and aristocratic) authority of your church?

Or are you that old age where you simply cannot accept any challenge to your cherished beliefs?
---Lee1538 on 7/8/09


Warwick - *You have failed to answer the point that in Mark 10:6 Jesus the Creator says man was made at the beginning of creation, that in which we live.

Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of creation, God made them male and female.

The subject here is God's intention for marriage.

The Genesis account very plainly states that man was created on the 6th day, it does NOT state that they were formed on the first day. Woman was also created on the 6th day.(1:27)

You should not twist the words of Jesus to fit what you want to believe but simply let scripture say what it says.
---Lee1538 on 7/7/09


To answer the question FOOLISHNESS is the reason any believer would discount any part of scripture.
Frankly I doubt I would be a Christian if I never received any word about God's creation, his purpose for mankind, the long journey to redemption, the role of Israel, our INHERITANCE, and most importantly the steady theme from Genesis to Revelation of FAITH. All found in the so-called OT.
The heart of the suggestion of course is Satan who knows full well our knowledge of God's purpose for Israel is established in the OT. Satan's plan is to oppose Israel for he knows God's fulfillment of his chosen people signifies his permanent lockup in the pit. Ignorance is to his advantage.
---larry on 7/7/09


BTW, questioner there are over 225 references to the Old Testament in the New Testament encompassing some 350 versus in context. Besides Christ being replete throughout Isiah I can't think of anything dangerous then throwing out the OT and the 350 versus in the NT that refer to the OT.

Again, who do you really think is behind the suggestion to start "doing away" with scripture.

See James 4 re: foot in the door.
---larry on 7/7/09


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---Lee1538---

OK. you are right. Let me say that the only WRITTEN source of doctrine used by Paul was the Old Testament.
---Donna66 on 7/7/09


Warwick - *It is by faith, not mans ideas, that we trust God's word, and are saved. But you don't!

Correction! What I do not trust is your interpretation because they all too often are built upon assumptions.

Again, God is timeless and not restricted by our concept of time. Obviously you have never studied theology as this concept is found within the studies of many theologians.
---Lee1538 on 7/7/09


Lee the conclusive Scriptural proof concerning the length of the 6 days of creation has been given over and over. It is not that they are not there but that you cannot accept them. They contradict your worldly view.

Conversely you have not given one piece of Scriptural support for your man-centered view. Simply because there is none.

It is by faith, not mans ideas, that we trust God's word, and are saved. But you don't!

You have failed to answer the point that in Mark 10:6 Jesus the Creator says man was made at the beginning of creation, that in which we live. This makes good sense in a 6 24hr day creation but is wrong if the first 3 days were of longer length.

---Warwick on 7/7/09


Donna *The only source of "doctrine" Paul HAD was the Old Testament.

Not really true!

Galatians 1:11-12 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not mans gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
---Lee1538 on 7/7/09


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The Old Testament is valuable, truly the Word of God,...but it does not teach how to be saved (other than by righteous works and animal sacrifice).
It teaches a lot of spiritual truth expanded upon in the NT. But for the Christian, it can never stand alone as a source of doctrine. Donna66

Amen it cannot stand alone I totally agree for you are correct. But the OT also taught that we cannot save ourselves by works. Blood had to be shed to save us. The Bible points to the blood of JESUS. Neither stand alone both are required.
---Samuel on 7/7/09


Samuel - while the Old Testament is recognized as Scripture, it also reveals that God will establish a New Covenant with His creation that would be UNLIKE the old one He made with Israel on Mt. Sinai ( Hebrews 8:8) with Jesus being the mediator of a better covenant (7:22). Lee1538

Amen Lee we agree here. I have no problem agreeing with this point. Where I disagree is saying that the Scripture is no longer valid for doctrine or teaching or guidance for that goes against 2 Tim 3.
---Samuel on 7/7/09


The Tanakh is the only source to be used. If a person uses the Brit Chadasha then they should compare it to the Tanakh, and if the Brit Chadasha dosent add up the Tanakh should be the one used. For the Tanakh is what was preached by Joshua Ben Joseph and His Apostles.
---wayne on 7/7/09


Samuel-
The only source of "doctrine" Paul HAD was the Old Testament. Until Jesus became the perfect sacrifice, the Lamb of God, and was resurrected, the OT was sufficient by itself...for the Jew. Paul was chosen to expound the teachings of Christ.

The Old Testament is valuable, truly the Word of God,...but it does not teach how to be saved (other than by righteous works and animal sacrifice).
It teaches a lot of spiritual truth expanded upon in the NT. But for the Christian, it can never stand alone as a source of doctrine.
---Donna66 on 7/6/09


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*Lee you appear to be saying Genesis is rendered nonHistorical because we are part of the new covenant!

Not at all!!! What I am saying is that the Genesis account while true lacks the support for your assumption that the first 3 days were of 24 hour duration.

Samuel - while the Old Testament is recognized as Scripture, it also reveals that God will establish a New Covenant with His creation that would be UNLIKE the old one He made with Israel on Mt. Sinai ( Hebrews 8:8) with Jesus being the mediator of a better covenant (7:22).
---Lee1538 on 7/6/09


Paul wrote in the New Testament:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Since the words that make the wise were the Old Testament and it said to be for doctrine. That that should settle that it can be used for doctrine. When called on to settle matters in the New Testament The apostles called on the it is written to answer.
---Samuel on 7/6/09


Lee you appear to be saying Genesis is rendered nonHistorical because we are part of the new covenant! This makes no sense and does not in any way alter the fact that Jesus and the apostles always wrote about Genesis as sober historical truth.

Neither does this alter the fact the NT writers declared the historical events of the early chapters of Genesis to be the only foundation for the only gospel.

Maybe you have another foundation, another gospel. It wouldn't surprize me at all!
---Warwick on 7/6/09


Lee1538
I can think of no reason to rely on the Old Testament for doctrine. The NT says "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God". Genesis explains why. The OT demonstates it repeatedly. But we can come to faith without that Old testament knowledge.

The OT gives the "10 Commandments". But Jesus says (Mat 22:37-40)...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The OT helps us understand the NT, but the NT alone, contains all essentials of doctrine.
---Donna66 on 7/5/09


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*As explained many times Jesus and the apostles quoted from, or alluded to the first 11 chapters of Genesis 107 times and always as sober truth.

While true many ignore the fact that Christians are under the jurisdiction of the New Covenant of the church not the Old Covenant made only with Israel. Indeed, scripture tells us the Old Covenant made with the Jewish nation had its faults and required replacement.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Secondly the New Covenant was 'NO LIKE the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt'. Heb. 8:9
---Lee1538 on 7/5/09


Lee reading through the NT will show that the Good News of the Christian gospel is based solely upon the Bad News of the early chapters of Genesis. As explained many times Jesus and the apostles quoted from, or alluded to the first 11 chapters of Genesis 107 times and always as sober truth.

'As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.'
---Warwick on 7/5/09


While we may agree that *We should not neglect the Old Testament any more than we should ingnore our own history.

Are we justified in basing any basic belief or doctrine of the Christian faith on the Old Testament alone?
---Lee1538 on 7/4/09


We should not neglect the Old Testament any more than we should ingnore our own history. The Old Testamet reveals God's working from the very beginning (and before). It defines sin and describes sinful mankind. It foreshadows God's remedy for sin... from the blood on the doorposts at passover to the sprinking of blood in the temple.

We do not need the Old Testament to discover the way of Savation through Jesus Christ nor even as a guide for righteous living. Many Christians in third world countries never see an OT. But the Old Testament gives us a fuller picture of the nature of God and his ways of dealing with mankind.
---Donna66 on 7/1/09


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God is the same God of the Old Testament and New Testament. He wants us completely...our complete heart, mind, soul, and strength.

I agree with Mark Eaton here though in that God used different methods in the Old than in the New...but the basic message is the same in both the Old and New, (so we had better learn them both extremely well.)
---Anne on 7/1/09


Learning to apply it is hard and made harder by differing views on how to do it.
---Samuel on 7/1/09

Good one Sam, let the mouth of two or three witnesses confirm a (scriptural) thing. Not the differing doctrine/opinion/fallacy's.
Take the above lay it beside two or more. No problemo's.

2Tim 2:3Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
---Trav on 7/1/09


I have heard it said the OT is the NT concealed and the NT the OT revealed.
Warwick on 6/28/09

Finally, you post something that is a truth.

You have heard correctly, just do not know how to apply it.
Trav

Learning to apply it is hard and made harder by differing views on how to do it. But the understanding that this is so and that all scripture is for us 2 Timothy 3 is the best place to start.
---Samuel on 7/1/09


I have heard it said the OT is the NT concealed and the NT the OT revealed.
---Warwick on 6/28/09

Finally, you post something that is a truth.

You have heard correctly, just do not know how to apply it.
---Trav on 6/30/09


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The biggest difference between the OT and the NT is how God wanted His Word and His truth to be distributed.

In the OT, God chose a people to be His people. They were supposed to live righteously and to be spiritually attractive enough to draw the rest of the world to themselves. The only righteous people were Jews trying to make converts of Gentiles. Did not happen.

In the NT, after Jesus left, the command was given to go into all the world, taking Gods Word and truth to them. No longer trying to draw the world to the Jews, but to make converts of everyone (except Jews).
---Mark_Eaton on 6/29/09


Michael, you are correct. Every Christian needs to know why he has been forgiven. The Old Testament is part of the gospel. Who God is, who we are, where we came from, why God did certain things concerning Israel and later concerning us, how that effects us now as Gentiles, what Jesus Atonement was for, and why, and without the Old Testament you cannot have a complete gospel.
Jesus in defense and when He gave parables and talked to His disciples, He used Old Testament passages to make His point. All Scripture is Authoritive.
---MarkV. on 6/29/09


The New Testament concerns the New Covenant. The Old Covenant is done away. However, there is much to study and learn in the Old Testament. Why not study the whole book and remember that the New Testament is what you need to learn about the most.
---Betty on 6/29/09


Living after commands is the old way. God has done a new thing, and the new is so superior to the old that going back to it is described as a curse by his Apostles.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher (1John 2:27) no longer do we have commands to follow apart from what the Spirit leads us to. The command that's most important is be meek enough to be lead. (blessed are the meek) If you look to God and have his Spirit nothing else is required, in fact guys that's how the Bible got written, people being led in meekness to write what God communicated to them. You can fill you head with commands or your heart with the joy of his freedom. What does God require?

"this is my son in whom I' am well pleased, listen to him."
---Pharisee on 6/29/09


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Intresting question. I feel the answer is in the beholders own perception, I mean look at fred phelps. Speaking of fred, The works of poet Walton S. Tissot came to mind as i read this question.Namely his poem 'Fred & the Family Phelps". A few others he did broaden the thought of such perceptions ect. "Lost in the Dregs", "An Ambient Perpetual La, La" or "Assumptive Miasmatical Dogmata" All great thought provoking stuff! - Anyway good luck with that.
---Mac on 6/28/09


The OT was very relevant to jesus,and should be to all believers.there are many good lessons there for maturing.Also it is Gods word to the jewish people, and not something to be forgotten.
---tom2 on 6/28/09


The Bible is truth.. There are facts in the Bible that are history.. They are just that, time will not change them being factual or historic. There are also prophesies. Since God is all knowing, these can be taken as fact in faith. They become factual history as they are fulfilled. God doesn't change and His word doesn't change. The Bible also does not contradict itself. Any appearance of contradiction is only based on our finite knowledge, His thoughts being higher than ours. Now, when Jesus fulfilled the promises of His first coming at the cross, They were completed and now part of factual history. I hope I explained this well to the best of my finite knowledge. God bless all who seek and find Truth.
---MIchael on 6/28/09


Well Leslie, I haven't heard anyone speak of doing away with the OT of scripture. The Bible says that all scripture is given by divine inspiration of God and is useful for......The point is that the Old Testament contains scripture pointing to Salvation through Jesus. One can also learn lessons of wisdom by reading it. I think you are confused about salvation. God gave us a new covenant through the blood of Jesus but it is not a "testament" to live by. The old "Testament" was written during the old covenant that the Jewish people had with God. The OT was a time of living by the TEN COMMANDMENTS and the NT is a time of living by FAITH (in Jesus),given by God who is full of Grace.
---jody on 6/28/09


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I have heard it said the OT is the NT concealed and the NT the OT revealed.

I cannot see how anyone who knows the OT would imagine that it is irrelevant. Jesus and the apostles certainly didn't, constantly alluding to or quoting from it to reinforce whatever point they were endeavouring to make.

We also need to remember that Jesus came to overturn what Adam did, as the OT prophets said He would.'As in Adam all die, so in Christ will all be made alive' 1 Co. 15:22.

How can we understand the good news if we don't first understand what the bad news is?
---Warwick on 6/28/09


Leslie: These "people" who say this, do they profess to be Christians?
---Leon on 6/27/09


the OT has prophecy within it that has yet to be fullfilled,and many lesson to be learned within it.Also facts about the history of the jewish people,and plenty of revelation.Those who say it is no longer needed arent really following the word in its entirety.There are over 68 prophecies about jesus which he fullfilled in the OT.this alone is a great point of proof of his identity as Gods son.We live by grace through jesus ,using both.
---tom2 on 6/27/09




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