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Is There Original Sin

Do you believe in "original sin".

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 ---mima on 6/29/09
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MarkV ... I did not give scriptures because I was showing what I understood your beleifs to mean. You have not said I misunderstood what you had said, so assume that I correctly interpreted you.

I have given you some attributes of God which would appear to be in conflict with Him as the creator of evil, which your beliefs imply.

If I've misunderstood you, please tell me in what way. Tell me what things in mine of 7/16 are a wrong intrepretation of your statements. Until you do, they seem to me to accord exactly, or follow on inevitably, from your belief.

(You STILL seem to confuse God fore-knowing what will happen with God deciding what will happen)
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/19/09


AlanofUK,thanks for your help. It's interesting translators kept out"oft with child" in King James version. Big difference in having children and being "oft with child". Another word is,"And thy lusts shall pertain unto thy husband and he shall rule over thee". KJV uses desire instead of lusts,lusts and desire can denote same intimate relationship,lusts leaves no doubt what it means and implies a stronger feeling. "Desire"to hope or long for,express a wish,"lusts" means intense or unbridled physical desire or intense longing. Curse is about physical punishment but when it gets to "rule over thee",translators changed it to man with "rule",social,relationship,not physical.
---Darlene_1 on 7/19/09


Darline, Sorry but have to disagree with your statment,
"God doesn't know who will surrender to evil before they do it."
First of all God knows everything for He is Omniscient. Second, for the very reason you gave, "Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows." That is the reason. God does not change for He is Immutable. He is not like shiftying shadows changing every time man makes a decision. Only heretics in the early church like Arius and others tried to change the deity of Christ, today many try to do the same with the deity of God to justify their believes.
---MarkV. on 7/19/09


Kathr, in your rush to judge my statement you missed a blessing from God. What you say is false not because I said it was but because you try to change the truth to a lie every time you have a different purpose for answering.
Your both statements are completely false. After the six day all was "Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day." That included heaven and angels, for verse 2:1 says, "Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them," were finished." Satan fell between 2:2 to 3:1. of Genesis.
---MarkV. on 7/19/09


"they sin because they love to sin"

Do you really beleive that Mark?

Do you think that, say, Richard Dawkins, sins deliberately?

Do you think he, or any "unsaved" person thinks "Oh I love sinning, so I will sin" ?

Dawkins is a person of great morality. It's just he cannot beleive in God He does not consciencely sin because he "loves to sin"

And, your theology says that God is in control of everything, everything is as He planned it. That means God planned that man would "love to sin" ... that would make Him complicit in their sin, and in their rejection of Him.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/19/09




No way! God is innately good, created us in his image and would never damn children like that.

The bible is not a mystery. In the end, I feel that our hearts tell us what it right and true. God would not allow that kind of punishment for the innocent.
---Kristen on 7/19/09


No. The concept of OS assigns to us not only a sinful nature (that is an inborn predisposition to sin - a desire for it), but also the GUILT for the sins of our forefathers. The Bible makes it clear that I am guilty ONLY of the sins which I choose to commit of my own free will, and not those of my ancestors.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
---jerry6593 on 7/18/09


Alan, you made comments but no Scriptures. I am glad you have an opinion, but it has to reconcile to Scripture. Darline provide two passages, which I agree with both. But her opinion that God does not know who will choose evil is not Scriptural because God is Omniscience and is all knowing. When she gave the passage that God does not change that is true, for He never stops not knowing. Just so that we can make a decision. That would mean that for every person to make a decision God would stop knowing. Which strips God of His deity of Omniscience. Example: Heretics in the early church stripped Jesus of His deity when they said He was created. Here we have an all knowing God not knowing. Just not possible to strip God of His deity.
---MarkV. on 7/18/09


Alan 2: When I said I stood for God I meant just that. When people began to strip God of His nature and attributes it is wrong. When people say that genuine believers lose their salvation it too is wrong. It would be saying that God saved them "not knowing" they would sin and He would have to turn around, because He suddenly saw their sin, and take away their salvation. That is not the God of Scripture. He does not make mistakes. When people answer any passage they should first see if what they say goes against the Sovereignty of God. If it does the answer is wrong. Just think first, "a Supreme God who is all knowing, seating and waiting and not knowing if you will choose Him or not." Just not possible.
---MarkV. on 7/18/09


Darline, I am sorry to disagree with you on the statment you made about God, you said,
"God does not know who will surrender to evil." That is not the God of the Bible."
He is Omniscience. Knowing all."
and as you said, He is the Father of heavenly light who does not change like shiefting shadows, so at no time does He stop knowing so that man can make a decision. He is the same always.
Second, He knows who well surrender to evil, all of Adam's descendants. They are born with a sin nature on account of the curse that God put on mankind. So to say He does not know when it was He who set the curse on man for disobeying Him at the fall.
---MarkV. on 7/17/09




Darlene .... I've looked at the web, and I expect have found the same site as you ...

This is how Tyndale renders Genesis 3 verse 16 .... "And vnto the woman he sayd: I will suerly encrease thy sorow ad make the oft with child and with payne shalt thou be deleverd: And thy lustes shall pertayne vnto thy husbond and he shall rule the"

The words in bold, relating to the frequency of her being with child, do not appear in KJV or other trahslations that I have come across.

I am fortunate, because I have a recent Tyndale version, with modern spelling,. which makes it easier to read!
---alan8566._of_uk on 7/17/09


Miche, Before the foundations of the world no one but God was there. That He created angels is trueMarkV***


MarkV, before the foundation of the world His created angels were there. Rebellion in Heaven took place first before Adam & Eve's fall.

Satan had already fallen, bringing sin first into the universe. We do not see anywhere in the first 6 days any mention of the creation of Angels.

It was God's plan from before the foundation of the world, and because of the fall of Satan, to create a NEW Heaven and Earth where no evil could enter. Satan was allowed to enter into the old, even Eden itself. He or any evil will not be able to enter the New Heaven and Earth.
---kathr4453 on 7/17/09


Alan I told all of that to you,not because you needed me to,but because I needed to be sure I had been clear. Sometimes for lack of space I am pretty sure I'm not. That was a really interesting bit of information you got from the Tyndale Bible. I'm going to try to locate it online. I found it and its hard for me to read so it will take me a while to locate the verse you shared. Thanks.
---Darlene_1 on 7/17/09


Miche, don't you listen to what you say? Here is what you said,
Mark, Angels existed to do God's will BEFORE the world was created.
God knew man had the capacity to sin. WHY"

Miche, Before the foundations of the world no one but God was there. That He created angels is true.
You said God knew man had a capacity to sin" of course He did, He created him that way. He could have created him without the ability to sin. And He could save the whole world if He so had desired. And since He gave men the capacity to sin, He knew they would. He doesn't make them sin, they sin because they love to sin. You need to keep studying.
---Mark_V on 7/17/09


Darlene,
That is a big AMEN on your last post.
I just pray someone else learns to understand this.
---miche3754 on 7/17/09


Hello Miche, there was no enemy before the foundations of the world. He had not created His angels or even earth. Hello. No one was around.- markv

Mark, Angels existed to do God's will BEFORE the world was created.
God knew man had the capacity to sin. WHY?
Because disobedience is a choice.
When the sin happened, God immediately made provision for it. See- Genesis 3:15.
Its not humans that are predestined, its Jesus. Those who are in Christ become predestined when they accept Christ.
You don't understand this because you believe man doesn't have a choice. That God makes it for them. Thats not true. God says I set before you life and death...CHOOSE!!!
How is it you miss this?
Your doctrine is not right, that is why.
---miche3754 on 7/17/09


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Darlene ... There is no need to tell me ... I agree with you!

It is someone else that you need to convince.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/16/09


MarkV ... You still seem to confuse God knowing something will happen with Him planning for it to happen.

This is where you excessive Predestination takes you ... God has to have planned everything, and caused everything to happen.

So that means that God caused the Fall, God made Sin

So it leads you to believe that God made the thing He hates! He made people to rebel against Him. He makes people do things that He hates.

If God hates ssin, as He says, He would not make it in the first place. If He hates that we sin, as He says, He would not MAKE us sin. If He says He hates those things yet made them happen, He is a liar. And we know He is not.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/16/09


Alan of UK,reasons for what I said,James 1:13 When tempted by evil no one should say,"God is tempting me". For God cannot be tempted by evil nor does he tempt anyone. God doesn't know who will surrender to evil before they do it. That is all about free will,which simply means voluntary choice,God wants us to pick him,his way,and his will and so he gives all the chance to do that. God doesn't interfere in our making choices,he'll guide us if we ask. James 1:16,17 Don't be deceived,my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above,coming down from the Father of heavenly lights,who does not change like shifting shadows. I believe Lucifer and then humankind failed God,not he them. Humans sin when led astray by their own lusts.
---Darlene_1 on 7/16/09


"He didn't think it was possible for them to sin,"
"God is all knowing".-markv
You do realize you contradict yourself right?
God did know that its possible for man to sin.
Man was created in God's image.
God gave man FREEWILL.(not saying God sins)
He set life and death before them even in the garden. Tree of life & tree of knowledge.
You actually believe man didn't have a choice?
Do you have a choice when the enemy comes at you?
God didnt create man ignorant.
Like I said brother, you need to get your doctrine right. Either God knew or he didn't.
According to the Bible, God knows.
You also didn't give scripture stating God made some men destined for hell, either.
---miche3754 on 7/16/09


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Miche, go back and listen to what you said,
God knew from the foundation of the world that he would have to send his son. WHY? He knows the nature of HIS enemy. That the enemy will use man for evil when God created man for HIS(God's) glory."
You said He sent Jesus from the foundations of the world because He knew the nature of His enemy.
Hello Miche, there was no enemy before the foundations of the world. He had not created His angels or even earth. Hello. No one was around.

Samuel, The God I teach is the One from the Bible. You have missed Him. You need to read all the passages of God, and when you do, you will know Him.
---MarkV. on 7/16/09


Miche, when God created man, He didn't think it was possible for them to sin, He knew they would. He also knew Satan would too. Here is how you are wrong when you say something concerning events in the world, you seem to think that God is somehow finding out things as they happen. God is all knowing, He is Omnipotent, and He is Omnipresent. Nothing that happens is ever new to Him. He does not learn anything in what we call time. It is all present before His eyes. The end from the beginning. You cannot change the deity of God so that you can reconcile what you don't understand in a passage. For God never changes. He is immutable.
---MarkV. on 7/16/09


Markv, no one is screaming at you.
You speak false. Thats it. What you say doesn't line up the word of God. and when asked to prove something, you can't. You don't have your doctrine in line with God. There are holes in it.
You say that God actually made some people destined for hell because you have taken predestination and twisted it. When Kath explained to you the truth of predestination you refused the truth.
Its Christ, God predestined and those who accept Christ become predestined with him.
God knew from the foundation of the world that he would have to send his son. WHY? He knows the nature of HIS enemy. That the enemy will use man for evil when God created man for HIS(God's) glory.
---miche3754 on 7/16/09


We do not get it mark because you present a immoral hateful tyrant as your GOD. You agree with those who teach that GOD hates humans and is arbitrary and capricious. You present a god very much like some of the Greek gods. No better then the worst dictator who ever lived.

In fact the god you teach is worse then the most evil dictator in history. Most of them just killed people. Yours tortures and enjoys that he made people go to be torured for all eternity.

YOu ignore the verse's that GOD is love. I do not ignore the verse you bring up. They just are taken out of context.
---Samuel on 7/16/09


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Mark ... Foreknowledge of something bad is not the same as planning something bad.

I think you included the Fall as one of those things that God actually planned.

He made the world, "and it was good" ... and then He planned to destroy that perfection???

Yes there is a huge gap between what Darlene and you beleive. .. and Donna, and Nana, and Miche, and Warwick ... they none of them agree that God planned it all including the Fall.

So why is it only me whom you attack so sharply.

Please read my post on the "Is God cruel and mean" blog, where I try to suggest a reasonable way of treating someone with who we disagree.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/15/09


Mark, Kenneth Matthews has a clue.

'If one is disinclined to surrender to God, one is inclined to read the text in the light of our own culture.'

'Are we submitting to the picture of God in Scripture?' 'Or are we putting ourselves over Scripture and rewriting it in terms of our own preferences?'

Kenneth Matthews, Old Testament scholar at Alabamas Samford University, as quoted in Time. 4th November, 1996, p.79. Genesis Reconsidered , commenting on Genesis chapters 1-11

He is writing of those Christians who reject 6 24hr day creation etc, but establishes a principle. That being: those who do not submit to God are reinterpreting Scripture through man-made beliefs. Some are upset when their compromise is revealed!
---Warwick on 7/15/09


We are creatures of time. God is not limited as we are. Everything that appears to us as past, present, and future, is all "present to God" "He is the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity" Is. 57:15. The events which we see coming to pass in time are only the events which He appointed and set before Him from eternity. Time is not objective to God. He is above it and sees it, but it not conditioned by it. That is His nature and character. He never changes. He says, "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure" Is. 46:10. The God of Scripture.
---MarkV. on 7/15/09


Mark your wild and false accusations deserve no response, but show that you need our prayers.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/15/09


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Why is it that when I bring the right of God to do what He so desires with His creation everyone jumps up and screams bloody murder? Remarks come out that God is this and that, and He cannot do this or that. You conjure up any possible idea that come to your mind to reject who God is. I believe if most of you had first known who God is, His nature and attributes first, you would not be saying what you say. It is all in Scripture. Avoiding those passages only gets you into more trouble later in life. You cannot keep skipping the Word of God. Everytime Jesus spoke (God's own words) so many didn't believe. Why? Because they were not His children. John 10:26. Only His children hear and believe. Why can you not get it?
---MarkV. on 7/15/09


Warwick ... I should have said "God did not intend them to reproduce very fast" or "as fast as we reproduce today"

What I read in the Tyndale translation (which preceded the KJV) was "I will make thee oft with child" This does not appear in the KJV version of Gen 3 v16.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/15/09


Donna ... I agree with you.

It was Mark who said "The impossibilities of what would have happen if there had been no death is obvious. The way I see this unfolding from the beginning is that God the Architect designed a perfect plan, finished His work on that plan, and what we are seeing is the results of that plan"

This appears to say that ALL, including the Fall, and the consequent introduction of death, was planned by God.

BUt if I misunderstood Mark, I hope he will correct me.
---alan_8566_of_uk on 7/15/09


Alan, don't you ever read the Bible? You speak with a finite mind because your eyes are blinded many times to the Truth. Just look at the remark you made to Darline,
I see a huge gap between you and MarkV ... he says it is all part of God's perfect plan.
Fancy planning that Man would sin, and therefore be destined for hell=fire! Still, it makes the building of hell worthwhile."

If you had read 1 Peter 1:20 you would know that Christ was "Foreknown indeed (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world" So I suppose God didn't know A. & E. would sin. The plan of redemption is traced back into eternity. Open your eyes? Before making remarks about me, why don't you study?
---MarkV. on 7/15/09


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Markv,
God did not make man to sin. God made man in HIS image. He also knew it was POSSIBLE that man might sin. He knew the enemy would try to seperate man from God.
So, he made provision as soon as it happened(Gen. 3:15).
God had set the choice for man from the beginning- Life and death.
He said they could eat of the tree of Life.
But not eat of the tree of Knowledge.
Ever wonder why they chose knowledge over everlasting life with God?
They ate of the forbiden tree because of a lie that was told to them.
So, don't lie to people and say God made some to go to hell. The bible says hell WAS NOT created for man. Why don't you believe this really big truth?
---miche3754 on 7/15/09


Whatever God at first might have allowed to follow its own course have nothing with God continually pulling its strings, and he does not.
Example:
Isaiah 54:15-17: "Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work, and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper, and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD."
---Nana on 7/14/09


Alan of UK --- It was not God's PLAN for Adam and Eve to sin. But... he gave them free will... and when they did sin, He PLANNED a way for them to be saved.

This is a mystery that has confounded Christians for centuries.
---Donna66 on 7/14/09


Alan you wrote 'I've just seen a Tindale Bible, and the words indicate that maybe God did not intend that we reproduce'

How does this line up with Genesis 1: 28 '..be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.'

'it was only after the Fall that women would bear children at all.'

Where did you get this from?

Where do you get the idea God planned for man to sin? Isn't it that God has a plan, knows the end from the beginning, therefore knew man would sin, and planned for this?

Surely human affairs must grieve Him, but surprize him?
---Warwick on 7/14/09


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Darlene ... I've just seen a Tindale Bible, and the words indicate that maybe God did not intend that we reproduce ... it was only after the Fall that women would bear children at all.

I see a huge gap between you and MarkV ... you say God never intended A & E to rebel ... he says it is all part of God's perfect plan.

Fancy planning that Man would sin, and therefore be destined for hell=fire! Still, it makes the building of hell worthwhile.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/14/09


Alan, in Genesis 1:31 God said the finished creation was 'very good.' Does this describe a violent struggle for survival, as evolutionists believe?

Consistent with 'very good' God gave plants as food for animals and humans-1:29,30. Considering carnivory, it is an assumption to say things have always been as they are now.

Scripture separates plants,animals & humans: the latter 2 have 'Nepesh' (consciousness)-1:20,21,24, 2:7. Plants are not alive in this way.

See Romans ch. 5 & 8-Paul says Adam's sin produced the fall causing the whole death and struggle mess-the reason Jesus came to die. Fooling around with Genesis proposing it as metaphor, or poetry, undermines the historical foundation for the gospel.
---Warwick on 7/14/09


Darline, what I believe happened is what God ordained to happen in His plan. The impossibilities of what would have happen if there had been no death is obvious. The way I see this unfolding from the beginning is that God the Architect designed a perfect plan, finished His work on that plan, and what we are seeing is the results of that plan.
Since God is outside of time, He can look at His whole plan all at once. He already knows the end of His plan, He had prophets to tell what was to come and it came, and more is to come till His plan is complete. If events are happening without Him knowing then He is not Supreme. If He is not Omniscience (all knowing) then He is not God. The God of the Bible knows all.
---MarkV. on 7/14/09


Hi Alan of UK,The only way I can treat them is literal until I find in the Bible verses which prove to me they aren't. I am sure that everyone of us have questions we would like to ask God when we get to heaven,things we can't comprehend with our finite minds,I know I do. Think about this,God put Adam and Eve on earth and never intended for them to rebel,afterall,thats why he created humans for fellowship with God,Satan rebeled and ended His relationship and 1/3 of the angels. Since God created man to live forever,he also already had in place the plan to provide for all coming generations. Just think how many Angels are in Heaven with no problem. We each have a Guardian Angel too.
---Darlene_1 on 7/14/09


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Hi Darlene.

I can understand what your passages mean metaphorically, but to treat them literally leaves unswerable questions, of which mine were only a few!
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/13/09


Alan of UK, I would have to say yes to you physical death began here with Adam and Eve,people would indeed have lived for ever just as long as they had access to the Garden of Eden. I know you know this but,The Tree of Life was in the Midst of the Garden Genesis 2:9. Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said,Behold,the man has become as one of us,to know good and evil and now,lest he put forth his hand,and take also of the Tree of Life,and eat,and live forever. Genesis 3:24 this shows God drove Adam and Eve from the Garden and Cherubims and a flaming sword were put to keep the way of the Tree of Life.
---Darlene_1 on 7/13/09


Frances ... We--eell ... Animals were given reproductive systems, so I can't see the intention would have been not to use them!

And without desth ... how would anything have survived. We, and animals have to eat something! And plants are alive, and no death would mean they could not be eaten.

What would fish have eaten? Plankton is a form of life. What would seagulls have eaten ... if not fish, what?

And what about bees and butterflies ... needed to pollinate the plants ... is their few-day life cycle post-Fall?
---alan8566_of_Uk on 7/13/09


AlanofUk, I confess I have the same worries about overpopulation if there was not death. But maybe there would not have been many children born. Maybe this world was meant to be incorruptable and when they got to the optimum number, they would have stayed at that number. But because of death, people kind of moved along the assembly line faster and they had to keep reproducing to make up for the shortfall in workers on farms etc. (Notice because I live in Tokyo my metaphor is more suited to my environment.)
---frances008 on 7/13/09


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Kathr ... You have not answered my question.

Yes Jesus died physically ... but you ask "Did Jesus PHYSICALLY die in our place?"

The answer to that must be "No" I have not heard of anyone since who has not died physically

My question was whether physical death was introduced here as a result of the fall, which is a differnt issue.

In the 6000 years since Adam & Eve, and the Fall not occurred, and everyone and everything living (and loving)for ever ... procreation would mean that animal & human life would now be several yards deep all over the face of the globe
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/12/09


Kathr ... You have not answered my question.

Yes Jesus died physically ... but you ask "Did Jesus PHYSICALLY die in our place?"

The answer to that must be "No" I have not heard of anyone since who has not died physically

My question was whether physical death was introduced here as a result of the fall, which is a differnt issue.

In the 6000 years since Adam & Eve, and the Fall not occurred, and everyone and everything living (and loving)for ever ... procreation would mean that animal & human life would now be several yards deep all over the face of the globe
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/12/09


No, I don't see it written in the Bible anywhere. In Leviticus I believe it says that the sins of the fathers are not the responsibility of the children, although it also says in the O.T. that God will punish the children for the sins of the fathers. These sound contradictory but are not. It means that whilst we might have hard lives due to the sins of our fathers, everyone is responsible for their own sins in eternity, at judgement.
---frances008 on 7/12/09


I'll answer the question...
"Did Jeuss die spiritually?

Answer: A Big fat NO!!!


Our salvation by which we have been redeemed to God through Christs atonement, the propitiatory sacrifice of His body which was broken so His blood could be shed. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, (Eph 1:7).

No more was required for our salvation than redemption through his blood (1 Pet. 1:18, 19). To say Christ died spiritually, was born out of the word of faith/ positive confession movement of which many have plagiarized from works of E.W. Kenyon. This teaching is nowhere to be found in scripture.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/09


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Alan 8566 of UK,

Did Jesus PHYSICALLY die in our place..or did Jesus spiritually die in our place?

DID Jesus die spiritually?



Are we not going to be PHYSICALLY resurrected as well?

Jesus was not a spirit who was resurrected, He had/has a Body, and Jesus had to come in teh flesh to die in teh flesh to begin with. His resurrected body could be touched..by Thomas in fact, who saw the wounds in his side.

If Adam and Eve were allowed to stay in the Garden of Eden and ate of the tree of life, their physical bodies would have lived forever in a fallen state. This is why it was closed!!!

Our resurrection will be both spiritual( NOW) and Physical, when our bodies will be fashioned like His....in Glory!
---kathr4453 on 7/10/09


No, for JB said
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
This a lie?


Yes, by doing the work of the father.
Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
So, believing in the lord is working your way to salvation!
See, easy, right!
The problem is, believing on he who is not!
Lying about him and believing it to be true!
Making him something he is not!
So, thank God for forgiveness.
If you wont believe this is work, well, find the truth!
TheSeg
---TheSeg on 7/9/09


MarkV, I agree with your answer, all are born spiritually dead(separated from God) and are in need of salvation. The Bible says "there is none righteous, no, not one."

Catherine, How could God "give" you that revelation "face to face" when He told Moses that no man could see His face and live?
---tommy3007 on 7/8/09


Are we sure that there would have been no physical death without the Fall?

The frogs in my pond produce thousands of eggs, and tadpoles follw, but the newts eat most of them.

If the newts did not eat them, there would be millions and millions of frogs produced from ny pond over a peoiod of a few years, where would they live & what would they live on? Certainly not flies and midges, because they would not have been allowed to eat them. And without predators, we would also be overrun with flies.

Does scripture really say there would have been no physical death. There must have been, for Eve to have understood what the serpent was referring to (which I beleive may have been spiritual death).
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/8/09


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Of course there is original sin and the lack of belief just verifies the original episode.

It had to start somewhere and in this case with Lucifer who rebelled. Pride and rebellion were the first sins and Lucifer convinced man to choose sin and death and thus infect God's earthly creation. All cane be redeemed wtih the exception of lucifer and other angels who rebelled.

Original sin simply means sin had an origin whether angelic or Adamic.

Go get em Kathr.....
---larry on 7/8/09


Original Sin is the core reason a Christian can't embrace the theory of evolution. The whole message of Christianity starts with mankinds fall from paradise into death through Adams sin.

With evolution, we envision millions and millions of years of death, decay and disease before Adam even came on the scene. And death before sin is theologically inconsistent with the rest of Christian doctrine.

The Gospel message of Jesus' life and death (Genesis 3:15) , the promise of a redeemer, is fortold on the existence of Adam & Eves disobedience and was announced IMMEDIATELY after their fall. Without the original sin, who needs to be redeemed? Without Adam's fall into sin leading to death, what purpose is there to Christianity? None.
---kathr4453 on 7/8/09


I have one Question for Nana


can you work your way to salvation? if so explain why
---willow on 7/8/09


#2 Please post.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Those who do not believe in Original sin, and the consequences that passed on to all mankind, will NEVER understand the Gospel.

Just to say you believe in Jesus won't save you....Trying to immitate His life won't save you

WHAT you believe ABOUT Jesus and WHY He came, died and rose again...is what the Gospel of GRACE is. There is only ONE GOSPEL that can save you...The Gospel of GRACE....you must be saved BY GRACE through faith in His death and resurrection. Romans 10:9 & 10!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/8/09


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***Jesus came to destroy the Law of sin and death. Darlene 1***


Nana,

Yep...Darlene got that part correct....and my post in Hebrews 2 explain HOW he destroyed the law of Sin and death....by His own death, when he took OUR SIN upon Him. He died so I/you can live THROUGH HIM...What about you? Are you still in your SIN...(sin as singular.

Even if you don't believe in Original sin...Have you ever ONCE sinned? Of coarse you have. Just by the very fact you get sick or age has given you away....you're dying!
The wages of SIN is death...sin singular...just ONE SIN will do it! It doesn't say, the wages of many SINS (plural as many many) is death...

Nana, Has Jesus destroyed the law of SIN and death in you?
---kathr445 on 7/8/09


There is original sin. Romans 5:12 "through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" In this passages, the word sin does not refer to a particular sin, but to the inherent propensity to sin that invaded the human realm through Adam. People became sinners by nature. It can be said that through procreation we inherited Adam's fallness and depravity. It can also be said that all sinned in him. Therefore all humans with the exception of Christ are not sinners because they sin, but, rather they sin because they are sinners.
---MarkV. on 7/8/09


Adam SINNED, and DEATH passed on to all men!!!! David said, "I was altogether conceived in si"" he was not saying his mother was a harlot!


14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he (CHRIST) also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved (WAS NECESSARY FOR) him to be made like unto his brethren, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

---kathr4453 on 7/8/09


kathr4453,
You should see a doctor, that 'scoffing' of yours is getting worse.
Why don't you learn from Darlene 1? She is quite enlightened in the ways of God.
You are funny, "Be good all you want Nana....but Jesus said I AM the resurrection!"

How do you think Enoch, Elijah, Moses, et al, walked? Hosea 4:1: "Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land."

kathr4453,
Why did the Lord speak that word? Did he somehow forgot that they were dead? Ezekiel 34, nurture dear!
---Nana on 7/8/09


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No, I do not believe any such thing as original sin.
---Nana on 6/30/09

Nana scoffed at something I said on another blog. He does not(or so it seems) believe in a sin nature..or that our old man..who is our first Adam is altogether sin.

This is what is meant by..as in Adam ALL die.

Nana, the reason it says many and not ALL(sin) is because from Adam to Moses without the Law SIN was not imputed to those people. However something even worse was...DEATH. So lets be clear here... DEATH passed to all man. If a dead man can please God, that one would have set the standard and there would be no reason for the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Be good all you want Nana....but Jesus said I AM the resurrection!
---kathr4453 on 7/7/09


Jesus came to destroy the Law of sin and death. Luke 2:23 As it is written in the law of the Lord,every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy unto the Lord. 1Corinthians 7:12-14 for the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife(believer),and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband(believer),else were your children unclean,but now are they holy(that would include babies at birth).Sins of the Fathers are no longer passed on to the children as shown,Ezekiel 18:14-22, 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die.The son will not share the guilt of the father,nor will the father share the guilt of the son,the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him,and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
---Darlene_1 on 7/7/09


Well, after some thinking on this, I am going to say PRIDE was the original sin. Even if I do not fully understand this question and even if I get it wrong, my God will still save me. Hallelujah!
---catherine on 7/5/09


"Do you believe in "original sin"." Yes.

Satan is its author. The sin, sense knowledge dependency. The sensual perspective that led him to exercise his own deceptive intelligence, fueled by pride and arrogance, to make a futile attempt to usurp the authority and position of the Most High. (Isa.14:14).
The temptation he also use to entice man to abandon their God given place, position and authority in search of what they hoped to have been, a higher one. (Gen. 3:5).
As a result they were led to embrace a sensual perspective that led them to rationalize disobedience their Father's clear command. Resulting in their being subjected to the controlling influences of that carnally based mentality.
---Josef on 7/5/09


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God gave me this answer face to face>>>Sin is Sin!
---catherine on 7/2/09


Here is one for you Ruben:
Romans 5:19: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Why does not Paul say ALL, and only states "many".?
---Nana on 7/1/09

Because maybe he already did! "12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men"18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation"
---Ruben on 7/2/09


Here is one for you Ruben:
Romans 5:19: "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
Why does not Paul say ALL, and only states "many".?
Lets hear Christ touching on righteousness, ( I assume you know what righteousness is, being you present yourself as a Bible believer while discounting me...):
Matthew 23:35: "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."
---Nana on 7/1/09


Ruben, below you quote two psalms of David. In one psalm he is talking about himself, a repentant sinner with a relationship with the Holy Spirit. In the other example he is talking about the people who are wicked who do not have any relationship with God and were predestined to not have one.
---frances008 on 7/1/09


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Ruben,

No, I do not believe any such thing as original sin.
---Nana on 6/30/09

Than you disagree with the Bible:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ..Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."(Romans 5:12-14)
---Ruben on 7/1/09


The punishment for Adam and Eve's sin was that we all live hard lives, with suffering and then die (except for those who give everyone else hard lives - they seem to have happy lives). I don't see where original sin is written in the Bible. But I believe that the human heart is a battleground.
---frances008 on 7/1/09


Mima, I noticed many professing Christains do not believe in the Original Sin. They believe man is good enough to come to Christ on his own power. By the answers they give they assume everyone alive is not separated from God or spiritually dead to the things of God. They know the body is corrupt because it will die a physical death, but that is all they think they have from Adam.
I disagree. I believe that Scripture teaches that all descendants of Adam are fallen, separated from God, dead spiritually and all are in need of a Savior. That by himself he cannot change his own heart or give himself ears to hear and eyes to see, or that he has a heart to preceive. He needs God to open his eyes, and ears, and a new heart to be able to love Christ.
---MarkV. on 7/1/09


Mima

original sin is real it come from our first parents.

QUESTION

If you don't believe in original sin then why did Jesus have endure the Cross?
---willow on 6/30/09


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I understand that Adam and Eve were, at first, God's perfect creation. Then they became *corrupted* by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (consider Ephesians 2:2) And this spirit of evil has been infecting human children, ever since. So we all have our

S-elfishness-Infected N-ature.

Even little kids already have the ability to use temper tantrums and "meltdowns" etc. in order to hold people's peace and reputation *hostage*, in order to get their demands met. And our psychological terrorist tactics can develop with age, so later we can cleverly scare someone into doing what we want, by just getting a little bit nasty if they hesitate. But Satan's spirit started this early.
---Bill_bila5659 on 6/30/09


Ruben,
May I remind you that David is not our Lord, but that Christ is, even his Lord?
Psalm 58:6: "Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD." That is the same old and eye for an eye, but our Lord said otherwise, even repent, and would we think he called the righteous to repentance or was it the wicked and the unrighteous? Matthew 5:37-48.
No, I do not believe any such thing as original sin.
---Nana on 6/30/09


No Mima, I don't believe in "original sin". I believe in "Jesus Christ", the Saviour of all who receive Him as Lord, from Adam's original sin (as recorded in the Bible). The evidence of Adam's original sin is overwhelming & is all around us daily. It's manifested in the on-going sins, idolatries, etc., of people in the world.
---Leon on 6/30/09


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