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Half Of Population Raptured

When the Bible uses the parable "two are in the field one is taken and the other is left" Is this a picture of the rapture? If so and since we are to interpret the Bible literally, does that mean 50% of the people will be raptured?

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Matthew 24:30,31 and 1 Thess. 4:16,17, give the same event of Jesus Second Coming, which is called Parousia in greek. Both speak of the same event of what will happen when true believers are "caught up."
Jesus also said His Second Coming would be a very noisy event that will include loud reverberations from "a great sound of a trumpet" thoughout the sky. In both events we read about clouds, noise, a loud trumpet, a gathering together, and true believers being transported into the sky.
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, but the Father only. But as the day's of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."
---MarkV. on 7/28/09


Interpret the Bible literally not on this one it was just to show people working at the same task being taken
---TIMOTHY on 7/27/09


It is not a picture of the rapture but of
judgement. The people that are taken
away in this case are unbelivers and are
taken away to punishment.
---Lenore on 7/27/09


Lawrence ... I am a little bit of a mathematician, but I can't understand your figures!

How can a "saint" not be god-fearing?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/27/09


Well, we don't know what we don't know but it really doesn't matter if its 50 or 30%, just make sure you're in if you are still around.
The idea whether via rapture or natural death is to make sure you have the gift of salvation. The percentage discussion is diversionary and incapable of edification or light.
I believe the parable simply suggests some will go and some will not go -nothing more. It was not a narrative that we see so often in conjunction with the number 7 or 40.
---larry on 7/27/09




AMEN Mark_Eaton......Perfect!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/27/09


Using figures & Not exact,if there were 500 of God's Churches around the world, & there were 200 saints in each Church,I believe there will 75 God fearing saints that would be raptured. The 75 are the wheat & the 125 are the tares(those that were just going to Church like great pretenders,But,Not in Church).
---Lawrence on 7/27/09


Exzucuh:

You said "The old testament prophecies do not appear to be accurate. If they appeared accurate then the Jews would not have crucified Jesus".

How is it that not all the Jews were deceived? Luke 2:34-38 speaks of Simeon and Anna who both waited to see Jesus born and knew Him as the Messiah.

How is it that Herod knew where the Messiah was to be born? The scribes and the priests told him. They KNEW because of the Scripture in Micah.

No, the Pharisees chose not to accept Jesus as the Messiah. He did not fit their understanding and He condemned them. They expected a "majestic" Messiah and they expected to be rewarded for their love of the Law.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/27/09


"coming" means (Parousia) which means "Second Coming"..MarkV....



BUT Caught up/away Strongs # 726 only uses in these verses:

****to snatch out or away****

# Acts 8:39
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, .....


# 2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell, or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth,) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
---kathr4453 on 7/27/09


Jesus is speaking in parables.
The parable of Ten Vigins, 5 taken and 5 were left. I think this is not the proper equation. Those who were taken up were only God's elect. Read Mark 13:27 Remember during the flood 8 people saved, in Exudos only 2 persons Joshua and Caleb entered the promise land. Matthew 20:16 Many are called but few are choosen. FEW only
---rosalie on 7/26/09




Exzucuh, what you have written concerning the tribulation and the Rapture I am in agreement. What I believe by reading what "coming" means (Parousia) which means "Second Coming" in those passages in Matthew and Thess. Meaning that what we call the rapture is really the Second Coming.
I believe through the act of those two Jesuits from the RCC whose job was to remove the stigma that the pope was the antichrist, really took hold and so now many do not think the Pope is the antichrist. Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox, Thomas Cranmer, Roger Williams, Cotton Mather, John Wesley, David Benedict, Wycliffe, Tyndale, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, Ryle, all believed the pope was the antichrist.
---MarkV. on 7/26/09


The CHURCH, the body of Christ (A NEW CREATION) is a special called out company of begotten sons through Jesus Christ. Where Christ is so are we, for eternity....HEAVEN
*****

KEY WORD: BEGOTTEN in other words (as stated in the Holy Word) HEIRS ...if you are to inherit something at someone's death do you own it now while they are alive - of course not

DECEPTION from the father of lies and foolish men who teach traditions of men DISMISSING Gods Word which tells us we will REIGN with Christ on earth

sorry heaven is mens idea of eternity - Gods Holy Word tells us Christ RETURNS TO RULE EARTH establishing Gods Kingdom ...the gospel is Gods Kingdom - READ Gods Word carefully for what it says NOT through the lies of men
---Rhonda on 7/24/09


Interesting topic going here. I know I am jumping in, but let me share a few observations.
Be careful about throwing stones (you who are perfect can throw stones).
A challenge in this discussion is not to get caught up in endless speculations.
Concerning the accuracy of interpreting the Bible, what happens is one tries to interpret the prophecies literally, but that presents many challenges. If one interprets many of them spiritually, which has challenges also, but seems to be more understandable.
The rapture is based on trying to interpret everything literally, which creates the "great parentheses," here comes the rapture, which explains away what should happen in one's heart.
---Rod on 7/24/09


The nation Israel had failed to heed Gods message which He gave through their own prophets, so the Lord told them that at a future time they will hear His message through tongues (languages) other than their own. "For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people" Isaiah 28:12. The gift of tongues was a sign to Israel. The words "this people" in Isaiah 28:11, refers only Israel. The abuse of tongues shows the neglect of the Scriptures which teach its proper use.

This purpose of the gift of tongues, namely to communicate Gods message to Israel, is verified in the three passages in In Acts 2. Tongues-speaking was used as a missionary or evangelistic tool in fulfillment of Isaiah 28:11.
---kathr4453 on 7/24/09


The old testament prophecies do not appear to be accurate. If they appeared accurate then the Jews would not have crucified Jesus, .... exzucuh**

The OT prophecies ARE totally accurate.

Yes, the one they were looking for in the Prophecies was not a baby in a manger. Not one who left Glory...95% of OT Prophecies are talking about the RISEN Lord coming in ALL His Glory, only 5% are about crucified redeemer, Isaiah 53.

Now that Jesus has Risen from the Dead....the 95% will be fulfilled as planned!

If in fact Israel had accepted the Baby in a manger, and Jesus then became KING OF THE JEWS, their would be no CROSS or redemption, no shed blood, no lambs book of life.

THINK exzucuh...use your head!
---kathr4453 on 7/24/09


Isaiah 9:13-14 For the people turneth not unto him that smiteth them, neither do they seek the LORD of hosts. Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day.

Here is an example of scripture that does not appear to be accurate, but is accurate according to spiritual understanding. It gives the impression God will destroy Israel in one Day,literally speaking. But is talking about the crucifixion, They crucified Jesus and God cut them off that day. The New Testament was the cutting off of Israel, they have to forsake the old covenant to be saved and become new born again Jews of the house of Judah.
---exzucuh on 7/24/09


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Isaiah 28:11-12 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

At the time of this Prophecy it appeared in accurate because Isaiah was Prophesying the
enslavement of Israel by foreigners of a another Language. How could bondage bring rest or refreshing? The Apostles by divine revelation interpreted this prophecy as the stammering lips of the Holy Ghost filled disciples on the Day of Pentecost, They would have never knew it by literal interpretation. The Holy Spirit is our Teacher!
---exzucuh on 7/24/09


The old testament prophecies do not appear to be accurate. If they appeared accurate then the Jews would not have crucified Jesus, They were looking for the one in the prophecy that was royalty, not a poor carpenter. That is why I said they must be revealed by the Spirit.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is the same reason you are looking for The Great tribulation and the Rapture and not the Second coming of Christ. You do not interpret scripture by divine revelation.
---exzucuh on 7/23/09


Exzucuh, in fact I believe most of what you have stated. And Please don't place me at the same church as Kathr. I find your statement very interesting. And when you said that there was error, I assumed you meant error in interpretation. Keep going, I might learn something today. I have my own opinions but will not direct them to you but to Mark E. I am sure we don't have to throw rocks at each other.
---MarkV. on 7/23/09

Okay, MarkV I am sorry I said that no more rocks.
---exzucuh on 7/23/09


Exzucuh, in fact I believe most of what you have stated. And Please don't place me at the same church as Kathr. I find your statement very interesting. And when you said that there was error, I assumed you meant error in interpretation. Keep going, I might learn something today. I have my own opinions but will not direct them to you but to Mark E. I am sure we don't have to throw rocks at each other.
---MarkV. on 7/23/09


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exzucuh, I quoted your words exactly as you said them. Now that you see how silly your comments were, you then attack others as mis-representing.

If that's the case exzucuh, please take the high road, and say something like,

"Oh Gee, I didn't mean that the way I stated it. Please let me state again what I do mean".

It seems exzucuh, more then one person ( three or more actually) understood your words to mean the same thing I did.

WHY do some have so much PRIDE that they can't admit they were in the wrong! I just have no respect for those like exzucuh, eloy, markv etc, who ASSAULT the person. They are not called by God to teach...PERIOD!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/23/09


---kathr4453 on 7/22/09

Are you the interpreter for Exzucuh? Are these people so ignorant they cannot read for themselves? No you are a manipulator just like those who wanted to catch Jesus in something he said, so they could discredit him. Do you and MarkV go to the same church? Anyone who has ever read anything I have written will know that I never, ever, most assuredly never
say there are mistakes in scripture. There are mistakes in understanding of scripture just like your mistake in understanding me. It is Spiritual dyslexia.
---exzucuh on 7/23/09


Why is it when you discreditors cannot prove your theories you want to manipulate what people say like democrats do? Don't you know that is called Gainsaying in the bible and is punishable by God to prove to you you are wrong. Doctrines that cannot be proven are not doctrines they are lies. To come against someone by saying they have said something when they have not is deception from the devil.
You cannot reveal truth by deception or manipulation, the truth reveals itself and needs no help. Truth is revealed in the heart and acknowledged in the spirit and amplified by the Holy Spirit.
---exzucuh on 7/23/09


Earth was made for Man to dwell upon and man was created to dwell upon it he was never meant to live in heaven. Jesus came to restore things to their proper order and destroy evil.
---exzucuh on 7/22/09

exzucuh, am I to understand you really DON'T understand Ephesians 1?

The CHURCH, the body of Christ (A NEW CREATION) is a special called out company of begotten sons through Jesus Christ. Where Christ is so are we, for eternity....HEAVEN. We will be Glorified together with Christ, and seated with Christ in Heavenly places IN CHRIST. He's preparing a place for us this very minute in His Fathers house.....not on earth, not even the New Earth.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/09


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Mark E. I too believe there will be no tribulation. There has always been tribulation for the children of God. There will be a rapture, and that rapture happens to be on the Second Coming of Christ. His coming will be heard by all people. It will be noisey. Matt. 24 speaks of the Second Coming as well as 1 Thess. 4and5. The word "coming" means "Parousia," which means Advent, or Second Coming, or (return), Spec, of Christ to punish Jerusalem or finally the wicked (by impl.) physical aspect-coming presence.
This information from the Greek word "Coming" cannot be denied no matter what we believe. It will be just like Noah's time.
---MarkV. on 7/23/09


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This was jesus prophesying GREAT tribulation not (THE GREAT tribulation doctrine) that man has made from it. Great tribulation came on Israel in 70 Ad they were destroyed as never before as Jesus said.

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of GREAT tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Since the church began there has been great tribulation because through tribulation we enter the kingdom of God and by tribulation we get patience and faith.
---exzucuh on 7/23/09


Jesus speaks of leaving to prepare rooms in His Father's house. Where is His Father's house? In Heaven or on Earth? Any observations?
---stephen on 7/22/09


Jesus told us parables, so he could weed out the people that he wanted.
He knew that some people wouldn't understand, but he didn't want them. read Matthew 13:1-23 Jesus tells us eactly the type of people he wants.
---batieste on 7/22/09


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What I find absolutely shocking is exzucuh stated that the OT prophets empowered to speak by the Power of the Holy Spirit GOD'S WORD, says is a mistake. How can all those scriptures be a mistake.

The fact that they are not a mistake is that we also have Revelation to re-iterate these warnings. And I believe Revelation says if anyone adds to or takes away ....all these curses will come on them.

Let's be very careful we NEVER call God's word a mistake, or God a Liar.

Jesus LEFT GLORY to come the first time, and will return in all His Glory to execute JUDGEMENT The second time!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/22/09


The Bible does not say there will be a Rapture or A great tribulation. It says that there will be a second coming of Christ and he will Judge the World and set up a Kingdom upon the Earth. It says that Heaven and Earth will become one dwelling place that The New Jerusalem That is 1500 miles square will replace the old. It Does say that those who are alive will be Joined in the air with those coming with Christ and they all will be glorified together in new bodies. Those bodies
were made to dwell upon the earth not heaven. Earth was made for Man to dwell upon and man was created to dwell upon it he was never meant to live in heaven. Jesus came to restore things to their proper order and destroy evil.
---exzucuh on 7/22/09


which field? so then every person in every city across the world will be "left behind" ...seduction of the father of lies and the lie of being whisked away contradicts Christ WARNING to watch and pray ..."raptured" away by mens idea's DISMISSING Christs very CLEAR warning that he will protect at a place of safety - just like ancient Israel was protected by Christ during their times of tribulation

according to this one misunderstood verse of which an entire fable has been build and seduced by the false ministers of the left behind seriers ....you must move to a farm and "hope" you are one of the two in the field on that day or on the roof or at the mill
---Rhonda on 7/22/09


Exzucuh:

If you believe that there will not be a Great Tributlation, then really what you are saying is that you do not believe the Bible is true, and specifically book of The Revelation.

The OT talks about a "day" of judgment. Joel 2, Isaiah 13, Ezekiel 7, Ezekiel 30, Amos 4, Obadiah 1, Micah 5, Zephaniah 1 all describe this "day" of judgment on the earth.

NT passages such as 2 Pet 3 also describe a day of judgment.

The Great Tribulation is this "day".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/22/09


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If you read the Old Testament prophesies of the messiah you will see they don't appear to be accurate they describe a king they say he will restore Israel. Exzucuh****


There are TWO comings in the OT of the Messiah..one of KING, and One of redeemer.

The KING coming in all His Glory is prophecy of the RISEN Christ.

The problem Israel had with Jesus first appearing was He didn't fit the description of KING, coming in all His Glory to overthrow Rome and gentile rule.

They just didn't get that Jesus must first suffer and die...and then RISE again to be able to return IN ALL HIS GLORY to overthrow Gentile arrogance.

Jesus death and resurrection DID NOT NULLIFY these promises...It ensures them!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/22/09


1 Cor 15:23But every man in his own order:

1. Christ the firstfruits,
2. afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Rapture of the Church)

.......
3. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (Kingdom Reign 1000 years..satan only bound)

4. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. After the 1000 years....

.... But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. This is the Kingdom Reign

5. FINALLY
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
---kathr4453 on 7/22/09


There is not going to be a rapture out of tribulation, And there is never going to be a Great tribulation, but there is always going to be tribulation and trouble. Through tribulation Christians enter the kingdom of God. Through tribulation Christians learn patience and faith. If you read the Old Testament prophesies of the messiah you will see they don't appear to be accurate they describe a king they say he will restore Israel. Moses says God will raise up another Moses. You have to get the meaning of scripture by divine interpretation because it is not for the enemies of God to know the truth
but to the humble and contrite who believe on the Son of God.
---exzucuh on 7/22/09


StevenG, Zech 12-14 is prophetic. It's actually the time Jesus speaks of in Matt 24. The time of Jacob's trouble. This is to Israel, the Jews. The time of the great and terrible Tribulation, just prior to the second coming of Jesus Christ. As Matthew 24 is not talking about a rapture of the Saints being taken out,(US). We see in Zech 12 those who will be left..1/3 to enter into the Millenniel Kingdom Reign. Yes Gentiles who did not come against Israel...will also enter into the earthly Kingdom reign. You will also see the stipulations to Gentiles ..Zech 14...that they MUST come up to Jerusalem once a year to worship, or else God will cut off any rain to them.

Now do you think this is a picture of Heaven itself? Certainly not!
---kathr4453 on 7/21/09


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kathr4453: "Zechariah 14:5 - Lets hope its not on the Sabbath! Matt 24 - Jews Only."

On the contrary, anything that was written in the OT was for the Jew only (only in their eyes because what they were taught, they were suppose to bring to the world, but failed.)

Anything that happened in the NT concerns only the christians - all the christians from Jesus' time until now. And it's the christians who are now to bring God's word to the world (since the Jews failed).
---Steveng on 7/19/09


First of All you cannot interpret parables or revelation literally, And if you truly want to understand the Bible at all it must be by revelation given from the teacher the Holy Spirit. The Doctrines of man are all literal understanding of Gods word. The Jews did not keep the Law as Jesus revealed to them because they literally interpreted it and it became Nomos Law the Religious ceremonial keeping of the Law rather than Entolay moral keeping of the Law. Jesus comes as a thief at any time to evaluate his followers if he finds them backslid he warns that he will lay the axe to the root and judge them with unbelievers, If he finds two in a field the tare will be taken and thrown in the fire and the wheat left.
---exzucuh on 7/19/09


Trav:

I do not dispute that there are Scriptures about the kingdom being returned to Israel. The millenial reign of Jesus is just such a kingdom I believe in and await His kingdom.

My point to Kathr (which I did not complete) was that kingdom being returned to Israel is not discussed anywhere in entire chapter of Matthew 24. Not entire Bible, as it appears you thought I meant.

Sorry.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/15/09

No need to for you to be sorry. I'm guilty here.
I misread. Hopefully someone reading might take the time to re-search all of this.
Truth important thing. You were truthful.
There are many diversions today as noted/found in Matt 24. I'm too quick sometimes to point them out,as in this.
---Trav on 7/16/09


Matthew says the angels gather the righteous they also gather the tares to be burned. Both events happen at the same time.
---Samuel on 7/16/09


Samuel, interesting note here. When Paul tells us about the translation of the Church, meeting Christ in the Clouds...there is no mention of anyone being with Him. No Angels etc. So actually I believe no Angels will be gathering the church, but Christ Himself will gather His Church and transform us to have our New Glorified bodies at that time, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

The Dead IN CHRIST will rise first, a resurrection, not a gathering by Angels.. first....
---kathr4453 on 7/16/09


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Mark E. It's ok to disagree here. If you want to continue on the topic, I would love to go back and forth if it's ok with you.
First, you seem to make a point of saying, the first coming two times, but neither was correct because the first coming He came in the flesh. I believe it was an error, not on purpose.
Second, what I think really confuses many is the difference between the Second Coming and the Day of our Lord. In fact in Luke 21:25 the Lord Jesus had a lot to say about His Second Coming while at the Mount of Olives which is recorded just a bit different in Matt. 24 and also in 1 Thess. 4:13-18. All speak of the same event, the word "coming" is the same word Parousia, connected to His Second Coming.
---MarkV. on 7/16/09


Jude 1:14
., Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Zechariah 14:5 - Lets hope its not on the Sabbath! Matt 24 - Jews Only.

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Revelation 17:14
..: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

The CHURCH is the Called out, chosen and faithful are WITH Christ at the 2nd Coming.
---kathr4453 on 7/16/09


At the rapture JESUS comes again. Since that would be the second time he comes the rapture has to be the Second coming. Since all who follow JESUS will be taken those left are dead. Keep reading in thessalonians the book give more details of the event.

Matthew says the angels gather the righteous they also gather the tares to be burned. Both events happen at the same time.
---Samuel on 7/16/09


The rapture focuses on Christians looking for and awaiting the Lords return. In addition to 1 Thessalonians 4, Matthew 25:1-13 tells the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. Those who had extra oil and were waiting and prepared for the return of the bridegroom were taken while those who were foolish and ran out of oil were left.

Second Coming paints the opposite picture. It's the foolish unrepentant ones who didn't anticipate the Lords return who are taken. The parable of the tares in Matthew 13, Jesus instructs that harvesters to allow the tares to grow among the wheat until the time of the harvest. Then the tares are gathered together and thrown into the fire to be burned,a similar picture of judgment in Matthew 24:37-39.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/09


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MarkV:

I must agree with Kathr.

There seems two different "appearings" of Jesus discussed in scripture.

The first "appearing" is in 1 Thes 4:13-18 Jesus descends from the heavens where we who remain meet Him in the air (with those who have been asleep). This event takes place quickly (shout) and it does not seem that Jesus actually makes it to earth only to the clouds.

The second "appearing" is in Rev. 19:11-19 Jesus appears from the heavens on a horse, accompanied by the armies of heaven ready to make war against forces on earth. This event seems to be the culmination of the battle of Armageddon.

I believe that the Matt 24 passage talks about the first "appearing".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/15/09


Trav:

I do not dispute that there are Scriptures about the kingdom being returned to Israel. The millenial reign of Jesus is just such a kingdom and I believe in and await His kingdom.

My point to Kathr (which I did not complete) was that the kingdom being returned to Israel is not discussed anywhere in the entire chapter of Matthew 24. Not the entire Bible, as it appears you thought I meant.

Sorry.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/15/09


Know your FACTS:

Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air 1 Thess 4:17.
Second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth Rev 19:14.

Second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation Rev 6-19.
Rapture occurs before the tribulation 1 Thess 5:9,.

Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance 1 Thess4:13-17, 5:9.

Second coming is the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment Matt 24:40-41).

Second coming won't occur until after certain other end-times events take place 2 Thess 2:4, Matthew 24:15-30, Rev chapters 6-18.

Rapture could take place at any moment Titus 2:13, 1 Thess 4:13-18, 1 Cor15:50-54).
---kathr4453 on 7/15/09


The rapture and second coming are often confused. In studying end-times Bible prophecy, it is very important to differentiate between the two.

The rapture is when Jesus Christ returns to remove the church (all believers in Christ) from the earth. The rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air. This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.

The second coming is when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist, destroy evil, and establish His millennial kingdom. The second coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
---kathr4453 on 7/15/09


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Hosea 3:1,2, Hosea is told to buy back Gomer, teaching a "restoration" to God of the "branches that were pruned off" (Romans 11:17,24). Hosea 3:1-5, This restoration will happen "in the latter days" Hosea 2:14-16 "you will call me 'My Husband' and no longer call me 'My Master.'

In verses 19,20 God says, "I will betroth you to me forever, in righteousness and justice, in lovingkindness and mercy, I will betroth you to me in faithfulness, and you shall know the Lord." This time, still future, when they will be "grafted back into their own olive tree'" (Romans 11:23-27).
---kathr4453 on 7/12/09

Nice find above.....kathr4453..sincerely.
Travelocity.
---Trav on 7/14/09


Kathr:

Sorry, but I do not agree. The passage in Matt 24 does NOT discuss the kingdom being restored to Israel.

The kingdom is not asked about and is not answered anywhere in the entire
---Mark_Eaton on 7/14/09

It is answered in the entire New Covenant.
The gentiles(nations,ethnos of divorced Israel) are the sheep.
Heb 8:8
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:23-25
Matthew 25:33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Revelation 21:11-13
---Trav on 7/14/09


Mark E. as I see it there is only one "Second Coming of Christ" The passages in Matthew 24 is speaking of the Second Coming. The word "Coming" is Parousia. Which indicates the Second Coming. The exact same word "Parousia" is mentioned in 2 Thess. 2:1-3. Which is talking about the same event. As you said, no mention of Israel is in those passages, and can only be there if someone tries to connect them to the Second Coming. Which the context does not allow. There is only one Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord follows the Second coming. It is a day of Judgment. Which is found in Rev. 19 which also speaks of the marriage of the Lamb and His wife ready.
---MarkV. on 7/14/09


Kathr:

Sorry, but I do not agree. The passage in Matt 24 does NOT discuss the kingdom being restored to Israel.

As I alluded to in an earlier post, Jesus is answering the disciples three questions, when will the temple be destroyed, what is the sign of your return, and what is the sign of the end of the age. The kingdom is not asked about and is not answered anywhere in the entire

Grouping these two passages together because they sound alike is a very great mistake.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/14/09


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Acts 1:6-7

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Matt 24:36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,but the Father alone"


Jesus is in both instances is referring to the Kingdom to be restored to Israel. Peter is asking Jesus after His resurrection,will the Kingdom to Israel be restored at THIS TIME..Jesus said NO....only the Father knows when that will take place.

NO RAPTURE is referred to here in Matt or Acts.
---kathr4453 on 7/14/09


frances008: "I sincerely pray that Mark Eaton and Steveng both get what they are hoping for, and indeed, everyone on this blogsite."

And what's that?
---Steveng on 7/13/09


MarkV:

The scripture passage, in my mind, begins in Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone"

The rest of the chapter is more explanation and expounding on this thought, "you do not know when Jesus will return".

When Jesus describes the days of Noah, it is not merely about eating and drinking and wedding, it is what they were not worrying about, the flood that was to come. So will the coming of the Lord be. Everyone will be living life and not thinking about His coming.

Jesus completes the chapter admonishing us to be ready for His return.

Now this unexpected return is not the triumphal entry I read in Rev. 19.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/09


This parable is talking about when Christ's comes again. It is a contrast to what happened in the days of Noah right before the flood. Nowhere in the Bible is the issue of rapture ever mentioned. This is a false belief. When Christ comes the second all will go before the judgment for the world will have been burned up. Those that are dead in Christ will be called up first and everyone else will meet them in the air. Everyone will go to judgment at the same time. Again I say that scripture never mentions rapture.
---Jonathan on 7/13/09


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Mark E, while I agree with your statement that Matthew 24:40 believers will be taken at the "Second Coming of Christ" or "parousia" v. 39, which the Bible clearly applies to the loud, visible, and glorious appearance of Jesus Christ at the very end of the age. Jesus basically said, "it will be just like Noah's day." Noah did not disappear. And what about those who were left? They died. Did they have a second chance? No. So after saying "the flood came, and took them all away," Jesus made His point, "So also will the coming (Parousia) of the Son of Man be" Then Christ said, "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left"
---MarkV. on 7/13/09


Paul also mentions the Day of the Lord in 1 Cor. 1:7-9, ......
---MarkV. on 7/12/09


The Day of the Lord is not the same as The Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Matthew speaks of those who endured to the end, and will enter the Millennial Kingdom Reign. Nothing is spoken here of the Lambs book of Life.

We see, the judgement of Nations as well. This is not the Great White Throne Judgement. No one has been resurrected in Matt 25.

We see those who Jesus called My brethren...after the flesh, which are Jews.

The Church is not saved via good works, but by Jesus death and Resurrection ONLY.

Gentiles at this time will be Judged as to how they treated the Jews. Also read Zechariah 12-14.
---kathr4453 on 7/13/09


Steveng:

Studying and talking about the soon return of Jesus is not philosophy built upon the wisdom of man. We must always remember that we are sojourners or travelers here on earth and this is not our home. Our citizenship is in heaven.

If you choose to not discuss this subject, fine, that is OK with me. But please do not try to persuade us from doing so.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/13/09


I sincerely pray that Mark Eaton and Steveng both get what they are hoping for, and indeed, everyone on this blogsite.
---frances008 on 7/13/09


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Mark_Eaton: "Steveng: Sorry brother but I want that crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) that is promised for all who have loved His appearing. I will not stop talking, thinking, and waiting for His soon coming.

I wait for THAT day, I work for THAT day, I suffer for THAT day, and live for THAT day."

So, Mark, what part of my post on 7/10/09 is not biblical?
---Steveng on 7/12/09


Kathr, MarkV:

I just told you what the Greek words mean.

To take a person to one's self and to associate with them is not what you do when you pass judgment one someone. Shunning a person, abandoning and disregarding them is not what you do to someone you love.

Matt 24 has many different time periods in it. The disciples asked three questions, when will these things happen (tearing down of the temple), what is the sign of your coming, and what is the sign of the end of the age?

Jesus didn't divide His answers neatly, He mixed them all up. You have to read each verse and decide which question it answers.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/12/09


Here is the same words again from Jesus...

Jesus is comparing this time in both Matthew and Luke to the time of Noah.

Luke 17:27
They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. the verse isn't saying Noah an family were destroyed

If you read to the end of Matt 24, you will see this is judgement. Zechariah says, the wicked will instantly consume away. Zech says there will be 2/3 taken out during the Great tribulation...and only 1/3 left. Revelation also say 2/3 of the population will be destroyed.

Mark Eaton, God TOOK Enoch...and it is a different word.
---kathr4453 on 7/12/09


Cluny, Actually rabbits do "regurgitate" their food,they eat their droppings!
Was a pterodactyl a bird?? (like bats, they could fly) Emus and ostrich,s have wings and feathers but can't fly ,are they birds? hmmmm.
---1st_cliff on 7/12/09


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bettie: The secret rapture theory is an old false doctrine. The verses you quoted from Mat 24 go on to indicate that the ones who were "taken" were taken to "destruction!" Is that where you want to be "raptured?"
---jerry6593 on 7/12/09


Matthew 24 is speaking about the Second Coming of Christ. There is no question about it. The disciples ask Jesus while on the mount of Olives, "Tell us, when will these thing be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and the end of the age?" The word the Lord used for coming was When Jesus used the term "Parousia" in His discourse, He used it in the technical sense as a reference to His Second Coming. Where He will take His church and Matthew 25, we find that when He comes, He is going to bring about judgment on the earth. Paul also mentions the Day of the Lord in 1 Cor. 1:7-9, where He tells us, the believers, that Jesus will sustain us to the end guiltless in the Day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 7/12/09


Steveng:

Sorry brother but I want that crown of righteousness (2 Tim 4:8) that is promised for all who have loved His appearing. I will not stop talking, thinking, and waiting for His soon coming.

I wait for THAT day, I work for THAT day, I suffer for THAT day, and live for THAT day.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/11/09


"Is this a picture of the rapture?" No.
Betti consider the context in which the statement is given.
"In that 'Night'.."-metaph. speaking it is the time when work ceases, the time for deeds of sin and shame, the time of moral stupidity and darkness, the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber.
The Father's children are children of the day, not to be 'taken'-to take with one's self, to join to one's self- in the night.
Jesus tells His disciples where the taken are gathered "Where the 'body'- corpse in this context- [is], thither will the 'eagles'-vultures- also be gathered together." (ASV) The taken are taken in by The ultimate deceiver and his deception.
---josef on 7/11/09


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Forget about dispensationalism, premillennialism, amillennialism, and all the other -isms.

Forget about preterist, futurist, historicist and all the other -ists.

Read the letter from Paul to the Colossians. "Don't let others spoil your faith and joy with their philosophies, their wrong and shallow answers built on men's thoughts and ideas."

Keep your faith simple. Obey the two commandments Jesus spoke of. Do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," and "encourag" because living a christian life is a 24/7 lifestyle - not a once a week pep talk dished out by denominational "churches."
---Steveng on 7/10/09


Bettie:

Matt. 24:40 "Then two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken and the other left"

The word "taken" in the Greek means to take to one's self, to associate with, to not reject, to acknowledge.

The word "left" in the Greek means to shun, to disregard, to abandon, to go away from.

When Jesus comes He will take the believers to Himself, just as you take your child to your breast, and will shun, disregard, and abandon those who have never trusted Him.

The verse is absolutely about the Rapture.
---Mark_Eaton on 7/10/09


bettie, this will always be a controversal issue among believing Christians. I believe the rapture of the Church comes before the Judgement and wrath of God...Matt 24.

Those left will be the ones who enter into the Millenniel Kingdom Reign for 1000 years. Flesh and blood people will be entering here. No reference is made in Matthew 24 about the resurrection of the dead first and the rest of us meeting Christ in the air. We teh Church will be Glorified together with Christ at His coming...and have Glorified resurrected bodies.

You have to study many scriptures to find the truth here.

Read Zechariah 12-14.....to see human flesh enters the Kingdom Reign when Christ returns.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/09


Now I'm really confused. Mark_Eaton says it is the rapture of the Church and kathr4453 says its judgement of the wicked. Which is it?
---bettie on 7/10/09


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I would say no because it is a "parable" used to illustrate and place God's plan, provision or instruction into a form for the Gentiles to understand.

From other parts of scripture I would conclude 50% is not literal, knowing Jesus said he would be and still is largely rejected. The word "remnant" of believers or followers suggest small.
---larry on 7/10/09


Jesus used the description of one taken and one left as an illustration of what would occur during the rapture.

I do not expect anywhere close to 50% of the general population would be taken. I do not expect anywhere close to 50% of people who claim to be "born again" would be taken. Based upon the people I know, the church I attend, and the lifestyles of these people, my guess would be somewhere between 5-10% of the "born again" crowd.

Please remember "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it".
---Mark_Eaton on 7/10/09


Betty, the scripture used in Matthew is not referring to the Rapture of the Church.

This is a description of the taking of the wicked to judgment. Since it is parallel in thought with those who were taken in the judgment of the flood. "The flood came and swept them all away". The Them is the wicked.

Jesus says this time will be like the time of Noah.

The Church is not taken away in Judgement.
---kathr4453 on 7/10/09


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