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Praying To The Dead

2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiph'orus, for he often refreshed me, he was not ashamed of my chains,[18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day -- and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. Isn't Paul praying to the dead?

Moderator - He is praying to the Lord.

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Mt. 27:50f And Jesus having again cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit, and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent,and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many.

Apparently some of the dead saints were resurrected as they appeared to many after the resurrection of Jesus.

But where did they go after being resurrected?Back to the grave?
---Lee1538 on 8/3/09


From scripture: anybody who consults with the dead is detestable to the Lord Deuteronomy 18:10 & #8209,12...Jesus is our only mediator (only is the key word there). 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (it does not say and also Mary, Peter, Christopher, etc). We are not given instruction anywhere in the bible to pray to anybody other than the Father through the Son.
---Kelly on 8/3/09


It is ineffective to ask a saint for help, they are dead and cannot help you. Jesus is alive and ready to help any who call upon him.
Just a thought: would you go to a co-worker and ask for something big or would you go right to the boss and ask for assistance? Co-worker cannot get you that new computer and phone, but the boss sure can. ,)
---Barbara on 8/3/09


\\atholics online deny they do that but all you have to do is go to any Shrine and you will see the truth for yourself.\\

The same way that some Protestant deny they say prayers to pieces of cloth, too.
---Cluny on 8/3/09


I go along with Mark on this issue.

I don't see why or how the prayers of the saints in heaven (if in fact they can or do pray for us) can possibly be more powerful than our own prayers direct to God

God's not going to respond more favourabaloy to the saints because they know how to approach God better! Our sincere words and thoughtw will be as effective as their heaven-tuned words.

To pray to or ask saints to pray for us separates us from God.

It's unecessary, unhelpful ... but I don't see it as a definite route to Hell
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/3/09




Paul is praying to GOD for Oneiphorus. Not praying to the dead.

Praying to the dead is a form of Spiritualism. Should Christians go to Mediums and witches?
---Samuel on 8/3/09


#1 )Every study done in the last quarter century shows that only 20-25% of Catholics in the United States have the same beliefs that the Vatican teaches. Millions of so-called "American Catholics" have created their own religion which runs contrary to Scripture. That is irrelevant to this discussion.

Protestants have long struggled with the claims made by Jesus in John 3:16. True Roman Catholics simply believe Jesus. We don't have to understand it. We just believe it. Those in heaven ARE ALIVE!
---Greyrider on 8/3/09


If God is your Father...
he gave instruction by his word made flesh,Jesus Christ,(John 1-14/Matt 1:23) on how and to whom...pray.

So for those who believe...

Matt 6:9-15
After this manner therefore pray:
Our Father Which art in heaven...

Matt 7: 24
Therefore (whosoever) heareth these sayings of Mine,and doeth them,I will liken him unto a wise man,which built his house upon a rock:
etc...

shalom
---char on 8/3/09


Ignatius, it would be one thing to ask a saint to pray for you, which would mean nothing, but it is other thing when the individuals pray to saints and want the saint to do the miracle for them. Catholics online deny they do that but all you have to do is go to any Shrine and you will see the truth for yourself. It is real Idol worship. And no one stops it. They are asking the saint to do the miracle. They are not asking God the Father, or even going through Christ. Jesus has become an after thought.
One of the first signs of a fallen church is when Idol worship is allowed. This worship is happening everywhere. I've witnessed this in two shrines. My own mom had a shrine of a saint she worshipped. Each person could have their own saint.
---MarkV. on 8/3/09


We ask Saints/Angels in heaven, as we would to our Brothers and Sisters here on Earth, to pray for us. And I am not Catholic.

Saints Peter and Paul intercede unto God for us! AMEN!

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/2/09


According to the Bible, only Christ can intercede for us. SO where are you getting that the saints in heaven intercede for us?
That is not what Jesus said.
No Saint Peter or Paul do not intercede for us. The living are to pray for the living. And what saints do you think Paul or Peter were writing their letters (Over half of the NT)to if the saints are in heaven? You can't deliver a letter to heaven. They were speaking to us who are alive and Christian. Not the dead saints.
---miche3754 on 8/3/09




Miche. We know from Holy Scriptures that the Saints in Heaven are aware of us and pray for us, and that the Holy Angels present our prayers to God (Rev 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4). What part of those Scriptures you don't understand? The Saints in Heaven are alive (alive in Christ).

We are told to pray for others. The Holy Apostles ask others to pray for them (intercessors). You don't want anyone to pray for you? Fine, I follow Holy Scriptures and ask all Saints in Christ to pray to God for me.

Also, we do not pray to God in Saints names. We ask Saints/Angels in heaven, as we would to our Brothers and Sisters here on Earth, to pray for us. And I am not Catholic.

Saints Peter and Paul intercede unto God for us! AMEN!

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/2/09


"Moses died and was subsequently resurrected."
jerry6593 on 8/1/09
Where did you get that from?

john 8:56: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
Was Abraham resurrected too?
---Nana on 8/2/09


In 2Timothy 1:18 & 4:19, Paul wouldn't have referred to the house of... if Onesiphorus were dead. "The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day" in 1:18 is a similar mode of expression to "he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day" in 1:12. He is not addressing this mans state of salvation, but Paul recognizes Onesiphorus' generosity at a time when most of the brothers had abandoned him. These verse have nothing to do with praying to the dear departed Saints (who don't hear prayers). The Bible says to pray to God, 1Timothy 2:5, but we Christians on the Earth can intercede for our brothers, 1Timothy 2:1.
---Glenn on 8/1/09


Ruben: "Jesus himself spoke to dead saints"

No, He didn't. They were very much alive! Elijah never died. He was translated. Moses died and was subsequently resurrected. Jesus was also resurrected. Do you consider Him dead? They both appeared in bodily form to witnesses. From the account, they didn't look dead.
---jerry6593 on 8/1/09


NO DIFFERENCE between asking your neighbor or best friend to pray for you and asking St Anthony or St Francis, or Mary to pray for you. They cannot answer prayers themselves but we can ask them to pray for us. Nothing more.
****


and not only can they NOT answer prayers

these self appointed saints of men CAN NOT HEAR you either - all are DEAD WAITING the resurrection 1Corin 15 which is why Apostles said it is a MYSTERY ...today it is a mystery to all self professing christianity who follow the lies of men

...deception from the father of lies given to the false church and all who worship her

true Christians worship The Father in heaven and pray ONLY to HIM as instructed to us by Christ
---Rhonda on 7/31/09


What part of Jesus's command don't you understand?
Brother it is sin to ask the saints to intercede.
---miche3754 on 7/31/09


Jesus himself spoke to dead saints "Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.(MT 17:3) And as you know Jesus is the example of Christian living,so we read scripture " We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.(1Jhn2:3-4)So if Jesus spoke with saints who have departed and the Bible commands to walk as Jesus did, there is no reason why we are not allowed to speak with them(Saints) who have been perfected and glorified. Do you?
---Ruben on 7/31/09


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Many RC's don't watch how they word things.

The RCC teaches that John 3:16 is to be taken LITERALLY. Those in heaven are NOT dead in our eyes. We DO NOT pray TO the dead, but THROUGH them. In other words, in the eyes of the RCC, there is NO DIFFERENCE between asking your neighbor or best friend to pray for you and asking St Anthony or St Francis, or Mary to pray for you. They cannot answer prayers themselves but we can ask them to pray for us. Nothing more.
---Greyrider on 7/31/09


lets not get confused
the saints refers to christians ALIVE

we are the saints of God

i believe in this case we are refering to christians alive when we refer to saints

so saints to interceed means Christians to pray
---pat on 7/31/09


Ignatius,
I have God's word on my side.
It says to pray only to the father(GOD) in Jesus name.

Where does it say to have dead saints pray for us?
NO where.
So who is in disobedience to God?
Me or you?
I pray a Jesus told us to pray. I don't need any other intercesor but Jesus. And according to him, he is the only one.
SO, go ahead and pray to the dead saints all you want. I will obey God and pray to him in Jesus name.
By the way, It is Christians that are alive that are the saints, not your dead ones.
I have never seen more misunderstanding of the word than those who are RCC. That is why you have had so many leave your denomination. They find the truth in God's word and men to be liars.
---miche3754 on 7/31/09


Brother I am not misunderstanding.
It is wrong and not scripture. Jesus says HE is the only intercesor.
Jesus says to pray in HIS name to God only.
What part of Jesus's command don't you understand?
Brother it is sin to ask the saints to intercede. They can't anyway. They are not Jesus and they are not God. WHat is it you really think they can do?
They can't even pray for you. Only the living can pray for the living.
---miche3754 on 7/31/09

Then please explain to me Rev 5:8 and 8:3-4?
---Ruben on 7/31/09


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That's where you are misunderstanding, when we ask the saints to interceded, they take it to God:- ruben

Brother I am not misunderstanding.
It is wrong and not scripture. Jesus says HE is the only intercesor.
Jesus says to pray in HIS name to God only.
What part of Jesus's command don't you understand?
Brother it is sin to ask the saints to intercede. They can't anyway. They are not Jesus and they are not God. WHat is it you really think they can do?
They can't even pray for you. Only the living can pray for the living.
---miche3754 on 7/31/09


miche3754. Your so called "history" is a figment of your imagination. There is no historical evidence for the silly notion that the Roman Church was started by pagan emperor. When asked to provide a reliable, secular, unbiased, source, you refuse to do so. Historical evidence is against you on this Miche.

I am not sinning, for Jesus said nothing of the sort. When we ask for the Saints/Angels to pray for us (the SAME way we ask our brothers and sisters here to pray for us), we are not praying in there name [s].

Of course your own belief is based on unprovable words attributed to Jesus Christ. I suggest you study Ancient Christianity in the eyes of Orthodoxy. I pray that you come to the Truth.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/30/09


When we appeal to anyone OTHER than God, we are in sin(disobedience to God).
---miche3754 on 7/29/09

That's where you are misunderstanding, when we ask the saints to interceded, they take it to God:

Revelation 5:8 . . . the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
---Ruben on 7/29/09


If we are surround which such a great group cheering us on why not ask for them to help us on the race.- ruben

Because Jesus says HE is the only way and that Jesus says for us to pray to GOD only and in Jesus's name only, that is why.
The saints that have passed are doing what they are told to do....and that is to wait, and watch and see the Glory of God and his righteousness unfold. Because only God knows the beginning and the end and only God is the author and finisher of our faith.
That is why brother.
When we appeal to anyone OTHER than God, we are in sin(disobedience to God).
---miche3754 on 7/29/09


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A case of praying for the dead:
1 Kings 17:20: "And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21: And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22: And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah, and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."
---Nana on 7/29/09


Ruben, In Hebrews, 12:1 is talking about the race set before us


---kathr4453 on 7/27/09


If we are surround which such a great group cheering us on why not ask for them to help us on the race. We know though scripture that they know what is going on, "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"(Rev 6:10) They also can received our prayers "that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."(Rev 8:3-4)
---Ruben on 7/28/09


great points Kath.
I have not read at all anywhere that God says that we are to pray for the dead.
The spiritually dead but not physically dead.
Spiritually dead are those who are in sin.
---miche3754 on 7/27/09


I do not know, but Paul in Hebrews after talking about all the OT saints he says (Hebrews 12:1)"We are surround with so great a cloud of witnesses" and doesn't James 5:16 say "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Aren't the saints in heaven much more righteous than you and me?
---Ruben on 7/24/09

Ruben, In Hebrews, 12:1 is talking about the race set before us....Phil 3 says the same thing...

And in James the scripture is in relation to Elijah...who was alive when he prayed no rain....again nothing about dead people praying or praying to dead people.

If James wanted to make a point about dead people praying, he would have used a different example
---kathr4453 on 7/27/09


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Ignatius,

I don't listen to propaganda. I don't have denomination. Everything I have learned is from researching history and the Bible.
Jesus says don't pray to anyone except God HIS name only.
What part of that don't you get?
You're in disobedience.
Are you going to believe Jesus or going to continue to believe in your manmade doctrine that's fallible?
I take what Jesus says before not man
Why? BECAUSE GOD IS NOT A MAN THAT LIES. GOD IS THE TRUTH.
If you don't believe that, go ahead and stick to your rituals that will send you straight to eternal damnation.
I prefer Jesus's words of truth to man's.
And those who left RCC, left because they discovered the truth. Jesus, the way truth and life!
---miche3754 on 7/27/09


No. Onesiph'ourus is a servant (alive not dead person) who visit paul in the prison. "he is not ashamed of my chains" probably when paul imprison he was messenger ect, refresher or encourager at that time.
---rosalie on 7/26/09


Miche "I am saying that according to history, RCC(established in Rome, by a Roman Pagan worshiping Emperor) mixed and contaminated the truth to RCC."

Anti-Catholic Propaganda.

In truth, however, there exist no historical evidence to suggest such a silly notion. Please cite a relaiable, unbiased, secular Historical book that said that. All my historical books (including Protestant ones, such as renowned Scholar/Historian Philip Schaff "History of the Christian Church) disagree with you.

All the historical evidence (even from Protestant sources) indicate that Saint Peter was in Rome and founded the Church of Rome. However, if you want to discuss this, start a new blog.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/24/09


Miche:

I am glad that you finally accepted the fact that praying for the departed goes back to the OT, and was not started by the RCC as Rob would like us to believe. Second, I find no evidence to suggest that praying for the departed was part of the Old Covenant, made void by the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Also, I need not to repent. For I am not committing any sin. Jesus never said we can not pray for the departed or that we can't ask Saints and Angels in Heaven to pray for us.

Roman/Eastern Catholics are not the only ones who pray for the departed. All the Ancient and Apostolic Churches of the East do as well (for example the Church of Jerusalem).

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/24/09


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So Ruben, are you saying this to me as a live person or dead person? You mean, you thing Paul was praying to Mary or the RCC Saints to give tht message to the Lord?
---kathr4453 on 7/24/09


I do not know, but Paul in Hebrews after talking about all the OT saints he says (Hebrews 12:1)"We are surround with so great a cloud of witnesses" and doesn't James 5:16 say "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." Aren't the saints in heaven much more righteous than you and me?
---Ruben on 7/24/09


Ignatius,
Isn't Maccabees OT?
Yes, as I recall it is. And that being said, the OT ways are NOT the NT ways.
They aren't under the New Covenant that Christ established.
There is no other high priest except Jesus Christ now.
Why are you holding on to something that Jesus has clearly changed?
We are to follow Christ, because He is the perfect sacrifice. Why do you keep disobeying what He has commanded us to DO and NOT to do?
You do realize that disobedience causes eternal damnation if you do not stop and repent don't you?
By the way, I am not saying the OT isn't significant, just that Jesus made changes with his death and resurrection. Not sure why RCC isn't on board with this truth, but still praying they change!
---miche3754 on 7/24/09


No, but I would say to you may the Lord grant mercy to him or her on that day
---Ruben on 7/23/09


So Ruben, are you saying this to me as a live person or dead person? You mean, you thing Paul was praying to Mary or the RCC Saints to give tht message to the Lord?
---kathr4453 on 7/24/09


In the beginning of the verse Paul says "May the Lord." I'm not sure he was praying at all or just making a statement of hope.
---Jeanette_Nimick on 7/23/09


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Miche. I am not misinterpreting Holy Scriptures. That is what Holy Scriptures states. But because it doesn't agree with your beliefs, you have to discard them.

Second, Jesus Christ nowhere said that we can't pray for the departed or that we can't ask the Saints/Angels in Heaven to pray for us. I believe it will best not to put words into Jesus' mouth.

We are not being disobedient to Jesus Christ, for he said nothing in which you are proclaiming. In fact, praying for the departed goes back to the OT, 2 Maccabees.

Miche, I have found Jesus and the Apostolic Church of the East. I suggest you find Ancient Christianity within the doors of Eastern Orthodoxy. Then you will be in the Fullness of the Faith.

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 7/23/09


Ignatius,

I am saying that according to history, RCC(established in Rome, by a Roman Pagan worshiping Emperor) mixed and contaminated the truth to RCC.
Jesus clearly says not to worhip or pray to anyone BUT God and only in Jesus' name.
To disobey this command so blatantly is sin.
And RCC disobeys by praying to/for the dead.
Praying in the name of Mary(she was a mere human but will discuss later). RCC has raised Saints and Mary to the level of Christ when that is sin. To pray to anyone but God is sin. Scripture says so. You aren't arguing with me, you are arguing with Bible and truth. I pray you turn and repent for it too.
---miche3754 on 7/23/09


Miche. I don't care about the pagans. But if you want to go there so be it. If you study Christianity and pagaism, you find many similarities. For example, scattered generously throughout the myths of the ancient world is the strange story of a god who came down from heaven. Some tell of a god who died and rose for the life of man (i.e., Odin, Osiris, and Mesopotamin corn gods). Just as the Garden of Eden story and the Noah's flood story appear in many different cultures, something like the Jesus story does too.

Does this mean the writers of the Bible took pagan stories and change them around? Most believe so. Most think that the fact there exist many mythic parrallels of Biblical stories point to the falsehood of them.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/23/09


Ruben, if you are talking to me directly, would you look in my face and say...

"may kathr grant Bob to find mercy from kathr on that Day".

I don't think so.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/09

No, but I would say to you may the Lord grant mercy to him or her on that day
---Ruben on 7/23/09


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Ignatius,
I am not ignoring scripture. I am simply stating that you and the RCC have misinterpreted scripture.
Jesus (the way, the truth and the life) says NOT to pray to anyone BUT God and only in HIS(Jesus) Name.
What part of that do you and RCC NOT get?
You praying to Mary and your saints is in direct disobedience(SIN) to God. Jesus says so.

Why do you obey man and man's tradition instead of God?
Try Jesus and maybe you would know the truth.
---miche3754 on 7/23/09


Miche. You are keep ignoring Scriptures to stand by your ideas. We know from Holy Scriptures that the Saints in Heaven are aware of us and pray for us, and that the Holy Angels present our prayers to God (Rev 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4). What part of those Scriptures you don't understand? Aparently, you do not have the Book of Revelation in your Bible.

We are never commanded to pray only for the living. Praying for the departed goes back to the OT, 2 Maccabees (removed by Protestants). It was not started by the RCC has you and Rob would like us to believe. You have no historical proof to back up your claim, just want other anti-Catholics told you. Where in the Bible does it say the Saints in heaven can't pray for us?

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/23/09


Ruben, if you are talking to me directly, would you look in my face and say...

"may kathr grant Bob to find mercy from kathr on that Day".

I don't think so.
---kathr4453 on 7/23/09


Ignatius,
What I wrote IS biblical.
Yes the Saints are in Heaven, but are they praying for Us? Where in the Bible does it say "The Saints IN HEAVEN" are praying for us?
Again brother you have misunderstood the scriptures concerning this matter.
We are to pray for the Saints(us who are in Christ) that are alive right now going through. Not the dead. The dead have already run their race for God and await the resurrection.
THe RCC has taken PAGAN rituals and infused them into the worship of God. And on judement day you will pay the price for disobedience. We are to pray only to God in the name of Jesus PERIOD!
The dead saints can't answer prayer and they can't carry prayers to God. Only Jesus can.
---miche3754 on 7/23/09


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What should prayer sound like? Does God only hear prayer when a certain protocol is followed?
John 11:41-42: "... Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."
2 Timothy 4:2: "Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."
Should it not be, in all things, coming or going, saying or thinking, all in all "watch and pray"? Was Paul praying? Yes, I believe he was. Our whole lives should be a prayer or should be in prayer
---Nana on 7/23/09


kathr4453* Ruben, Paul is not praying at all, he's writing a letter to Timothy.

I hope when I pass, people will remember and say nice things about me.

Hopefully, someone will also pray and say may the Lord grant her mercy on that day lets also hope that they are not writing but really praying.


Kathr* You see, we talk directly to the Lord when we pray.

And how is saying made the Lord grant him mercy on that day not talking directly to him(Lord)


Kayhr* We wouldn't pray..."may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day"

Why, says who?

kathr* He's not talking to the Lord, he's talking to someone else ABOUT the Lord!!

What is he saying about the Lord?
---Ruben on 7/22/09


- may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day --" and yes he is not praying to the dead but praying for the dead!
---Ruben on 7/22/09


Ruben, Paul is not praying at all, he's writing a letter to Timothy.

I hope when I pass, people will remember and say nice things about me.

You're reading more into it than scripture here is stating.

If Paul were actually PRAYING for this person, the prayer would sound like this.

Lord, will you grant xxxooo mercy. You see, we talk directly to the Lord when we pray.

We wouldn't pray..."may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day"

He's not talking to the Lord, he's talking to someone else ABOUT the Lord!!
---kathr4453 on 7/22/09


Ruben...I just re-read this whole 2 Timothy 1 and can find nowhere anyone is even suggested as dead.

We also see Paul's final greeting as he closes this letter in 2nd Timothy ,Paul re-iterating again his blessings on the household of Onesiphorus at the closing.

---kathr4453 on 7/22/09

Try here : "Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, he was not ashamed of my chains, but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me(All past tense) -- may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day --" and yes he is not praying to the dead but praying for the dead!
---Ruben on 7/22/09


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Ruben...I just re-read this whole 2 Timothy 1 and can find nowhere anyone is even suggested as dead.

We also see Paul's final greeting as he closes this letter in 2nd Timothy ,Paul re-iterating again his blessings on the household of Onesiphorus at the closing.


2 Timothy 4:19
Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus.

Can you find anywhere Onesiphorus is even dead? I can't, but maybe I missed a verse that said he was dead.

Paul in 2 Timothy starts his letter to Timothy concerning those who betrayed him, and those who were faithful to him and the Gospel.

How on earth did this become interpreted as praying to the dead.???
---kathr4453 on 7/22/09


"The apostle mentions the constancy of Onesiphorus, he oft refreshed him with his letters, and counsels, and comforts, and was not ashamed of him. A good man will seek to do good. The day of death and judgment is an awful day. And if we would have mercy then, we must seek for it now of the Lord. The best we can ask, for ourselves or our friends, is, that the Lord will grant that we and they may find mercy of the Lord, when called to pass out of time into eternity, and to appear before the judgment seat of Christ"
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
---Nana on 7/22/09


Miche. Again, We know from Holy Scriptures that the Saints in Heaven are aware of us and pray for us, and that the Holy Angels present our prayers to God (Rev 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4). What part of those Scriptures you don't understand? Also, I am not part of the Roman Catholic Church. And whether you accept it or not, some of what you believe are fused by statements started by anti-Catholics.

Praying for the departed goes back to the OT. It was not started by the RCC as Rob would like us to believe. Nothing I said is anti-biblical. I suggest you study Ancient Christianity. Jesus did not say we can not ask Saints or Angels in heaven to pray for us. What you wrote is non-biblical !
---Ignatius on 7/21/09


"The Lord grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus for HE OFTEN REFRESHED ME, and was not ashamed of my chains, but when he was in Rome, he eagerly searched for me, and found me.

The LORD grant to HIM to find mercy from the LORD on THAT DAY...Judgement day I believe Paul meant here and you know very well what services he rendered at Ephesus."


Miche, where do you get Paul is asking for Onesiphorus to be resurrected like Lazarus? I don't see that at all.

It's almost like something someone will say at a funeral. He also asks the Lord to bless his family...( the household of ....)

Did I mis-understand your previous post here??
---kathr4453 on 7/21/09


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We know from Holy Scriptures that the Saints in Heaven are aware of us and pray for us, and that the Holy Angels present our prayers to God (Rev 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4)
- Ignatius

Sorry brother but JESUS carries our prayers to the Father not Angels. Angels do God's bidding to answer our prayers.

You still have it backwards, and whether you believe it our not, Roman paganism is in fused in the RCC religion.
Jesus clearly says PRAY TO THE FATHER ONLY and in Jesus name Only. What part of the Son's command to us do RCC not understand?
And why are RCC continuing to be disobedient in this one significant thing?
No prayers to ancestors or dead. Only to God and through the name of Christ.
Pretty simple.
---miche3754 on 7/21/09


Ecclesiastes 9:5..."the dead do not know anything"

This does not teach the silly doctrine of Soul Sleep. What prooftexting! One must understand the context of the entire book. King Solomon wrote this book from a earthly perspective (what he saw "under the sun") as the first chapters indicate. It does not teach about the afterlife.

Ecclesiastes which is a rhetorical expression of pessimistic doubt with a last ray of faith and hope cannot be cited as authoritive, as the overall context indicates:

Life is meaningless attitude (Eccl 1:2),
Admonitions to eat, drink, and enjoy life (Eccl 5:18, 10:19),
Indifference about morality (Eccl 7:16-17). Read your Bible.
---Ignatius on 7/21/09


Then why did Paul pray for Onesiph'orus if that is Paganism?
---Ruben on 7/20/09

Because
1- You are misinterpreting what Paul was doing. He was doing the same as Christ did over Lazarus- for God to bring him back. Paul was not praying to or for Onesiph'orus. He was praying to his heavenly father to do a miracle.

And
2-CHRIST SAYS SO!!!!!
And that is enough for me.
---miche3754 on 7/21/09


Praying is a form of worship. The bible is clear that we are to worship only God. So, to pray to anyone but God is to worship someone other than God.
---Linda on 7/20/09


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So where are the supporting verses?

It's easy to pick one verse and assign pagan practices to it

verse 18 ....The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day

which day?

simple twist of words to make Gods Truth appear to support a pagan thing

Gods Truth always stands

prayers to the dead are not supported in Gods Holy Word ...only pagan christians continue this tradition of men Mark 7:7
---Rhonda on 7/20/09


miche3754. Nothing I have said is anti-Biblical. Latin/Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and other other Eastern Christians simply pray for the departed, and ask those in Heaven (Saints and Angels) to intercede unto God for our behalf (As you ask another Brother or Sister in Christ to pray for you). It is perfectly natural. They are still part of the Body of Christ (The Church). Read 2 Maccabees.

We know from Holy Scriptures that the Saints in Heaven are aware of us and pray for us, and that the Holy Angels present our prayers to God (Rev 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4)

Praying for the departed is part of Judaism and Ancient Christianity. I am not in error. I suggest you study Ancient Christianity.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/20/09


Scripture tells us " that once you DIE , the dead know nothing ". There time is up . If they havent excepted Jesus [ after He was born ] ,they are lost..
To be nice only the ignorant would practice this silly belief...and there are a lot of them out there...
READ your bible ...
---jerry on 7/20/09


Pierre* Remember: the dead know not anything ECC 95

If the first verse is absoulte, than the next verse should as well " 9:5: neither have they any more a reward"

Well there goes the resurrection and the rewarding of the righteous(Rev 20:11-13-21:6-7)

Pierre* In the grave there is no remembrance of God. Ps 6:5

Revelation 6:9-10 . . . I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne, they cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?"

---Ruben on 7/20/09


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Rob, Amen brother!

I am not against the RCC as a whole,just some of their doctrine that got tainted with Roman Gods worship.
Like praying to ancestors and to/for the dead.
The only time Jesus prayed for the dead was to resurrect them.
The Bible clearly states that when we pray, we re to pray to our father in Heaven(Lord's Prayer- simple, look it up. Jesus gave it as instruction for ALL prayers).
And to pray in HIS NAME- JESUS.
The Lord's prayer is the sructure we are suppose to use when praying to God, our father.
Not mary nor ancestors nor dead. Only to God in the name of Jesus.
Lets pray that they see their error and turn from it before it is too late.
---miche3754 on 7/20/09


You make it sound like Paul and Jesus was praying to the dead. The dead don't know anything that the living is doing. ---Steveng on 7/19/09

Tell that to God himself:

" And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, taliking to him"(Mtt 17:3)

"I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

"'And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

Sounds like they know what's happening!
---Ruben on 7/20/09


Same for the Apostles. The only one we are supposed to pray to is God in the name of Jesus! We don't pray to or for people who are already dead. THAT IS PAGANISM!
---miche3754 on 7/17/09


Then why did Paul pray for Onesiph'orus if that is Paganism?
---Ruben on 7/20/09


Rob "what you wrote sounds like the distorted, perverted, and false teaching which began with The Roman Catholic Church."

What you wrote sound like the distorted, perverted, and false teaching which began by anti-Catholics. Praying for the departed goes back to the OT, 2 Maccabees (removed by Protestants). It was written before Christ was born. The Early Church (1st-11th centuries) believed in praying for the departed.

We do not follow only what was written, 2 Thes 2:15. Praying for the dead is essential in Judaism and Ancient Christianity.

In IC..XC,
---Ignatius on 7/20/09


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Ruben ... the two cases you quote on 7/16 are praying FOR for the dead, and not TO the dead.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/18/09

The Bible shows us that prayers from the earthly saints to the heavenly saints are meant! Revelation 8:3-4

"And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer, and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
---Ruben on 7/20/09


Sorry Ruben, but the Bible does not mention anyone being dead in these scriptures. This is yet another example of how mental gymnastics may distort a scripture to supposedly support a false belief.
---jerry6593 on 7/20/09


Ignatius, what you wrote sounds like the distorted, perverted, and false teaching which began with The Roman Catholic Church. Please show where what you have written is found in the Bible, Acts 17:11.
---Rob on 7/19/09


Rob "those who say the are they are praying to or for the dead, have the people they are praying for come back to life...."

Rob, when Latin/Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and other other Eastern Christians pray for the departed, we are not praying for them to be resurrected, although if God wills it, it will be done. Those Saints who have departed from this world, are forever in the presence with God, and His Angels. Ancient Christianity has always pray for the departed and ask for the intercessions of Saints and Angels in heaven (read all the Ancient Divine Liturgies). It is part of all Ancient Eastern Churches of the East (i.e, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc).

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/19/09


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Ruben: "It was started by Jesus and the Apostle:..."

You make it sound like Paul and Jesus was praying to the dead. The dead don't know anything that the living is doing. The purpose of the prayer (to God) was to resurrect the dead and use it as a miracle by God as a witness that God surely does exist. That was the purpose of all the miracles.
---Steveng on 7/19/09


Rob "Praying to the dead....was started by the Roman Catholic Church."

Anti-Catholic Propaganda.

In truth, however, praying for the dead and asking the Saints/Angels in Heaven, goes back to the Old Testament, 2 Maccabees. Of course, this book is not included in your Protestant Bible (even though all other faiths have them), so I will further say that praying for the dead and asking for the intercession of Saints/Angels is backed up in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, from the 1st-11th Century, who weren't "Roman Catholics". For 1,500 years, this was believed by all! All Ancient Churches (Rome, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and other minor Eastern Churches) still believes this.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/17/09


Carla "iF PRAYING FOR THE DEAD WAS VIABLE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR SALVATION!"

How so? Praying for the dead is simply asking God to have mercy on their souls, that He will grant them eternal rest "in the bosom of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," that He will extend His unfathomable love upon them, and that He will receive them into that state "in which there is neither sickness, nor sighing, nor sorrow, but life everlasting." It is the duty of the members of the Church to pray for one another. We ask God that what sin [s] he or she committed may be forgiven through his Great Mercy.

Praying for the dead is essential in Judaism and Ancient Christianity.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 7/18/09


He was certainly not praying TO the dead, but to the Lord.

He was praying for the household of Onesiph'orus, and they probably were not dead.

We are not told that Onesiph'orus himself was dead.

Ruben ... the two cases you quote on 7/16 are praying FOR for the dead, and not TO the dead. And they were for the restoration of the people to physical life (a healing of recent death) and not to influence God's judgment about them.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/18/09


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Paul is not praying to dead O. He is wishing that O's service to Paul be remembered by the Lord when He shall make up His final number of the save.

Remember: the dead know not anything ECC 95
In the grave there is no remembrance of God. Ps 6:5
---Pierre on 7/17/09


Miche, there are many, many, things we disagree on. It is good the know we are in total agreement with each other on something. :)

Ruben, those who say the are they are praying to or for the dead, have the people they are praying for come back to life, or are they still dead?
---Rob on 7/17/09


iF PRAYING FOR THE DEAD WAS VIABLE THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR SALVATION!
---Carla3939 on 7/17/09


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