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The Blood Of Jesus Christ

This blog is about the BLOOD of Jesus Christ. Your comments are invited.

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 ---mima on 7/22/09
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//Genesis 1 is equally and literally clear the world was created in 6-days.

__________

Likewise, John 6 and 1 Cor 11 are equally and literaly clear that the Communion is truly the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

To deny this is to be a mere SELECTIVE literalist.
---Cluny on 8/17/09


Lee-never seen an ecclesiastical platter. Is that akin to the platter JTB's head was served on? Sounds gooey!

Romans 16:17 'I urge you brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned.' Your view is contrary to Scripture therefore it is you who divides, and the reason is obvious.

When challenged on other matters you fire back with Scripture, as there is Scripture to support some of your views. However as regards creation day-length you are Scripturally silent. Your silence 'shouts.'

Surely it must be tax time again when we receive blessed relief!
---Warwick on 8/16/09


Lee your comments are absurd.

God used exactly the same words to describe His 6 creation days as He did to describe the Israelites 6 working days. Exactly!

Considering your bold statements you must therefore provide Scripture which directly (not by inference) says the six days of Genesis one are of different length to the 6-days of Exodus 20: 8-11. If you can't then your bold statements are false.

You write 'what is really clear is that the world was really created in 6 periods...'

Do you see the word 'periods' in Genesis or are you simply inserting that into the text?

You are a very rude man, who attempts to ridicule anyone who dares disagree with you.
---Warwick on 8/16/09


//Genesis 1 is equally and literally clear the world was created in 6-days.

To those of us who would study the Bible, especially Genesis, what is really clear is that the world was really created in 6 periods, the duration of which the record does not specify.

Do you see the words '24 hour' in Genesis or are you simply inserting that into the text?

Frankly, I do not have any problems with anything in the Bible, however, with some interpretations I do, as all too often some interpretations are based upon some kind of ASSumptions. One very good example being that the 1st 3 days of creation had to be of 24 hour duration when the record very clearly does not specify any time duration.
---Lee on 8/16/09


//Lee divisiveness is created by those who willfully reject God's word, to conform with worldly thinking.

Quite the contrary, Lee's divisiveness (if you can call it that) is created by those who willfully accept without question what has been served to them on some kind of ecclesiastical platter.

The non-thinking Christian has always had problems with those who study and think. Look at the Reformers, for instance, when they challenged the ecclesiastical establishment.
---Lee on 8/16/09




Lee divisiveness is created by those who wilfully reject God's word, to conform with worldly thinking.

Should we reinterpret other sections of Scripture to avoid division with those who conform to worldly thinking?

For example Romans 1:26,27 seems clear in its condemnation of men who burn with passion for each other. Should we reinterpret this Scripture so as not to be divisive?

Genesis 1 is equally and literally clear the world was created in 6-days. Should we reinterpret this so as not to be divisive with those who will not accept Scripture, trusting rather in 'intellect?'

As regards Genesis, the foundational book, see Psalm 11:3 'If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?'
---Warwick on 8/16/09


Warwick //I only highlight the obvious. You will not accept all of Genesis as revealed truth, and not for Biblical reasons.

What I obviously will not accept is your determination to say that the record specifies a 24 hour duration for the first 3 periods of Creation when in fact, it does not.

Perhaps you simply enjoy being divisive and sowing discord among Christians and argue just for the sport of it. Proverbs 10:23 KJV.
---Lee on 8/15/09


Lee you are a puzzle. You do claim to be a Christian but reject sections of His word for no good reason.

'Like most of the children of Hagar, you continue to judge and condemn other Christians that just happen not to fit into your mold.'

What hypocrisy! Though I am not bothered by it, in fact am encouraged by it, you attempt to ridicule me. Then you falsely claim I condemn you! I only highlight the obvious.

You will not accept all of Genesis as revealed truth, and not for Biblical reasons. How can I say this? Because though often challenged to give Biblical support for your views you cannot!

Regards my preaching in SDA churches, your comments plainly reveal your mallicious attitude.
---Warwick on 8/15/09


//Nonetheless you claim you follow Him!

Like most of the children of Hagar, you continue to judge and condemn other Christians that just happen not to fit into your mold.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

I would wager that when you preached in those SDA churches you spoke of, the entirety of your sermon was condemnation on other Christians.

In your folly, you do violence to the Word of God.
---Lee on 8/14/09


Lee in reality Genesis 1:5 alone defines the length of the first ever 24hr day and therefore every other 24hr day since. Opposite to what you say we only know the length of the last 3 creation days because we know the length of day one! Likewise because of Genesis 1:5 alone we know the length of the 7 days, of Exodus 20: 8-11 and every 'day' since!

Ironically you supplied the Holman Bible Dictionary quote which confirms Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day! But now you reject your own evidence!

You prefer mans unproveable fables to the word of the perfect infalible God who was there, creating without any human input or 'intellect' needed!

Nonetheless you claim you follow Him!
---Warwick on 8/13/09




Lee we can determine from Scriture how old earth is.

By Scripture we determine:

Jesus died and rose again.
That we, by God's unmerited favour, through our Lord Jesus, are saved from hell.
By the same Scripture, the same measure of faith, we determine by Biblical genealogies that from Adam to Jesus was approximately 4,000 years. And Adam was made at the beginning of the creation in which we live. As Adam was made at the beginning we can by faith 'know' the earth is but a few days older than Adam.

You write of Big-Bang, earth cooling over eons, etc, all unproveable therefore we cannot 'know.' All contradicted by Scripture. You prefer fables of man over the perfect word of God, calling God a liar!
---Warwick on 8/13/09


Warwick - //The question remains: How old do you believe the earth is?

There is no real way to determine that.

The duration of time when God first called the earth into being - maybe as a result of the 'big bang' - a theory developed by astronmers - could have been of very long duration.

Perhaps it took eons for the earth to cool down and adjust until the subsequent creation events could take place.

We realize God is not governed by our concept of a 24 hour day. He created the other universes millions of years ago should tell us that much.

Genesis 1:16 may imply to the simple minded that God waved His magic wand and the stars came into being but we know that their light took years to reach earth.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


John 16:4: "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you."
Man receives in time, not anytime or all the time.
---Nana on 8/12/09

And sometimes right there and then "This bread is my Flesh which I will give to the world" Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."(Jhn 6:51-55)
---Ruben on 8/12/09


//On another thread you gave a definition from the Holman Bible Dictionary which says Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day, the first ever day, 'one day' in Hebrew.

I quoted that for the benefit of our readers since you did not. Perhaps what bothered you is that Holman did not limit the meaning of day to a simple 24 hour periods but gave other meanings.


//It appears neither Scripture nor the dictionary can convince you.

But simple reasoning should convince anyone that the Genesis record does NOT specify the duration of the 1st 3 days. Anyone that can read and think at the same time should be able to see that!
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


Lee if I was a betting man I could have struck it rich regarding the predictability of your reply.

When asked about the age of the earth you avoid the question and talk of the age of the universe. Your age does not come from Scripture but from man's beliefs. You place man above God's word.

But when you give an answer about death Scripture becomes your authority! So revealing.

Where does Scripture say you can pick and choose what you are prepared to accept as Truth?

The question remains: How old do you believe the earth is?

BTW I think you meant to refer to 1 Co. 15:21 which events are based only upon the early events of Genesis being historical fact!
---Warwick on 8/12/09


If God were to tell me, the earth is a nanosecond old. Ill be sure to remind him, of the constant of C! I will also ask him, does a rock have a soul, can a rock die!

If you love something you respect it? You believe it will not lie to you? Only because you love it, not it you! You believe the world and the things in it, and say to yourself, God would not make a lie. And you are right he would not!

Is it not written, love not the world, nor the things in it!
I wonder why this is there! Let me think on it!
Ill get back to you, on it!
God bless you all
---TheSeg on 8/12/09


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Lee1538* Ruben - what I quoted from a commentary regarding how one "eats" Christ's flesh & "drink" His blood is known as literary parallelism.

That's fine, but it still does not make it the correct interpretaion does it?

Lee1538* Hopefully I have been able to enlighten you to the fact that there are interpretations out there that truly make more sense than actually eating and drinking God, that to most of us, is simply foolishness.

You mean like the disciples of that time 'this is hard, who can understand?"(6:60)

Lee1538* Believe what you wish, I will stay on the high road.

Do you mean the road the disciples took? "And they no longer walk with him"(6:66)
---Ruben on 8/12/09


The Passover is a picture of Jesus Christ Who is our Passover, For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us" The slain lambs in Exodus 12:1-13 picture th

Jesus was killed and His blood shed for our sins, "...without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). There can be no redemption without Christs blood. Jesus absolutely had to shed His blood or mankind would have been doomed to Hell for all eternity.

Please look up ALL scripture concerning teh Blood of Jesus Christ!
---kathr4453 on 8/11/09


But yet, when Jesus himself says " drink this cup for "This is my Blood" which will be shed for many "(Mark13:24), all of the sudden it is not his blood!
---Ruben on 8/12/09


Warwick - so how old is the earth? It is clear that the Genesis records truly does not tell us, however, we believe that God created all that there is in the universe and that He is not bound by our concept to a 24 hour day.

Sorry, but there are those of us that think about these things and examine all the diverse arguments.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


Isn't this blog about the Blood of Jesus Christ?

The most awesome chapter in the Bible is Hebrews 10. Right after I was saved, it seemed as though the Lord permanently branded, or wrought in me or what ever you want to call it this chapter. Even after 30 years, it becomes more and more precious. The layers and layers and depth of spiritual truths here are incredible.

Actually, when you realize it, the whole book of Hebrews centers on the Blood of Jesus Christ, and actually ENDS the whole letter in Hebrews 13:20 & 21 with the summary of the whole letter, RE: BLOOD!.

Hebrews 11, Abel's sacrifice etc, etc....WOW. You know CULTS hate Hebrews, and CULTS can be easily identified if you really KNOW this Epistle!
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09


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Warwick - //Question: 1) How old is the earth in your view?

According to Genesis God created not only the earth but also the starry skies (Gen. 1:16).

However, any knowledgeable astronomer can tell you that there are universes created billions of years ago and that the light as we see it now, from those sources is millions of years old.

Furthermore, they tell us that there are galaxies that are still being created and formed.


2) Did death enter the world because of Adam's sin, or was it there already?

See 1 Cor. 15.

You really need to fire your simple minded mentors and start thinking for yourself, apparently you are locked into beliefs that are based upon unreliable presuppositions.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


John 16:4: "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you."
Man receives in time, not anytime or all the time.
John 16:7: "Nevertheless I tell you the truth, It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you, but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
What need is there for the Comforter if we can fill-up with the real McCoy?
---Nana on 8/12/09


Lee it is amusing to see you quoting Scriptures as if you believe them to be Truth, while treating the foundational book Genesis as if it isn't also Truth. Odd!

On another thread you gave a definition from the Holman Bible Dictionary which says Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day, the first ever day, 'one day' in Hebrew.

You now disagree with the definition you gave, saying the first day was not 24hrs?

It appears neither Scripture nor the dictionary can convince you.

Question: 1) How old is the earth in your view?

2) Did death enter the world because of Adam's sin, or was it there already?
---Warwick on 8/11/09


The Passover is a picture of Jesus Christ Who is our Passover, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even CHRIST OUR PASSOVER is sacrificed for us" ***1st Corin 5:7. The slain lambs in Exodus 12:1-13 picture th

Teh Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. Jesus was as a lamb without spot nor blemish, He was perfect. Jesus was killed and His blood shed for our sins, "...without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22). There can be no redemption without Christs blood. Jesus absolutely had to shed His blood or mankind would have been doomed to Hell for all eternity.

Please look up ALL scripture concerning teh Blood of Jesus Christ!
---kathr4453 on 8/11/09


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Thank you Lee1538, excellent Scripture for the point at hand. Here two more, John 16:29-30 "His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
"ask thee...", Jesus was most poignant when asked as in provocation, jest or with invalid excuses.
---Nana on 8/7/09

So when the disciples said " This is hard, who can understand?"(6:60) He let them walk away!(6:66) Jesus explain many times when the disciples did not understand, this time they understood him correctly, thus Jesus ask "Do you also want to go"(6:67)
---Ruben on 8/11/09


Ruben - what I quoted from a commentary regarding how one "eats" Christ's flesh & "drink" His blood is known as literary parallelism.

Hopefully I have been able to enlighten you to the fact that there are interpretations out there that truly make more sense than actually eating and drinking God, a view that to most of us, is simply foolishness.

Believe what you wish but I will stay on the high road.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


Lee1538 * We need only observe the parallelism between John 6:40 and 6:54 to see that 'beholdeth' and 'believeth' (6:40) are parallel to 'eatheth' and 'drinketh'(6:54). Jesus was clearly not talking about a ritualistic act, but about believing in his atoning death on man's behalf.

Lee want us to believe that 'beholdeth' and 'believe' are the same thing as 'eatheth',Flesh, blood and drink w/o giving the reason except that we believe in his own fallible interpretation of scripture

Lee1538* It is unfortunate that some have misinterpreted these verses in ways designed to place the salvation of their subjects in their hands instead of in God's hands.


Please practice what you preach!
---Ruben on 8/10/09


Yes, the Pharisees did take him literally when they should have had the good sense to understand that He often spoke figuratively.

John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

You may not realize it but the spiritually blind cannot see. 2 Cor. 4:4
---Lee1538 on 8/7/09


" This bread is my Flesh that I will give to the world"(Jhn 6:51) Did not Jesus give us his Flesh for us? According to you it is no, it was figuratively, so reread 2 Cor 4:4!
---Ruben on 8/10/09


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Thank you Lee1538, excellent Scripture for the point at hand. Here two more, John 16:29-30 "His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God."
"ask thee...", Jesus was most poignant when asked as in provocation, jest or with invalid excuses. That, "give us his flesh to eat?" was not what started him but rather, 'what sign, what work you do that we believe?', "Our fathers did eat manna".Even extremely poignant when his disciples repplied, "Increase our faith"!
---Nana on 8/7/09


Ruben - //If you notice on both of those scriptures that no one question him at all, But on John Chapter 6 they did question him and said "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (John 6:52)

Yes, the Pharisees did take him literally when they should have had the good sense to understand that He often spoke figuratively.

John 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

John 16:25 I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father.

You may not realize it but the spiritually blind cannot see. 2 Cor. 4:4
---Lee1538 on 8/7/09


John 10:9: "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Good thing the chapter explained that to be a parable, for people don't graze. Now, John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." Has anyone ever grown grapes out of their ears? Was it a parable?
---Nana on 8/7/09

If you notice on both of those scriptures that no one question him at all, But on John Chapter 6 they did question him and said "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (Jhn 6:52)
---Ruben on 8/7/09


Mima. Perhaps in many Protestant Churches, but all the Ancient and Apostolic Churches of the East still follow the Ancient and Biblical tradition of celebrating the Holy Mysteries (Holy Communion) weekly.

Actually, it is not silly to believe that when one receive the Holy Mysteries, that in a complete mystery, one receive the Holy Body and Blood of Christ. This is what Holy Scriptures teaches (1 Cor 10:16, 11:18-31, Christ words in Gospels) and the Early Church (1st-11th centuries) believed this. Even Martin Luther believed this, although a little different than the Roman Christians. It was not until the Protestant Reformer Huldrych Zwingli, that the modern view of many Protestants prevailed.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/7/09


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Ruben,
Your question referring I don't believe Jesus's words,is Border-line judging.I won't give the devil a place in going that direction.
Quickly,I forgive you because I've been forgiven.Matt6:14-15
You MAY see Jesus being the only Bread that gives eternal life.I'm not the judge of your studies,I TRUST The Holy Spirit teaches,period.
(1Cor2)
I only subject a study on idioms,figure of speech,Metonomy used in scripture.
All Jn 6 references this.
Vs56-58
This is that bread...
Vs60 some disciple understood.
Ex:
Jer15:16
They word were found,and I did eat them...
Ezek.2:7-8
But thou,son of man,hear what I say unto thee,Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house,
open they mouth and eat.
---char on 8/7/09


Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Chapter 6, 110 A.D.:
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God ... They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.

Ignatius was personally trained by Peter and John.
---Greyrider on 8/7/09


It is interesting that the Roman Church while emphasizing that one truly eats the actual flesh of Jesus, that they ignore their other directives on not eating meat during 'holy days'.

Another silly thing is the belief that while one may not eat meat during holy days, they can eat fish. But have they ever wondered if fish was also a meat?

But that is what the religious do to salve their conscience and make themselves feel good.
---Lee1538 on 8/7/09


"It is totally silly to believe that Christ offered His actual flesh for us to eat. "

Silly yes and worse, to know what is really taught in many of the churches you might for an example asked this of a friend who happens to be a Lutheran. On communion Sunday does the attendance at your church increase? Increases by about 25% on average have been noted.
---mima on 8/7/09


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"Jesus is asking us to believe in him, so how come you don't believe in his words?"
---Ruben on 8/6/09
That reminds me of another time you said to me, "Then you don't believe the Bible.", on account of a doctrinal difference between us.
John 10:9: "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Good thing the chapter explained that to be a parable, for people don't graze. Now, John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." Has anyone ever grown grapes out of their ears? Was it a parable?
---Nana on 8/7/09


It is totally silly to believe that Christ offered His actual flesh for us to eat.

We need only observe the parallelism between John 6:40 and 6:54 to see that 'beholdeth' and 'believeth' (6:40) are parallel to 'eatheth' and 'drinketh'(6:54). Jesus was clearly not talking about a ritualistic act, but about believing in his atoning death on man's behalf.

It is unfortunate that some have misinterpreted these verses in ways designed to place the salvation of their subjects in their hands instead of in God's hands.

See Studies in the Gospel of John "Light in the Darkness" by Homer A. Kent, Jr. page 108
---Lee1538 on 8/6/09


Unless you BEIEVE IN HIM(not eat him)YOU will perish.
Jn6:47-48
VERILY,VERILY,I SAY UNTO YOU,HE THAT (BELIEVETH)HATH EVERLASTING LIFE.I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE.
---char on 8/5/09

Amen, however Jesus goes on and says "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed." So Char why do you stop at v47-48? Jesus is asking us to believe in him, so how come you don't believe in his words?
---Ruben on 8/6/09


Nana* Ruben * "Notice ... "This is my Body"(breaking of the Bread) by looking at that bread they saw Jesus!"
In no Bible version did Jesus say, "This is my Body" or anything about "looking at that bread they saw Jesus!", rather it was in the "breaking of bread".

In Luke 22:19 it reads " Took the bread...broke it (Breaking of the bread) and said "This is my Body" and in Luke 24:35 it reads " How they were known to him in the breaking of the bread(This is my Body)
---Ruben on 8/6/09


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Jesus blood! We are free because of the blood of the lamb. We are healed. So much happened threw the blood of jesus. Redemption. Communion is in rememberence. This blog is not about communion. The blood is power!!!
---Sunnie on 8/6/09


Ruben * "Question: If something is a remembrance..."
Question: Do you honor your Father and your Mother only in their presence?

Ruben * "Notice ... "This is my Body"(breaking of the Bread) by looking at that bread they saw Jesus!"
In no Bible version did Jesus say, "This is my Body" or anything about "looking at that bread they saw Jesus!", rather it was in the "breaking of bread".

Ruben * I response like Thomas did "My Lord and My God"
The Savior of the World have become your own personal savior? Sorry, but that saying of Thomas had nothing to do with seeing Jesus by "looking at that bread". Is Church a building full of strangers?
---Nana on 8/5/09


ALL John 6 gives meaning...Miracle of the FIVE loathes of bread and TWO fish...5 represents Grace,2 is division,unless two agree.
Manna eaten,and stilled died.Jesus Christ, The manna from heaven(idiom)BELIEVE IN AND LIVE EVERLASTING.
John6:27 Labour not for the MEAT which PERISHETH,but for that MEAT with ENDURETH UNTO EVERLASTING LIFE,which the SON OF MAN SHALL GIVE UNTO YOU,for HIM hath GOD THE FATHER (SEALED).

Matt4:4
he answered and said,
"It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,but by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD"

Unless you BEIEVE IN HIM(not eat him)YOU will perish.
Jn6:47-48
VERILY,VERILY,I SAY UNTO YOU,HE THAT (BELIEVETH)HATH EVERLASTING LIFE.I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE.
---char on 8/5/09


Lee1538* His body was sacrificed once and for all time and need not be continually sacrificed (Hebrews 9:7f).

Passage Hebrews 9:23-24:

"It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these"

Passage Hebrews 13:10:

"We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle."
---Ruben on 8/5/09


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Lee1538 * Ruben - yes, the nature of the Eucharist has been a subject of debate for centuries.

Not much of a debate as JND Kelly writes:"....the eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian SACRIFICE from the closing decade of the first century, if not earlier.(Early Christian Doctrines, page 196-198, 214)
---Ruben on 8/5/09


Nana * 16th Century, evokes history, so why not read a bit from that given by one of the earliest and foremost church historians, Luke?
Luke 22:19: "... this do in remembrance of me"

I do "This is my Body" right before remembrnace and also right after "This is my blood which will be shred for you" Let me ask you a question...Paul writes in 1 Cor 11:29-30 "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." Question: If something is a remembrance how can that cause damation to himself and weak and many to sleep?
---Ruben on 8/5/09


Nana* Luke 24:35: "And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread."
Note that he was "known of them", (His real presence),in the act of "breaking of bread".

Notice when Jesus said "This is my Body"(breaking of the Bread) they recognize him, interesting by looking at that bread they saw Jesus!

Nana * Tell me my brother, do you feel the presence of your brothers and sisters in you when you take communion?
1 Cor 12:27: "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

No, I feel the presence of my Lord when the Priest says "This is my Body", I response like Thomas did "My Lord and My God"
---Ruben on 8/5/09


In John 6 where is states "Whoever eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life." Are we to take that literally? That sounds cultish...
---erin on 7/29/09

It is not "cultish". The literal meaning is that we are to enter into full communion with Christ through His sacrifice to become His children. I read on a website from a Jewish Rabbi that "the shedding of blood was NOT necessary for atonement, for the Scriptures say 'obedience is better than sacrifice.' While it is true that obedience is better, the Scriptures also teach that NO ONE is able to keep the whole law, therefore we need the blood sacrifice to restore us.
---tommy3007 on 8/5/09


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Ruben,
16th Century, evokes history, so why not read a bit from that given by one of the earliest and foremost church historians, Luke?
Luke 22:19: "... this do in remembrance of me"
Luke 24:35: "And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread."
Note that he was "known of them", (His real presence),in the act of "breaking of bread".
Tell me my brother, do you feel the presence of your brothers and sisters in you when you take communion? Yes? No?
1 Cor 12:27: "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."
---Nana on 8/4/09


Ruben - yes, the nature of the Eucharist has been a subject of debate for centuries.

My position is Christ is present spritually in the Eucharist but not in actual bodily form. His body was sacrificed once and for all time and need not be continually sacrificed (Hebrews 9:7f).

In any case, there is virtually nothing in scripture that says some priest has been given some kind of magical powers to change mere bread & wine into anything else, that much is very plain.

That belief comes from a time when they were trying to figure out how to change base metals into gold. it is basically a supersition.

The words 'hocus pocus' come from what people heard when the priest mummered the words when presenting the Eucharist.
---Lee1538 on 8/4/09


Nana* Simon Peter understood the saying of the Lord, and he did not mention eating and drinking, rather "to whom shall we go" and "thou hast the words of eternal life". How did he understand?

I don't think he quiet understood but instead believe in his words,( "thou hast the words of eternal life") "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."
(Jhn6:54-55)



---Ruben on 8/4/09


The same way the twelve understood other sayings of the Lord, he explained to them, "unto you is given...", which clearly was given in John 6:63.
---Nana on 8/4/09

Yes very clearly but yet from the 16th century on we have Christians saying that Jesus meant symbolic!
---Ruben on 8/4/09


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John 6:68-69: "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

Simon Peter understood the saying of the Lord, and he did not mention eating and drinking, rather "to whom shall we go" and "thou hast the words of eternal life". How did he understand? The same way the twelve understood other sayings of the Lord, he explained to them, "unto you is given...", which clearly was given in John 6:63.
---Nana on 8/4/09


But why can't you exert the same contextual rigor to John 6:63? Would you make believe he was speaking of French Fries, Hot Dogs and Apple Pie when he said "the flesh profiteth nothing"?
---Nana on 8/1/09


Because why would Jesus say "This bread is my Flesh which I will give to the world(Jhn 6:51) and then say this flesh which I will give to the world "profiteth nothing"? Please explain?
---Ruben on 8/3/09


Of courese the requirement is that one must believe a miracle takes place without any evidence whatsoever, but such is the lot of the superstitious and naive.
---Lee1538 on 8/1/09

Lee you sound like them: "They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? (Jhn 6:30)Why do you need evidence? Aren't his words good enough for you?"For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."(Jhn 6:55)
---Ruben on 8/3/09


Although Latin Catholic Churches refuse to delivere the Holy Myteries under both kinds (bread and wine) to the Saints, Eastern Catholics (and all Eastern Churches for that matter) retain this Ancient and Biblical custom. Refusing to give the laity the Cup is a Latin innovation (Post-Schism of 1054AD).

May I add that the Priests/Bishops have no power to transform the Sacred Elements into the Body and Blood of Christ, but it is the Holy Spirit that transforms them through the Priest (channel). Read the Roman Missal and Eastern Divine Liturgies.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/2/09


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Ruben //Where?, Please explain more on this!

Any good church history book should be able to explain that.

I have been to Roman Catholic churches before, in fact, my brother-in-law was a priest and is still a lay minister in that denomination.

All they had to offer is a small breadcrumb claiming that they have the magic power to change it to the very body of Jesus.

Of courese the requirement is that one must believe a miracle takes place without any evidence whatsoever, but such is the lot of the superstitious and naive.
---Lee1538 on 8/1/09


oh Ruben, I am so impressed by you...!
Indeed matthew 15:17 says, "Nothing about eating his Flesh at all!
But why can't you exert the same contextual rigor to John 6:63? Would you make believe he was speaking of French Fries, Hot Dogs and Apple Pie when he said "the flesh profiteth nothing"?
---Nana on 8/1/09


Nana* Jesus himself said, "Whoever eats my flesh" and shortly thereafter says "the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Are you saying that Jesus Flesh profiteth nothing?

Nana* Elsewhere he says, Matthew 15:17: "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?"

Nothing about eating his Flesh at all!


Nana* Luke 22, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." What need of remembrance if the bread becomes the real article?

Are we suppose to ignore the first part "This is my Body"?
---Ruben on 7/31/09


Ruben,
FYI, I did not say anything about 'symbolic', frank_cos did. What is your point then? Jesus himself said, "Whoever eats my flesh" and shortly thereafter says "the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Elsewhere he says, Matthew 15:17: "Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?"
Luke 22, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." What need of remembrance if the bread becomes the real article?
---Nana on 7/31/09


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What is this flesh and blood?
John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John 6:67-68: "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."
---Nana on 7/30/09


FYI, the word Spirit is never use symbolic in scripture. So What words give Eternal Life? Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has Eternal Life"(JHn 6:52-53)
---Ruben on 7/30/09


It is interesting that despite the fact that the Roman church viewed the Eucharistic elements - bread & wine as the very body & blood of Christ essential for eternal salvation, that they withheld the wine from the laity believing it was far to sacred to be entrusted to anyone but the priests.
---Lee1538 on 7/29/09


Where?, Please explain more on this!

Good to hear from you, yet again.
---Ruben on 7/30/09


You got it Nana! Its about belief in his message, broadly. If we all stopped trying to parse each word, and just lived with JC's guidance, we'd all be on the path. Step back...see the beauty!
---frank_cos on 7/30/09


What is this flesh and blood?
John 6:63: "It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John 6:67-68: "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life."

John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
It is about nourishment, about the embodiment of the Word of God.
Ezekiel 3:1: "Son of man, eat that thou findest, eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel."
---Nana on 7/30/09


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Symbolic, symbolic, symbolic!! Come on, no one can literally eat his flesh and drink his blood anymore. Are you serious? What has happened to perspective. Stop looking at the painting from an inch away...back up and see its true meaning and beauty!
---frank_cos on 7/29/09


It is interesting that despite the fact that the Roman church viewed the Eucharistic elements - bread & wine as the very body & blood of Christ essential for eternal salvation, that they withheld the wine from the laity believing it was far to sacred to be entrusted to anyone but the priests.
---Lee1538 on 7/29/09


In John 6 where is states "Whoever eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life." Are we to take that literally? That sounds cultish...
---erin on 7/29/09


blood of new covenant delivers Christians from enemies of sin and death

John 6:53-56 Whoever eats My flesh, and drinks My blood, has eternal life.

It is by blood of Christ we are justified to The Father in heaven

Christ is the lamb in the new covenant for Spiritual Israel unlike ancient Israel with their covenant of the physical blood of an animal

We are saved by Christs life Rom. 5:9-10 ...while we are reconciled to God and justified by Christs blood
---Rhonda on 7/25/09


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God has stated,there is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood,and only jesus was worthy,and acceptable to God.
---tom2 on 7/25/09


THE IMPORTANCE OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

There is a blood line that stretches throughout the entire breadth of inspired Scripture. From outside the gates of Eden in Genesis 4 to inside the gates of the New Jerusalem in Revelation chapters 21-22, the Bible is filled with the importance of the blood of Christ with regard to salvation.
---mima on 7/24/09


A rich man's will.
"I commit my soul in the hands of my Savior, full of confidence that having redeemed me and washed me with His most precious blood, He will present me faultless before the throne of my Heavenly Father. I entreat my children to maintain and defend at all hazards and at any cost of personal sacrifice, the blessed doctrine of complete atonement through the blood of Christ with regard to the believer's salvation." J. Piermont Morgan recognized the priceless value of the atoning sacrifice of Christ's blood shed in His death on the cross."
---mima on 7/24/09


Paul stated that a bloodshed sacrifice was required in what is now recognized as one of many varaitions of an attonement doctrine or a ransom.
Is this not an action of God enacting,executing torture upon his son so many live?
Did Paul personally develop a doctrine that seemed to fit the current day appearance of attonement for sins?
My view is that the act of bloodshed was unnecessary.The act of becoming human was and Jesus did not interfere with the hateful actions of the earthly rulers that tortured him to death.
---earl on 7/23/09


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---Cluny take your pick! As the question says, your comments are invited.
---mima on 7/23/09


Of course, the "BLOOD" itself was very important, but the WATER that flowed from Jesus's body was also important and should not be ignored. Neither should the period of time when Jesus established the new worship temple (three days, John 2:19 and 21).

Jesus became our new worship temple (the outer temple), and the "LIVING" water consecrates/baptizes the inner temple to the outer temple (HIS SPIRIT can only bear witness to OUR spirit)...

Romans 8:16
"it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God".

1 Corinthians 3:16
"Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?".
---more_excellent_way on 7/22/09


Do you mean:

1. Literally as it flowed in His veins or its current status now in His resurrected glorified body?

2. In the Eucharist?

3. As a metaphor or spiritually?

Please clarify.
---Cluny on 7/22/09


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