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Heaven Destroyed With Temple

Josephus describes the earthly Tabernacle as representing Heaven/Earth in Antiquities of the Jews(Book3:Chapter7:Section7) Moses patterned the Tabernacle after heavenly-things (Hebrews 8:5) Why wouldn't other 1st century Jews see the destruction of the Temple in 70AD representing Heaven/Earth passing away? (Matthew 24)

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Lee* Those disciples that left simply

Really, "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name."(Luke 10,1-17)

lee* And he said to them, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God,


No Lee "he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not."(Jhn 6:60-64)

And even today they do not believe! The difference is not because you take his words literly like they did but instead it is because " This is an hard saying, who can hear it?"
---Ruben on 8/26/09


Ruben //So obvious that even some of the disciples left(6:66) and Jesus response was "Does this offend you", from what you wrote it does!

Those disciples that left simply followed Him believing that He was but another religious teacher, not the very begotten Son of God in whom we must believe to have eternal life.

We can read that the 12 main disciples stayed with Him and were not offended as they knew He often speak to them figuretively and often in parables.

And he said to them, To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, so that 'they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand,lest they should turn and be forgiven.'
---lee on 8/25/09


lee * Ruben - //If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.(Luke 16:31)//

Grasping at straws? This passage deals with the teachings of Moses, nothing about miracles of our Lord.

Did the Apostles believe at first about the Jesus rising.

lee* //Does this offend you?. . . among you there are some who do not believe . . .(John 6:61,64)

Not in the least! since it is obvious the stupid Pharisees should have taken Him figuratively instead of literally.


So obvious that even some of the disciples left(6:66) and Jesus response was "Does this offend you", from what you wrote it does!
---Ruben on 8/25/09


Ruben - I disagree, your view is that correct belief is necessary but we are commanded only to take the elements with the proper frame of mind in remembrance of Him.

The 'hocus pocus' stuff is merely superstition designed to control the naive and Biblically semi-illiterate.

The clergy really want you to bow to their authority in their control of your material resources and spiritual life. But spiritually they really do not stand above you in God's eyes.
---lee on 8/25/09


lee* You may not know it but Jesus often spoke using figures of speech. I am the bread of life, the door, the good shepherd, etc. John 10:6, John 16:29.

And you might not know it, he also spoke literally this is my Body, this bread is my flesh, my flesh is food indeed

lee* The command is to do this in remembrance of me, and that is all you really need to know.
Lk. 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24

Then how can something that is a remembrance cause you to be sick and some die(1 Cor 11:30) and lets not ignore the first part of Luke "This is my Body" as so many like to do, you included..luke 22,19



---Ruben on 8/25/09




However, does it really truly matter what we believe about the nature of the elements if we partake such in a worthy manner as the Lord commanded us?
---lee on 8/25/09

Yes it does matter, Paul was very adamant on the Christians of Corinthians who thought that they were eating and drinking the blood of Christ in a worthy matter!(1 Cor 10:14-22) and then tells them "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. " ( 1 Cor 11:30)
---Ruben on 8/25/09


Ruben - //If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.(Luke 16:31)//

Grasping at straws? This passage deals with the teachings of Moses, nothing about miracles of our Lord.

//Does this offend you?. . . among you there are some who do not believe . . .(John 6:61,64)

Not in the least! since it is obvious the stupid Pharisees should have taken Him figuratively instead of literally.

You may not know it but Jesus often spoke using figures of speech. I am the bread of life, the door, the good shepherd, etc. John 10:6, John 16:29.

The command is to do this in remembrance of me, and that is all you really need to know.
Lk. 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24
---lee on 8/25/09


Lee * All the miracles Jesus performed were evident to those who observed them.

If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

(Luke 16:31)


Lee* But in the Eucharist, there is no evidence of anything changing from one substance to another.

"and how he was known of them in breaking of bread."(Luke 24:35)


Lee* only that your argument is lacking any rationale to convince me that Christ is only spiritually present in the Eucharist, not His body parts.

Does this offend you?. . . among you there are some who do not believe . . .

(John 6:61,64)
---Ruben on 8/25/09


Ruben - I can only agree the purpose of examining oneself before partaking the Eucharist is to avoid conflict with the Lord.

However, does it really truly matter what we believe about the nature of the elements if we partake such in a worthy manner as the Lord commanded us?
---lee on 8/25/09


1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

CS Lewis asked this question in one of his books.
---Lee on 8/23/09

The next verse read "For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body." V29

His question probably was How can you eat and drink unworthily if it is symobolic?
---Ruben on 8/24/09




//You are entitled to your belief,

The Lord told us to do this in remembrance of Him. Lk. 22:19,1Cor.11:24

So if we obey that much, what real difference does it make what we truly believe about the Eucharistic elements as long as we truly partake of them in the proper manner?

1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

CS Lewis asked this question in one of his books.
---Lee on 8/23/09


"the church fathers did not have totally agreement on the elements of the Eucharist....others believe it was symbolic [.....]" (Lee).

You are entitled to your belief. I will disagree on the basis that a careful reading of the Early Church Fathers will prove otherwise. Many Church Scholars/Historians, even Protestant ones (such as J.N.D Kelly) disagreed with you on this issue, even on the so called "symbolical" language of some of the Fathers towards the Eucharist, which according to many scholars/church historians, the word had a different meaning in the Ancient World than it does today, so we can't say they held to any modern day symbolical view. J.N.D Kelly explained this well in his classic book.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/22/09


//Which words from Matthew is symbolic?

"Take, eat, this is my body."
---Ruben on 8/21/09

All the miracles Jesus performed were evident to those who observed them.

But in the Eucharist, there is no evidence of anything changing from one substance to another.

Frankly the Roman view is based more upon Aristole's philosophy than the reality found within Scripture.

But I am not offended if you believe the elements are magically changed into the actual blood & flesh of Christ, only that your argument is lacking any rationale to convince me that Christ is only spiritually present in the Eucharist, not His body parts.

We will not see His body until He comes again for His church. Acts 1:11
---Lee on 8/21/09


To take everything in the Bible literally would be totally ludicrous but some people do with some verses such as those who believe wine & bread actually becomes the actual physical body of Christ.(Mt. 26:26)
---lee on 8/20/09

Which words from Matthew is symbolic?

"Take, eat, this is my body."
---Ruben on 8/21/09


Ignatius - thanks for your comments on the Eucharist. However, we should reserve that for another thread.

In any case, the church fathers did not have totally agreement on the elements of the Eucharist, some believed they actual became the body of Christ, others believe it was symbolic or that the spiritual presence of Christ was there in the Eucharist. I subscribe to that last view as I do not believe miracles are something hidden but rather revealed.
---Lee on 8/21/09


As far as the Eucharistic texts taken literally or that the Holy Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ (That the Bread and Wine becomes, in a unexplained matter, the Body and Blood of Christ), there seem to be no problem for the Holy Early Church Fathers, according to many Scholars, including Renowned Protestant Patristic Scholar J.N.D Kelly "Early Christian Doctrines". One will be disappointment to find the teaching of many Protestant Churches concerning the Eucharist (an "symbolical act") in any Father writings.

For an exhaustive study, the older two-volume work A History of the Doctrine of the Holy Eucharist by the Anglo-Catholic scholar Darwell Stone is available through inter-library loan.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/20/09


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"To take everything in the Bible literally would be totally ludicrous but some people do with [....](Mt. 26:26)" (Lee).

I would agree that not everything in Scriptures need to be taken literally, but who to say a passage need to be taken literally and other don't? It is based upon on interpretation (exegesis), and it varies. The Holy Scriptures are not self-interpreted. One interpret Holy Scriptures based upon his or her tradition.

You don't interpret the Eucharistic Texts literally, but the majority of Christians today do, and the Early Christians had no problem either. All the Ancient and Apostolic Churches of the East do as well. Even the Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther, did as well.

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/20/09


//I would like to add that Holy Scriptures are not self-interpreted. The Scriptural texts needs interpretation [s].

Ever wonder if someone would take Jesus' advice to pluck out their eyes or cut off their hands?

Mt 5:29-30 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee...
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


To take everything in the Bible literally would be totally ludicrous but some people do with some verses such as those who believe wine & bread actually becomes the actual physical body of Christ.(Mt. 26:26)
---lee on 8/20/09


Miera. I agree that commentaries are not Holy Scriptures, however in many cases, these commentaries (as a Orthodox, the commentaries of the Early Church Fathers/Saints) does give light to Holy Scriptures.

The commentaries/homilies of the Early Church Fathers, such as the ones of Saint John Chrysostom/Blessed Augustine the Blessed, have led me to understand Holy Scriptures more deeply. They are not Scriptures, but to completely ignore how the Early Christians, especially those closer to the Apostolic Era [like the Apostolic Fathers], read and understand Holy Scriptures is simply foolish in my opinion.

I would like to add that Holy Scriptures are not self-interpreted. The Scriptural texts needs interpretation [s].

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/20/09


//I AM NOT AGAINST READING COMMENTARIES!

Looks like Meira got enlightened.

No one including the most spiritual or best teacher has all the answers or can look at something from all angles.
---lee on 8/19/09


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Again to everyone who is reading.

I AM NOT AGAINST READING COMMENTARIES!

My main point is that they should not be overused while ignoring the author of the scriptures.

Biases in dominations and opinions of commentators can lead to the misunederstanding of scriptures.

How many times on this blog site have people quoted a commentary that is directly the opposite of what scripture conveys. Yet, these people rely so heavily on the word of man that they almost consider that word inspired.

That is my only point. I encourage people to turn off the radio & TV, close the study books, open the Word and see what wisdom Elohim can convey thru his own word to you then verify the commentary by that wisdom.
---Meira on 8/18/09


//We are to depend on the Holy Spirit beyond these resources to get a clearer picture and correct relationship with Yahushua(Jesus). He is the final authority.

And we may say that if you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, He will very shortly let you know if you are out of sink with His will.

So, one should not have to do the religion thing and study, study, study to find out what pleases or does not please God, we need only learn to pray and listen.

Peace.
---Lee on 8/18/09


Meira:

I would like to "weigh in" as a teacher of the Sciptures.

Many times life experience has helped me understand the Scriptures with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture is so deep, you can think of it as an onion, there are many layers and the deeper your walk with Christ, the more layers He will reveal to you. He also reveals layers as you can understand them based upon your life experiences. Why would He reveal to you a spectacular layer on grief, when you have never lost anyone significant in your life? He would not because you are not ready for it.

The Holy Spirit teaches us just like a parent. You must walk before you can run.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/18/09


Meira, you are correct many times Commentaries are used as proof, but when one talks about commentaries there is so many who write them and many times put their own opinions as I see in the NIV commentaries. But nevertheless we need help. First from the Holy Spirit because He will lead us to all truth, whether to other materials or other brothers and sisters who have the answer. We do not have the capacity to remember all things so other great writers who made their life learning about certain topics can help us. God has prepared them for that reason. Our job is to examine what they say with Scripture and make a decision that is not bias at all.
---MarkV. on 8/18/09


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Mark V-
I am not saying that there is not a use for outside resources, but some people tend to use them as if the commentators view is the same as scripture.

I have sat in bible studies, where the commentary is read more frequently than scripture itself.

Everything needs to be read and discerned using the eyes of the Holy Spirit and using actual scripture.
---Meira on 8/17/09


If one is to be an "Eternal Bible student" seeking Elohim's will. They must purposely study the resources that we have all been given as a best attempt by men and women of Jewish and Greco-Roman-Anglo-African biblical heritage to make sense of archeaolgy, history, and Cultural idioms that were spoken and lived during those times. No one is perfect on those all matters, but they are very helpful to guide us to our own theological exegisis!

Most important! We are to depend on the Holy Spirit beyond these resources to get a clearer picture and correct relationship with Yahushua(Jesus). He is the final authority.

To avoid blasphemy and damnation, we need to tread carefully and pray for correct guidance in all things.
---Yochanan on 8/17/09


Meira, while you are right in many things it is still very important, not only to study the Bible ourselves but also study from other materials, because in many cases other materials bring light to many passages. Without that help we could not understand passages that are very important. Just take the simple word "Corban" if a person does not know what corban is he will never know what Jesus was angry about and the importance of the passage. In Mark 7 Jesus upbraids the Pharisees soundly for their concept of corban. Without knowledge of the cultural practices of corban, we would be unable to underestand this passages. And again, who is to say that it wasn't the Holy Spirit who led us to the materials so that we would learn more of God?
---MarkV. on 8/16/09


*A Christian should always do their own Bible research.

Very true and with prayer & supplication that you will be guided into whatever truth that He may want to reveal to you.

And I can agree that religious authority often have their own agenda. Why do you suppose they still teach OT tithing when the tithe was for the upkeep of the temple & the Levitical priesthood.

Tithing has replaced the older sales of indulgences, thro I would believe Christians should give 10% if they are able to do so without taking food off their table.
---Lee on 8/15/09


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//Howbeit,their is a far more studied 'opinion' that what we could ever have. Some of these writers have spent most of the lives dedicated to the study of the word of God.//

Your commentators may have a more "studied opinion" than you, but really there are MANY people that have a lifelong study of the scriptures and are not considered commentators.

Still yet many of these life long studiers have the wrong point of view and are guide by current popular interpretations which may have been thought as herectical only a short time span ago.

My main point is that the Holy Spirit should be our first guide as he has written the the scriptures upon the hearts of those who believe them.
---Meira on 8/15/09


Ignatius,

There are some that we can learn from. However, if we also included some Jewish commentators and historians instead of the just the "greeks". Since it is their history and culture that the bible revolves in.

But I will state my point again, it is foolish to assume that all commentators and bible teachers are sent by Elohim.

What about the NIV versions that have a self-proclaimed "witch" on the writing committee. Was this person sent by Elohim to translate his word.

My point is to justify what the commentators are writing with what the holy spirit is revealing. if the commentators don't match up, then they are wrong.
---Meira on 8/15/09


Ignatius //It is arrogant to think that we cannot gain understanding through the lifelong work of others who have studied Scripture.

Exactly my belief! I praise God for your insight.

The Holy Roller people are generally those who think they hear the voice of the Holy Spirit speaking to them, but all too often what they really hear is the clatter of a multitude of demons telling them they really see while in fact they are blind.
---Lee on 8/15/09


You mentioned that we should be guided by the Holy Spirit ...that Spirit will often send us to those who have developed skills in interpretation of the Word of God.
******

'skillful interpratation' is SIMPLY man made reasoning DUPING many to FOLLOW men and their traditions (Mark 7:6-9)

LIE that HolySpirit is within MENS mixed up RELIGION working with Baptist, Methodist, TeleEvangelist and THOUSANDS of BRANDS of PROTEST-ant daughters from MOTHER rcc Rev 17:5 ...FAILING to recognize all differences create MANY of mens traditions of THEIR 'truth' OPENLY contradicting ONE Truth in Gods Word

Holy Spirit DWELLING within True Christians who OBEY God (not mens skillful intreprations) leads us to ALL Truth John 14:26, 16:13
---Rhonda on 8/15/09


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Everyone, The issue for Galations letter & Acts 15 issue is that "it was addressing" the use of circumcision,ceremonial Law, and customs for Salvation as entrance into Isreal-Exodus12:49 The Torah blood atonement lead to Messiah making final atonment for sins. The Law never taught Salvation by following works alone. Blood atonment was always required!

The yoke of bondage is the "added interpretation of the Pharasees. That's how the Law was interpreted. therefore "bondage".

2 Timothy 3:16-17 all scripture is useful, at the time he is talking about (the Law, Prophets & other Hebrew writings of that time).

Paul was not against wisdom and Hebrew practices from these texts.
Rom 7:7
---Yochanan on 8/15/09


part 2

Obediance to 1st century Apostolic practices obviously will not save you.

It's a non-issue for practicing Christians and Jewish believers who practice works as fruit of the Spirit, not for salvation. James 2:20 & Mark 16:16

*Miera is right on those issues! A Christian should always do their own Bible research.

Commentaries are helpful, but like the Jewish Talmud, they are educated opinions from their "traditional theology". One has to make up their own mind and be fully persuaded in history, archealogy and translation.

Buyer beware.
---Yochanan on 8/15/09


Meira.

He also sent men who have teaching authority within the Apostolic Church (Acts 13:1). Saint Paul recognized teachers as gifts of God to the Church (1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11). This authority has transfer to successors of the Holy Apostles (1 Tim. 5:22, 2 Tim. 1:6, 2 Tim. 2:2, Titus 1:5). These teachers are given by the Lord to help us correctly understand and obey Scripture.

It is arrogant to think that we cannot gain understanding through the lifelong work of others who have studied Scripture (For example, the Early Church Fathers). Saint John Chrysostom Homilies on various books of the OT and NT is a must for any serious Bible student....

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/15/09


//Most commentators give their OPINIONS of scripture based on dominational views.

Howbeit,their is a far more studied 'opinion' that what we could ever have. Some of these writers have spent most of the lives dedicated to the study of the word of God.

While there are differences among commentaries, those called of God as teachers can be expected to base their 'opinions' as solidly in the Word of God as possible with as much justification as possible.

You mentioned that we should be guided by the Holy Spirit. While I can only agree, that Spirit will often send us to those who have developed skills in interpretation of the Word of God.
---Lee on 8/14/09


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The commentaries (at least the good ones), were written by those the Lord has called into the teaching ministry of the church. ---Lee

Most commentators give their OPINIONS of scripture based on dominational views. That is why there are baptist commentators, catholic commentators, saddle-creek commentators,etc. If these teachers of opinions were sent by Elohim why do they disagree on the same passages of scriptures? They are simply mere men with a political view of scripture. Real Teachers were sent by Elohim to so that other may learn how to obey the will of Elohim.

Again, please read the scriptures for yourself and let the Holy Spirit be your guide for He has was sent to write the law upon our hearts.
---Meira on 8/14/09


lee, on issue of conscience.

In Hebrew language, the mind & the heart are the same.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked...

If people follow THEIR conscience they will do what is wicked. This is why Yahushua says there is no one good but Elohim. (Mk 10:8)

Pro18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Pro12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel [is] wise.

Pro10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.


Those who follow their own way will have therir "conscience seared with a hot iron" (1Tim4:2)
---Meira on 8/14/09


//hello meira,
The bondwoman did not represent the instructions. It represented our nature to do things own our own. Abraham tried to gain the promised son his way and failed. that is why hagar is referred to as the BONDwoman. trying to do things your way and not YHWH's way puts youu in bondage
---Reuben on 8/13/09//

Thank you for being polite in your post.

The cermonial laws were then being kept according to man's instructions as the many of the pharisitical jews were not accepting the Messiah as the fufillment of the Torah. I am connecting this passage with Hebrews 10.
---Meira on 8/14/09


//And you are telling me I should ignore those the Lord has given to the church for our benefit? Get real!!!
---Lee on 8/14/09 //

I am stating that you should not take the words of men as greater than the Word of Elohim. Put down the commentaries and read the scriptures for yourself with the Holy Spirit being your guide and interpreter.

Besides, who has said that your commentators were sent by God?

---Meira on 8/14/09


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//the bondwoman represent instructions that were no longer necessary because of Messiah's death at the stake-the ceremonial laws.

Such as the OT Sabbath, a ceremonial law?Sabbath observance has to be learned behavior, not something by nature.

Do you not find it interesting that the Gentiles who followed their conscience instinctively do what the law demands and that without the Sabbath?

Romans 2:14f So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts. Their consciences testify in support of this, and their competing thoughts either accuse or excuse them...
---Lee on 8/14/09


Meira - //Stop looking at commentaries and read the scriptures-then you would not have the need to wager.

The commentaries (at least the good ones), were written by those the Lord has called into the teaching ministry of the church.

In fact the Lord has given us teachers so that "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ...That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive" Eph. 4:11-14

And you are telling me I should ignore those the Lord has given to the church for our benefit? Get real!!!
---Lee on 8/14/09


the bondwoman represent instructions that were no longer necessary because of Messiah's death at the stake-the ceremonial laws. Hebrews 10:4,10
---Meira on 8/13/09

hello meira,
The bondwoman did not represent the instructions. It represented our nature to do things own our own. Abraham tried to gain the promised son his way and failed. that is why hagar is referred to as the BONDwoman. trying to do things your way and not YHWH's way puts youu in bondage
---Reuben on 8/13/09


PART 1
I would wager you find no reputable commentary that agrees with your viewpoint.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


Stop looking at commentaries and read the scriptures-then you would not have the need to wager.

the "bondwoman" coexisted with the "freewoman". the bondwoman represent instructions that were no longer necessary because of Messiah's death at the stake-the ceremonial laws. Hebrews 10:4,10Remember the Torah is written about Yahushua. (Hbrw 10:7)

The Torah is not bondage-thus James wrote about the "law of liberty" (1:25)
---Meira on 8/13/09


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I also suppose that

Yahushua (Jesus)
Peter
Paul
John
James

the "founding" christians

also had "unorthodox" views -that the commentators wouldn't agree with- about sabbath and torah keeping as they kept the sabbath and torah laws.

Perhaps you, in all your ideas, do not need Elohim's instructions (aka TORAH), but I prefer to follow them as the Saviour did because the torah is a lamp unto my feet and light unto my path (Ps 119:105) and because the wisdom of man is foolish to Elohim (Rom 1:22, 1 Cor 1:20)
---Meira on 8/12/09


Meir - Were the childen of Hagar Egyptians?

Gal. 4:24f Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery, she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

Obviously not! since Scripture is very plain that they are those of Mt. Sinai, not Egypt, those in bondage to that ministry of death craved on stone (2 Cor. 3:7)

You really have distorted Scripture to fit your erroneous viewpoint. I would wager you find no reputable commentary that agrees with your viewpoint.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


Meira - Gal. 4:24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery, she is Hagar. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

One has to be either of the old Covenant represented by the children of Hagar or of the New Covenant represented by the children of the promise to Abraham. One cannot be both.

Obviously to support your view on Sabbath keeping, dietary laws, etc. you have to be a child of Hagar since there is nothing in the New Covenant of the church (the covenant of promise) that supports any of your unique and unorthodox views.

Sorry, it is too simple to see that you have little or no wriggle room to agrue about it.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


Those of Hagar were slave children from the Old Covenant Mt. Sinai while those of the Promise thru Abraham were free.....---Lee1538 on 8/10/09

First of all, the literal children of Hagar were gentiles (Egyptians), the literal children of Abraham througth Issac and Jacob became the children of Israel -a portion of those are Jews. We are grafted into Israel when we accept the same redemption offered since the beginning of time: blood. The blood of Yahushua is enough to cover after His one sacrifice and for all people. (Hbr 10:10)

Second of all, the law does not enslave any one, but sets delivers them out of bondage. Ex 20:2, John8:36. (Remember Yahushua is the living Torah).
---Meira on 8/11/09


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Part 1
Lee- circumcision was viewed "that way" by So called converted Pharasee and Essene Oral traditionalists. They started the whole cofusion and false doctrine. Paul was ticked off by this. Tenants of Moshe's Moav Covenant are seen in conversiion of the heart, not flesh. repentance (Duet.30:2, 8) circumcised heart (verse 6, 15, 19) Jer 31:33 in New Covenant.

Romans 2:29 thus some see themselves being a Jew and Isrealite by that circumcision.

Ethnic salvation is not Yahushua's Covenant.
---Yochanan on 8/11/09


//We all should observe the instructions (Torah) given to us at Mt Sinai. Yahushua said so himself. Jhn14:15.

You might try reading Galatians 4:22f where the comparison is made between the children of Hagar and those of the Promise. Those of Hagar were slave children from the Old Covenant Mt. Sinai while those of the Promise thru Abraham were free.

Sorry but we became Christians we did not become Jewish and thus are not enslaved.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


I would wager that he has no source that can be verified from a historical or biblical standpoint, simply that what he has offered is either his own or someones opinion designed to support a bias and untrue position. Lee1583

It appears that you have lost your wager based on Yocha's response of using scripture and it's original language!
---Meira on 8/10/09


...If one was circumcised, then there was an obligation to observe the Mosaic law and all unique Jewish ordinances. Lee1583

We all should observe the instructions (Torah) given to us at Mt Sinai. Yahushua said so himself. Jhn14:15.

Besides that, what's wrong with the Mosaic Law in your book. Elohim himself that it is not too hard for us to do and keep(Dt 30:10-14, Mt22:37). He gave it to us in love, not just at Mt Sinai, but at the beginning. (1Jhn2:7,24).

Extra ordinances added to scripture was not intended to considered Yah's instruction (Dt4:2). This is why Yahushau contended with the Pharisees. (Mt15)

Study El's word for yourself and not tradition. (Mt15:9)
---Meira on 8/10/09


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Simple Answer, Josephus is not God. I am under the impression that Mark 13:31 refers to heaven as in the physical sky above us, not the abode where Christ is at the right hand of the father. The sky and the earth will eventually pass away.
Only once in scripture do we hear of a third heaven (the abode with God) Paul witnessed in his trance. There is no other reference in all of scripture. Hmmmmmmm
The more I learn from this wonderful forum the more I found out how much I don't know.
---larry on 8/10/09


Lee-Thanks for the oppurtunity to prove my point.I make no opinion of historical and biblical fact.

Acts 15:21 refers to Gentiles going to the synagouge where Moshe is read.

In the NIV Bible & God's Word translations At Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day verses 16 and 26 shows Gentiles were present in the synagogue with Paul. It was a normal occurance for God fearing (gentile converts) to go there for their foundation of faith class.

KJV & other translations Gentiles were called God-fearers because they were already attending the synagogue
and to learn the Jewish tradition. They were not fully in the Jewish
community.


Judaism and the Gentiles By Terence L. Donaldson. pg 582 gives detatils.
---Yochanan on 8/10/09


//You got me wrong! A judaizer preaches circumcion salvation.

And circumcision was the entrance rite into Judaism. If one was circumcised, then there was an obligation to observe the Mosaic law and all unique Jewish ordinances.

Church historians tell us the Hebrew faction of the church continued to practice much of what was Judaism under the leadership of James.

James was murdered by the Jews and his brother Simeon took the leadership. It was under his leadership that the Hebrew Church fled to Pella (70 A.D.) where the Romans captured and killed Simeon. (See Revelation Four views, a parallel commentary by Steve Gregg).

Thus the leadership fell to the Gentile church which did not advocate adherence to Judaism.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


//It is historcally clear that 1st century believers did go to synagogues and made their own houses of study(Synagogues) to which the church models.

I do not believe history supports that contention. In Acts we read of many of the conflicts occured after Paul taught about the gospel in the synagogues. In most locals, Christians were expelled from the Jewish dominated synagogues and established house churches.

Unfortunately, the conflicts between Hebrew and Gentile Christianity continues to this day with those that preach one should walk by faith versus those that preach obedience to law.

Yes, I can see this discussion is not really benefiting anyone. I will take the initiative and stop posting for a season.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


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Meira - Sorry but you really need to realize that there are some on these forums that read books and have taken courses on theology and Christian history.

As such we would very much like to be able to check the source of such statement as Yocha made that the church was to go to the Jewish synagogues to learn about Sabbath keeping.

I would wager that he has no source that can be verified from a historical or biblical standpoint, simply that what he has offered is either his own or someones opinion designed to support a bias and untrue position.

Am I criticizing the god he worships or simply rebuking what may constitute a false assertion?
---Lee1538 on 8/9/09


Lee-thanks for the apology. My feelings were not hurt. I was just shocked at the escalation of agression in your posts at sabbath keepers. I don't have anything against you. Those opinions are yours. not mine. God will judge who is a fool in the end... Mine is to forgive like Jesus(Yahushua) taught me and hope you understand in Love.

You make your points in an emotionally domineering way in application of greco-roman constantine traditions over the bible.
---Yochanan on 8/10/09


Lee-
You got me wrong! A judaizer preaches circumcion salvation. I never posted anything like that! That is foolishness and false doctrine. I don't follow Talmud. although there are some interesting things in it along with things that are opinions of men like your views and other Christians.

It is historcally clear that 1st century believers did go to synagogues and made their own houses of study(Synagogues) to which the church models.

LOL! to your view of me. I get called a "Goiyn pagan" by some Jews for my witnessing to them and Judaizer by people like you when I don't keep mixed pagan feasts.LOL. To Elohim be the Glory to all!
---Yochanan on 8/10/09


Yocha - all you need to convince yourself or anyone else that the Jewish synagogues were not the place Christians gathered to learn about the Sabbath keeping is to read any reputable book on early church history.

Sabbath keeping was NOT taught in the early Christian church and the church no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath by the end of the 1st century.

In fact, some of the early fathers totally detested the idea that Christians need observe the Jewish Sabbath.

Sorry, if I hurt your feelings, but I am entitled to my opinion that your view is foolish and stems from the influence of modern day Judaizers.
---Lee1538 on 8/9/09


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//You really need to get real and get away from fools that preach the garbage you are posting.
---Lee1538 on 8/7/09

WoW Lee. If this is the LOVE of your God, I am glad to say that I don't know your him.

I do know the God that Yochanan has blogged about. Yochanan has only stated the truth written in the Bible- if you call that garbage then you should take that up with the on true Elohim -the author & finisher of the true faith.
---Meira on 8/8/09


Lee-If you are adressing me, let me know. I noticed you made disrespectful comments toward me on other blogs that got shut down.

You appear to be upset and have some emotional investment over Acts 15 & Sabbath History.

Christians can disagee in a respectful way without the agression in your comments.

The Temple was where the partitian of seperation existed between Jews and Gentiles. Not synagogue usually.

Many synagogues did accept goyin-converts to the Jewish faith and many synagogues were used by early beleivers who were Jewish to discuss the "Way" of Yahushua. They did meet there to discus the Gospel. Synagouge is a house of study with 10-11 men (minyon) in each ancient town.
---Yochanan on 8/8/09


//In connection with acts 20th verse new Gentiles converting to Yahushua(JESUS) were to go to synagogue and learn on the Sabbath as well the application of the Law in their lifestyles.

Christians were barred from attending synagogues late in the first century and most Jews were antagonists to Christians.

You really need to get real and get away from fools that preach the garbage you are posting.
---Lee1538 on 8/7/09


Emet 1

Jose,
there was no need for the 2nd Temple Levite Priesthood and the Temple sacrifices for Atonement since Messiah had come around 30 years before. We are of the Melchelzidek Priesthood of Messiah.

Seems Messiah did say it was going to be torn down. Mat 24:2

There is also a story in the Jewish Oral traditon of the red cord that is put on the scapegoat not turning white along with other mysterious occurances. Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b

It meant YHWH(GOD)did not accept their sacrifice anymore. Why? Messiah did it on the execution stake(CROSS). Leveticus 16 (Yom Kippur) Hebrews CH 9 & 10.

---Yochanan on 8/4/09


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Why wouldn't other 1st century Jews see the destruction of the Temple in 70AD representing Heaven/Earth passing away? (Matthew 24)Jose***


Jose, Because it hasn't!
Jose, did heaven and earth pass away in 70AD?
The elements burned up?

If it did, you must be saying we are now in the New Heaven and Earth, where no evil can enter??

If we are, what a disappointment. When I look around, Satan still seems to be roaming around seeking whom he may devour. We have earthquakes, volcano eruptions, hurricanes, tornado's, famine, disease DEATH, and so on.

Doesn't sound like the description of the New Heaven and Earth.
---kathr4453 on 7/31/09


I don't know because the temple will be rebuilt a third time and Christ is not returning before its reconstruction.
I imagine at that time it was hard for citizens to imagine what we now take for granted with the completion of scripture and biblical education resources not available for the 1st century Jews.
They were right because the earth has not passed away and the skies above (heaven)is still in tact.
Its also important to remember that Josephus is not on par with a Godly narrative of what did happen.
---larry on 7/29/09


I agree, it is an obvious sign. What is the significance of the sign? Why did the 2nd Temple have to be destroyed?
---jose on 7/29/09


The Temple was destroyed on "the same day" both times(423 BC and 69-70 AD).

It was obviuosly a sign.

Many Jews & some Messianics remember this in the Month of Tammuz and end of July called TISHA B' AV Fast of AB.

Many of that time were into their added traditions that obscured the meaning of the Law and Prophets. they were blind in part...romans 11:7..others...well..Elohim is the judge.

Yahushua is our atonement and High Priest and we are His Melchesidik priesthood Hebrews 7-9 chapters.
---Yochanan on 7/28/09


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This seems to be off topic. The original question was about heaven and earth not a third temple. I looked up those verses and found what Jose is saying interesting. Who else has read these verses?
---monty on 7/28/09


Thanks for the input Cluny, however, "passages in Revelation SEEM to..." does not answer my request for scriptures. I have done my homework in the NT and the OT and I do not see scriptures for the building of a 3rd Temple, that why I asked you to please supply them. All I see is Jesus predicting the destruction of the 2nd Temple. Thanks
---Jose on 7/27/09


\\cluny- ...If a temple is built to replace the one destroyed in 70AD, that one will be the anti-Christ one, right?
---Betty on 7/23/09


Cluny, please give scriptures that prove there will be a 3rd temple built. ...
---Jose on 7/23/09\\

Passages in Revelation seem to say that a third temple will be built.

I do agree that animal sacrifices, if they ever had any salvific effect, will have none in the third temple.

God seems to allow a lot of things that are not His perfect will.

Do your own homework, Jose. I've pointed you in the right direction.

I see betty agrees with me--this third temple (from what I see in Revelation) is the Temple of Antichrist.
---Cluny on 7/23/09


The 2nd Temple was built under the direction of Zerubbabel. Then renovated by King Herod.

Interestingly, the rebuilding of 2nd Temple began less than 100 years or a few generations from the destruction of the 1st Temple.

If there is a 3rd Temple (scriptures please), why is taking so long to be built and then destroyed again within a few years, according to the end time view of today?

Where are you getting that it's called the Anti-Christ's Temple? (scriptures please) If that's the case then it CAN NOT be considered God's Temple or counted as the 3rd Temple or the Mosque sitting there now should count as the 3rd Temple.
---Jose on 7/23/09


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cluny- Solomon built the first temple, but who built the second one? If a temple is built to replace the one destroyed in 70AD, that one will be the anti-Christ one, right?
---Betty on 7/23/09


Cluny, please give scriptures that prove there will be a 3rd temple built. I hear people say this, but I think they only assume there has to be one. Where is it Scripture? Plus, why would God allow animal sacrifices to begin again after Christ already paid the price?
---Jose on 7/23/09


Don't forget that the Temple was basically a glorified slaughterhouse. Some people seem to imagine it was a site principally for cantatas and revivals.

With the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ its earthly purpose has been fulfilled.

The Third Temple will be the Temple of Antichrist.
---Cluny on 7/22/09


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