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TULIP Biblical Or Not

What is TULIP? And why do people think it's wrong or right?

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Kathr, again you are wrong and I can go on everyday correcting you and also bringing the Truth out to correct you.
The kingdom of God is not within you when you are lost. You are called lost because you are no where near God.
When a lost person is born of the Spirit by God, he is in the kingdom of God. And when he is in the kingdom of God, in the presence of the Lord, he is able to confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord. He cannot do that millions of miles away from Christ. Separation from God is spiritual death. You need to study what rebirth means, and then go from there.
---MarkV. on 8/12/09


Kathr, I wrote what Scripture had to say about your false theory and those were only a few of hundreds of passages that say you are wrong again. You see it but you don't understand it, you read but you refuse to accept it. You who call others heretics. I just wonder what else you have to say that is false.
Why don't you get a grip on yourself and start studying before you write. Ask God to forgive you for what you have done, writing false words about His word, and ask Him for illumination so that when you answer you answer correctly this way you will not mess up His Word. I will pray for you.
---MarkV. on 8/12/09


1."Even as He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him" MarkV**

Paul is talking here about the CHURCH, not individuals. The CHURCH is the Mystery kept secret from before the foundation of the World, not individual believrs.

Read ALL of Ephesians all the way to the very end of the book, you will see, Paul is talking through out Ephesians about this mystery..the CHURCH, not Israel, or that the Church replaced Israel, or any of that.

As Eve was taken from Adam's Rib, so the Church is taken from Jesus, and is one with Him. You see, Eve was not separately created out of the clay person as Adam was.


THIS, you don't understand!
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09


You said, "The Holy Spirit brings you into the kingdom" that is what I was saying. You have people who are not born again in the kingdom. In fact going in and out whenever they want without rebirth. What good is rebirth?
---MarkV. on 8/11/09

Actually MarkV, I said the complete opposite. Now, if you can't correctly read my posts and interpret correctly, how do you expect anyone to take you seriously.

No only do you mis-interpret peoples words, you too mis-interpret scripture RE 1 Cor 2:14 and add your own words that are not there.

Calvin was a heritic
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09


You said, "The Holy Spirit brings you into the kingdom" that is what I was saying. You have people who are not born again in the kingdom. In fact going in and out whenever they want without rebirth. What good is rebirth?
---MarkV. on 8/11/09



The Holy Spirit doesn't bring you in the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is withing you. It's the NEW creature IN CHRIST who enters.
---kathr4453 on 8/10/09


MarkV, you have a problem mis-interpreting/twisting peoples posts, as well as scripture. You lose so much credibility when you do this.and it is often!
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09




Kathr, you said, "Yes, God knew in advance (before the world began) who would one day trust Him, and He predestinated them to be conformed TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, but NOT to salvation. God NEVER chooses anyone to be saved."
As I said before, Scripture speaks against your teachings?
1. "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundations of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him"
2. "No one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him"
3. "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide"
---MarkV. on 8/12/09


Kathr 2:
4. For we know, brethren beloved by God, that He has chosen you, for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction."
5. God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the Truth. To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ"
6. "Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He has promised to those who love Him?"
7. "So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy"
---MarkV. on 8/12/09


As always MarkV, you and your cronies miss the mark with your generalizations. Not all men rejected, nor today reject the Gospel. John 1:12: "12: But as many as received him..." What water means as in born again of water and of Spirit, it is not about drinking nor bathing nor magic water but rather is the WATER that cleanses the heart and whichthing is the word of God (John 15:3, Psalms 119:9-11):

Luke 1:17: "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
---Nana on 8/12/09


The Holy Spirit's task to convict THE WORLD of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Yes, God knew in advance (before the world began) who would one day trust Him, and He predestinated them to be conformed TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, but NOT to salvation. God NEVER chooses anyone to be saved.

Calvin taught infant baptism and that the Sacraments were EQUAL with the Word of God. Calvin taught baptismal regeneration/Born Again. Calvin insisted he was Born again at his own infant baptism.

So then, how is it if Infant Baptism brings regeneration, as many teach, can this also be GOD CHOOSING your salvation....at your infant Baptismal you were chosen/born again???

Was Calvin on crack or something?
---kathr4453 on 8/11/09


Nana, if you had read the whole context you would have read, John 3:19-20 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, (darkness) and men loved darkness rather then the light, because their deeds were evil." As you can see that the Light (God) had to come into the darkness, (the lost who are in darkness). The darkness could not come to the light because their deeds were evil. God said, "that everyone practicing evil hates the light." All those in darkness hates the light, (God).
---MarkV. on 8/11/09




Those who believe Born Again means to be Begotten Again to a living Hope through Jesus Christ,begotten Sons/Children through Jesus Christ,we know our Born Again experience comes through Calvary, through Jesus Christ Himself, buried with Him and baptized into His death and raised up with Him in Resurrection Power NOW. The NOW is our Born Again experience.

But those who would misappropriate the term Born Again as some special magic wand the Holy Spirit waves over the privilege elect to enter the Kingdom of God without being justified first in His Son,justification again is not the New Birth completely overthrow the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations calling us to repent FIRST.

They're double-talkers!
---kathr4453 on 8/11/09


Kathr, if you had looked further you would have understood the word of God.
"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, nor can he know them,(did you hear that?) because they are spiritually discern." 1 Cor. 2:13,14.

You said, "The Holy Spirit brings you into the kingdom" that is what I was saying. You have people who are not born again in the kingdom. In fact going in and out whenever they want without rebirth. What good is rebirth?
---MarkV. on 8/11/09


Kathr 2: I can understand Nana not following the doctrines because RCC does not believe in a person been born again. They believe water will cure their fallness, and their hearts but water only cleans the outside of the person.
But everywhere you turn Scripture speaks against you. It is God who gives mercy, man do not have mercy on God by choosing Him. It is not by the free will of man but of God.
"But as many as receive Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believed in the name," And who were those who believed and became children of God? "who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" John 1:12,13.
---MarkV. on 8/11/09


A fatal flaw is to believe that man enters the kingdom by going from zero to born of the Spirit and unto the kingdom. Man must be born of water first. The order, man believes and doeth the truth first. That was JtB's call. See John 3:21. "He that doeth truth cometh to the light". That is the order of things.
---Nana on 8/10/09


"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discern"MarkV**

MarkV, you are running around in circles avoiding the questions I have asked you.

First of all, this verse in 1 Corinthians 2 is not in any Bibles I have looked up, KJV, NIV even the Living Bible does not say this.

What version are you quoting from? Or did you put this in your own words?

The GIFTS of the spirit here in this verse is not even in the original Hebrew text. It's THINGS of the Spirit!

The Holy Spirit doesn't bring you in the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is withing you. It's the NEW creature IN CHRIST who enters.
---kathr4453 on 8/10/09


Kathr, what you are suggesting is, fallen people choosing Christ before been born again. This suggests that unregenerate people are seeing and entering the Kingdom of God. "For the moment a person believes Christ he is in the Kingdom." How can a man enter the Kingdom without been born again? Jesus pointed out to Nicodemus his need to be born of the Spirit. He was still in the flesh. The flesh yields only flesh. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing. You have people in flesh in the Kingdom of God.
If a person who is still in the flesh, who is not yet reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit, can incline or dispose himself to Christ, what good is rebirth? This is your fatal flaw.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09


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"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discern"MarkV**

MarkV, that verse is not talking about Salvation.

The GIFTS(Plural) of the Spirit are only given to the BODY of Christ anyway...after one is saved...

Now if the verse said, that the unsaved man cannot understand the GIFT( singular) of Jesus Christ, who died on the cross for our sin and rose again, ...but this is NOT what that verse is saying. The Gift of salvation is not the GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT!!!!

The Eunuch Acts 8, did understand with his own understanding and Philip's instruction concerning Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/8/09


Kathr, for your information, people who are lost cannot understand Spiritual matters. They are spiritually dead. You said,
"he wasn't born again FIRST to understand. NO scripture backs that up anywhere!
I do not play with Scripture. God's word is very clear. Now listen to this please and I will only put it down for others to see what is Truth,
"The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discern"
All who are lost are unspiritual. It is not that they refuse not to, but Scripture says, "they are not able to understand them"
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


Kathr 22, and since you are smart enough to understand those passages now the question is, what has to happen to the unspiritual man to understand? He has to be born of the Spirit. If he is not born of the Spirit he is unspiritual. Simple discipleship teachings. It is not even argumentive. Calvin did not say it, God did, through His Word.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


MarkV, you are the one who tried to trick around with the scripture. You said, Does that sound like a man that is LOST.....I said Yes. You were implying any pious/religious person is not lost. The OPPOSITE of LOST is SAVED MarkV, there is no in between.

Cornelius was LOST, and we see the testimony of Peter before the Council telling the other Jews that SALVATION has come to the Gentiles. Cornelius was SAVED from being LOST WHEN he heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ, BLOOD, Crucifiction, & resurrection, and placed his faith in Jesus work on the cross. he wasn't born again FIRST to understand. NO scripture backs that up anywhere!

---kathr4453 on 8/7/09


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Kathr, please listen to what you write, Cornelius was lost and then saved, Of course he was lost at some time. All that are saved were lost before they were saved. Is that a trick question or answer?
---MarkV. on 8/5/09


MarkV, Acts 11, state Cornelius and his household were LOST, and found salvation in the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus death and resurrection life. The Jews were amazed God granted salvation to Gentiles! WOW!!!!

Acts 11: 17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



Are you also saying his household was SAVED TOO prior to HEARING the Gospel? What based on Cornelius's devoutness?


Believe what YOU will MarkV!!! I believe Scripture!
---kathr4453 on 8/5/09


Anne .. Thank you.
Can you find where I have said those things which are alleged ?
Myybe I have forgotten saying them?
Maybe someone has being using my ID?
But no, it can't be either of those two, unless my computer screens out the posts
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/4/09


Kathr, I will use a quote from a famous guy here, "Believe what you want to believe"
If it makes your day to believe Cornelious was lost, Great. I want you to feel good for the day. You will do what you feel is correct even when it is incorrect. But it's bringing pleasure to you so go for it. I can only answer as to what Scripture teaches. Everything else is out of my hands.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09


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Hello? does this sound like someone lost? do the lost pray to God? Do they fear God? I don't think so. Sorry Kathr, you picked the wrong man to make your point. ....MarkV**

Part 2

Cornelius, the FIRST Gentile SAVED was in fact LOST according to the Gospel. If God could in fact HEAR Cornelius prayers, ( God cannot hear the prayers of SINNERS) there would be no need for Jesus who came to reconcile us to God. No one can come directly to God except through Jesus Christ.
---kathr4453 on 8/4/09


Hello? does this sound like someone lost? do the lost pray to God? Do they fear God? I don't think so. Sorry Kathr, you picked the wrong man to make your point. ....MarkV**

Cornelius is the perfect example of no such thing as depravity, why because Colnelius, just because he prayed to God was not saved UNTIL Peter shared the Gospel. If this man was already saved, no need for Peter whatsoever, or the Gospel, but maybe it was YOUR holy spirit?? and not Jesus Christ that saved him...before he was saved. And with now reading your other blog and this answer, you say no one actually needs Jesus to be saved. So the Holy Spirit that come to Cornelius after hearing the Gospel was what?....the 2nd blessing of speaking in tongues? No such animal!
---kathr4453 on 8/3/09


GOD does not have to wait for man. He knows our answer because He knows us. But he does not make us answer in a certain way.

You see TULIP is where GOD forces people. The teaching is about a god of force who sends people to hell because he does not want them to go to heaven. But the Bible teaches GOD wants people to go to heaven. He is not willing that any should perish.

We are made in the image of GOD. So he gives us free will. Through the power of the HOLY SPIRIT all are called upon to repent. The GOD of love and fairness does not use force. He calls us by love.
---Samuel on 8/3/09


Alan isn't a whiner and complainer...he's a truth seeker.
---Anne on 8/3/09


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Back to the question, what is TULIP? What that means is that when the Arminians introduced their "five doctrines", to the State of Holland in the form of a "Remonstrance" which means "protest." They insisted that the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism (the Official expression of the doctrinal position of the Churches of Holland) be change to conform to the doctrinal views contained in the Remonstrance. Failing to reconcile their teachings with Scripture, instead of just rejecting them, the Synod of Dort answered with five doctrines, each to answer each one they introduced. Each one creates what is the Tulip. Which are known as "the five points of Calvinism"
---MarkV. on 8/3/09


Alan, it must be hot in the U.K, the question is, when will you cease your whinning and complaining, and began to answer with Scripture? You are a grown man, not a child. I try to have peace with you but you will not allow it.
You stated that man has free will. I stated that if someone obligates God it is wrong. That He is not obligated to anyone. I suppose you are doing that since you were the one who answered.
I stated if man has free will, God would then seat waiting for your love, as a begger waits to be helped. If God seats waiting that means He does not know He will be chosen, which is impossible because He is Omniscience who knows all. You refuse the Truth so you complain. And your integrity takes a blow.
---MarkV. on 8/3/09


Alan 2: instead of just talking about me why don't you answer with Scripture so that everyone can learn from you? You spend more time complaining to me then you do in making your point. I don't mind answering you if you are not going to get upset everytime I do answer. When time is spend away from God on other matters it is because some force and not God, is working between brothers and sister not only to divide but to take away our view from God. I told you before wasted time is sin. Take a deep breath and get back to what really matters.
---MarkV. on 8/3/09


Mark ... it's closed because it's full, not because of anger

These are some of the things you have said of me and others

So call believers, not unbelievers, argue that God has no right to do what He wants

Kathr and others have obligated Him to a law of man

And you claim we have said
....God begs for man's mercy
....God's hands are tied
....God can do nothing
....Man is in control

You said I had obligated God to give free will or else

Where has anyone said any of these things?

NOWHERE ... When will you cease your lies?
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/2/09


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"Matthew also speaks of Cornelious."
MarkV. on 8/1/09

Did you just made that up, or is it that you think that there was only one centurion?
---Nana on 8/2/09


Kathr,
"Cornelious was a certain man in Caesarea, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God" with all his household, who gave Alms generously to the people," and prayed to God always,"
Hello? does this sound like someone lost? do the lost pray to God? Do they fear God? I don't think so. Sorry Kathr, you picked the wrong man to make your point. I told you you needed to study. It will come to you.
Matthew also speaks of Cornelious. There Jesus said, "I have not seen such faith" his faith was even stronger then the disciples. He already believed in Jesus and His power, Jesus said "And as you have believed, so let it be done for you"
---MarkV. on 8/1/09


MarkV ... What's in a word? If you don't like accusations, let's try misrepresentations, lies, fabrications.

Soviet communists used such tactics to discredit and eliminate their opponents, even in the same party. Christians should not stoop to do this.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/1/09


Alan, I read Matthew 1:1 it talks about the book of genealogy of Jesus Christ.
I read John 21:25 it speaks about many things Jesus did that were not recorded. Nothing on what we discussed. And again it is your choice to follow whatsoever you like.
Second, I don't remember saying, "Alan you are this or you are that." I do remember saying you and I had a lot in common, but disagreed in Scripture.
I believe when I say something you take it, it is you I am speaking to. Do you feel some kind of conviction? Actually when I answer to questions you are not even in my mind. What's on my mind is to do the best I can to answer correctly, because even if people don't like it, it is still Truth. I fear the Lord Alan, not anyone else.
---MarkV. on 8/1/09


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Sorry Alan, the blog has been closed. Too much anger in those post. People are getting so upset that the website is closing some questions. People are accusing others of accusing them of accusing others. Just a lot of Christians waking up angry for some reason or another.
The simple thing to do is to take a deep breath, open our hearts to Christ, ask for the Spirit to bring light to God's word and began the morning with a lot of Godly love and a positive attitude of things, and when someone answers something bad, we can pray for them so that God can change them.
Then try to teach them if they listen, and if not, just go on to the next question.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09


MarkV ... You refer to the other blog ("God created to torture in hell)

It would help if you wnet to that blog, and answered the question asked of you.

And you have not justified the accusations you made on this blog about what people had said.

When have I or any of the others made the statements of which you have falsely accused us?

You know we did not say those things. Is that why you won't answer?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/31/09


Amen Mark, thats where our faith comes in, to trust in the One who knows all things and in His forever Word.
---Tony on 7/31/09


Cornelius, a Gentile, does not fit the description of total depravity . Nor was Cornelius the first Gentile in scripture to have an understanding of God (and with God), which provoked him to action or prayer. An Angel, messengers of God, brought Cornelius to Gods attention. We see, Cornelius was not Born Again first of the Holy Spirit to understand or desire to have a relationship with God!

Then, there are people like Samson's mother, Esther, John the Baptist's father, and Mary the mother of Jesus, who had not been doing anything extra to seek God within their Jewish birthright and culture , and whom God also sent angels, again messengers, long before He honoured Cornelius' prayers.
---kathr4453 on 7/31/09


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Alan, the gospel is full of God giving choices. I do not argue against that. Everyone has a choice, and is responsible for that choice. When he is judge he will be judge by the choices he made in life or else he would not be judge.
But the Bible tells us that the will of fallen men is in bondage to sin. It is not free. His will is to do his fathers desires, that is the devil. John 8:42 says, "If God were your Father you would love Me" and later says in v.44, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."
Accusing you again? what a mistake I make when I answer you. But I checked and I didn't see anything in my answer to hurt your feelings.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09


Thank's Trey and Tony, more are coming forward to defend the Sovereign right for God to choose whom He pleases when He pleases. Your comments are so very welcome.
Even the beginning of faith, and the disposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God. "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves" Eph. 2:8. Paul often said that we are saved "through" faith (that is, as the instrumental cause), but never once did he say that we are saved "on account" of faith (that is, as the meritorious cause). And again, a man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09


Kathr, concerning the other blog on Phil the Elder. Everyone here knows some Scripture but disagree on certain matters of Scripture. But just because they disagree on some matters does not mean that they are less of a Christain and we should shut them down on everything. Many things others say can help another individual who has never heard what is said and maybe what they say will help them. You on the other hand if they disagree on one point of Scripture you condemn them altogether. I disagree with Jerry, Miche, Anne and even StevenG and many others on certain points but that does not mean all they say is wrong. I agree with Miche on her answers to you about Israel. I agree with Anne that we should be obedient to God, it should be our goal.
---MarkV. on 7/31/09


1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Now we know the word "elect" is in scripture. However, why then doesn't John say The Father sent the Son to be savior of the Elect.

Why don't we see this word ELECT in John 3:16.

Yet in both these instances, like all cults do, change the meaning and definitions of scripture.

If you look in your Strongs Concordances, "ELECT" and "WORLD" are two entirely different words!!!!

John 3:14

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: AKA: (whosoever will)

Lets be OBEDIENT to God and lift up Jesus Christ!
---kathr4453 on 7/31/09


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Pastor Levi Webb, thanks for coming on line with your inside as to God's Word, and since you are a pastor and have something to say on this matter, and since you seem to teach your congregation about salvation, where in Scripture does it say that God cannot force anyone to do anything? And second, where does it say that everyone's will is free?
Now you seem to be new, or and old one with a different name, whoever you are, why don't you help me with your inside. Maybe I will learn something from you today or tomorrow or even next week. I am listening to you.
---MarkV. on 7/30/09


TULIP is 2LIP:
T, all men would give snakes to their children intead of a fish
U, Rm 8:29, foreknowledge comes before predestination, Rm 11:2-5: "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew"
L, not limited to the "elect...", else the saying would not be "Whosoever"
I, many did not believe the grace in Christ's words nor his deeds. There would be no need for "whosoever"
P, perseverance of the saints sounds perfect to me, only that it gets expounded falsely, particularly turning into OSAS
---Nana on 7/31/09


MarkV .. You accuse me of never providing scripture (which is not true)

But here's more for you to research: Matt 1.1 to John 21.25

The Gospels are full of Jesus giving us choices.

I would rather believe Jesus than the theories of a theologian who selectively took tiny parts of His words, and of Paul's teaching, out of context, in order to "prove" something that is against the whole of Jesus's message.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/31/09


The TULIP doctrine is almost correct!

Man is Totally Depraved: Rom 3:10-, Ps 51:5, Rom 7:14, Isaiah 64:6.

Election is Unconditional: Rom 9:11, Eph 1:4, Rom 8:29. (Go ahead and deny predestination, in doing so your denying the word of God.)

Attonement is Limited: John 6:44, John 6:37, Heb 9:28 (many is not all).

Grace is Irresistible: Eph 2:5, John 6:45, John 6:44, Dan 4:35.

The P should stand for Preservation of the Saints. We as the saints of God fail to persever constantly, but we are preserved in Christ. We are kept by the power of God through the faithfulness of Christ. God placed us in Christ before the foundation of the world. There is no better place than in Christ. - Eph 1:4, Rom 8:35-39.
---trey on 7/30/09


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There are none (no one) that seeks after God. Romans 3:11 But I have a great hope, because I know One who can change peoples lives and make the dead become alive in Christ and give His people an inheritance that can never fade. 1 Peter 1:3
---Tony on 7/30/09


Yes Mark, I meant not worthy of a person of integrity

You said in effect that I "oblige God to give mke free will or else" Some sot of threat to God. When have I ever obliged or tried to oobliged God to do anything? NEVER And when have I ever threatened Him if He does not obey?demand that God allows me NEVER


But YOU are obligating God to do something ... You are obligating Him to rule like a tyrannical dictator. Because you are denying God the right to give us freewill.

And you have made sevferal untrue statements about what I say & beleive ... and when asked to justify, you will not answer. Can you? NO you cannot because I did not say those things you accuse me of.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/30/09


He wants, that He chooses no one from the foundations of the world, that in time they have the right, in their fallen state, to choose Him if they so desire, when Scripture clearly states they are children of wrath. MarkV*** On another blog


What a twisted twisted piece of twisted arrogant minded doctrine.

Paul said all ofat one time were children of WRATH.



Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.


AND
Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


LAW brings wrath ...not preestination!
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09


This is sad and it happens when we fail to use the whole word of GOD. We all have free will to accept or deny God. God would that none be lost, but He knows that some will not come unto Him for they traded the truth in Christ for a lie. Even Adam had free will, other wise we would be slaves to God and that is not the case. God gave it to all, many trade what many churches preach for what the word of God says. You must study the word to show your self approved. We must know why, where, and what was said for what reason rightfully dividing the word of God. Come now work at unity and do as God would have you to do, as HE would never force you to do any thing against your will
---Pastor_Levi_Webb on 7/30/09


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Alan, it seems you got my answer right this time. No one obligates God to do anything.
" Your words of, "And your addition of "or else" is further an insulting and almost libellous distortion, not unworthy of a person of integrity." What? not worthy of a person of integrity, are those some kind of words direct at me again because you could not find free will in Scripture for everyone? No Alan, it is the same with you. You fail to provide one ioda of Scripture and so you again come back with something to continue your cause. Let's get something right, I stand for God and His right to rule, who are you fighting for? Your integrity?
---MarkV. on 7/30/09


Proof of FREE WILL.

Even Jesus had FREE WILL: when He said...not MY WILL, but THINE be done!!!

US:
Romans 12

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO DO

2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Now, in order to KNOW AND PROVE God's WILL, YOU have to do something.

If you did not have free will, no such BESEECHING would be necessary.

Are you seeking your own will, or are you seeking the WILL of God!!!!
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09


MarkV You twist my words.

Where did I say anything about obligating God to give us FreeWill? And your addition of "or else" is further an insulting and almost libellous distortion, not unworthy of a person of integrity.

Where has anyone said "somehow we deserve free will"? Again you twist what we say.

None of has ever denied that "Man is obligated to Him not only for salvation but for their very existence"

Why do you need to twist our words so frequently?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/30/09


God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and has compassion on whom He has compassion. "For whom He foreknew, He also foreordained to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren, and whom He foreordained, them He also called, and whom He called, them He also justified, and whom He justified, them He also glorified" Rom. 8:29,30. Scripture teaches us that the very faith and repentance through which we are saved are themseles the gifts of God. "By grace have ye been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God" Eph. 2:8. So even the beginning of faith, the dispostion to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God.
---MarkV. on 7/30/09


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Alan, I don't deny God anything. He could have given you and everyone else free will if He so had chosen to do so, but He did not. No where in Scripture does God say He has given everyone free will. You never show passages to that effect you only talk as always. Talk is cheap. Has no Truth from Scripture. For the will is in bondage to sin.
What you and others are doing is obligating Him to give you free will or else.
That somehow you deserve free will, but you only deserve death. The miracle is that He save any, for if He so had wanted, He could have save none and He would still be Almighty God.
---MarkV. on 7/30/09


In truth is, very few people believe in Tulip to the extreme. And very few are total Arminians, either. Both arguments, if applied strictly and literally, begin to break down. I believe, as a practical matter, most Christians find a position somewhere between the two.
---Donna66 on 7/29/09

Donna66, great words there. The Truth is, Predestination and whosoever will are both correct. The Whosoever will's who come to Jesus Christ are then part of His Elect Church today in this age of Grace. Those who are now in Christ are predestined to be conformed to His Image..these are the predestined Begotten sons through Jesus Christ. We are Elect to reign and rule with Christ, being glorified together with Him at His second coming.
---kathr4453 on 7/30/09


MarkV says "Donna, this battle is for the Sovereign right for God to do as He so pleases with His creation"

Yes indeed ... but it is you who is fighting for God's Sovereign Right to be limited.

God has the Sovereign right to do as He pleases ... You say He does not, for you deny Him the right to give FreeWill.

You are the one who wants to control God.
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/30/09


\\ Donna, this battle is for the Sovereign right for God to do as He so pleases with His creation.\\

Does this mean that God has the sovereign right to create through the mechanism of evolution if He so desires?
---Cluny on 7/30/09


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Donna, this battle is for the Sovereign right for God to do as He so pleases with His creation. Either God saves people, or man saves himself. It seems to me that not many are in favor of God. And if it offends those others when someone says, that Salvation is all of the Lord, then those people do not believe in the God of the Bible, and in that case they must have some another god.
This debate has been going on for a long time, and will continue to go on. I believe in a Supreme God who is in control of all things. Who depenses His grace as He so pleases. Who chooses whom He will have mercy on. A God that is not obligated to man in any way whatsoever. Man is obligated to Him not only for salvation but for their very existence.
---MarkV. on 7/29/09


How true, Kathr4453. This is an age old argument. If you have a lot of time on your hands,you can engage in verbal battle over it.

In truth is, very few people believe in Tulip to the extreme. And very few are total Arminians, either. Both arguments, if applied strictly and literally, begin to break down. I believe, as a practical matter, most Christians find a position somewhere between the two.
---Donna66 on 7/29/09


To debate Calv/Arm is like picking up a bat and entering the big leagues, believing you are fit for the challenge. Even the most brilliant theologians have not resolved it! This debate has gone on for hundreds of years, only causing hostility, and not producing LOVE that win's a soul to Christ.

These debates are destructive when we objectify people, and start seeing them as an argument and souls to be conquored rather than people to be loved and won to the Lord. The argument of the TULIP itself is not that which convicts anyone of SIN to begin with.
It's simply not the Gospel Jesus asked us to proclaim.

What's in your motive!!! Those who believe in Whosoever will has one motive in mind.. to bring sinners to Christ...PERIOD!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/09


Jesus taught, "no one knowth the Son, save the Father, neither doth any know the Father save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal Him" Matthew 11:27.MarkV***


Interesting verse here. Now this says it's up to Jesus to reveal the Father. Yet the TULIP doctrine says it's GOD who picked and chose certain people.

Isn't Jesus really saying, no one can come to
the Father except by me? SO one must come through Jesus Christ for God to be revealed to us...and we cry at that time of our salvation...ABBA FATHER!
---kathr4453 on 7/29/09


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Please Post

Matthew 11:27-28

27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Markv, it is important to contiue reading what jesus is saying, He immediately in verse 28 is inviting us to COME TO HIM.....and totally destroys the notion that no one can come unless they are the elect.
---kathr4453 on 7/29/09


a dead person has no free will and cannot choose, unless he or she is made alive in Christ (regeneration) by the Holy Spirit
---Tony on 7/28/09


1. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them" because they are spiritually judged."

2. "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned"MarkV***


MarkV, This is talking about CHURCH Truth, Body truth, Spiritual Truths, not initial salvation.

Point 2, yes sin entered and death passed on to all. Death does not mean total depravity as we all become Jeffrey Bomers.

Romans 1 & 2 tell us after the fall, man STILL KNEW the Glory of God. What they knew, we have no idea! But they knew and had something even we don't have today!
---kathr4453 on 7/28/09


Joseph: Nice summary and Scripture references.

Calvinism strongly emphasizes the sovereignty of God, seemingly at the expense of human free will. However, it is possible to take a moderate position on each of the five points (which I actually do) and still affirm human free will. Negative reactions to TULIP often occur in response to those who hold extreme versions of each position. For example, I affirm 'limited atonement' in the sense that I believe Christ's work on the cross, while sufficient for all, is applied only to the elect. I would deny, however, the extreme position that Christ's atonement is sufficient for the elect only (or that Christ died for certain people and not others).
---Bobby3 on 7/28/09


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The non-existance of TD is in Romans.

Adam to Moses men were held accountable by a moral conscience of knowing right or wrong.

Moses to Jesus, the Law came in to show, regardless of moral conscience we are all sinners.

Jesus NOW comes to saves sinners, the Law pointing to sin telling us exactly what is sin to God.

TD is nonsence...the LAW exposes anyone's depravity, including a moral conscience that we still KEPT after the fall.

If we are so depraved we can't even read the 10 commandments and KNOW what stealing is, etc. then we are nothing more than an animal.

Original sin did not reduce MAN created after the image of God to an animal. Even an aimal has a conscience of right or wrong when trained.
---kathr4453 on 7/28/09


Jesus taught, "no one knowth the Son, save the Father, neither doth any know the Father save the Son, and He to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal Him" Matthew 11:27. Men in his unregenerate state and unenlightened nature does not know God in any sense worthy the name, and that the Son is Sovereign in choosing who shall come into this saving knowledge of God.
In another time Jesus taught that a good tree could not bring forth evil fruit, nor an evil tree good fruit. The fruits of these two trees are acts, words, thoughts, which if good proceed from a good nature, and if evil proceed from an evil nature. It is impossible, then, for one and the same root to bring forth fruit of different kinds.
---MarkV. on 7/28/09


No matter what you do in life, if it is not of faith in Christ it is sin. All descendants of Adam fall under that category. All sin and come short of the glory of God.
No matter the deeds they do, if it is not of faith it is sin.
1. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, and he cannot know them" because they are spiritually judged."

2. "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned"

3. Their good deeds don't count before God, because they do not give glory to God.
---MarkV. on 7/28/09


Total Depravity?

My goodness!! Who do you know who is totally depraved? Were you before you were saved?

Does a non-Christian (even an agnostic or athiest) act with TOTAL DEPRAVITY when he sacrifices his life for a child?

If we are TOTALLY DEPRAVED, we can't do anything good at all ... how can that be when we are fashioned in the image of God?
---alan8566_of_uk on 7/27/09


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I found this question very interesting. It took me a little while online to find the right site as I had to sort through all those flowers first. T.U.L.I.P. is certainly nonsense. If we have no choice in salvation Jesus would not have needed to die on the cross. God could have just chosen His elect.
---SusieB on 7/27/09


Total Depravity. Man by nature is an>Evil-(Mark 7:21-23)>sick-(Jer. 17:9)>ignorant-(1 Cor. 2:14)>slave-(Rom.6:20)>that does not seek God-(Rom.3:10-12)>because he is at enmity with Him-Eph.2:15.
Unconditional Election. "Father chooses the elect without any consideration of merit within the individual." Eph.1:4-8,> Rom.9:11.
Limited Atonement. "Though Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all." Matt. 26:28>John 10:11,15>Acts 20:28
Irresistible Grace. "God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted" ?? Romans 9:16>Philippians 2:12-13>John 1:12-13
Perseverance of the Saints. "You cannot lose your salvation" John 10:27-28>Romans 8:1. Right or wrong? You decide.
---joseph on 7/26/09


If you cared to be more informational and explain what T.U.L.I.P. stands for, you would be able to get clear, unbiased, and truthful information, but since you want to only use abbreviations (an "anagram"), you will never be able to get anything other than biased information about it.

Anagrams are used for just about anything that is ungodly, sinister, and underhanded (the first tell-tale sign of anything that is ungodly and illegitimate).

One of satan's strategies is to prevent truthful communication exchange.

2 Thessalonians 2:10

"because they refused to love the truth AND SO BE SAVED".
---more_excellent_way on 7/25/09


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