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Saved From Law Or Sin

Did Jesus come to save us from the LAW or from our SIN?

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 ---jerry6593 on 7/26/09
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Lee on a closed thread you quoted Holman's Bible Dictionary on the meanings of 'day.' You insist the 6 'days' of creation are not 24hrs. Holman's gives 3 meanings for 'day.'

1) Daylight: from sunrise to sunset Gen. 1:14, 3:8

2) As a general expression for "time" without specific limits Genesis 2:4, Ps. 102:3

And the pertinent one:

3) A 24hr period- Gen. 1:5

Your bias blinds you to the obvious, causing you to offer a quote which contradicts your view. A view contradicted also by Scripture.

You dishonour the word of God, preferring the opinions and praise of men.

This in not of faith, and that which is not of faith is sin-Romans 14:23.
---Warwick on 8/11/09


MarkV: As usual, your answers are devoid of information. I appreciate scripture as much as the next guy, but I have yet to see how they explain your belief system. Perhaps you don't know why you believe what you believe - whatever it is. Here's one for you:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and BE READY ALWAYS TO GIVE AN ANSWER to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
---jerry6593 on 8/11/09


Warwick, thank you for your answer, I find that you discuss things very well and that you are honest. When I believe you are correct in your answers I will say so, if I think you are wrong I will tell you why and hope to give Scripture. Otherwise lets continue to learn and continue to study. Peace
---MarkV. on 8/10/09


Kathr, you reject the words of God,
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." Did you get that? It does not depend on man's will, are how he runs, for salvation is not merited by human effort.
"For the Scriptures say to the Pharaoh, 'for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills, He hardens" God raised Pharaoh for one purpose only. Pharaoh might have taken credit for everything but it was God who raised him for His own purpose. So that His name could be declared in all the earth. And you reject His word in the earth.
---MarkV. on 8/10/09


Kathr 2. You reject God's works just as Paul knew those he was speaking to would oppose the works of God, so he says, "You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God?" this is you Kathr replying against God because you don't think it is right, and he says, "Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Paul stated that the Potter has every right to make out of the same clay, one for honor and one for dishonor. Pauls message was for you, believe it, or reject who God is.
---MarkV. on 8/10/09




Mark, carrying over from a now closed blog, let me say I am not SDA. I have preached in many SDA churches and have appreciated their faith. There are SDA beliefs with which I do not agree.

Having been billited in many SDA homes I have been impressed with the way they give the Sabbath over to God. There is a palpable peace there. This is unlike many other Christians who go the church then rush off to worldly pursuits. No Godly rest there.

I am not convinced Christians are commanded to observe the Sabbath today. If God convinces me otherwise I will observe it.

My Sabbath comments on this blog have been purely to show God created in 6-24hr-days, rested the 7th, so that the Israelites would follow suit.
---Warwick on 8/10/09


Ignatius - *If one believe a Christian can not sin, or that his future sins are already forgiven, than he or she has fallen from the Holy Faith of the Holy Apostles, ...

Basically agree except that Reformed theology does teach that while one has trespassed God's holy will, he or she still remains in the family of God and is saved.

Scripture maintains that eternal life is a present possession.

1Jo 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


No matter what you think about God, He is the One who gives mercy to whom He pleases when He pleases, and is not restrain by man who is just clay, and if you do not agree with that its ok. MarkV**

MarkV, you have twisted these verses in Romans 9. God's MERCY has already been spent at Calvary. The MERCY seat has been forever sprinkled with the Blood of Jesus Christ. ANYONE can now FIND mercy and forgivness in Jesus Christ.

Romans 9 is talking about Israel, and YES, you better believe Israel WILL be given MERCY and all Israel will be saved whether arrogant Gentiles believe it or not....THEY are the Clay. Isaiah 43.

We're not to be IGNORANT of this MYSTERY!!!



---kathr4453 on 8/10/09


Jerry, what I did on the last post was give a detail who we were after Adam, why we could not come to Christ while lost, and what needed to be done so that we could come to Christ. It is explained very simple if you read the passages. Not my words but Scripture. My 2 post was not posted so I will try again to posted it. If you put both together you will see what I am talking about. Maybe you don't want to believe it, which is your choice. Now, you can comment all you want if you don't like Scripture but its there in plain sight. I didn't write it in Scripture all I did was post it.
---MarkV. on 8/10/09


Jerry #2:
Why does God have to initiate the salvation needed by the lost?
Answer, "As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one, there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" Rom. 3:10-12. if the lost understood they would seek God.
Can a person make himself clean?
Answer: "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Job 14:4
Why the lost don't seek God
Answer: For the word of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us who are saved it is the power of God"
They love darkness
"And this is the judgment, that light is come unto the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil"
---MarkV. on 8/10/09




People will always take scripture out of context to distroy the Gospel. We either believe that Christ came to put sin away or we dont. Freedom from sin is the heart of the Gospel. We are now dead to sin, we are set free from sin. We are saints now and have life.
Sin shall never enter. Sin = death........
To say christians are sinners, makes the work of the cross a joke. Dont be fooled.
---duane on 8/10/09


Kathr, what you are suggesting is that unregenerate people are seeing and entering the Kingdom of God before been born again. "For the moment a person believes Christ he is in the Kingdom." MarkV***


MarkV, the TULIP teaches one is Born Again/given spiritual eyes only to see before entering. Only the NEW creature IN CHRIST can enter....crucified with Him and raised a New Creation....this alone is the Spiritual man..the New Creature who enters. It takes more than EYES to see to enter in. It takes Identification with His Death and resurrection Life. You're not a separate being entering. Only those IN CHRIST.

So, MarkV, are you again by-passing Jesus Christ,and the CROSS?
---kathr4453 on 8/10/09


"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15).

Although Christians have the Holy Trinity in them, they still struggle with the flesh (evident in the NT), and sin at times. However, as Saint John wrote in 1 John, if we sin, and confess our sin [s], Christ is faithful and just to forgive us.

A Christian can sin, and reap destruction, Galatians 6:7-8. If one believe a Christian can not sin, or that his future sins are already forgiven, than he or she has fallen from the Holy Faith of the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, and the God-Bearing Fathers/Mothers of the Early Church (1st-11th centuries).

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 8/9/09


MarkV: It seems that when I get close to understanding your belief system, you launch into a litany of unrelated obfuscation. Perhaps it's just me, but could you please just summarize your position in as few words as possible?
---jerry6593 on 8/10/09


Duane - //Lee, correction, We WERE sinners saved by grace, NOT we are sinners saved by grace. A Christian is NOT a sinner.

Then why does scripture in 1 John 1:8 tells us that 'If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us'?

And why does scripture tell us that 'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness'?

While it is true that we are in Christ positionally, we still have to contend with the flesh. Paul tells us in Romans 7:23 that he can 'see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members'?
---Lee1538 on 8/9/09


Lee,
correction, We WERE sinners saved by grace, NOT we are sinners saved by grace.
A christian is NOT a sinner.
---duane on 8/9/09


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--Jerry6593:

The question mark at the end of 'To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?' is to express & personally stay in remembrance of the 'Unknown Factor' of intentions verse perception : Call it 'Poetic Liberty'. When it come to perceiving the Spirit of Truth, hearing requires more than just literally having ears & an understanding of a written language. For :~

~: The Ocean tells no lies,
Yet standing on its shores a
Crooked man still hears them.

When there is more knowledge of the way the world has defined a thing and not enough Wisdom to Spiritually see with our eyes and Patiently hear with our ears, we'll find our hearts waxing gross and our ears dull of hearing, as our eyes remain closed to the Truth before us.
---Shawn.M.T on 8/9/09


Underlying assumption of some is that one must be totally free of sin to be saved eternally.

They fails to realize Christians are sinners saved by sovereign grace and their righteousness is of Christ who fulfilled the law for them.

But such is the plight of those who believe their salvation is tied to their obedience to law. Eph. 2:8-10

They also reject the function of the Holy Spirit in sanctification and final phase of glorification.

Php. 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
---Lee1538 on 8/9/09


To Jerry,
All men are sinners Romans 5:12, "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned."
He, God, came along and "And you He made alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins, wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that now workth in the sons of disobedience" clue (Satan).
Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
---MarkV. on 8/9/09


We are all Gods creation. HE died for all.
All have a choice to turn(repent towards God). If all men WOULD turn to God, HE WOULD give all men a change of mind(repentance). After God changes your thinking, you will experience a new life.
.. We must be born again..
.. We are overcomers through HIM..

---duane on 8/9/09


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Jerry, you twisted what I said, you cannot help yourself. I truely understand why you ask me the questions, not to know but to try to find fault in what I said. I gave a clear enough picture to you. If you don't agree that is ok with me. I have Scriptures for all that I said.

No matter what you think about God, He is the One who gives mercy to whom He pleases when He pleases, and is not restrain by man who is just clay, and if you do not agree with that its ok. You don't have to believe God's Word. You have freedom of choice.
When God comes to judge He will judge by our choices. There will be no excuse whatsoever. So as you can see, they go to hell because they refuse the Words of God when they hear them. Yet God knew they would.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09


ShawnMt.: Why do you put a question mark after your trademark sentence (uh, correction - prepositional phrase):

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?
---jerry6593 on 8/9/09


Jerry, I posted the Scriptures for everything I wrote to you, they were not posted. I am sorry you think of God not loving when He chose you when you were heading to hell. He hand picked you from the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him in love. Having predestined you to adoption as a son by Jesus Christ to Himself, and it was according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made you accepted in the Beloved."
If that love is not good enough for you then you don't deserve what you have. You should be thanking God for saving you. I know I do everyday of my life. I don't question why He did, I accept what He does because He is always right.
---MarkV. on 8/9/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Jesus came so that the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.

We're sold under sin by being carnally minded which is death. Sin works death through taking occasion by the Commandment to wrought in us all manner of eager desires, deceiving & slaying us because of what the Righteousness of the Law could not do through the weakness of the flesh.

The Commandment of the Law is Holy, Just & Good : and its Spirit has prophetically reined in Christ Jesus, so that now through the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus we're made free from the law of sin & death. Transformed into being spiritually minded which is Life & Peace.

Refer. Rom.7:7-14,8:2-7,12:1-3
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/8/09


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MarkV: So, you have a religion where both the saved and the lost are in bondage - slaves as it were - but to different masters. The lost are then unable to choose the salvation of Christ by the action of their will in response to the promptings of the Holy Spirit in their conscience because their master, Satan, won't allow it. Similarly, the saved are not allowed to choose to sin because their Master, Jesus also forbids freedom of response to one's own will. Somehow, all that opression of freedom doesn't seem to square with a God of love. All God would have is a bunch of non-thinking robots. And why does He need a future judgement day when He has already picked the winners and losers before their creation?
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


Kathr, who called you names? Since you are on all blogs looking for me, here's my answer again,
Kathr, what you are suggesting is that unregenerate people are seeing and entering the Kingdom of God before been born again. "For the moment a person believes Christ he is in the Kingdom." How can a man enter the Kingdom without been born again? Jesus pointed to Nicodemus his need to be born again. He was still in the flesh. The flesh yields only flesh. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing. You have people in flesh in the Kingdom of God.
If a person who is still in the flesh, who is not yet reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit, can incline or dispose himself to Christ, "what good is rebirth?" This is your fatal flaw.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09


Jerry hope I can answer your questions.
There's two kinds of people, the lost and the save. Those born of the flesh and those born of the Spirit. Gen. 3:15 tells of the enmity between the two.
Did God plan this in eternity past? He designed the whole plan in eternity past.
Both groups have freedom of choice. No one has free will. The save are now in bondage to Christ. Their will is to do their Fathers desire's and given the endwelling of the Spirit to help them overcome.
The lost are in bondage to sin, and do the desires of their father the devil, and are children of wrath.
A lost person cannot repent unless He is born of the Spirit and is given a new heart. He has to be brought to life in Christ in order to repent.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09


We are not in bondage to sin anymore as we once were. God released us when He gave us life.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09
Again, at teh expense of being called names, I will address this comment again.

When we place our faith in Jesus Christ we are set free from the PENALTY of sin. This is our justification. God can pronounce you NOT GUILTY because Jesus took YOUR penalty...death. The wages of sin is death!

Once a person is justified, then and only then will God begin to work IN you to set you FREE from the bondage/power of sin. This is called sanctification.

If these two are confused then what we have is false doctrine.

This is where MarkV's Calvinism totally misses the Mark. Or maybe MarkV misses it!
---kathr4453 on 8/8/09


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MarkV: If I understand your philosophy correctly, you believe that there are two categories - the saved and the lost: and that the members of each category were predetermined from the beginning of time. Both groups have limited freedom of choice, but only the saved have free will since their wills are not in bondage to sin, as are those of the lost. Is that correct so far?

Doesn't that mean that it is impossible for a lost person to "choose" to repent and obey Christ and receive His power to overcome sin and be saved, since his will constrains him from such acts? Then Jesus' mission to seek and to save the lost was meaningless!
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


Jerry, your apologies are accepted. Hey, let me say that I don't care what denomination you are from, I am not here to split hairs about your denomination. I more or else know who you are already. I am willing to discuss doctrines with you, if you are willing. There is many here who have a passion for Christ as I said before, example, Mark E. Ken, Shawn T, Warwick, Darline, Donna, Bill, Ruben, Legends, Bob, more excellent way, duane, tony and many more I cannot think of now, to whom a person can have a discussion without throwing stones.
But when a person bashes Christ works on the Cross, or try's to strip Him of His divine nature, all bets are off. I can be your friend if you let me.
---MarkV. on 8/8/09


MarkV: Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess my reading accuracy decreases with speed, and I try to cover much ground in little time. Of course, your having injected your own words in the middle of your quote of John 8:43-44 didn't help any.

Alan: Thanks for helping clear it up.
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


Alan, thanks for clearing up when I answered Jerry. Look, I have answered Jerry many times. I already know what he stands for. It is not difficult to tell most people on line anymore and what they believe. After so many answers they give, one can make a pretty clear picture. There is people on line who hunt you down on every blog to discredit you because you did not agree with them at some point in time. Some to strip Jesus from His divine nature, others to defend their denomination at the expense of the Word of God.
And then others who are very anxious to discuss Scripture back an forth because they have a passion for Christ. I mean a real passion, even if they don't know everything.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


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Alan 2: Let me say you are right, I do know more then many others, that is for sure, and many others know more then me. No one knows the same for we all are different and have different teachers and God reveals Himself and His word in a different manner to one then to another depending how much knowledge are learning they already have. Also depending on their submission to Christ in their daily walk with Him. If you want to learn God will teach you. If you are lazy you will learn nothing. The main goal for everyone is to learn who God is and not many know who He is. They have created a god that fits their believes even when their believes are wrong.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


Jerry ... You will know I don't sgree with Mark on the subject of freewill.

But can't you see that when he quotes "You are of your father the devil and the desires of your father you want to do" Mark is not addressing you?

He is quoting what is said to those who cannot love Christ.

And earlier, when he uses the words "me" & "my" he is referring to Jesus or God, not himself.

Mark does tend to think he knows more and better than others, but he does not "equate his words to those of Christ"
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/7/09


Jerry,
You should know that without Christ, all men are sinners. Without Christ Im a dead man full of sin. With Christ, I have a new life being set free from sin. I am now dead to sin and alive to God. I believe this because I believe in the work of the Cross. There is no other hope but Christ. Just believe on HIM.
---duane on 8/7/09


We are not in bondage to sin anymore as we once were. God released us when He gave us life.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09
MarkV says you are given LIFE/Born Again prior to salvation, according to your doctrine. You said Born Again/Life is not Salvation. Or that God has to FIRST bring you to LIFE. Are you now saying God has to set you free from sin FIRST before you are saved? Justification is not setting you free from sin. It is a legal matter only to declare you righteous based on your faith in what Jesus did for you. Only those Justified can God now work in your life in sanctification.

We are set free from sin when we identify with Christ (OBEDIENCE OF FAITH) in death and resurrection life. Romans 6.
---kathr4453 on 8/7/09


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Jerry, you are too much. Me calling you the son of the devil? Whats up with that? I was making an example of who the lost are, by giving you Scripture. You always say, show me, so I showed you. You try to bring strive between us for no good reason Jerry. All of that is coming from your heart not mine. I am ok with answering questions back and forth. I love to discuss Scripture. I have only gotten mad at one person on line, and because he trashed Christ. No one I answer to do I call children of the devil even if I thought they were. I don't tell them to park their cars in hell either. Or call them not saved. I believe many are not saved but that is only an opinion. I am not here for that Jerry. Open diolques and we can all answer.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


MarkV: IMHO, Your equating of your words to those of Jesus, and of calling me the the son of the devil are a bit over the top.

By continuously repeating the falsehood that free will and freedom of choice are different, you do not gain the day. Is there no substantive argument that you could put forward?
---jerry6593 on 8/7/09


Jerry, concerning what Duane stated that you put down, I had not seen those quotes. I suppose he sees himself in a spiritual way. Nothing wrong with that unless he does say he does not sin. That is where another guy here on line has gone. Sinless in the flesh. If people could keep the whole law, we would not have needed Christ. But the law was to show our sin, not to save anyone. Once we know who we are, we know we need Christ and His perfect works on the cross. For He could keep the whole law in our stead.
Sin in Scripture is mentioned as Habitual sin. We are not in bondage to sin anymore as we once were. God released us when He gave us life.
---MarkV. on 8/7/09


Jerry, I understand what freedom of choice is. But the freedom of choice is not the freedom of the will. Everyone has a choice, but the choices the make are in bondage to what their will desires. And all who are lost do not desire God, they have freedom of choice, but their will is in bondage to sin. Jesus said to those who were lost, "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word" They are not able to listen to Christ. Why? Because If God were your Father, you would love Me" But they cannot love Christ because God is not their father. Guess who is? "You are of your father the devil and the desires of your father you want to do"
---MarkV. on 8/6/09


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If we are to believe anything, we must believe in the Gospel. The heart of the Gospel is freedom from sin through Christ.duane***

Duane, you are such a breath of fresh air here every time I read your post.

Without the LAW there would be no Gospel. The LAW came in to show us our sin, and Jesus came to forgive sin. To think that one can't KNOW this truth apart from some supernatural revelation??? is beyond me.

And to MarkV on your last comment. ONLY the Church, the mystical body of Christ that is joined with HIM will be glorified TOGETHER with Christ...so much more than your realize or understand. So Sorry Calvin never explained this to you, but guess what...MY FATHER explained this to me!
---kathr4453 on 8/6/09


If we are to believe anything, we must believe in the Gospel. The heart of the Gospel is freedom from sin through Christ.
I think most here are unbelievers. Its sooo sad.
Jesus came to put sin away, so we could have eternal life through faith in HIM.HE PAID THE PRICE. Now put your trust in HIM.
---duane on 8/6/09


Jerry, your argument about 'free will' is only a humanist argument.
Have you ever thought about your life with Christ in the New Jerusalem? The glory of the Lord will fill this place. We will finally experience the full unfiltered glory of God as it fills the city. All the nations of the earth and all the inhabitants of heaven will give glory to the Father and to the Lamb. There will never be night for darkness has always represented sin. There will literally be no night and second there will also be no possibility of sin. Sin cannot enter into the presence of God. Here is my question, when you are there, will you demand free will? You suggest God cannot be love if He doesn't give free will. Yet you will only be able to glory in the Lord.
---MarkV. on 8/6/09


MarkV: Since you missed it, here it is:

Jerry,
Yes, I have arrived. As far as sin? Yes, I have been set free from sin through Christ.
Im not in bondage anymore. Do I sin? Of course not. He who sins is of the devil.
Salvation is Christ in you. How can a saved person have sin?
---duane on 8/2/09

If you understood the true nature of freedom of choice, you would understand that although I may indeed have the power of Christ within me to overcome sin, I am still free, at any time, to CHOOSE to sin (and to be lost if I continue therein) if I want. Jesus will indeed SAVE US FROM OUR SINS if we so choose, but NOT against our will!
---jerry6593 on 8/6/09


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Jerry, can you provide where he said he had arrived? If he said that I didn't read it. You don't like much what I say either. That's who you are. There is only One who is completely Sinless and that is Jesus Christ. You might not see this but if I am regenerated and if I'm a new creation, and God has fitted me for eternity, and He has planted the life of God in my soul, that life has to be perfect. Right? Because God cannot give me imperfect life: He cannot give me imperfect regeneration, He cannot give me imperfect righteousness, so that if I am righteous at all, I am righteous period, and that is true. That is why Paul says, "It is not I that sin, It is sin that is in me. It is not that new creation, it is the sin that is in me,"
---MarkV. on 8/5/09


MarkV: Nice try, but here are Duane's exact words:

"Jerry,
Yes, I have arrived. ... Do I sin? Of course not."

Up until now, I thought that there was only One who was sinless, Jesus Christ the Righteous. Are you trying to convince me that there is another?

I would point out to you and Duane that the bearing of false witness is also a sin.
---jerry6593 on 8/5/09


Mark,
Thank u for your response. You r correct in understanding. We are new creations set free from sin.
---duane on 8/4/09


Personally, I believe we are saved from sin and the sting of death. What in the Law is there to be saved from? Not stealing, serving other gods, not committing adultery?

Torah is God's instruction for man and said to be everlasting. When Paul wrote that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable instruction in righteousness, there was no NT at that time. He was speaking about the accepted scripture of that day, the Torah and Prophets.

When we read the words of Jesus in Matt. 5:17-19 there is no mystery. When he said ALL the LAW and PROPHETS hangs on the two commands there is no mystery. Torah isn't a burden, it is a delight. Sin, death, that's the burden and bondage we need Messiah for to overcome.
---Ken_Rank on 8/4/09


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Jerry, Duane is very serious. He does not play around with God's Word. What he interprets might be interpreted different, but he is not here to deceive anyone.
I have had this discussions with him about sin, but what I understand he is saying is that our new creation, Christ, cannot sin. The flesh can sin but not the Spirit who lives in him. So when he answers he answers from the spiritual man he is, and he is without sin. He does not indentify himself in the flesh since he is born again. I believe there is nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong when we say we do not sin, since the flesh is corruptable and sinful and we have not received our new bodies yet.
---MarkV. on 8/4/09


"Of course Jerry, you do know that duane is just giving you a play on words, right?
---Nana on 8/2/09"


Nana: No. I believe a man means what he says. Why shouldn't I. If he is intending to deceive, then he has yet another problem. If it is some kind of joke about sin, salvation and the sacrifice of Christ, I don't find that sort of thing funny.
---jerry6593 on 8/4/09


John says that we should sin not. I John 2,1 but if we do we have an advocate with the Father.

He also says that those who say they are without sin are liars. I John 1.

It is JESUS CHRIST in me who does not sin. I have neither the power or ability to not sin. I must turn my life over to JESUS and die to self daily,.
---Samuel on 8/3/09


Of course Jerry, you do know that duane is just giving you a play on words, right?
---Nana on 8/2/09


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duane: Just curious, but what was the last sin you remember committing?
---jerry6593 on 8/3/09


Jerry,
Yes, I have arrived. As far as sin? Yes, I have been set free from sin through Christ.
Im not in bondage anymore. Do I sin? Of course not. He who sins is of the devil.
Salvation is Christ in you. How can a saved person have sin?
---duane on 8/2/09


duane: You still didn't answer my question. What is the name of this sinless church? So you never sin, eh. Never? Do you expect us to believe that you NEVER break even one of the least of the Ten Commandments? While I agree that it is possible, through the power of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, to cease from sin, I just never met anyone who had actually "arrived."
---jerry6593 on 8/1/09


Jerry,
Remember, no sin shall not enter. We are saved or lost. Saint or sinner. Which one are you? Jesus came to set you free from sin. Did HE not?
******

Saved from DEATH

ALL HAVE SINNED and fallen

you are DECEIVED by the father of lies to believe you are FREE from sin

True Christians are OVERCOMERS ...it is a lifetime process

NOT ANYTHING like religious christianity that HAS NO TRUTH from Gods Word boldly lying by telling people to just believe on Jesus and you are "saved"
---Rhonda on 7/31/09


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The law established sin and made us all guilty of sin. Without the law there is no sin. Read the book of Romans chpts 2 thru 8 that explains this is in great detail. Remember Jesus as written in the gospel of John 1 was "the word of God" that became flesh. This is key to understand how and why Jesus Christ who was the living Word of God fullfilled the law and also delivered us from the law of sin. It was God's love and mercy that a New Testament was given to us "The Law of Faith and Grace" only obtained by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus paid the sin debt for all mankind and each person must redeem it by faith in Christ. God bless you richly in His word.
---Cindy on 7/31/09


Jerry,
Remember, no sin shall not enter. We are saved or lost. Saint or sinner. Which one are you? Jesus came to set you free from sin. Did HE not?
---duane on 7/31/09


Donna - I agree with you to a point. The early church apostles NEVER taught to disobey the commandments of God (including the 10 Commandments). They followed them with the H.S. help, and thus gave us an example to follow. We are saved from the consequenses of the law (death), NOT the law itself (obedience). According to the Bible, we are still to obey the law (1 John 2:3-6). If you do NOT obey the law, you do NOT belong to God.
---Leslie on 7/31/09


duane: "We are not sinners anymore."

Wow! What church do you attend? All the churches I've attended still have sinners in them.
---jerry6593 on 7/31/09


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I believe Christ came to save us from the wrath of God. The wrath of God was put on Christ, He took all our sins, that we might not have to suffer the eternal wrath of God. Romans 1:18
---Tony on 7/30/09


Leslie -- Jesus didn't say much after the cross. All we know is what he said to the diciples, when He had breakfast with them. He told Peter, "feed my sheep"...no commentary on law or sin.

The Gospel tells how Christ brought salvation from sin.

Now, if you believe in the rest of the New Testament, Paul speaks clearly about the law.

Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
---Donna on 7/30/09


Jesus came to save from sin. Jesus NEVER said after the cross, you do not have to obey the law anymore - in fact He taught that we MUST obey the laws of God. The only part of the law that Jesus saves us from is the penalty of the law. However, this is only if we accept Christ as our Lord. If we do not, we will still be under the penalty of the law on Judgement Day, and have to pay ourselves in Hell.
---Leslie on 7/30/09


Jesus came to set us free from sin, HE took sin away.
This is the heart of the Gospel.
We are not sinners anymore.
---duane on 7/30/09


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The answer would be BOTH. God gave the law so that we would know what sin is and be able to repent. If there is no law....there can be no sin.

Paul says:
Gal 3:24-25 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

When sin is forgiven the Holy Spirit enters. He writes the law on a person's heart, so they recognize sin.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2Cr 3:6.... not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
---Donna66 on 7/28/09


The Bible says JESUS came to save us from sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

One of the definitions of sin is 1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So the Bible answers the question.
---Samuel on 7/28/09


"Did Jesus come to save us from the LAW or from our SIN"

Jesus came to save man from the penalty of sin enforceable by law.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made [the believer] free from the law of sin and death. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
Rom 8:2>Rom 6:18
---josef on 7/28/09


Mr./Ms. Way: "Since Jesus abolished the sin laws, "sin" no longer has any SPIRITUAL meaning to those who are hidden inside the body of Christ."

Mat 5:17,18 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
---jerry6593 on 7/28/09


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If you are a sinner! I believe we are!
And you truthfully believe the word that Christ gave you.

How are you to look at your little sin? If you believe!
Do you not know! You are guiltier then all the great sinner of the earth?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So now, how can you judge anyone, knowing you are guiltier then them? For, them not knowing Christ are only guilty of the one sin?

Why, you and not him?
Because, if you are judging, are you not using the law to judge!

How can there be sin, in the law of faith?
Forgive and you shall be forgiven!
---TheSeg on 7/27/09


From our sin. Sin is caused by us breaking the law. Jesus came to fulfill the law.
---amand6348 on 7/27/09


Jesus came to save us from sin. He fulfilled the law.
---Betty on 7/27/09


So have faith.

If someone kills your child, do you condemn them as a sinner? It's clearly a sin. If they are a brother or sister in Christ, then you have the right to judge them. If they are not, then I'd agree you are not to judge them.

But if we are the saints are we not to judge our brothers here in trivial matters if we are to judge in Heaven?
---stephen on 7/27/09


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If a person TRULY is spiritually INside the body of Jesus, then they are a SPIRITUAL creation (no longer a 6th day creation, but a NEW creation) that is hidden and protected from the "law" (genuine/eternal life).

Acts 17:28
"'In him we live and move and have our being'".

Since Jesus abolished the sin laws, "sin" no longer has any SPIRITUAL meaning to those who are hidden inside the body of Christ.

Ephesians 2:15
"by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances".

1 Corinthians 15:56
"the power of sin is the law".

James 2:12
"So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty"/freedom.
---more_excellent_way on 7/27/09


How do you know youve sinned? The law!
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

If you have to look at the law, to know, if you do good or evil, well then you do evil. Why? In your mind, you are holding up everyone to a law, that they can not do!
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

I wonder if anyone can really understand this!
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Where is boasting then? It is excluded!
By the law of faith!
Be careful!
---TheSeg on 7/27/09


Just because you're saved doesn't mean to continue in your life of sin. (See casting stones adulterous and "Leave your life of Sin." statement by Jesus)

You still have a choice to sin or not, but the true test of belief and faith is to NOT sin any more as Jesus requested. If you choose to keep sinning God will catch up to you and "Take you to the woodshed." as my pastor likes to say.
---stephen on 7/27/09


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