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Present With The Lord

Where does "absent from the body...present with the Lord" come from? I read 2 Corinthians 5:1-15 in context and I don't believe it means the same as how most Christians use that quote today. Anyone else feel this way?

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There is in the Bible, a distinction made between the soul and the spirit of man.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Since the saints of His church has always held, that the believer spirit of man goes back to God upon death, we can surmise that our belief is correct.

Nothing, not even death separates the believer from His Lord.

Ro 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, ...will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
---Lee on 8/16/09


MarkV: Two things:

(1) Do you believe that the entire Bible is inspired? That is, do the words of Christ in the New Testament ALWAYS agree with His inspired words in the Old Testament? (Yes or No only, please.) Thus, if my understanding of a single passage of scripture does not agree with the remaining body of scripture, I've got the wrong interpretation.

(2) What exactly is the Spirit of which you speak? Is it the same thing that most people would call the soul? Is He the third member of the Godhead (The Comforter which Jesus sends). Or, is it some third alternative? Please be specific.
---jerry6593 on 8/16/09


Barnes notes: To be present with the Lord. The Lord Jesus. See Barnes "Ac 1:24". Comp. #Php 1:23. The idea of Paul is, that the Lord Jesus would constitute the main glory of heaven, and that to be with him was equivalent to being in a place of perfect bliss. He had no idea of any heaven where the Lord Jesus was not, and to be with him was to be in heaven. That world where the Redeemer is, is heaven. This also proves that the spirits of the saints, when they depart, are with the Redeemer, i.w. are at once taken to heaven.
---Lee1538 on 8/15/09


Jerry, I do need to brush up on everything really, I admit that, but you need to believe in the word of God. You are questiong the very words of Jesus Christ concerning hell and death. You say to Lee an others how great you honor the commandments but how can you when you do not believe the very words of Christ? When you speak of the law, you speak as if without the Holy Spirit, when you speak of hell, you speak as though a believer does not have the Spirit of God. Then you suggest when a believer dies, the Spirit that God gave the new believer also dies. A Spirit dying. What is wrong with your picture Jerry? All of the picture is bad.
---MarkV. on 8/15/09


MarkV: You need to brush up on your reading skills. Gen 2:7 does NOT say that Adam was created from dust and his eternal, self-existent, soul-spirit, ghost thing was injected into him. It says that when the two ingredients of dust and God's personal breath of life were combined, he BECAME A LIVING SOUL. He was not a soul before the combination, and thus cannot be a soul after they are separated at death. Your belief in spiritualism is clouding your thinking.
---jerry6593 on 8/15/09




MarkE: So your thinking is that Adam and all the rest born before Jesus came in the flesh are dead and in the grave, but those who accept Jesus are still alive in paradise, and none are in heaven or hell? Does that seem like a fair, impartial God to you? You need to descend from 10,000 ft and come down to earth.
---jerry6593 on 8/15/09


So, let me see if I got this, Mark E.

We are from birth, A soul. Flesh and God's breath of life.

We stay that way UNLESS we receive Christ as our savior and the Holy spirit comes to live in us creating us a new creature.
That means those not saved have God's breath BUT not the eternal Spirit from Christ that saves us from eternal death.
That means that we are dead in our tresspasses unless we accept Jesus as lord and savior and he comes and makes his abode in us.
So, why would you tell Jerry he is lying when really you are both right?
Before Christ= breath of God and flesh
After Christ saves = breath of God, flesh, and Holy Spirit.
---miche3754 on 8/14/09


Jerry:

No, Gen 2:7 is not a lie. It is just not complete.

Please review from 10,000 feet what happens (too many Scriptures to quote).

God creates Adam, body, and soul, but God says to him, do not eat this tree or you will die. What will die? Body? Soul? Both? Both is my answer.

But then Jesus comes and gives us the gift of life eternal. Life to what? Body? Soul? Neither is my answer.

Life to our Spirit. THIS is the new birth. When you are born again you are born (new creature) of the Spirit. You receive a new Spirit that you did not have before.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/14/09


Jerry, what's your point in giving Gen. 2:7? Adam did become a living soul. He received the breath of life, just as everyone does. What is your point? No argument there.
What seems to be your problem and this carries over from your arguments about the law, is that you don't believe in spiritual rebirth. Since you argue the same in the law blogs. No Holy Spirit in your heart working through you to follow the law, no working of the Spirit on this question because you do not believe in spiritual things. How can you answer? You cannot. For that, it takes an act of God, but you don't believe that either, you believe man saves himself with his free will.
---MarkV. on 8/14/09


Marks Brothers: Are you saying that Gen 2:7 is a lie?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL.

Paradise a part of hell? Try to follow this logic:

(1) God the Father's throne is in heaven.

(2) The river of life flows from His throne.

(3) The Tree of Life spans this very river.

(4) The tree of life is in PARADISE!

(5) Therefore, either Paradise is in heaven or a real river flows from heaven to hell - putting out the flames I suppose.
---jerry6593 on 8/14/09




It does not mean that at physical death one goes "immediately" to heaven without interruption of life in the form of some immortal soul. It may sound that way- but it can't possibly mean that.
Has anyone considered the following:
He ALONE is immortal 1 Timothy 6:16 (GNB).
It's pretty simple and straightforward, isn't it? No interpretation needed there.
That means that You and I, therefore, can't be! Otherwise "He ALONE" would not be immortal as scripture so profoundly states.
---Sirsilius on 8/13/09


Tell me what soul is from the bible.

Be like the Bereans, do an online KJV bible search for "soul."
---Steveng on 8/13/09


Jerry, your definitions are wrong. The soul is related to life, action, and emotions. The spirit knows (1 Cor. 2:11) and is capable of communication with God when a person is brought to spiritual life by the Holy Spirit (Job 32:8, Prov. 20:27, Psa. 18:28). The terms "soul" and "spirit" are sometimes used in Scripture interchangeably, but they are nevertheless distinct (Heb. 4:12, 1 Cor. 15:44).
As to the definition of Paradise, you are wrong again. Paradise is a word derived from ancient Iranian and meaning, "a garden with a wall." That is why the Jews indentified paradise with that part of Hades to which the soul and spirit of the righteous went between death and the resurrection.
---MarkV. on 8/13/09


Mark E, I understand what you are saying.
But I have a question.

The immortal Spirit, doesn't that come from us being in Christ?

And kath, I really enjoyed your last post.
---miche3754 on 8/13/09


Jerry:

You have lost me already. I cannot say I agree with your equation, Soul = Body (dust) + Breath of Life (see Gen 2:7).

I prefer:

1 Thes 5:23 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely, and may your SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Just as there are three person in the God-head, there are three facets to us. Body (dust), Breath of life (soul), Immortal Being (spirit).

Do you agree?
---Mark_Eaton on 8/13/09


"If you believe your spirit or soul actually die, you then are saying you believe in reincarnation."
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09

Eze 18:4 .... the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

No, I don't believe in reincarnation - the word is resurrection. You know, the thing done to DEAD people - not living ghosts.
---jerry6593 on 8/13/09


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Marks Brothers: I try to keep my responses as short and simple as possible so that they are easily understood. But I see that it's not working with you two.

Let's start over, beginning with a few definitions, OK?

Soul = Body (dust) + Breath of Life (see Gen 2:7)

Paradise = Heaven, the abode of the Father, His throne, the river of life and the garden with the tree of life.

If you concur with these definitions, we can continue. If not, please say so and we can discuss them before continuing.
---jerry6593 on 8/13/09


At the seventh trump Jesus COMES to earth. Literally bringing Heaven to earth. He's coming here. Not going anywhere.
At this same instant satan LEAVES with his minions and souls. He's going somewhere. (-:
The first to GO are the DEAD IN CHRIST. Who else went somewhere?
These souls are just that. DEAD. Those that are dead in Christ. How much plainer can it be. And they're LEAVING for goodness sake.
To the lord, during the judgment, death refers to one soul. Not their vessel. (Body)
Again, Jesus isn't going anywhere. He's coming here. This will be Heaven. So, if you're going somewhere, it can't be very good.
I honestly believe that this is a huge blunder that's gonna hurt some folks.
Jus Sayin.... YMMV
---JusSumguy on 8/12/09


Jerry,
Mark E"s answer was very clear just as mine was clear to you. He said, and I quote
"Their spirits would be in Paradise that day. Jesus even says so." I copied down what he said, do you see anywhere where he mentions physical? Do you just like to argue?
Or, are you not able to read correctly because you have some kind of disability problem? Maybe I am been too hard and you do have a physical problem, if that is the case I am sorry.
---MarkV. on 8/12/09


Jerry:

Brother...wow. You dropped a bomb on me. I never expected that response. Let me see if I can get my head around that.

1. What Jesus told the thief on the cross about Paradise was a LIE.
2. The parable Jesus told of the rich man and Lazarus was just a parable, not a statement of any truth.
3. When Jesus told the Father he commits His spirit into the Father's hands, it is not immediate but three days later.
4. In Ephesians 4 it tells us that when Jesus ascended on high he led captives. This takes place after Jesus resurrection and Jesus led captives with physical bodies.

I cannot understand how you believe any of this.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/12/09


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NEITHER ONE! He was buried in a tomb (See the Bible). He was really, really DEAD - that is, not alive in any form, unconscious - just as King David currently is.

I trust that that answer is clear enough.
---jerry6593 on 8/12/09

Jerry6593, that is so wierd. Jesus died in the flesh, not in the Spirit. You would be saying God Himself died. The Word became flesh.

Our spirits/souls never die either. Do you see in Hebrews 12, that in Heaven NOW are the spirits of Just men made perfect. Their perfection came when Jesus rose from the dead.


If you believe your spirit or soul actually die, you then are saying you believe in reincarnation. God is not re-incrnating our Souls and Spirits on Judgement day!
---kathr4453 on 8/12/09


I have seen no rebuttal to the posting (8/9) concerning what Jesus taught concerning the dead. Jesus taught that the "dead" are living. I guess He was wrong.

Mark 12:26-27, Jesus is talking to the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection. Jesus discussed the resurrection, and then he carried the concept farther to "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Jesus taught that the dead are living. He didn't say where they are, but they are living.
---Rod on 8/12/09


Mark E: "Was Jesus in Paradise PHYSICALLY with the thief that same day as the cruxifiction or was He in Paradise with the thief in SPIRIT only?"

One more time .....

NEITHER ONE! He was buried in a tomb (See the Bible). He was really, really DEAD - that is, not alive in any form, unconscious - just as King David currently is.

I trust that that answer is clear enough.
---jerry6593 on 8/12/09


Steveng:

What about the souls/spirits of Jesus and the thief? What happened to the spirit of Jesus while His body was in the tomb?

There is no word play here. Jesus stated the fact without any mistakes or any misdirection. Their spirits would be in Paradise that day. Jesus even says so.

Luke 23:46 "Jesus called out with a loud voice, Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he had said this, he breathed his last".
---Mark_Eaton on 8/11/09


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Let us reason this out.

Was the thief and Jesus in paradise on that day? No. Jesus died that day and was buried. He was buried for three days. Was Jesus in paradise after he was resurrected? No. He was still on earth for many days thereafter.

You need to understand language. Let's say you applied and got a job. When someone asks you where do you work, a few, using the language spoken at the time, will say, "I work at Luntz, Inc." But you have not actually started working, but only accepted.
---Steveng on 8/11/09


Jerry, if you are born again, which I hope you are, your Spirit is always in the presence of God. You are still walking and talking and arguing about hell and the spirit but you have breath and you have life, and yet you are in the presence of God. Why? Because you are not separated from God anymore. When you were lost you were spiritually dead, Separated from God. Now you are in the presence of the Lord. Don't you believe this? If you don't, then you have got a bigger problem then I thought.
---MarkV. on 8/11/09


Jerry:

You never answered my question, "Is this your thinking on the subject"? Let me put the question in a different way.

Was Jesus in Paradise PHYSICALLY with the thief that same day as the cruxifiction or was He in Paradise with the thief in SPIRIT only?

This is the question you are avoiding.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/11/09


MarkV:

Jerry, sometimes your arguements are so rediculous. you said,
"MarkV: So Lazarus walked around for years WITHOUT the breath of life in him, eh"

"Lazarus, who was brought back to life, his spirit was still in the presence of God, nothing change in the Spirit, ONLY THE PHYSICAL BODY came back to life. When he died later on his spirit was still in the presence of God."
---MarkV. on 8/9/09

I think I'm beginning to figure you out. You have serious memory problems.
---jerry6593 on 8/11/09


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There will be two resurrections:

The first resurrection is when the dead in Christ rise and the living are to be caught up with them.

The second resurrection is after the thousand year reign of Christ when all the other dead will rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works.

Blessed are they who rise at the first resurrection for they will not see the second death.
---Steveng on 8/10/09


Matthew 28:52-53 And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Apparently the early church and Writer of the Scripture held that there was some sort of consciousness of the dead as these 'spooks' Jerry speaks of did in fact come out of the graves.

Wonder where they went after they 'appeared to many'.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


Jerry, sometimes your arguements are so rediculous. you said,
"MarkV: So Lazarus walked around for years WITHOUT the breath of life in him, eh"
To be alive is to have breath. Jesus does not bring people alive without breath, to live is to have life.
Then you said, "Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish"
Of course when a person dies, his breath is gone and he is put in the grave, and his thoughts stop while he is dead. "But Christ is the resurrection and the life, and now you are questioning the ability of Christ bringing someone back to life." When will it all end Jerry?
---MarkV. on 8/10/09


MarkV - //Are you suggesting that in their believes some "in Christ" will not have eternal life and some will.

Yes, I believe that is what their Investigative Judgment states. The doctrine basically states that only those who obey the 10 commandments (especially the Sabbath commandment) are genuine Christians. There is an abundance of their literature that will tell you just that.

It has been the trip-wire teaching that has caused many in the sect to resign their ministry since it cannot adequately be defended from Scripture.
---Lee1538 on 8/10/09


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Lee, help me on what you stated,
"Very well stated Mark, however, Jerry's religion requires belief that the dead are not conscious and will only be awaken to face what they call the Investigative Judgment - a judgment that will determine who in Christ will be worthy of eternal life."
Are you suggesting that in their believes some "in Christ" will not have eternal life and some will? And that this is done when they are awaken at some point in tine and this judgment comes about?
---MarkV. on 8/9/09


MarkV: So Lazarus walked around for years WITHOUT the breath of life in him, eh.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

So you now claim that there were two conscious entities claiming to be Lazarus. A spook clone! Do you have any idea how nutty that sounds? Why is spiritualism so attractive to you?
---jerry6593 on 8/10/09


Very well stated Mark, however, Jerry's religion requires belief that the dead are not conscious and will only be awaken to face what they call the Investigative Judgment - a judgment that will determine who in Christ will be worthy of eternal life.

Of course, they totally ignore the plain meaning of those New Testament scripture that supports the view that there is no condemnation for those in Christ (John 5:24, Romans 8:1) and that there will be no judgment for those who have passed from death to life (John 5:24).

Such is the problem of creating doctrines from the Old Testament alone. Scripture should be interpreted by scripture.

So whatever Christians will state, there is little or no chance Jerry will change his mind.
---Lee1538 on 8/9/09


Mark 12:26-27, Jesus is talking to the Sadducees, who did not believe in the resurrection. Jesus discussed the resurrection, and then he carried the concept farther to "And as touching the dead, that they rise: have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."
Jesus taught that the dead are living. He didn't say where they are, but they are living.
Why wouldn't Paul in Corinthians mean what he says,"...absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord?" It is consistent with other passages.
---Rod on 8/9/09


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MarkV, Vivid imagination? Where in the scriptures does it say that your "spirit" is anymore than your life breath?
Root word is pneuma (Gr.) means air, breath ! What is the meaning of "Pneumonia, pneumatic??"
The only thing leaving your body at death is your last breath!
You leave it in God's hand to return you to life via resurrection!
God breathed into Adam, the breath of life and Adam became a living soul!
Get over the spooky ideas of ghosts!
---1st_cliff on 8/9/09


Jerry, Christ was with the Father when He died in the flesh. His Divine Spirit does not die. Jesus said, "Father into your hands I commit My spirit" Normally victims of crucifixion died much slower deaths, Jesus, being in control simply yielded up His Spirit (John 10:18, 19:30), committing it to God, thus He "offered Himself without spot to God" Luke 23:46.
When a person is born of the Spirit, he is in the presence of God. If he dies his spirit is in the presence of God. Lazarus, who was brought back to life, his spirit was still in the presence of God, nothing change in the Spirit, only the physical body came back to life. When he died later on his spirit was still in the presence of God.
---MarkV. on 8/9/09


joseph: You make a good point concerning Lazarus. Had he been alive in heaven for 4 days, one would think that he would have all sorts of fantastic tales to tell. But alas, none are recorded.

What are the essential differences between the belief that life continues as a disembodied spirit after death and the forbidden belief in ghosts and spiritualism? I can't think of any.
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


Jeryl: "Jerry, that very day the thief was with Christ in Paradise." No, he wasn't because Christ wasn't there yet. He was still in the grave. This "spiritual body" thing is not biblical. Paradise and heaven are the same place. Want proof?

The Father's throne is in heaven.

The river of living water flows from God's throne.

The tree of life spans this very river.

The tree of life is in Paradise.

Thus, heaven and Paradise are the same place.

QED
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


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In death there is no awareness:

[ECC 9:5] For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.

[ECC 9:6] Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished, nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.

With no awareness in death the passage of time is instantaneous. So as soon as you die comes resurrection, though a thousand years may have past.
---Ryk on 8/8/09


Concerning the grave, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. This means the "dead" as we know it are alive to God. If you want scripture, I'll look it up.
---Rod on 8/8/09


MarkE: No, the Bible only mentions TWO general resurrections - one occurs at Jesus' second coming (1 Thes 4:13-17), and the other 1000 years later (Rev 20:5,6). Jesus promised the thief the he would (future, undetermined date) be in the first resurrection (those who are awakened from the sleep of death and taken to heaven).

Sheol is simply the grave. The same place where King David (a man after God's own heart) remains unconscious today, awaiting the 1st resurrection (Act 29-34).
---jerry6593 on 8/8/09


If Paul meant what most here seem to believe he meant by that term, then he did the young man he raised from the dead a serious injustice in snatching him from the bliss of heaven back to the corrupted system of this world, and Jesus did Lazarus an even greater injustice seeing that Lazarus would have been in the LORD's presence four days before he was raise.
When mary was informed that Lazarus would rise again, she stated that she knew he would be raise in the resurrection of the last day, Jesus did not attempt to correct her concerning that statement. He simply made it known to her that He was the resurrection and the life. Also note that jesus made it plain that Lazarus was dead. How can one be raised from the dead if one never dies?
---joseph on 8/8/09


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Jerry:

So followng your thinking through, when Jesus told the thief of the cross he would be with Him in Paradise, the thief was resurrected with Jesus that day. Jesus was not in the tomb three days and three nights, as Scripture predicted, and the thief was the second-born of the resurrection, Jesus being the first.

Is that your thinking on this issue?

Please tell me what Sheol was? It is mentioned over fifty times in the OT. Did a person's body go to Sheol? Proverbs says to rescue a person's soul from Sheol.

I cannot believe you wrote the post you did. The resurrection of the body is all through Scripture, even within Orthodox Judaism.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/7/09


Mark E: Your separated (body-spirit) theory is not supported by the Bible. Jesus told the thief that "you will be with ME in paradise" - not with MY SPIRIT. Jesus said to Mary "I have not yet ascended - not MY BODY has not yet ascended." You have added to scripture that which is not there. The Bible never speaks of people's bodies walking around without the breath of life in them.
---jerry6593 on 8/7/09


Steveng, Right on! The dead are dead 'till resurrected!
---1st_cliff on 8/6/09


Jerry, that very day the thief was with Christ in Paradise. Paradise was the abode of the righteous dead until Christ's blood could be applied to the eternal mercy seat in heaven. Christ's spiritual body did go to Paradise on that first day, but it was not until the Resurrection that Christ would ascend to the Father and apply his blood to the Mercy Seat in Heaven, thereby allowing the righteous dead to ascend to heaven.
---Jeryl on 8/6/09


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Jerry:

You are talking about two different things and you omit a key component of the verses to make your point.

Luke 23:43 "And He said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

When Jesus said that, He was describing their SPIRITS would be in Paradise, not their bodies. Their bodies stayed on the crosses and were buried.

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her, Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to My brethren and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.".

Jesus tells her to not touch Him for His BODY has not yet ascended to the Father. This is the resurrection of the body Jesus is describing.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/6/09


Mark Eaton: If your explanation was intended to clear things up, it missed the mark by a wide margin. You claim that Jesus told the thief on the cross that He (Jesus) would accompany him to heaven on that very day (Friday). Yet two days later (Sunday), Jesus, out of His own mouth, confirmed that He had not yet gone to heaven. In your mind, was Jesus lying on Friday or on Sunday?
---jerry6593 on 8/6/09


Leon, We've crossed paths many times on these blogs,and you know what? I think deep down you're probably an alright guy ,a little misled but OK.
Come down off that broad highway and join us few on this narrow cramped path,sure you get a few bumps and bruises but hey, when you reach the narrow gate you will shout Hallelujah!
---1st_cliff on 8/5/09


1st_cliff: "If you're comfortable following a Pharisee, so be it. Like you they believed in and preached "imortality of the soul" while Jesus preached "resurection"!"

There are two resurrections. Jesus was not talking about the resurrection, but of the Kingdom of God - the gospel, the good news - and how to get there at the first resurrection where the dead in Christ rise first and the living shall be caught up with them.

The second resurrection is when the rest of the dead from all of earth's history shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works.

Blessed are the ones that rise at the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 8/5/09


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Donna, your correct as to your answer to Jerry. While he tries very hard to keep Christ in the grave, Jesus Spirit was already with the Father in heaven, for before He died He surrender His Spirit to the Father. In deity Christ was with the Father so to tell the thief that today you will be with Me in paradise was not a lie but truth. In His incarnated human body which had not ascended is also true because His body had not been resurrected yet.
The body of the thief was also going to be going to the grave but His spirit which was alive to Christ because he believed was going to be with the Lord.
When they speak of Christ, they strip His deity. A common practice for those who argue against Christ been the God-man.
---MarkV. on 8/5/09


Jerry:

You are using two confusing passages in Scripture to make a doctrine out of. Let me explain why they are confusing and why you should not use them.

The death and resurrection of Lazarus. Was he in a coma? If he was dead, did his spirit stay with his body? Did his spirit go to heaven? Did Jesus snatch his spirit down from heaven? Too many questions that we do not know the answer to.

The ascension of Jesus. Peter tells us that He decended before He ascended. How did He do either? Why did He need to ascend? Jesus stayed on earth 40 days after He ascended. Will we do that also?

There are too many unanswered questions in these passages to use them as doctrine about death or what happens after death.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/5/09


Donna: Jesus used the same expression "sleep" to describe Lazarus' state in death. As for what He said to the thief on the cross, it was not until the invention of the comma 1500 years later that Jesus' words were made to infer immediate transport to heaven. This fact is confirmed by His own statement to Mary two days later that He had not yet ascended to heaven.
---jerry6593 on 8/5/09


God bless & keep you Cliff, & cause His face to shine upon you. :)
---Leon on 8/5/09


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A christian could not understand the New Testament without the foundation - the Old Teastament. Paul wrote two letters to the Corinthians. The first letter was one of instruction, the second was more of a personal letter, praising them. You would get a better understanding of Paul if you read the letters without the verse numbers. I don't believe you would write a friend having verse numbers, would you? Verse numbers are a detriment to understanding because a christian usually tries to analyze the verses instead of reading the entire letter in context.
---Steveng on 8/4/09


Leon, It's obvious that you have many supporters on here,all "Paulites" (like yourself) in fact I think you outnumber us Christians!
If you're comfortable following a Pharisee, so be it. Like you they believed in and preached "imortality of the soul" while Jesus preached "resurection"!
As a child we played "follow the leader" but now my leader is Christ not Paul!
Left,right,left,right...
---1st_cliff on 8/4/09


jerry6593--
I remember what the Bible says happened when Stephen was stoned. The Bible says he "fell asleep". That seems to have been a commonly used expression concerning death.

Maybe you should search what JESUS said to the thief on the cross. It's a little more specific.
---Donna66 on 8/4/09


"Ronald & Phil..." Donna, 8/2/09

I agree with you Donna. This is a very subtle question. It first questions Paul's credibility & then denies Scriptural authenticity of what he said under inspiration of God. Very subtle & the same old unChristian naysayers are present on this blog, bent on discrediting God's apostle & sewing seeds of discord & confusion wherever they can.
---Leon on 8/4/09


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Donna: Paul's writings were difficult to understand, as Peter pointed out. Many times he refers to the antagonism between his carnal (fleshy) nature and his spiritual (Christ controlled). But, the account of Stephen's death (while Saul/Paul looked on) is easily understood. Search what the BIBLE says happened to Stephen after he was stoned.
---jerry6593 on 8/4/09


The spirit of every dead person returns to GOD. The Bible teaches that.

But what is our spirit? It is our Breath, who we are and what we were. It is not a intellgent living entity apart from the human body.

People used to try to teach we have an immortal soul. But now they try to make the Spirit what they used to say the soul was. But they are two different words and do not mean the same thing.

When I die I will sleep till the LORD wakes me up. To me it will be as if no time passed at all. So when I die I will be present with the LORD.
---Samuel on 8/3/09


Jerry6593-

I can see your point about speaking metaphorically, but can't seem to make it fit
Phl 1:22-24

" But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor, yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.

For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you."
---Donna66 on 8/3/09


2Corinthians 5:1-8, Philippians 1:20-25, 3:21, 1John 3:2. One of the principal themes here is that a Christian receives a glorified body upon death. 5:3 shows that we will not be a disembodied spirit. A clear reading of 5:6 & 8 compares being in this corporal body which is here on earth, and in a new body that would be physically in the Lords presence. This neither represents Christians collectively as the body of Christ, nor can it be compared to 5:16.
Other subjects in 5:9-21 are that we are to serve the Lord, we are a new creature, and of his substitutionary atonement on the cross.
---Glenn on 8/3/09


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Donna, your context is true. In verse 6 of 2 Cor. 5 At home in the body absent from the Lord" because heaven is a better place than earth, Paul would rather have been there with God. This statement simply states Paul's feelings and longing of v.6 from a reverse perspective in Phil. 1:21,23, "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor, yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." Paul knew if he died he would be with Christ that moment. If Paul knew he was going to the grave to sleep he would not want to be absent from Christ.
---MarkV. on 8/3/09


Tom2, If paradise, to you, is a hole in the ground you must be part groundhog.
Jesus was laid in the tomb and stayed there 'till the 3rd day! Bible says so!
Move the comma where it's supposed to be (after "today") and it will make proper sense!
---1st_cliff on 8/3/09


ronald and Phil the Elder--

Would either of you or both, explain how II Cor 5: 1-15 is being taken "out of context"? Neither of you has said what you DO believe it means! No matter How carefully I read, in context to the best of my understanding, I come up with the same thing.... when we die and our spirit is no longer housed in the body, it is then with the Lord.

Please don't accuse of "blasphemy" without saying what you believe the truth really is and why.
---Donna66 on 8/2/09


Concerning Paul's use of the expression "absent from the body - present with the Lord," have you considered that he possibly used this expression as a metaphor similar to our current expression "I'm with you in spirit?" For example:

1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed

He also uses the same metaphor 5 times in 2Cor. Consider also that the "body" is a metaphor for the Church - the "Body of Christ." Thus, although Paul was at the time absent from the Church at Corinth, he was present with God in his daily walk with Jesus. So may we be in our daily walks.
---jerry6593 on 8/2/09


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the thief on the cross was told by jesus that he would be with him today in paradise.
---tom2 on 8/1/09


Stephen --- I don't think Christians are so desirous of death. No matter how wicked and filthy the world, most Christians want to live. Even Paul.

Phl 1:22-24 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor, yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.

For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.


(If Paul believed he was just going to the grave to await reunion with Christ later, I don't think he would have said this. In that case it wouldn't make any difference WHEN he died. He wouldn't be "hard pressed between the two")


---Donna66 on 7/31/09


I think you all should STUDY these verses, then pray and ask Father God what they mean.

When we die, our spirit leaves our body and our body goes to the grave. Where then does our spirit go? Hopefully not to hell but to Heaven. Then, one day, the spirit will be reunited with the body on resurrection day.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
---anon on 7/31/09


Phil....how do you know this? You may a kind of fist pounding declarative statement
Please tell Clarke, Gill, Henry and Barnes their commentaries used worldwide are wrong?
---larry on 7/29/09


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Paul said this because he was a Pharisee and Pharisees ,as a sect, believed in the immortality of the soul,
contrary to scripture!
One of the reasons Jesus denounced them! He said "you are from your father the devil..father of the LIE"
The "LIE" was what he told Eve,"you will not surely die"
---1st_cliff on 7/29/09


We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I take it to mean (as I feel and many others express to me in spirit) that the Christians want to be dead and reborn with Jesus. They are in fact tired of the evil and wicked men of this earth. There is just disgusting sinfilled to the max people in this world and they are tired of living in it.
---stephen on 7/29/09


"absent from the body...present with the Lord" is a blasfemias misquotation of scripture, it is only the last part of a verse and incorrectly quoted at that. It is one of the two verses used to incorrectly imply that people go to heaven immediately after death, prior to the resurrection of the dead and judgement.

The people who do this are simply prostituting scripture for the own aims, as any one who quotes scripture out of context does.

When you quote scripture out of context it is simply becomes a pretext for false teaching.
---Phil_the_Elder on 7/29/09


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