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How To Keep The Sabbath

HOW should we keep the sabbath?

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 ---anon on 8/10/09
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Why is it every time you see the word "law" you jump to the conclusion it means the Ten Commandments? *****

self professing RELIGIOUS christianity continues to reference 600+ ceremonial laws that were BLOTTED OUT by Christ in Col 2 ...REMEMBER word ordinances is Greek word dogma the CIVIL CEREMONIAL rules requirements from law of Moses (ORDINANCES OF MEN)

civil laws are not the perfect sure right PURE LAWS of God Psalm 19 described by Apostle Paul as JUST And GOOD Romans 7:12

Sabbath is PERPETUAL (meaning forever) Ex 31:16

OBEYING is what free-loving lip service (Mark 7:6-9) RELIGIOUS christians HATE to do IGNORING a dozen verses were Christ tells True Christians to KEEP his commandments (LAWS)
---Rhonda on 8/15/09


Jerry //And just where is the revised content of the New Covenant Law, with its alleged deletion of the Ten Commandments, to be found?

Reference any mention by Christ in the gospels or by the writers of the epistles in the New Testament regarding the "new covenant".

"This cup is the NEW COVENANT in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

Do you not know the New describes something that replaces Old?

Do you not find it interesting that there is neither a command or even a suggestion found in the NT that Christians observe any day?

The New Covenant is not a re-hash or an addendum to the Old Covenant like some would like to believe.
---Lee on 8/15/09


Jer. 31:31-32 Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant they broke, ...

The scripture is plain that the New Covenant will not be a re-hash or an addendum to the Old Covenant, but something NEW. Thus the laws written on the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit is not be to the 600+ laws found in the Old Covenant.

Those that advocate selective OT laws not found within the New Covenant, really are those that live by the flesh and do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
---Lee on 8/15/09


The question most Sabbaterians who advocate Sabbath keeping, truly find horrifying, simply is 'how could the Gentiles do by nature what the law required and still did not observe the Jewish Sabbath"?

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

I have yet to see anyone Sabbath keeper able to give any satisfactory and convincing comment on this yet.

Perhaps the fact that Gentiles observed Sunday as a day of rest, was considered satisfactory by the Lord.
---Lee on 8/15/09


The Law of Christ was written into our hearts, not the Ten Commandments. WHY would God want to write the ten commandments into our hearts when the law DIDN'T WORK?
---Gary on 8/15/09

The 10 commandments were only written in stone in the Old Cov. The Israelites promised to obey in thier own power. That did not work. In the New Cov, God writes the 10 commandments in our hearts, where we obey out of love in Christ's power. This does work. It is a much better covenant revolving around the 10 commandments than the old one.
---Gina7 on 8/15/09




Why is it every time you see the word "law" you jump to the conclusion it means the 10 Commandments? There were over 600 laws in Old Test
--Gary 8/15/09
"Sin is the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4

"Do not commit adultery" "Do not kill" "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty" James 2:10-12

"I had not known sin, but by the law, for I had not known lust, except the law had said, "Thou shalt not covet"" Rom 7:12

"Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good" Rom 7:12
---Gina7 on 8/15/09


"If ye love me, keep my Commandments" John 14:15. Which commandments? "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" and "Love thy neighbour as thyself" Matt22:37-40. By Loving God, you keep the 1,2,3,4th commandments & by Loving your neighbor, you keep the 5,6,7,8,9,10 (the ones dealing w/neighbors) The New Cov is God writing these laws in our hearts so that we obey out of Love (Heb 8:10). The Law of Christ is Love(Gal 6:2)You fulfil the Law of Christ by loving God & man.
---Gina7 on 8/15/09


jerry //...if we wanted in on it, we had to become grafted in as spiritual Jews (Abraham's seed).

I would suggest that you make an appointment with a minister from a church that preaches the gospel. He should be able to inform you and explain the applicable scripture that we do not become Jewish upon becoming Christians, that becoming the true Israel is not the same as coming under the (obsolete) laws (Hebrews 8:13) of the Old Covenant, especially those laws not found within the New Covenant of the church.
---Lee on 8/15/09


Frances: //The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses are not the same thing.

According to theological dictionaries, the 10 commandments is included in the law of Moses.
****

Exactly why MEN FOLLOW MEN

self professing RELIGIOUS christianity FOLLOWS MEN and their theological REASONING with their official dictionaries about Gods Word

TRUE Christians SIMPLY read follow and OBEY Gods Word

The Ten Commandments GIVEN BY GOD are not same as the laws of Moses which incorporate Gods 10 Commandments

but a play on words by deceptive self professing RELIGIOUS christians would be deliberately evasive to what was GIVEN by God and what was already GIVEN and incorporated by Moses in their laws
---Rhonda on 8/15/09


Gary, the reason she does that is because the prophecy of the Torah being written on our heart is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34. In it, the word "Torah" is found, the same word used in Genesis 26:5 in regards to what Abraham kept, the same word used as that which was given at Sinai. The Jeremiah verses are repeated in Hebrews 8, and so we know we are speaking about "Torah" in that sense because it is a quote from the Tanach (OT) and not something "new."

Messiah said he did not come to abolish Torah but to fulfill it. Fulfill can't mean he does away with it because that would mean he abolished it when he said that wasn't why he came.

Peace.
Ken
---Ken_Rank on 8/15/09




Since the New Covenant is God writing His Law into our hearts (Heb 8:10) it was the unchanged 10 Commandment Law at Christ's death. This includes the 7th day Sabbath.
---Gina7 on 8/14/09

Why is it every time you see the word "law" you jump to the conclusion it means the Ten Commandments? There were over 600 laws in the Old Testament.

The Law of Christ was written into our hearts, not the Ten Commandments. WHY would God want to write the ten commandments into our hearts when the law DIDN'T WORK?
---Gary on 8/15/09


"I can see why your spirituality is so very confused as you base all your beliefs on laws given only to the Jewish people and not found in the New Covenant of the church."
---Lee on 8/14/09

Uhh, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't Jesus and ALL his disciples Jews? Seems as though I read that the New Covenant was made with Israel (Jews), and if we wanted in on it, we had to become grafted in as spiritual Jews (Abraham's seed). Guess that leaves you out! And just where is the revised content of the New Covenant Law, with its alleged deletion of the Ten Commandments, to be found?
---jerry6593 on 8/15/09


James really warns us that faith (mental acquisition) without works is dead, but he is really speaking of a dead faith not one that is alive.

Those born by His Spirit will have a faith that will exhibit works and those works will primarily be for service of others and the upbuilding of His church.

Not the type of works that may make us feel good such as observing rituals, ceremonial laws like observing days, months, years (Gal. 4:10) - things that superstitious religious people that do not have the Spirit would cling to.
---Lee on 8/15/09


Unfortunately I find few who understand that the New Testament doesn't (or didn't) start until AFTER Jesus died on the cross.
---Gary on 8/14/09
"For where a testament is,there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force AFTER men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth" Heb 9:16,17 The New Test(Covenant)was made by the blood of Christ on cross. It came into effect the moment He died. Nothing could be added to or taken away after that. Since the New Covenant is God writing His Law into our hearts (Heb 8:10) it was the unchanged 10 Commandment Law at Christ's death. This includes the 7th day Sabbath.
---Gina7 on 8/14/09


Meira - James 2:17 is NOT referring to the law.

Here's an example of works:

If I have faith that God will keep me safe, then I go on a trip worry-free. Works simply means to follow your faith. Don't just say you have faith, but live by that faith. If you say you have faith but then do things to contradict that faith, that is not faith with works.

If you put something in God's hands and have faith that God will take care of it, but try to handle it yourself, that is faith without works.

It simply means to live by that faith.
---Gary on 8/14/09


Gentile Christians was not force to keep it (Sabbath)(Acts 15)
-Ignatius 8/14/09
Acts 15 says nothing about Gentiles not having to keep Sabbath. I have read my Bible. The results of Acts 15 were to be spread by the Apostles as they met on the Sabbath with Gentiles. Obviously, no doing away with Sabbath here:

Acts 15:21
"This is basic wisdom from Moses, preached and honored for centuries now in city after city as we have met and kept the Sabbath."
Acts 15 dealt mainly with the issue of circumcism. If they had made a double standard ruling they would have Jewish Christians keeping the Sabbath at the pain of death, and Gentile Christians not keeping it. Unity in Christ? Obviously Sabbath was kept by all
---Gina7 on 8/14/09


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Jesus Created us (John 1:1-3) and then rested on 7th day. Then Jesus redeemed us and rested in tomb on 7th day (from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday then was resurrected) making 7th day Saturday Sabbath the dual memorial of creation and redemption. It is even more special now, not done away with.
The Sabbath shows God is creator, and He is the God not to take His name in vain, not to make an idol of, etc. Without the 4th, all 9 can be applied to Baal, or any false god. The Sabbath is the seal of the law, that binds them all together.
Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact. Catholic Record of London, Ontario, Sept 1, 1923
---Gina7 on 8/14/09


Meira - Regarding James 2:17

The Greek word for "works" means, from Strong's Greek Dictionary: by implication an act:deed, doing, labour, work.

It has nothing to do with the law. Your good deeds should show your faith.
---Gary on 8/14/09


Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It appears that the 2 scriptures contradict each other. But that can't be possible. So what is each saying.

Paul is addressing those that said that the man made traditions justified one's faith-stating that their ideas were incorrect.

James, in chapter 2, is referring to Elohim's torah as given to Moshe stating that evidence of your faith is done by obeying the Elohim's instructions (torah).

If one's faith has no laws (torah, instructions), then by what does one live by.
---Meira on 8/14/09


Frances: //The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses are not the same thing.

According to theological dictionaries, the 10 commandments is included in the law of Moses.

Law of Moses (Eastons Bible Dictionary)

Is the whole body of the Mosaic legislation #1Ki 2:3 2Ki 23:25 #Ezr 3:2 It is called by way of eminence simply 'the Law' (Heb. Torah,) #De 1:5 4:8,44 17:18,19 27:3,8 As a written code it is called the 'book of the law of Moses' #2Ki 14:6 Isa 8:20 the 'book of the law of God' #Jos 24:26 The great leading principle of the Mosaic law is that it is essentially theocratic, i.e., it refers at once to the commandment of God as the foundation of all human duty.

Ungers Bible Dictionary has much the same.
---Lee on 8/14/09


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Romans 3:28 "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

After Jesus rose from the dead, that age (B.C.) was over & a new age (A.D.) began. That's when the New Covenant began. Sabbath was part of the old, obsolete covenant (Hebrews 8:13).

The Name Jesus Christ is the only Name under Heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).
---Betty on 8/14/09


A missunderstanding has occured here.
The Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses are not the same thing. The ten commandments were never nailed to the cross, that is why christians still honour thier fathers and mothers. The sabbath is not the law of Moses which we are not under, it is the law of God, spoken and written by God. COnsider this: james two speaks about THE WHOLE LAW, the examples that james goives are murder and adultery. James says if you break one (1/10) then you are guilty of them all. 1/10 includes the law to remember to keep the sabbath day.
---Francis on 8/14/09


Mark Eaton claims Matt 22:37-40 dissolves True Christians from Sabbath even though this verse doesn't and NO OTHER verse supports abolishing Gods Sabbath Day

failing to comprehend these TWO ARE THE commandments ...FIRST 4 point to love of God ...LAST 6 point to love of man

Sabbath is PERPETUAL - meaning FOREVER Ex 31:16

ONLY those who obey Sabbath are set apart by God Ex 20:12

if Christ "abolished" his sabbath Mark 2:28 is a lie ...SIMPLY because there are no verses for another day

rcc's foolish PROTEST-ant daughters deliberately DISMISS Gods Truth to SERVE rcc by disobeying God and choosing rcc's traditions Mark 7:7 ....even their MOTHER rcc BOLDLY PROCLAIMS God NEVER ABOLISHED his Sabbath Day
---Rhonda on 8/14/09


"Jesus set an example for us concerning the Sabbath" (Jerry).

Let's not cherry picked parts of Christ life. Jesus kept the Passover and every other Jewish feast day as well, Mt 26:17-18. Jesus command to keep all the ceremonial Laws of Moses, Mt 23:2. Jesus command to offer animal sacrifices, Luke 5:14, Mark 1:44. Jesus was born and died under the Old covenant and Jewish law: Gal 4:4. Jesus kept many things in addition to the Sabbath law. He kept the entire ceremonial law of Moses!

It is odd that you and other Sabbath keepers refuse to admit that the Sabbath is not a everlasting commandment or that it was given only to the Jews. Gentile Christians was not force to keep it (Acts 15). Perhaps you should read your Bible.
---Ignatius on 8/14/09


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Well Calvin had the Ten Commandments sung as part of his Litergy. Wesley preached on how the Ten Commandments were for Christians. So it seems they did not know that only part of the New Testament is for Christians.

The Bible says all scripture is for doctrine. Yet when SDA insist that this is true we kept getting told that we are under a New Covenant. We know we are under a New Covenant. We ask for where it says not to keep Sabbath and we get no answer.

I keep hearing we do not listen to scripture. But it is not scripture that I get. But small portions taken out of context. Put all scripture together. Explain why down through church History the Ten Commandments are for the church until now?
---Samuel on 8/14/09


Mark-Eaton,

While I can agree with you, there are still those of the old circumcision party (the children of Hagar, Galatians 4) that continues to deny the gospel message that Christians need live under grace and not under the law.

Ga 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law, but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

And such people teach the Levitical dietary laws, obedience to the Sabbath, etc. They truly lack the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide them.
---Lee on 8/14/09


Jerry //Jesus set an example for us concerning the Sabbath Day by His word and His actions. His "custom" was to attend the synagogue every Sabbath.

You still do not get it do you? Jesus was a Jew and followed Jewish laws exactly. But are we under the same Old Covenant laws Jesus was under? Did we become converts to Judaism when we became Christians? Acts 15

Gal.4,4-5 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

I can see why your spirituality is so very confused as you base all your beliefs on laws given only to the Jewish people and not found in the New Covenant of the church.
---Lee on 8/14/09


Mark_Eaton - You have it right. But it does no good to argue or even show scripture to the SDA as they have been taught to "not receive" anything that contradicts their teachings.

erry6593 - Again, and again, and again, I repeat, JESUS WAS BORN, LIVED, AND DIED UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW. Therefore, He was UNDER THE LAW. Jesus NEVER told Christians to observe the sabbath.

Unfortunately I find few who understand that the New Testament doesn't (or didn't) start until AFTER Jesus died on the cross.
---Gary on 8/14/09


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Rueben - //...but then Peter tells them to go to the synagogue every Sabbath day and learn about the law each week so they can add to their understanding every week.

Totally ludicrous!

The synagogues were not the place the Apostles sent Christians to in order for them to learn Jewish laws. In fact, anyone knowledgeable of early church history (or even Acts) should be able to tell you that orthodox Jews who ran the synagogues were extremely hostile to Gentiles or to those who converted to the Christian faith.

Early churches were primarily home churches - see Rom. 16:5, 1 Cor. 16:19, Col. 4:15,Phil. 1:2).

---Lee on 8/14/09


I am so shocked how devisive this issue is.

Jesus/Yehoshua/Yeshua/Yeshu/Yahoshua/Yahshua (???) told us:

Matt 22:37-40 "And He said to him, YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. "This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets"

This is what we need to OBEY. This it the highest LAW we have. Higher than the 10 Commandments, higher than the TORAH. ALL the Bible rests on this. Everything else, is SECONDARY.
---Mark_Eaton on 8/14/09


Jesus set an example for us concerning the Sabbath Day by His word and His actions. His "custom" was to attend the synagogue every Sabbath. He claimed lordship over the Sabbath Day. He spent a great deal of time decrying the "man-made" baggage attached to HIS Fourth Commandment. How strange that today the vast majority of His followers ignore both His word and His example by following some MAN-MADE concept of a rest day - or none at all.
---jerry6593 on 8/14/09


Even the Apostles themselves had to hold conferences in order to resolve some of their issues, i.e. what was required of Gentile converts.Acts 15

We need only agree on the essentials of the faith.
Lee on 8-09

You are right Lee, but you are not reading the rest of the chapter in Acts. It gives them 3 things to START off with in the faith because there were people telling them they had to keep it all at one time, but then Peter tells them to go to the synagogue every Sabbathday and learn about the law each week so they can add to their understanding every week. The word Moses used in that verse is referring to the Torah (Law). They were not saying that the gentiles only had to keep those 3 laws and forget the rest.
Reuben
---Rueben on 8/13/09


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and go get circumcised as without it you are not part of His covenant.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09

Lee your last statement is true, now go back and read heb.8 again and then tell me what the subject of that ch is. as a matter of fact read the whole book of hebrews and tell me what the subject is. It has nothing to do with the commandments that have to do with Holy living. It is speacking about the priesthood and the sacrifices. And notice the slanted words in your translation in chapter 8. the word covenant has been added so people asume it is talking about the commandments and not the sacrifices. There are two parts to the covenant Jer.7:21-24. one is still valid and the other is completed in Yahshua(sacrifices) Heb 8
---Reuben on 8/13/09


Meira - "So we can see that LIGHT is TORAH."

False reasoning and false interpretation. The Hebrew word has several meanings.
---Gary on 8/13/09


Any knowledgeable student of the Bible (you are not one) would tell the commands of God to the ancients were not of the Torah

First, you once again display only disrespect to other people. Your tone is full of hatred. Read 1Jo3:15.

Ps 119:105: "Your Word is...a LIGHT unto my feet." Word in this verse is referring to the Torah. So we can see that LIGHT is TORAH. The word "light" (hebrw 'owr)in this verse is the same "light" used in Gen 1:3.

The "light" that Yah spoke into existence in Gen 1:3 is his Torah. That is why "blood of animals" was able to cover the sins of Adam & Havah (Eve).

So yes, the torah has been since the beginning. 1Jo2:7
---Meira on 8/13/09


You can keep the Sabbath like Yahshua did. Without all the stress of added traditions and laws. Luke 6:1-5

Life happens and we should not let it stop us if we have to save a life, help someone etc. The Sabbath(7TH Day was made for man not the Sabbath to control man). A preperation day dinner and bible study on Friday night with Sabbath day is done for meditating on YAH's creation, worship and rest in homes and community services. God gets the glory, not the Day itself.

Ken Rank-When Greco-Roman church system took over, Apostolic tradition believers were given false legal charges, labled heritical and Jewish..it's just part of being a Shabbot keeper.

Forgiveness and love, and move on up a little higher in Yahushua's power.
---Yochanan on 8/13/09


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//150 years ago the Civil War was started over slavery,...

All of my Southern friends (I used to live in Virginia and Maryland) believed like most historians that the Civil War was started over the issue of States rights, not slavery or treatment of the South by the Northern bureaucrats.

And congratulations Ken, you finally got something right. True that most of the early Gentile church fathers were anti-Semitic and that is why by the end of the first century, very few Christians observed the Jewish Sabbath outside of Jewish communities. SDA church historian and theologian Samuele Bacchiocchi claimed that is why the church no longer observed the Jewish Sabbath.
---Lee on 8/13/09


anon, I liked your comments. Let me respond with some suggestions. Make every day a following Christ day. Do everything (work) as unto the Lord. When you go to work, ask God for guidance. At work, ask God wisdom. At work,when talking to people or doing stuff that needs done, do it as unto the Lord. Ask God how to make work a time of "doing everything as unto Him." It works, I did it for 28 years. I learned probably more on the job than away from the job. Be open to God giving you a different job. Ask God, What's up with this job? Ask God on your way to work, What do You have in mind for me today?
I am not suggesting that these suggestions take the place of the time with the Lord away from work but in additon to your personal time.
---Rod on 8/13/09


I am no longer under the OT laws, so I follow the New Testament:
Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
---Gary on 8/11/09

Gary how do you claim that Co.2:16 tells you not to keep the Sabbath? Do you revere Paul's writings over YHWH's. The Father told us to keep His Sabbath day and that commandment has not changed, and you say Paul tells us not to? That is not what Paul is talking about. He is telling us not to let anyone who is not of the Faith tell us how we should or should not obey the Father's commanments.

Reuben
---Reuben on 8/13/09


It wouldn't matter if God gave the Ten Commandments in Genesis 1, the law ENDED at the cross. We are now under the law of Christ.
---Gary on 8/12/09

It does matter when and where He gave them. the came from His mouth, and you would disreguard them? Gary have you ever read what the commandments are? I dont mean just reading over them but have you really read them? If you have can you name one commandment that would put you in bondage if you were to try to obey it? The commandments for holy living did not end at the cross. the only thing that was stopped was the law for sin and death. Meaning that if you sin you die. we have a replacement for that law who is Yahshua the Messiah. that is what it talks about in Ro. law vs grace
---Reuben on 8/13/09


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Amen Cluny

or as Gods Truth states in Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

self-professing RELIGIOUS christianity follows men and their idea's about God served up in their religious confusion to serve ANOTHER Christ 2Corin 11:4

easily dimiss Gods Word in ALL things to follow men and disobey The Father in Heaven because they HATE Him ...unable to comprehend Rom 8:7, 2Corin 4:4, Matt 6:24

Luke 8:21 ...hear the word of God, and do it.

Luke 11:28 ...blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it

claiming to 'follow a Christ' but they in truth are lawless Heb 10:16 believing 10 commandments are just suggestions
---Rhonda on 8/13/09


Cluny -// you put the weight of your studies on the church fathers and their practices. I place it on scripture. Who is correct? The Church Fathers.//

Anyone who has read any of the works of the church fathers will tell you they often had diverse views of various subjects, or they did not address every issue we would like to comment on.

Your trust in whom is correct should begin with those called into the ministry of teaching by our Lord. However, beyond the essentials, even they have their own interpretations.

Even the Apostles themselves had to hold conferences in order to resolve some of their issues, i.e. what was required of Gentile converts.Acts 15

We need only agree on the essentials of the faith.
---Lee on 8/13/09


150 years ago the Civil War was started over slavery, right? Wrong, the Civil War was started because the South wanted to secede because they were essentially feeding the North and getting over-taxed for it. In just 150 years, we have a different view of a war that almost tore this nation in 2.

The "Church Fathers" were anit-semites (their writings bear this out) who did not want their faith to appear "Jewish." They weren't all bad people, just a product of their culture at the time. But their bias is in their writings and their decisions that have shaped modern Christianity.

Thanks, but I will stick with scripture.
Peace.
Ken
---Ken_Rank on 8/13/09


Lee, comments like me not being a bible student and the tone you use when you write, are hateful second only on this site to Betty. I believe Yehoshua/Jesus is Messiah, God in the flesh, who earned the right to perfect whom he wills. We are saved by our faith in him relying only on his grace and nothing else we can say or do can influence that. Works and obedience are a product of our faith, and do not gain us favor with God.

Does that make me a heritic? Oh, me keeping Sabbath and sharing how and why I do makes me a heritic right? My believing the commandments are applicable to today makes me a heritic right? Or according to scripture, am I YOUR BROTHER?

We are to be peacemakers, not dividers of brethren.

Peace.
---Ken_Rank on 8/13/09


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\\ //Lee... you put the weight of your studies on the church fathers and their practices. I place it on scripture. Who is correct? \\

The Church Fathers.
---Cluny on 8/13/09


//.. you put the weight of your studies on the church fathers and their practices. I place it on scripture.

While I totally place my weight of my studies on Scripture, I realize the early saints were closer to the teachings of Apostles then we are and their interpretation of scripture should not be ignored.

Who is correct? Your interpretation of Scripture or those the Lord has given the gift of teaching?

And is it true the ancient patriarchs, maybe even Adam & Eve even had a copy of the Torah as to how else could they have obeyed the commands of God?

Any knowledgeable student of the Bible (you are not one) would tell the commands of God to the ancients were not of the Torah.



---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


I keep it holy (set apart) by not working. I relax, enjoy quiet time, time with my family, etc. I also cherish that it offers me additional time to read, study and commune with the Master.

There have been times when I haven't worked, but I also haven't rested (like when I've attended a social function). On those days, I've really regretted not taking the time to relax. Even though I'm careful about resting, family time and studying during the week, I cherish the full 24 hour break commanded.

Still, I don't stress about "rules" in keeping it, as Yahushua taught it was made for me and not the other way around. Some get bogged down and make it a task (like the Pharisees), which strips it of its joy in my opinion.
---AlwaysOn on 8/12/09


//Lee... you put the weight of your studies on the church fathers and their practices. I place it on scripture. Who is correct?

The church fathers were closer to the actual teachings of the Apostles and their immediate successors. One principle of interpretation should be to consider how the early saints of the church interpreted the teachings found in Scripture.

While we recognize the fact that they had differing viewpoints on various subjects, the same is true today.

So what is correct? I would side with those to whom the Lord has called into the teaching ministry of the church - those who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of the Word of God.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


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Ken - The commandments, ordinances, law referred to in Genesis 26:5 is referring to God's covenant with Abraham (Genesis 17:9).

So, according to you, because of man's laws, you will follow man's law instead of God's law and not stone to death someone who works on the Sabbath.

It wouldn't matter if God gave the Ten Commandments in Genesis 1, the law ENDED at the cross. We are now under the law of Christ.
---Gary on 8/12/09


Gary, Torah pre-dates Sinai. We see that Abraham kept all of God's Law (Torah) in Genesis 26:5. We see Sabbath being prepared for and kept 4 chapters BEFORE Sinai. But when committed to writing, it became the national LAW os Israel... a constitution of sorts. Kings to hand write their OWN copy of Torah to read to the people and to govern by.

The judgements (death for breaking Shabbat) part of that jurisdiction. However, nobody in the world lives in a country run according to "God's laws." Even Israel today is a secularly run country. To kill a man for breaking God's law would be out of the jurisdiction of any person.

Peace.
Ken
---Ken_Rank on 8/12/09


Lee... you put the weight of your studies on the church fathers and their practices. I place it on scripture. Who is correct? God will judge! In the meantime, I will not respond to any question from you until I believe we can have a discussion that will not become a peeing match.

I can answer your questions, it isn't like I am twisting one little verse to fit some preset paradigm I have. Rather, the volume of the WHOLE book, not JUST the apostolic writings, are considered within the context of both the OT and NT. As an example, if something is called "everlasting" in the OT, and the NT seems to trump it... we need to reavaluate how we look at the NT verse in question. Everlasting means everlasting.

Peace
---Ken_Rank on 8/12/09


Warwick- Thats all you have?? After all I posted thats all you can say is pretty petty. Its only petty because you and those who believe the same as you are being proved wrong by truth which is from scripture. Amazing you cant mount a defense. Even your worship on sunday is proven wrong by the original scriptures. Even Yahoshua's being raised from the dead on sunday is proven wrong by scripture. Mia ton Shabaton- early on the regular Sabbath, golly thats not sunday is it???? Scripture proves christian doctrine wrong, proves its pagan. The original beliefs were so very different, and you dont like the truth , thats a shame.
---wayne on 8/12/09


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I am deeply saddened by the way this country runs the allmighty GOD is replaced by the allmighty dollar. no one keeps any day holy or as a day of rest any more.
---bride_of_christ on 8/12/09

AND any pastor who tells you that God requires the Christian to tithe has replaced the Word of God with the allmighty dollar.

Tithing, like the rest of the law, ENDED at the cross. That's why there is no instruction to tell us how we should tithe today.
---Gary on 8/12/09


I just want to share something funny with you folks about the Sabboth.

I told the Lord, "Lord it would be fine with me if EVERYDAY was the Sabbath for me...lol."

WHY did I tell the Lord that? Because I not only need a break from working full-time, I cram every spare hour I have to spend with the Lord, in His Presence, and on Saturday mornings from 9am to Saturday night at midnight, I spend with the Lord, worshipping, in His Word, Studying, Worshipping Him, Fellowshipping with Him and it is really refreshing for the Monday through Friday work week that I hate facing. Then I spend 2 hours each night with Him to say filled. SO I want to keep the Sabbath EVERYDAY - LOL!!! Funny, huh?
---anon on 8/12/09


Rueben - //People say the the Messiah done away with the Sabbath and made a "new" covenant? Where is THAT found in the bible?

Try reading Hebrews chapter 8, especially 8:13 "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."

While God's word is simply that, there is much in the Bible that does not apply to the Christian, as such is addressed to individuals or to the nation of Israel. If you believe otherwise, then go build a boat as God told Noah to do so, and go get circumcised as without it you are not part of His covenant.
---Lee1538 on 8/12/09


I am deeply saddened by the way this country runs the allmighty GOD is replaced by the allmighty dollar. no one keeps any day holy or as a day of rest any more.
---bride_of_christ on 8/12/09


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Wayne do you really think Jesus will be concerned whether we call Him Jesus or another version of His name? Is He not concerned with the heart, rather than the peripherals?

BTW Wayne is the English version of the original name Waegn. Shouldn't you call yourself this correct name?

Petty isn't it?
---Warwick on 8/12/09


The religion of Christianity is BASED on the teachings of the Messiah of Israel, Yahushua, however they call Him by a Greco-Latinized name. "Christianity" is not the religion of the Messiah (the Creator, Almighty), nor Israel, but rather is a religion ABOUT the Messiah. It is not the religion practiced by the early followers of the Messiah either, although it is promoted to be. And yet we who want to keep the commandments are called hypocrites!
---wayne on 8/11/09


When people realize that the Messiah of Israel doesn't have a Greek name (Yahushua as opposed to "Jesus") or title (Mashiach as opposed to "Christ"), they may ask themselves why the Creator's religion would have a Greek name (Christian, Christianity).
---wayne on 8/11/09


Basically, they are saying, "They are babes in the Messiah, barely able to stand, let us not trouble them with what WE KNOW about serving Elohim (God) in Torah, for they have plenty of time to learn this later as MOSES IS TAUGHT EVERY SABBATH IN EVERY CITY. We have had our WHOLE LIVES to learn Moses, they have not."

In his very first recorded teaching, the so-called Sermon on the Mount, Yahushua proclaimed, Think not that I am come to destroy the law [Torah], or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law [Torah], till all be fulfilled. (Mat 5:17-18 KJV)
---wayne on 8/11/09


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People say the the Messiah done away with the Sabbath and made a "new" covenant? Where is THAT found in the bible? When the Father gave His commandments,that was it, there was no changing them to sute ones needs or style of living. No one can reverse His commands. And IF the Messiah did do that as the church teaches then He is a false prophet according to Deut.13. The Sabbath is the sign that the Fahter gave to seperate His people from the rest of the world. Think about it, who in the world is it that keeps the Father's Sabbath? The "Jews" and anyone else that follows YHWH's commandments. And who in the world is not keeping His Sabbath? Nonbelievers, and christians who think that their messiah came and done awaywith it.
---Reuben on 8/11/09


Sabbath is not worshipping God, but to rest.

Worship God every day and all times.

Do good works every day.

If you want to observe Sabbath, take rest from all works on Saturdays. That is Sabbath. This is the fourth commandment of the Ten Commandments.

The Lord Jesus Christ told the Jews not to rest on Sabbath days, but to do good works.
---Dave on 8/11/09


//But, the Lord Jesus Christ has revised the rest day as the day of good works. Sunday is not a Sabbath day.

According to the Westminster Confessions, Sunday is regarded by the Church as the Christian Sabbath.

In any case, there is no requirement in Scripture for Christians to observe any day as holy (See Romans 14:5f).

Christians observe Sunday as the rest day because the Apostles and their immediate successors established it as a tradition.

Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, was considered a workday in all parts of the empire except among Jewish communities. It would not have been feasible for Christians, most of whom were from lower economic and social class, to observe the Jewish Sabbath.

---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


You so-called "Sabbath keepers" are hypocrites. You don't keep the sabbath.


Exodus 31:14 (KJV)
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore, for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 35:2 (KJV)
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

I am no longer under the OT laws, so I follow the New Testament:
Colossians 2:16 (KJV)
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
---Gary on 8/11/09


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Ken - //Good question Anon. I answer with a question, since Shabbat was given as an everlasting command, why did it need to be repeated?

Where in the Bible does it tell us that the Sabbath was given to mankind as an everlasting command? Or is this simply another one of your assumptions?

If the Sabbath was an everlasting command, why O' why, do we not see anything about it in the New Covenant of the church? Was not important enough to be mentioned?

Did the church fathers, many of them near successors of the Apostles themselves fall into apostasy regarding the Sabbath as we find nothing in their writings promoting Sabbath observance?

An reply would be appreciated.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


\\Sabbath day is Saturday, that is, from Friday 6:00 pm to Saturday 6:00 pm. \\

Where did you get this idea?

During many days of the year, the sun is still bright at 6 pm and has not set.

The Sabbath properly starts (and ends) at sunset.

Would you like to try again?
---Cluny on 8/11/09


The question is how should we keep the Sabbath?
Sabbath day is Saturday, that is, from Friday 6:00 pm to Saturday 6:00 pm. If you want to keep it, you and all yours should take total rest on Saturdays. That is how to keep Sabbath. "Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"
But, the Lord Jesus Christ has revised the rest day as the day of good works. Sunday is not a Sabbath day.
---Dave on 8/11/09


There are Jewish sects who are able to keep the sabbath pretty much. They walk to church among other things they do to keep the "law" like they think they should.
---SusieB on 8/11/09


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Shabbat is a day of rest from earning money, not from helping others. In my faith we fast on Shabbat, the food we would have eaten on Shabbat we give to the poor, we visit the sick, we visit those who are shut ins. Plus we visit those in prison. Our worship starts on Friday at sundown until saturday at sundown. Yeshua healed on Shabbat, they ate on Shabbat. The Jews made man made rules for Shabbat, and this is what Yeshua came to do away with. Shabbat is a day of worship and a day to do for others only, not for ourselves. Shabbat teaches us that YHVH is in control, and we need to trust in Him for everything.
---wayne on 8/11/09


The Orthodox jews wont even roll toilet paper on Shabbat, where does YHVH command this. Yeshua came to do away with these man made rules. Yes I believe we should keep the Shabbat, for we are to walk as Yeshua walked. But we are do follow YHVH's commandments, not the man made rules. Christians say we dont need to , and some Messianics follow the man made rules, when will believers wake up. Plus Shabbat is the day Yeshua was raised from the dead, not sunday. The Greek text says Mia ton Shabaton, which means early on the regular Sabbath, yet most bibles say early on the first day of the week, so yes Shabbat is to be kept.
---wayne on 8/11/09


Anon>> My second question is: Is it anywhere in New Testament that Jesus told us to keep the Sabbath? Or did he heal someone on the Sabbath and the Pharisees mocked him for it. What was Jesus's response to that? I forget.

Good question Anon. I answer with a question, since Shabbat was given as an everlasting command, why did it need to be repeated?

Messiah did heal on Shabbat, but there is NO Torah command that says a person can't. There are seven (7) Shabbat commands, and though Rabbis over the years have turned that into 39 CATEGORIES and over 4000 LAWS, God gave us 7. And all seven come down to this... rest! Shabbat (Sabbath) is the ceasing from out works, a time of rest, to refresh for the next week.

Peace.
Ken
---Ken_Rank on 8/11/09


Sabbath-keeping is not required since Jesus Christ came & established the New Covenant.
---Betty on 8/11/09


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How does one keep the Sabbath?

One keeps the Christian Sabbath by going to church on Sunday, and doing only necessary work.

The principle behind the original OT Sabbath was one of rest from labor for the benefit of man himself. (Mk. 2:27)

And he said to them, 'The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath'.

It is very unfortunate that the Sabbath is still a problem among Christian denominations, whereas it should not be.
---Lee1538 on 8/11/09


I encourage you to read---Gary's comment written on 8/10/09.
---mima on 8/11/09


Anon . . . about if it is against the Sabbath to go out to get something at the store during the Friday sunset til Saturday sunset Sabbath > Numbers 15:32-36 > a man gathered sticks during the Sabbath, and the LORD commanded that he be stoned to death. I would say this means you get everything ready before the Sabbath, so you can fully give yourself and your *attention* to the LORD during the Sabbath. And, in us, this would mean we are not doing work and other things, in our minds and hearts, but it is God's time. And then spiritually *stay* this way in this rest which Jesus alone can give us > "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)
---Bill_bila5659 on 8/11/09


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