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Ten Commandments In Force

Why do some Christians insist that the Ten Commandments are no longer in force for them?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/19/09
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Some of you just dont get it.Your belief means nothing,you need to act on that belief. When someone believes in Yahushua but breaks the commandments, what has thier belief gotten them. Nothing. James says we must believe and act on that belief, James says faith alone does not save. John says if we say we know God but violate the commandments we are liers. Look up the word for commandments in the 1st epistle of John- it means Torah. So to violate Torah proves us liers if we say we know God. But most here would rather follow thier feelings, thier conscience, which cannot be trusted anyway. The way to life is narrow and few be there that find it! Scary if you think about that statement.
---wayne on 8/24/09


Where in the bible does it say our present days are the same as the early ones?

---alan8566_of_uk on 8/24/09

Do you think God would require us to keep holy the 7th day, at the pain of death, which is the punishment for sin, Romans 6:23, if we could not ascertain which day is the 7th? Jesus kept holy the 7th day in His day, and by the 5770 year old Jewish calendar, we are keeping the same 7th day as in the days of Christ. The Jews still keep Saturday, which is the 7th day. God has preserved the weekly cycle.
---Gina7 on 8/24/09


In Matthew 19:16 We notice when the young man asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life,Jesus mentioned he needed to keep the commandments but did not specify keeping the Sabbath but only those that pertain to moral conduct.

we note nowhere in the New Testament do we see a command or even a suggestion to observe the OT Sabbath.

As Saturday was a workday in most of the Roman world, and the fact that most Gentile Christians came from the lower ecomonic & social classes (1 Cor. 1:26), it would have not been feasible to require Gentiles to observe the Jewish Sabbath. Common sense should be enough to see that.

Can we visualize a Christian slave asking his master to have Saturday off for religious reasons? LOL
---lee on 8/24/09


I believe that we are and always will be under the Moral Law of God, which is written in our hearts. We know that we should not kill, that it is a sin to committ adultry, that it is a sin to steal, or to covet what our neighbor has, etc.

Concerning the Rich Young Ruler (Matt 19:16-30)
His question was "Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Christ's disciples reiterated the question in verse 25, saying in astonishment, "Who then can be save?"

Christ answered them all in verse 26. "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Our salvation is not by works, but by the grace of God, and the shed blood of Christ!
---trey on 8/24/09


Ruben -**Are you sure you are not some kind of a Pope, because you expect everyone to believe in our own fallible un-authoritative interpretation of scripture!

Yes, I am sure I am not a pope like in Rome, an annointed prophet like Ellen White or Charles Taze Russell as I depend very heavily upon church theologians for interpretation of scripture.

And I do not believe everyone must accept my viewpoints. In fact we have seen many of the early church fathers having diverse viewpoints on such topics as the nature of the Eucharistic elements, baptism, etc.

It is wise to seek other counsel as Proverbs 16:25 tells us that "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death".
---lee on 8/24/09




//As you know, EGW was 13 years old in 1840, and it was a Baptist (William Miller) who predicted Christ's return in 1844. She, in fact, spoke against any time setting for His return. But Lee doesn't need facts. He seems to make up his own.

You ignore the facts that White totally endorsed Millers false belief and that long afterwards even predicted (or should we say 'prophesized') that those who were at a SDA conference would never see death (Battle Creek,MI,May 1856)

And Jerry she made a statement that wearing wigs can cause a person to become reckless in morals (Healthful Living, p. 1851)

Do you really believe that she was a true prophet of God and said that? If you do you are truly on a leaky ship.
---lee on 8/24/09


gina - You are definitely wrong about Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Sabbath in that verse means the weekly Sabbath. Even prominent SDA scholars now believe as do others that 'festival, new moon, & sabbath' reflects terminology of the OT and summarizes annual, monthly, & weekly celebrations.

See and compare 2 Kings 45:23, Amos 8:3, Isa. 66:23, 1 Chr. 23:31, 2 Chr. 2:4, 8:12-13, 31:3, Neh. 10:33, Isa. 1:13,14

We went over this before and you should know better to pitch an interpretation now disputed even by SDA scholars.
---lee on 8/24/09


Matt 19:16-17 ...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments

Which commandments?

Christ summed #5-9 of HIS commandments AS REPRESENTATIVE OF THEM ALL (Matt 19:18)

AND how do we know Christ was speaking about ALL the commandments ...just KEEP READING ...young mans RESPONSE

Matt 19:20 ...The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

YET somehow counterfeit christians DUPED MANY into believing the young man only kept 5 of Gods 10 commandments ...how absurd as they swim around in their LIES and many are brainwashed into believing this young man was KEEPING only 5 of Gods Commandments while rest of ancient Israel (aka Jews) were keeping ALL Gods commandments
---Rhonda on 8/24/09


alan8566_of_UK: "MarkV ... You've hit the nail on the head! Who is to say which day of our week is the actual accurate anniversary of the day God started Creation? The Bible doesn't say."

Let's reason this out. The Israelites have been observing the Sabbath for over eigth thousand years. The Israelites were, and are still, God's chosen people. In the OT, when the Israelites were bad, they were punished by God himself. When they were good, they were rewarded by God. If they were good, but did not observe the Sabbath as commanded would God still reward them? Of course not. The Israelites, to this day, continue to observe the correct day of the week as the Sabbath - from Friday evening to Saturday evening.
---Steveng on 8/24/09


Gina ... Mark was quite right.

Where in the bible does it say our present days are the same as the early ones?

And in any case, we are told to labour for 6 days and then rest (as God did) It does not say which days.

I started work on a Wednesday ... so by literal reading of the Commandment, I should thereafter rest on Tuesday.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/24/09




God did not leave us to guess which day is the Sabbath, Exodus 20:8-11 states the 7th day is the Sabbath. Today's 7th day is the same one as creation. The weekly cycle has been preserved from that time to this. Since the 4th commandment requires the observance as holy of the 7th day, God would not allow the correct 7th day to be lost to oscurity, otherwise it would be a valid excuse for disobedience, which it is not. As we all know, there is no excuse for sin. John 15:22 margin. Therefore, there can be no excuse for not observing the correct 7th day. We do not choose just one day in 7, only the 7th day is holy, sacred, set apart by God. Do we unsurp God and specify another day? No!
---Gina7 on 8/24/09


The same 7th day we have on our modern calendar is the same one from creation. The weekly cycle has been preserved from that time to this. If time had been lost, it was corrected when God rained Manna on the 7th day in Exod 16. If time had been lost by the time of Christ, he would have corrected it, but instead worshiped on the 7th day then. In the past 2000 years, we have no time lost, and all changes to the calendar did not effect the weekly cycle.
---Gina7 on 8/24/09


Are we really sure you are not a Roman Catholic instead of an SDA? They both have 'infallible popes' to whom you must bow down to.
---Lee on 8/24/09


Are you sure that you are not some kind of a Pope, because you expect everyone to believe in our own fallible un-authoritative interpretation of scripture!
---Ruben on 8/24/09


The 7th day Sabbath of Creation, was instituted before sin, as was marriage. Marriage and the Sabbath are shadows of NOTHING. They were created for the benefit of mankind, before sin came along and ruined the perfection.

The Ceremonial feasts and sabbaths all pointed towards the future Messiah and were a shadow of the coming Messiah. This is why the feasts and ceremonial sabbaths (which could fall on any day of the week) are no longer observed as their pointed forward purpose was fulfilled.

The 7th day Sabbath, on the other hand, points backward, to Creation, and is a perpetual memorial of that fact. It also is now a memorial of our redemption by Christ, as He rested on 7th day from redeeming us.
---Gina7 on 8/24/09


Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Act 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Act 15:26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
---TheSeg on 8/24/09


//You'll note that your detractors, (principally Lee) is equally as deficient in history as he is in knowlege of the Bible. For example, his swipe at poor dead EGW:

While I often give you a historical reference for what I post, that is obviously one thing you have NEVER done.

Probably the only one you will ever on church history comes from a distortion by old dead Ellen White in whom all too many of SDA scholars reject.

Are we really sure you are not a Roman Catholic instead of an SDA? They both have 'infallible popes' to whom you must bow down to.
---Lee on 8/24/09


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"one booted out of a church back in the 1840's because she believed one could predict the hour Christ would come again. Mt. 25:13"

I've never heard anyone from that timeframe declare that they knew the exact hour when Jesus would return.
---dconklin on 8/24/09


MarkV ... You've hit the nail on the head! Who is to say which day of our week is the actual accurate anniversary of the day God started Creation? The Bible doesn't say.

And if we read Ex 20.9 & 9, we see "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work .. but the seventh is the sabbath" It doesn't say which six days.

If I first worked on a Wednesday, strict literal obedience to those verses would mean that ever since then, I would have to observe the "Sabbath" on Tuesdays.

Insistence on treating Saturday (or indeed Sunday) as the day for Sabbath observance is religious legalism gone mad. No Christian would be abe to take a job, say medical,involving Saturday or Sunday working.
---alan8566_of_UK on 8/24/09


Gina: Keep up the good work! You sound like a kindergarten teacher correcting the silly notions that the children picked up on the playground. Hang in there.

You'll note that your detractors, (principally Lee) is equally as deficient in history as he is in knowlege of the Bible. For example, his swipe at poor dead EGW:

"one booted out of a church back in the 1840's because she believed one could predict the hour Christ would come again. Mt. 25:13"
---Lee on 8/23/09

As you know, EGW was 13 years old in 1840, and it was a Baptist (William Miller) who predicted Christ's return in 1844. She, in fact, spoke against any time setting for His return. But Lee doesn't need facts. He seems to make up his own.
---jerry6593 on 8/24/09


Jerry, you would be hard pressed to find a passage where God said that creation started on Sunday, and that the Sabbath meant Saturday anywhere before Exodus 20:10. That it was kept on Saturday we know, but God never said it had to be Saturday.
Third, Col. 2:16-17 Paul explicitly refers to the Sabbath as a shadow of Christ, which is no longer binding since the substance (Christ) has come. It is quite clear in those verses that the weekly Sabbath is in view. The phrase "a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly days of the Jewish calendar (1 Chronicles 23:31, 2 Chron. 2:4, 31:3, Ez. 45:17, Hosea 2:11).
The Sabbath was a sign to Israel of the Mosaic Covenant (Ex. 31:16-17.
---MarkV. on 8/24/09


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//If you obey the nine commandments, then why do you not remember the sabbath day and to keep it holy?

Because the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Mosaic covenant (Exodus 31:17) and is not found as a command or even suggestedd in the New Covenant of the church.

In fact, the Lord tells us in Romans 14 that one may not esteem any day as holy or we can view all days as alike.

It was not mandated by the Jerusalem council and it would have been impractical to do so in Gentiles cultures since Saturday was considered a normal workday.

Finally if love of neighbor fulfills the law, then what has the sign of the Old Covenant to do with your neighbor?
---Lee on 8/23/09


One obeys God because God asks us to. Not to be saved, but because we are saved. The Pharisees were not Christians. Christ made it clear they were whited seplecures, pure on the outside, filthy on the inside. The true obedient Christian should not be this way.

So, the Pharisees were not really keeping the 10 commandments, because they had hatred and killing of Jesus in their hearts. They were not commandment keepers. Yes, Jesus does not want us to be like them.. he wants us to be true commandment keepers, obedient to God, in Christ's power. I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me. Phil 4:13 I can overcome as Christ did Rev 3:21
---Gina7 on 8/23/09


Do you have other gods before you? do you have statues of anything in the world? Do you use the Lord's name in vain? Obey your parents? Do you commit murder? commit adultry? Steal? Lie? Or covet your neighbors things? If you obey the nine commandments, then why do you not remember the sabbath day and to keep it holy?

Because you are selfish end-time christians. The word of God intrudes on your lifestyle. You make excuses that you work/go to school during the week and you need time for yourselves. Friday night and Saturday are YOUR free times, a time to push God aside, a time for you to go out with frineds and family, a time for entertainment, a time to play.
---Steveng on 8/23/09


Paul was told by James to sacrifice in the temple for the reason of proving he wasnt going against the law of Moses. This is what scripture says. But those of you christians who do not like this, come up with every excuse in the book. Plus you breaking everything Yahushua has said, so do what you will. You have been given truth but dont want it, for by your brand of christianity, all you need is belief. Have at it, but either way scripture proves you wrong.
---wayne on 8/23/09


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The pharisees, the chief priests and scribes of Jesus day, are examples of people who followed the 10 commandments (and all the ceremonial laws) strictly. Were they righteous because of it? Did Jesus tell people to be like them? In fact He told people NOT to be like them!

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

---Donna66 on 8/23/09


The pharisees, the chief priests and scribes of Jesus day, were people who followed the 10 commandments (and all the ceremonial laws) strictly. Were they righteous because of it? Did Jesus tell people to be like them? In fact He told people NOT to be like them!

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Did Jesus come to say, "Follow the 10 Commandments"..."Follow the Laws of Moses!"? No, He came to say "follow ME!"

Someone has said, quite truly, Jesus did not come to make bad people good, but to make dead people live. The Commandments give no one eternal life.
---Donna66 on 8/23/09


//"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God Forbid!" Rom 6:1,2

Everyone can agree with that, that one must not continue in sin after receiving grace. However, Scripture also acknowledges the fact that you will continue to sin from time to time. If you ever say your are without sin, you really do not know the truth.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Maybe poor John really did not understand what Ellen White came to teach, that one must be totally free of sin upon reaching the death bed.

It all goes back to your lack of understanding of the doctrine of sanctification. You might look it up in any good book on Christian doctrine.
---Lee on 8/23/09


While Jerry loves to quote Exodus 20:10 "... but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."

He must totally ignore the previous verses which state -

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Exodus 20:2

And we can laugh when he has no answer as to when the Lord brought him out of Egypt.

Perhaps that is why he must believe that when one become a Christian he must also be Jewish. They totally reject the decisions made at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.

Jerry, God told Noah to go build a boat, so have you build yours yet? You must do so since all God's commands must be obeyed.
---Lee on 8/23/09


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The lord fulfil the law!
Because of this, they say it is done!
He said, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

The question is will you hold up Christ, and the forgiveness of sin.
Or hold up the law and the sins there in!
But, can you forgive all?
Think, can you, and why must you!
Forgive all!
Why?
---TheSeg on 8/23/09


Gina //And once led to Christ, you find Christ upholding the same 10 commandments:

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (beginning with faith and ending with faith,) as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith.

If the righteous live by faith, will one also observe commands found only within the Old Covenant of the church such as the levitical dietary laws, sabbath keeping, festivals, etc. etc.?

You really need to go to a church that preaches the Gospel, not to some group founded by one booted out of a church back in the 1840's because she believed one could predict the hour Christ would come again. Mt. 25:13
---Lee on 8/23/09


If you feel you are justified by the law instead of by His grace, then by all means do exactly what Jesus did. Obviously you will fail miserably.
---Lee 8/22/09

"Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God Forbid!" Rom 6:1,2

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my Father in his throne" Rev 3:21

Overcoming sin just like Jesus did is not justification by the law. Label obedience to God and His law justification by the law, when it is nothing more than being obedient to God, a process called sanctification.

"I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" Phillipians 4:13
---Gina7 on 8/23/09


//If one keeps Sunday as Sabbath, and breaks it, does Jesus provide perfect Sunday keeping to cover it? No. Jesus never kept Sunday.

Gina, again you have no concept at all as to what the New Covenant of the church really is.

while Jesus was indeed a jew and followed the law exactly as it was intended, we read "when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,to redeem (make acceptable) those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons". Gal. 4:4f

If you feel you are justified by the law instead of by His grace, then by all means do exactly what Jesus did. Obviously you will fail miserably.
---Lee on 8/22/09


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gina - while we do not reject what is said about the law, you also need to consider the fact that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ. Once that function has been accomplished, we no longer need the schoolmaster.
---Lee on 8/22/09
And once led to Christ, you find Christ upholding the same 10 commandments:
"If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said "Thou shalt do no murder, thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.." Matthew 19:17-19

Christ shows that loving God you keep the 1st 4 commands, and loving neighbor you keep the last 6. Matt 22:37-40.
---Gina7 on 8/22/09


the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ. Once that function has been accomplished, we no longer need the schoolmaster.
---Lee 8/22/09
All the statements from Bible about the law being in effect stating that we will be judged by them, were made after Christ was resurrected. Romans, 1 John, James, Hebrews. If law were no longer in effect years after Christ left earth, they never got that message. Instead, the Apostles got the message across that God's law was to be followed.

"For if we sin (break 10 commandments) wilfully after we have received knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins but a fearful looking for of judgment" Heb 10:26

It does not get any clearer than that!
---Gina7 on 8/22/09


If one keeps Sunday as Sabbath, and breaks it, does Jesus provide perfect Sunday keeping to cover it? No. Jesus never kept Sunday. Jesus only provides perfect 7th day keeping to cover 7th day breaking. If we sin willfully and do not keep Sabbath, we do not have His perfection to cover us.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, but doeth it not, to him it is sin" Jam 4:17 If one knows Saturday is true Sabbath, but chooses to keep Sunday instead, to him it is sin, and there is no righteousness of Christ to cover you for it, for you sin willfully. "For if we sin willfully after that we have received knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a fearful looking for of judgment" Heb 10:26,27
---Gina7 on 8/22/09


MarkV: "Jerry, God did remind me to keep the Sabbath, and I do on every Sunday."

I'll let God answer you:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments, and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Mat 28:1,6 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre... Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen,

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
---jerry6593 on 8/22/09


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gina - while we do not reject what is said about the law, you also need to consider the fact that the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to faith in Christ. Once that function has been accomplished, we no longer need the schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:24f Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.For ye are all the children of God by faith (not by law)in Christ Jesus.
---Lee on 8/22/09


wayne,
Acts 21:25: "As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication."

Question:
In your church, do you have 4 hairy men standing by, ready to shave their heads to vouch for another mans's questioned integrity? If you don't, it may just well be that your church is a gathering of believing gentiles for which no such thing was ever prescribed?
---Nana on 8/22/09


//Was Paul told to sacrifice in the temple,if so by whom and why?

Acts 21:20f

By Jerusalem church to verify to fellow Jews that he still respected Jewish law and customs, many of which he considered optional and not mandated to Gentiles.

He was also the main figure at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15)regarding what was required of Gentile converts.

1 Cor. 9:20f To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
---Lee on 8/21/09


"I had not known sin, but by the law.. "Thou shalt not covet"" Rom 7:7

"Wherefore the law (10 commandments) is holy, and the commandment holy, and just and good" Rom 7:12

"Sin is the transgression of the law (10 commandments)" 1 John 3:4

"The wages of sin (breaking 10 commandments) is death.." Rom 6:23

"Whoseover is born of God does not commit sin (break 10 commandments) 1 John 3:9

"Do not commit adultery" "Do not kill" "So speak ye, and so do.." Jam 2:10-12

"For if we sin (break 10 commandments) wilfully after we have received knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" Heb 10:26
---Gina7 on 8/21/09


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wayne - **I have one question for those who are against the commandments.

It is doubtful that you will find anyone here that believes we should continue to sin.

Ro 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

And is there anyone here that does not believe the fulfillment of the commandments or law is summarized by love of neighbor?

Rom 13:9 The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, not murder, not steal, not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself....therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Will those who are indwelt by His Spirit desire to be a slave to what is wrong? (6:16)
---Lee on 8/21/09


I have one question for those who are against the commandments.


Was Paul told to sacrifice in the temple,if so by whom and why?

Lets see how honest your willing to be.
---wayne on 8/21/09


And such is the OT Sabbath, never commanded or listed as a sin in the New Testament.
*****

It was never commanded because it ALWAYS existed ...it IS PERPETUAL (this means FOREVER) Ex 31:16

amazing how self professing RELIGIOUS christianity is so easily DUPED by men and their traditions Mark 7:6-9

FAILING to GRASP most BASIC of all scriptures and IMPLY many idea's that simply don't exist

NOTICE: most easily understood is Christ and Apostles always KEPT the Sabbath and sun-day was NEVER commanded by Gods Word ONLY by rcc ...believing Christ is Lord of sun-day is absurd SIMPLY because HE NEVER KEPT the suns-day ...SUN-day is SATANS DAY
---Rhonda on 8/21/09


John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another, as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

"Jesus said when you love, you have fulfilled all of the law and the prophets in Matthew 22:40. So this covers more than 10 commandments."

It says, on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
---vet on 8/21/09


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//The Law shows us exactly what is our sin and thus condemns us and drives us to our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Dconklin, that is true as that is basically what Galatians 3:24-25 states. However, once the law has fulfilled its function, we are not longer under it.

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And we may agree that it is the Holy Spirit (often thru His Word) that convicts us of sin. But if something is not a sin, then we can conclude that the Holy Spirit will not convict us. And such is the OT Sabbath, never commanded or listed as a sin in the New Testament.
---Lee on 8/21/09


Jerry, God did remind me to keep the Sabbath, and I do on every Sunday. You are trying to pull hairs Jerry as always with you legalistic views. In your mind Saturday is a much better day then Sunday, while I think all days are great. Seoncd, a person does not have to read minds in order to see what you are doing. You of all people can be read very easy. "You will know them by their fruits" That is how I know what you are up to. You want to stay under the law that is your decision. No one is stopping you.
There is Pharisees today, wolves in sheeps clothing. Scripture warns us of those who are legaistic, from withing the body of Christ who condemn those whom God has already bought with His blood.
---Mark_V on 8/21/09


//God Himself wrote for you to REMEMBER the Sabbath.

And God told Noah to go build a boat but are we to do so?

God told the Hebrew people to 'remember' the Sabbath, but are we the Hebrew people?

This kind of very bad and false theology comes from those who really do not know the Word of God or its Author.

They view Christianity as simply another ethical religious system under which they hope to merit eternal life.
---Lee on 8/21/09


MarkV: "it offends you if I worship Sunday or any day for that matter."

Now Markie, I've had had to correct you several times on your false belief that you (as one of the elite chosen) have the inherent ability to discern the thoughts and intents of other peoples' minds. You don't, but it would appear that you can't resist the temptation to do God's job for Him.

One more time: I readily grant that you have the right to esteem any day you want, but I have the right to point out that God Himself wrote for you to REMEMBER the Sabbath. And your response to Him (not me) is "FORGET IT!" Are you mad at Him for writing it?
---jerry6593 on 8/21/09


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//Lee- you make Paul to be lawless and Torahless.

When you understand what the gospel is, you will see that Christians need only be under the Law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21, Gal.6:2).

I can see why you are confused since "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned".1 Cor.2:14

Paul himself was given a new nature when he was born by the Spirit of Christ and in following that new nature, he considered all his good works to be but trash. Php. 3:8

We pray the Lord will give you eyes that see while there is yet time.
---Lee on 8/20/09


>you fail to understand Christians lives by faith (Romans 1:17) under the Law of Christ, not under Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law is a misnomer. God wrote it on tables of stone cut from His own throne. The Law shows us exactly what is our sin and thus condemns us and drives us to our Savior, Jesus Christ. If there were no Law there'd be no sin, and no need of faith or a Savior.
---dconklin on 8/20/09


Lee- you make Paul to be lawless and Torahless.

Acts 16:13-15 described Sabbath worship with Lydia and those accustomed to praying by the river side near Philippi in Macedonia. In Acts 17:10 Paul and Silas went into a synagogue in Berea, and many honorable Greek women and men believed. In Acts 18:4 Paul reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath at Corinth, reasoning with the Jews and the Greeks. The same story was repeated in Ephesus (Acts 18:19 and 26, 19:8). I can prove Paul taught Torah, you twist his words to your own destruction
---wayne on 8/20/09


1 Cor. 9:19f To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (thro not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Wayne, was St. Paul a lawless person, Torahless? He obviously did not preach the Sabbath to Gentile converts (Acts 21:21) and he was the main opponent against the Judaizers at the Jerusalem council.

you fail to understand Christians lives by faith (Romans 1:17) under the Law of Christ, not under Mosaic law.

Anyone indwelt by God's Spirit would know that.
---lee on 8/20/09


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Lee- you can say were legalists, and yet you and others like you are lawless, Torahless. Scripture backs up my beliefs, but strangly it doesnt back you up. You use Paul as an excuse even though He kept Shabbat and they other laws. You make him to be lawless, but after using Paul you cant answer questions about him. This is why I tell you not to run to Paul, but yet as Peter says you twist Pauls words as the rest of the scriptures to your own destruction. So call me what you want, you put me in the same group as the Apostles, not a bad group to be in. You follow church tradition, not scripture, yet are to blind to see this.
---wayne on 8/20/09


I heard this a long time ago and it makes very good sense.

One of the Ten Commandments is: Thou Shall NOT committ adultery.

Jesus comes along and says, If you even look at a woman and lust for her, you have already committed adultery with her.

What does that tell you? I know all of you smarties on here can figure it out .
---anon on 8/20/09


Someone who has made the choice of Loving God with all his/her heart, mind & soul there 1st priority, and Loving their neighbors as they do themselves, people like that won't murder, steal, ect, ect, ect, thereby fulfilling all of the 12 commandments & ALL of the ones of the prophets, You have the SON of God, Yahshua/Jesus's word on this too...

Just make sure you not one of the ones that will be saying, Lord lord, i went to church & i gave money and i did this and i did that, WHY am i in trouble, and then HE/Jesus replies, Because "I" never knew you!
YLBD
---YLBD on 8/20/09


Wayne //I asked a simple question, and as usual you cant answer it. That tells me all I need to know. I can at least answer
the questions and prove what I say, you cannot

Sorry you are unable to understand what is being posted.2 Cor.4:4

About grace, have you ever read with any level of understanding? -

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10.

we can all agree with Mark & others, you and Jerry are legalists and simply enjoy accusing Christians.
---Lee on 8/20/09


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Mark- You can say what you wish, but I have said what is true, weather you dont agree or like it matters not. I used to be a christian like you, but finally woke up. I finally stopped reading tradition into scripture and let it speak for itself. You and others like you though are more than likely good people, will never look at truth. And thats a shame, you condemn the law of God even when he sayds it will last foever. Im sorry for you and will remember you in my prayers.
---wayne on 8/20/09


MarkV- Once again you as every christian run to Paul, why? So I will ask you the same question which no one has answered:

Show me where Yahushua said we do not have to follow the law.

Dont always run to paul, Yahushua is supposed to be your Master, not paul, correct?
---wayne on 8/20/09


Christians claim Jerry and I condemn anyone who doesnt agree with us,wow!!! How funny those who say they believe in the God of Ysrael and follow a Hebrew Mashiach, yet claim the same law that the God of Ysrael gave and His Mashiach upheld, is done away with. Then claim Jerry and I condemn them for it, no you condemn yourself! You dont like the fact that certain people on this forum will stand toe to toe with you and tell you your wrong. This complaint comes from the same person who calls us enemies of Christ because we dont believe his way. My master is Yahushua, not you or paul, my God is YHVH not you or paul.
---wayne on 8/20/09


Wayne, you and Jerry are the only one's with a legalistic behavior who want to continue to condemn others for what you believe to be true and they don't. Didn't you get the message from Romans chapter 14? "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil, for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteouness and peace and joy in the Spirit" v. 19, "Let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one many edify another. Do not destroy the work of God" for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense" Don't you see yourself been spoken of in theses passages? You want others to go against their conscience.
---MarkV. on 8/20/09


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Wayne, you and Jerry are the only one's with a legalistic behavior who want to continue to condemn others for what you believe to be true and they don't. Didn't you get the message from Romans chapter 14? "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil, for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteouness and peace and joy in the Spirit" v. 19, "Let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one many edify another. Do not destroy the work of God" for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense" Don't you see yourself been spoken of in theses passages? You want others to go against their conscience.
---MarkV. on 8/20/09


Jerry, you eat with offense as the passages state. What you say and what you do is legalistic. I don't find that it is wrong for you to worship Saturday, but it offends you if I worship Sunday or any day for that matter. It has to be what you say or else, just as the Pharisees did. You make the SDA's look bad. I know of others who never judge another brother for their day of worship. But you go as far as to post the questions to continue your drama. And let me say, you have never corrected me, because most of what you have say is from a bias stand and false. If it wasn't for you and Wayne there would be no division within the body of Christ. "For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord"
---MarkV. on 8/20/09


Jerry, you eat with offense as the passages state. What you say and what you do is legalistic. I don't find that it is wrong for you to worship Saturday, but it offends you if I worship Sunday or any day for that matter. It has to be what you say or else, just as the Pharisees did. You make the SDA's look bad. I know of others who never judge another brother for their day of worship. But you go as far as to post the questions to continue your drama. And let me say, you have never corrected me, because most of what you have say is from a bias stand and false. If it wasn't for you and Wayne there would be no division within the body of Christ. "For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord"
---MarkV. on 8/20/09


MarkV: "Jerry, It just bothers you so much that others don't believe as you do, and you need to keep the drama going."

Now Markie, I've had had to correct you several times on your false belief that you (as one of the elite chosen) have the inherent ability to discern the thoughts and intents of other peoples' minds. You don't, but it would appear that you can't resist the temptation to do God's job for Him.

One more time: I readily grant that you have the right to esteem any day you want, but I have the right to point out that God Himself wrote for you to REMEMBER the Sabbath. And your response to Him (not me) is "FORGET IT!" Are you mad at Him for writing it?
---jerry6593 on 8/20/09


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Lee- I asked a simple question, and as usual you cant answer it. That tells me all I need to know. I can at least answer the questions and prove what I say, you cannot
---wayne on 8/19/09


Christ taught that we should love God and love our neighbor as our self. He then also taught that all the "law and prophets" hang on these two great principles of love. So, as I take it, though the letter of the mosaic or OT rabbinical type law may not be in force, it seems that Christ is saying that the teachings of the law and prophets are probably still applicable. How can you love your neighbor while stealing from him, or killing him? How can you love God while doing those things that he abhors?
---chris on 8/19/09


Wayne - if we are not justified in keeping the law (Gal. 5:4), and since the righteous live by faith (Romans 1:17), then why need we be concerned about keeping the OT laws which served as a schoolmaster (Gal. 3:24) to lead us to faith in Christ?

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from Godand righteousness and sanctification and redemption1 Cor. 1:30

What would you need to add to that?

If you can find no place in the New Testament that negates an OT law, then you should still be out there somewhere sacrificing a goat or offering a freewill offering.

It is the theology that we view.
---lee on 8/19/09


Lee- show me where being under grace is a new thing. Even those in the Old Test were under God's grace. So if you can show me where Yahushua said not to follow the law. You seem to think God's grace overturns His law. So answer just that one question.
---wayne on 8/19/09


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Jerry, It just bothers you so much that others don't believe as you do, and you need to keep the drama going. When I explained to Warwick my answer on conscience I was refering to the chapter in Romans 14 concerning the actions of some believers over an other. And he says, "Who are you to judge another servant? To his own Master he stands or falls." and he goes on to explain how the two differ in action. Some esteem one day others esteem every day, He who observes the day, and him who does not observe the day, him who eats one thing and he who does not eat that thing, etc. v. 7 says, "For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself" Whether we live or die we live for the Lord.
---MarkV. on 8/19/09


Leslie, wayne //Some Christians have been taught a LIE. The 10 Commandments ARE still for today, and according to Jesus MUST be obeyed.

The problem is with those that study the Bible and have concluded that the church is under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant which was made only with the nation of Israel.

And there is yet another problem, Biblical scholars, teachers, laypeople, etc. have yet to find a single command in the Bible that commands or even suggest that Christians need observe the Sabbath commandment - the sign of the Old Mosaic covenant. Exodus 31:17.

I guess the conflict between the children of Hagar & the children of the promise to Abraham continues. Gal. 4:29
---lee on 8/19/09


Jerry, 2:
He says in the same chapter v. 10 "...Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" v. 14 he goes on to say, "I know and am convinced by the Holy Spirit" The truth was not the product of his own thinking or the teaching of others, it was the divine revelation (Gal. 1:12) and says, nothing is unclean of itself and he says, but to him considers that to him it is unclean" meaning if a believers is convicted a certain behavior is sin even if his assessment is wrong-he should never do it. If he does, he violates his conscience, at which the Holy Spirit gives divine revelation. You are insisting for other to go against conscience.
---MarkV. on 8/19/09


Leslie- YHVH bless you for your post! You are so right, christians have been fed a lie which has kept thier eyes closed. They follow paul instead of Yahushua, they follow rome instead of Yahushua. Most of christianity is pagan through and through and they have been taught - to be a good christian you must violate YHVH's laws, if you keep the law then your a captive your a nut, your not covered by the Mashiach. I have been told by christians that to keep the law makes me an enemy of Yahushua. YHVH bless you Leslie!!!!!!!!!
---wayne on 8/19/09


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Some Christians have been taught a LIE. The 10 Commandments ARE still for today, and according to Jesus MUST be obeyed. When Jesus died on the cross, He fulfilled ALL of the 10 Commandments, He NEVER did away with them or said to stop obeying them. Even the Apostles did NOT teach to disobey the 10 Commandments, but rather to obey them. God is the same yesterday, today, and FOREVER - He does NOT change. Most of the O.T. still applies to today - God did NOT change His mind on this. Rule of thumb - if Jesus and the Apostles NEVER said to stop doing it, that means we are to keep on DOING it today. This includes tithes and sabbath laws.
---Leslie on 8/19/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

The Commandments are now enforced through Him that Loved us, making us more than just conquerors of sin : and nothing shall separate us from His Love. Rom.8:35-39

It's the flesh of mankind that tries, with no avail, to fulfill the Commandments in order to conquer sin, and do to the weakness of a carnal mind sin is able to take occasion within the Commandments to wrought in us all manner of eager desires : deceiving & slaying us because of what the Righteousness of the Law can not do through flesh.

Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made Perfect by the flesh? The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ makes us free from the futile attempts of the flesh to conqueror the law of sin & death.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/19/09


Jerry, it only matters what YOU think and DO. God is watching you. Don't worry about what others are thinking and doing, it will drive you nuts if you do.

Keep YOUR eyes fixed upon Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith.

Work out YOUR OWN salvation with fear and trembling.

We each have to give an account of our lives to God so let others tell God what they want, worry about what you're doing and going to do and going to say to God when he asks you questions.
---anon on 8/19/09


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