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Immortality Of The Soul

Is the belief in the immortality of the soul in death the same thing as spiritualism?

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 ---jerry6593 on 8/22/09
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Lee, what I have noticed lately that there is a lot of people right now on line calling others names and showing a very bad un-christ behavior. Almost demonic. One answer not to their liking and they go ballistic. It is happening all around in almost all blogs. Way too many. It is the spirit of the antichrist which tries to divide, accuse, bring forth doubt. It comes from within the Church as 1 John tells us. Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." This is not human behind it, but spiritual. It is easy for us to answer the same and bring sin to ourselves. Be careful, as I will.
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


Lee considering himself to be more intelligent and qualified than the 'great unwashed' attempts word games. He rejects the 6-days of creation being 24 hours because they may not have been. They may have been 23 hours and 59 minutes and 50 seconds. Nitpicking.

What I have pointed our is that whatever length they were Genesis 1 says they were all the same length. This is confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11 where God again says He created in 6-days of the same length that His people were to work. Six-days is six-days, is six-days.

Lee has no support from Scripture, grammar or logic. Nonetheless he persists with his antiBiblical ideas because man is his authority, not God's word, obviously.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


//Lee: You, on the other hand, seem to make yours up as you go - ignoring what is written and adding what is not written (e.g., 1st 3 days of creation = eons).

I would very much love to have you show me where in the Genesis account it says all the 'days' were of 24 hour duration. You can't do it since the record does not reveal the duration of the periods of creation, particularly the first 3 days.

What you do is to force your theology into the text, I on the other hand simply believe what it states without making the assumptions you do.

And Warwick ignores Romans 14:10 that we are not to judge those who are the Lord's servants. He loves to build derogatory strawmen and then apply them to those who disagree with him.
---lee on 9/14/09


Jerry ... "3. So that he can vote for himself many times on CN"

That's silly!

You don't have to sign in before you vote.

Voting is controlled so that frequent votes are not possible from the same computer. But yuo could move around & use a freinds computer id yuo wanted to boost yuor votes.

And of course there was one here who did manage to multiply his votes, but the system then took them all away, and no more could be allocated to him.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/14/09


Warwick ... No

MikeM had previously been SLCguy.

Neither Lee nor Cluny seem to be SLC people.

And MikeM was the victim not the maker of ad hominen attacks
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/14/09




How about that Jerry Lee thought you and I were one and the same. What would your wife think about that?

There are still two Lee's though. Lee one quotes Scripture to suppport his views. He appears to respect Scripture. But maybe a little heterodox.

Lee number two holds to completely antiBiblical views and does not quote Scripture in support of these. Nor does he respect Scripture.

Both Lee's are impressed with their importance, intelligence and qualifications. Both are rude and abusive towards any who dare contradict their philosophies.

Maybe they are one and the same and he knows Scripture contradicts him on these foundational issues.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Lee: Warwick and I live on different continents. We agree so much because we use the same Bible. You, on the other hand, seem to make yours up as you go - ignoring what is written and adding what is not written (e.g., 1st 3 days of creation = eons).
---jerry6593 on 9/14/09


The only handles that I have ever used on this forum is lee and lee1538. It is truly not necessary to use any others, such would clearly be intellectually dishonest.

I do however, wish that CN would make it so that one would use only one handle. I originally thought Jerry and Warwick were the same as they seem to support each other with their attacks on others.

While one is an old style SDA, the other is simply a wannabe SDA (He cannot even decide if he need to observe the OT Jewish Sabbath).
---lee on 9/13/09


Warwick: "BTW Lee's writing style reminds me of MikeM? One and the same?"

I'm convinced that Lee maintains a bevy of pseudonyms (Who can forget Mary G.?) for several reasons:

1. Because he desperately needs friends.
2. So that he has someone to agree with him.
3. So that he can vote for himself many times on CN.

Your thoughts?
---jerry6593 on 9/13/09


I don't know about spiritualism. But Paul says that only God is immortal. So apparently our souls are not immortal.
---mugwump on 9/12/09




Jerry, Lee self-promotes himself as being highly qualified and intelligent.

His difficulty is he has few weapons to use against those here who expose his liberal views so resorts to ad hominem ridicule. I quite enjoy that which he aims my way. I only wish I had made a note of all of it! Was it Lee who said I had the brains of a water-buffalo or was that 1stCliff?

BTW Lee's writing style reminds me of MikeM? One and the same?

BTW are there two Lee's here? One debates certain topics, flinging Scriptures around with gay abandon. The other seems to stick to issues of our origins and the gospel and rarely if ever quotes Scripture.

Very entertaining.
---Warwick on 9/12/09


Sorry Jerry, but those who are far more educated as either of us, are in disagreement with you on your perfected mistranslation of Romans 10:4.

BTW, a good scholar realizes that there are areas in which he may not have any expertise, and that is certainly true of you who have never studied the Koine Greek.

If you use the KJV, then for Romans 10:4 the Greek translated is 'For end of law Christ [is] for righteousness to everyone believing'. Parallel NT in Greek & English.

This is not attacking the messenger but simply the ignorance of the messenger.
---lee on 9/12/09


//Your arguments are typical of a liberal.

Yes, indeed, like someone that is open minded enough to listen to what the Holy Spirit teaches us through His word.

You really need to understand that most of your beliefs are founded upon the teachings of man (or should I say in your case, that of a brain damaged woman who was kicked out of a church that preached the gospel)?
---lee on 9/12/09


Lee: Your arguments are typical of a liberal. You attack the messenger without ever addressing the issue at hand. FYI, I used only the KJV and Strong's Concordance to PROVE that the meaning is GOAL (tello) and not destruction (katargeo). If you want to be thought a scholar, then act like one.
---jerry6593 on 9/12/09


Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(It'sStillHere)

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
---TheSeg on 9/12/09


//Even in our current english, the word "end" can mean "goal" rather than abolishment.

Jerry, your problem is you really need to select another meaning of a Greek word in order for the verse to fit into your prescribed doctrine.

In the case of Romans 10:4 ALL the Bible versions we have say 'Christ is the end of the law' (or effectively that),not Christ is the goal of the law as you would like to contend.

While I may be highly educated, I certainly would not challenge those that make up the translation teams for the major Bible translations we use today.

Do you have a need to use the SDA Clear Bible, or what they call the Study Bible so you can get the Word to God to say what it really does not?
---lee on 9/11/09


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Lee: For a supposedly educated man, you sure can miss the simplest things!

Your statement: "Then why does Scripture tell us that Christ is the END of the law for righteousness for those who believe?"

Even in our current english, the word "end" can mean "goal" rather than abolishment. But in this verse, the Greek word translated as "end" is "telos," and according to Strong's Concordance:

"From a primary word tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)"

So, Christ is the GOAL of the Law - not the destruction of it.
---jerry6593 on 9/11/09


Romans 10:4: "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Philipians 3:17: "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample."
Psalm 37:37: "Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Philipians 2:5: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:"
Hence,
Romans 3:31: "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
---Nana on 9/10/09


// Christ IS the Passover does not IMPLY Gods LAWS are abolished ...

Then why does Scripture tell us that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe?

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

You may not realize it but there are over 600 laws or commands in the OT and many of them were given only to the nation of Israel, not to the Gentiles.

Was the law governing the wave or thanksgiving offering of grain ever abolished? How about the laws governing the national feasts?
---lee on 9/10/09


When my boy was little, he had asthma.
Doctor after doctor, with no help!

Mom said separate the white of an egg, whip it up and catch the drippings.
Now give this to the boy.

The last drop would be on top, But no different when the first.
I never notice, the time it took. But, it seemed like a long time!
I did notice that every drop went its own way, to get out of the bag.
I also notice every good drop came from the bottom of the bag.
I call it good, because it helped my boy.
My boy never got sick again.
Looking back that was 20 year ago.
Now, it seems like just a moment ago.
This story is true!
---TheSeg on 9/10/09


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..Scripture after Scripture where the new covenant is expressed in the old testament, where Jesus initiates it with the cup, and how the old covenant has been obsoleted by the new.
*****

Christ IS sacrifice the cup abolishes sacrifice of lambs - Christ IS the Passover does not IMPLY Gods LAWS are abolished - PURE reasoning of men ADD this idea DISMISSING Christ as New Passover to celebrate pagan goddess Ishtar/easter in place of Christ yet calling it "christ" 2Corin 4:11, 4:4 1Corin 5:7, Mark 7:6-9

easier for reasoning men introduce LIE that GODS HOLY JUST PERFECT LAWS Rom 7:12, Psalm 19:7,17, are same as ancient Israels 613 ORDINANCES civil/ceremonial laws BY MEN used to OBEY that were blotted out Col 2:14
---Rhonda on 9/9/09


In reality we do not know who Lee is or what he truly believes. The rudness and mocking attitude he displays towards Christian brothers and sisters is not consistent with Christian love.

His attempts at mocking and ridicule do not bother me at all as in my evangelistic career I have been abused, ridiculed, and threatened by experts. Try evangelizing Islamic fundamentalists to see what an expert abuser is! Lee is a rank amateur.

Lee's cavalier and dismissive attitude towards God's word gives cause to believe he is an antiChristian plant.

Conversely some who blog here know me well.
---Warwick on 9/9/09


I often wondered if old Ellen had not gotten so bogged down in the Old Testament and got into the study of the New Testament, she would have discounted her visions and recognized that 'Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light' 2 Cor. 11:14, and that if 'an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed', the church of Christ would not have to content with her teachings today.
---Lee on 9/9/09


//You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between an angel visiting a prophet (the approved method of the Bible) and the visitation by a dead relative, as in your case.

Not in the least! If you had even done a study on cults (or the occult), you would see that it was an 'angel' that visited old Joseph Smith and gave him the golden plates that allegedly was the Book of Mormons. And was it not visits by an angel that gave inspiration for EGW?

Sorry Jerry, but EGW fits neatly into that same category. In simple terms what both she and Joe taught was simply another Jesus and a different gospel than what the saints of the church has taught over the centuries.
---Lee on 9/9/09


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The Seq, thank you for your answer. I also believe the genuine believer who is physically dead is alive spiritually. I believe I added that at the end of my answer. What I was suggesting the passage is saying is, that he was not preaching to the dead at the moment. That is not what the passage is indicating. If you read it again you will see, that he meant that those who are dead also heard the gospel, but when they were physically alive. Now they are dead and they are alive but to Christ. Not alive to us. If they were then the prayers that the RCC does to the dead saints would be true. Which is false doctrine. The physically dead do not hear the living.
---MarkV. on 9/9/09


Lee: You seem to have difficulty understanding the difference between an angel visiting a prophet (the approved method of the Bible) and the visitation by a dead relative, as in your case. Why do you wear wigs? Are you bald, or do you just like to "dress up?"

"What we need to know now is whether you feed your children 'butter, eggs, and meat'"

Now why would you ALL need to know that? I suspect that you eat the stuff, and it may indeed be a contributor to your mental problems. Why don't you try getting off it for awhile and see if things clear up for you?
---jerry6593 on 9/9/09


no. it's not the same. read Luke 16:27- 31. a person must be raised from the dead see Matth 27:52- 53, not return in "ghost" form.

the Biblical term of the soul is "mind, will, emotion". it is the "spirit" of man that is born again. John 3:6

it is the spirit and soul of man that continues on after physical death. see Luke 16:22, 2 Corinth. 5:8, Hebrews 12:23, revel.7:13- 17
---JaeR on 9/8/09


easily see why the poor man thinks the old covenant is obsolete and lying is now ok cuz all we gotta do is "love in name of a christ"
---Rhonda on 9/8/09

How many times do you have to be shown that the new covenant exists and has obsoleted the old?

You seem as stiff-necked as you say Lee is.

We have shown you Scripture after Scripture after Scripture where the new covenant is expressed in the old testament, where Jesus initiates it with the cup, and how the old covenant has been obsoleted by the new.

How can you continue to deny that this does not exist? What portion of the Bible would you like to redact to prove your beliefs?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/8/09


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Markv
Some time ago, I said. Some things are better left unsaid, this is one of them.
Maybe, you believe the dead are dead. I do not believe this. I believe the dead are alive.
It seem, you believe, they do not hear. I believe they hear very word.

Maybe, you believe in the here and now. See, I dont believe this.
Like I said, some things are better left unsaid!

And yes, my beliefs are from the bible and more. Maybe one day, but not today
Many people have call me a Christian because, I believe in the word of God, Jesus Christ! But, I really believe in God, so what does that make me?
I believe all things, are!
God bless you all
---TheSeg on 9/8/09


Ellen White did not have a brain injury, but I think you do. She had a nose injury. You need to brush up on your physiology, unless, of course, your brain is in your nose.
****

priceless and for everything else there is mastercard

Jerry thank you for letting us know the TRUTH ...I know Lee has an intense hatred of this women and from his slanderous posts I believe not once he ever mentioned nose injury ...amazing how one slips in a lie so cunning like brain injury

easily see why the poor man thinks the old covenant is obsolete and lying is now ok cuz all we gotta do is "love in name of a christ"
---Rhonda on 9/8/09


El Seq, You miss interpret the passage in 1 Peter 4:6, "to those who are dead" The preaching of the gospel not only offers a rich life (v. 3:10), a ceasing from sin, (v. 1) and good conscience (3:21), but also an escape from final judgment. Peter had in mind believers who had heard and accepted the gospel of Christ when they were still alive, but who had died by the time Peter wrote this letter. Some of them, perhaps, had been martyred for their faith. Though these were dead physically, they were triumphantly alive in their spirits (Heb. 12:23). All their judgment had been fully accomplished while they were alive in this world ("in the flesh") so they will live forever in God's presence.
---MarkV. on 9/8/09


Jerry //she said about a conference in the 1850's, "My angel told me that some here would be food for worms, some would be subject of the seven last plagues, and others would be alive to be raptured when Jesus returned."

It was quotes like this one offered by Cluny that we can easily see that EGW had her spirit guides.

Get smart and get out of that kind of thing while the Lord still tarries His return.
---lee on 9/8/09


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Jerry -**And no, I don't wear wigs.

So you admit you are in compliance with at least part of the "gospel truth" as revealed by E. White.

What we need to know now is whether you feed your children 'butter, eggs, and meat' as clearly those kinds of food excite the animal passions in children.

As to White's head injury, thro she got the rock in the snout, the injury is still to the head. In fact it is known as a frontal head injury.

Google Ellen White head injury and read the article by Dr Mollueruc Couperus, you will definitely be enlightened.
---lee on 9/8/09


1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Clearly someone talk to the dead.
---TheSeg on 9/8/09


Lee: "BTW, I have never spoken to anyone from the dead as you slanderously claim."

Wasn't it you who claimed the drug-induced meeting with your dead father, and the love you experienced there?

Ellen White did not have a brain injury, but I think you do. She had a nose injury. You need to brush up on your physiology, unless, of course, your brain is in your nose.

And no, I don't wear wigs. Do you? You seem awfully sensitive about it.
---jerry6593 on 9/8/09


//There nothing wrong with talking to the dead!

I think that you will find that the Bible strongly comdemns any communications with the dead. However, Roman Catholics do it all the time in praying to dead saints.

What Jerry fails to understand is the distinction between a vision and communicating with the dead. In fact, I would surmise by his posts he simply fears anything that supernatural, howbeit, one can only become a genuine Christian under the influence and filling of the Holy Spirit, a term we call being 'born again' or 'from above'.

Such is often the case with those who would rather earn their salvation by doing certain works, then simply acknowledging that our righteousness is imputed to us in Christ.
---lee on 9/7/09


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If mans MORTAL soul was "immortal" than eternal life IS worthless

self professing christianity subscribes to deception of immortal soul without support of scripture ...men of reasoning DISMISS John 3:15, 10:28, Rom 6:23

others claim salvation now ...which contradicts Mark 10:30 and others

to support lie of immortal soul religious christianity must dismiss BASIC scripture of death to support their fairy tale of life immediately AFTER death and this reasoning of men is antichrist to 1Corin 15, John 6:54
---Rhonda on 9/7/09


There nothing wrong with talking to the dead!


Its when they answer, people talk!
The dead are they dead or sleeping?
Im to believe they arent! I believe they live!
For he is not the God of the dead, but the living!

If my spirit, believe a thing, should I not listen?
I know you can see the lord. You may or may not understand its him.
Some believe he a man, other believe he a spirit.

Isnt God everything! Isnt he in everything you think, say and do!
See, for some its yes and no!

Some when they see or hear a thing, they dont understand, right away evil!
Why, is it always evil? Why is the door always closing?
Yet, it never closes!
---TheSeg on 9/7/09


Jerry -**Lee: Ellen White's visions were from God. She never spoke with "spirits of the dead" as you claim to, nor did she ever speak contrary to the Bible as you do constantly.

That is something that has been highly questioned even by some Adventists researchers. In the first place, Ellen often spoke of her 'spirit guide' and all too many medical researchers (at Loma Linda medical center) speculate that her visions were the result of her brain injury.

if you believe her visions were from God, then Jerry, you should not wear a wig nor should you feed your children butter, eggs or meat as such tends to act like an aphrodisiac.

BTW, I have never spoken to anyone from the dead as you slanderously claim.
---lee on 9/7/09


TheSeq - No problem with any of your comments as you seems to stick to the subject and do not engage in ad hominen arguments.

There is one person on this forum that continually slanders me and attempts to discredit me personally. But I suspect that reflects his denominational upbringing as they have problems recognizing others as Christians and believe themselves called of God to judge others that do not follow their silly religious scruples.

They seem to ignore much of what we read in the Word of God.

Ro 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
---lee on 9/7/09


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Lee: Ellen White's visions were from God. She never spoke with "spirits of the dead" as you claim to, nor did she ever speak contrary to the Bible as you do constantly. Get a grip Lee. Perhaps your spiritualistic encounter was drug-induced, as you've indicated, but that's no reason to accept it as valid.
---jerry6593 on 9/7/09


Lee, I was just wondering, because of what Donna66 wrote.
Do you believe I am calling you anything, other then what you believe?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

God Bless you
---TheSeg on 9/7/09


I am amazed that you all give lee such a hard time about about a "fleeting" experience
that lasted a "few seconds and then was gone". Lee didn't attribute any spiritual significance even wondering if it was caused by medication. IT does not sound like lee SOUGHT such an experience.

Now it had been labeled "satanic" or "necromancy". I would call it "normal".

I've heard something similar from any number of people who have lost a parent or a child, particularly.

I wouldn't know how to evaluate it "spiritually"
It is generally a reassuring experience which I wouldn't begrudge anybody
---Donna66 on 9/6/09


Does not the sun rise on both?
Does not the rain fall on both?

Dont say it because, its not raining!
Say, I didnt know, it is raining!

Did not he say, all sin will be forgiven?
Did not he say, even the sins against God. Against God!
Did not he say, I came for the sinner?
Did not john say, he shall, with the Holy Ghost?

Look "how much more"

Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Ye can discern the face of the sky, but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men

Why is the door always closing?
---TheSeg on 9/6/09


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TheSeq - while Jesus did say that in Matthew 7,11 - "if ye then being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your father in heaven give good things to them that ask of him?"

He also said much the same thing in Luke 11:13 -

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Giving the Holy Spirit to those who would ask that of Him, is certainly a good thing ,howbeit, the Holy Spirit is present at ones spiritual rebirth.
---lee on 9/6/09


It is also written!

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
---TheSeg on 9/6/09


//Have you really had a brain injury?

Not to my knowledge, however, if you study the Christian faith you would understand that there is a supernatural side to the Christian life.

Acts 2:17 And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams,...

So, if you take the scripture at face value, you would have to conclude that if such is not part of your experience, you simply have never experienced the Christ of the Bible in your life. You will end up facing Jesus and He will tell you, 'depart from me, I never knew you'. Mt. 7:23
---lee on 9/6/09


Lee: Have you really had a brain injury?
---jerry6593 on 9/6/09


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//You have engaged in the biblically forbidden practice of necromancy.

If you view any such vision or dream as being the forbidden practice of necromancy, you really need to acknowledge the same for olde Ellen White.

While modern medical views her visions as the product of her own mind caused by a brain injury as a child, many cult researchers view her visions as demonic since much of what she taught was contrary to the gospel as taught by the church since its conception.

As to the teachings that I support, everything I believe is from orthodox and biblical teachings, howbeit, Adventism is NOT as they had a need to canonize Ellen White's writings to support their unorthodox teachings.
---lee on 9/5/09


//No wonder so many of your posts convey such hatred for Jews and for your fellow Christians.

That new nature the Lord has implanted in me at my spiritual birth will not permit me to hate Jews or other Christians.

However, unlike what you would believe, I can see the decision of the Jerusalem council was that one need not become a Jew upon becoming a follower of Jesus Christ.

In fact, unlike the converted Pharisees and their successors today, Gentiles need not be circumcised and follow the law of Moses (Acts 15:5).

Sorry to see you lack understanding on these issues, however, the natural mind does not have that capacity. 1 Cor. 2:14.
---lee on 9/5/09


Lee: "I was awaken early one morning and saw my father who had died years ago. He was reaching out to me. What really amazed me is the look of totally happiness and glory on this face. The rest of his appearance was one of youth. The vision lasted only a few seconds and was gone."

Now that explains a lot! You have engaged in the biblically forbidden practice of necromancy. That being was not your dead father, but rather a demon. No wonder so many of your posts convey such hatred for Jews and for your fellow Christians. Perhaps you wouldn't need drugs for hypertension if you weren't so angry all the time.
---jerry6593 on 9/5/09


The immortality of the soul teaching does not come from the Bible which says we are a soul. Genesis 2

The Bible also says the souls that sin shall die. Yet many want here to change the topic. Since the Bible opposes the immortal soul doctrine they turn to ad hominum attacks against the person or group instead of trying to show what they believe from the Bible.

The Bible is the basis of truth. I fill follow JESUS who said the wages of sin is death. Not those who just attack me and my church since they have no bible proof.
---Samuel on 9/4/09


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Mark ... You are almost right when you say "I believe that every cult or false religion began with spiritual visions or spiritual dreams"

But it is not always the case. There is at least one exclusion.

Scientology was started by a science fiction writer, Ron Hubbard, who had the deliberate cold-blooded intention to start a religion.

I don't think he ever regarded it as true.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/3/09


MarkV - I can only agree with you that we need not trust visions as all too often they are the product of something in our bodily chemistry or even Satanic.

The Word of God should be the foundation for all of our doctrinal beliefs & practices in so far as it is permissible.

If we were to study those who had visions, say Ellen White, we would certainly find too much that is questionable when the light of Scripture is shined on them. And she was the one that suffered a brain injury at an early age.
---lee on 9/3/09


Lee, I believe that every cult or false religion began with spiritual visions or spiritual dreams. Islam began with the supernaturual visions and revelations Muhammad claimed to have had. Muhammah was not even sure whether they came from God or the Devil, but continued to receive them until he died. He experience Shamanism encounters. He first believe his revelations might be the result of his possession by a Jinn, an evil spirit.
Many people began with a good intent for God, but wind-up all messed up with their dreams and visions. It is very powerful the forces of evil. They will see the word of God clearly but will continue to reject it. God knew this would happen when He said, 'Light has come into the world, but man love darkness"
---MarkV. on 9/3/09


I was awaken early one morning and saw my father who had died years ago. He was reaching out to me. What really amazed me is the look of totally happiness and glory on this face. The rest of his appearance was one of youth. The vision lasted only a few seconds and was gone.

However, not having any kind of experience like this before, it is possible that some of the hypertension medicine that I take could have been a contributor.

And I certainly do not put much stock into these kinds of things as one could be like old Ellen White whose visions were merely the product of her own mind according to her doctors.
---lee on 9/1/09


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//What kind of religion is the SDA's?

As pointed out all too many times before, it is a religion of works reflecting the ministry of death & condemnation, not the ministry of the Spirit that is more glorious. Read 2 Cor. 3:7f.
---lee on 9/1/09


Jerry, why do you continue to deny the Spirit coming into the new believers? How can you be born of the Spirit person and not believe the Spirit comes into your heart? What kind of religion is the SDA's? I was assuming all of you were born of the Spirit.
Lets see, I believe it was God who said He would put His Spirit within you. Are you suggesting or implying that God was wrong somehow? Or maybe He just wanted to trick the people into believing something He was not going to do.
---MarkV. on 9/1/09


That's right Glenn. We have no reason to suspect that those in Heaven are aware of earthly events. Though it may be comforting, at times, to imagine it is so.
---Donna66 on 8/31/09


Christians believe that upon death, believers immediately go into God's presence, and unbelievers go to Hell *1. Job 14:21-22, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, demonstrates that the dead have no knowledge of earthly affairs. A brother, who is in Heaven, will be able to look on the Lord *2.
*1 Luke 16:22-31, 23:43, John 14:2-3, 23, 2Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23 / Numbers 16:30-33.
*2 Genesis 18, Exodus 24:10, 33:11, 20, 34:30 & 2Corinthians 3:7, Numbers 12:8, Deuteronomy 34:10, Isaiah 6:1, Matthew 5:8, 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-10, Luke 9:28-36, John 1:18, 14:9, Acts 9:3, 22:11, 1Corinthians 13:12, Colossians 1:15, 1Timothy 1:17, 6:16, Hebrews 11:27, 1John 3:2, 4:12, Revelations 22:4.
---Glenn on 8/31/09


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Glenn: Belief in spiritualism has at its foundation that people are, in essence, conscious, self-existent spirits trapped (temporarily) in human bodies. At death, these spirits are freed from their fleshy prisons, and, as ghosts, are free live apart from any physical constraint and to travel about the universe - even communicating with folks back home.

Many Christians believe these same fundamental concepts, except that most would shun the communicating part, while allowing for its possibility.

The Bible directly refutes such beliefs (e.g., Ecc 9:5, 1 Tim 6:16), but those who hold to them must think that the Bible has errors in it.
---jerry6593 on 8/27/09


Phil: You correctly stated at first that a soul [person] is composed of two parts - dust [body] and breath of life [life force]. Then you went on to contend, without explanation, that a third ingredient - an immortal spirit - somehow entered the picture. Where did it come from and when? What scripture supports the injection of an person-specific immortal spirit being injected into a soul, and its survival at the death of that soul?
---jerry6593 on 8/27/09


We are spiritual in death. If we are of God we will die one death (the natural death) on earth and your soul (in a new body) will spend eternity in heaven
****

Where in scripture does it say souls spend eternity in heaven and get a "new body" ...we will be spirit not a physical body 1Cor 15:50-51

I see where we INHERIT and REIGN with Christ on Earth Psalm 25:13,37:11, Matt 5:5 Micah 4:7, Rev 5:10, 11:15

Amen 1stCliff so true fire produces light but a place of hell simply unsupported by scripture seeing wicked do not receive eternal life

Rhonda/AZ
---Rhonda on 8/26/09


Rhonda, Have you ever been near a fire where there was "total darkness"???
If you haven't noticed fire produces light!
---1st_cliff on 8/26/09


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We are spiritual in death. If we are of God we will die one death (the natural death) on earth and your soul (in a new body) will spend eternity in heaven. If we are not of God then we die a second death which could be the lake of fire, always in total darkness etc... depending on your works here. Of course your earthly works alone do not get you to heaven. You must be born of the spirit.
---Rhonda on 8/26/09


Jerry, Why would anyone believe in immortality of the soul when soul(Nephesh-Heb,psyche-Gr) is mentioned over 800 times in the bible ad not once does it say immortal.deathless or never dieing!
Immortality of the soul is pagan,as they refused to accept death as final!
Spirit, on the other hand (ruach-Heb,pneuma-Gr.) simply means air, breath or a state of mind , Christmas Spirit, be in good spirits, a spirited horse,etc.
Angels are spirit beings!
---1st_cliff on 8/25/09


...In the sense that apple pie is the same as Al Qaeda.
Jerry6593 be honest, and speak what's on your mind, so that we can respond. 2Corinthians 1:12, 2:17, 3:13-18, 4:2, 2Timothy 2:15-16.
---Glenn on 8/25/09


Phil, I also agree with you post very much. The way you stated it even more. I am glad to hear what you had to say on this subject that Jerry keeps bringing up.
---MarkV. on 8/25/09


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Phil: "You are making the common linguistic mistake..."

You articulated this very well, and I agree completely with what you have said. Though commonly used interchangeably, 'spirit' and 'soul' are technically different terms, as you have indicated in your post.

As the author of Hebrew writes, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spiri..." (4:12).

With regards to the spirit surviving death, I also agree with your position, as this truth is supported by Scripture (Lu16:19-31, 23:43, 2Co5:1-10, 2Co12:1-4, Php1:21-24).
---Bobby3 on 8/24/09


No a belief in an immortal soul is not the same as Spiritualism. Spiritualism is based on a belief in an immortal soul but they are not the same thing. Spiritualism tries to talk to the dead. It looks to the dead for answers and often replaces a beleif in GOD with following the dead.
---Samuel on 8/24/09


Jerry, a lot of Christian concepts are like/similiar to certain pagan concepts. Do some research online. I am sure that some Christians will deny this, but it's true. Just look at the Christmas tree.

Some will say that the pagans copied them, but the pagans were around long before the Christians.
---amand6348 on 8/24/09


Ditto Bill_bila5659!

Jerry, there's a vast difference between devilish spiritualism & Holy Spirit led Christianity...

"After the resurrection of the dead when you get a new resurrection body you become a soul again..." Phil, 8/22

Really? When you "become a soul again" Phil, will the soul (mind, will & emotions) of your spirit man be the one you had before death or a different one having no knowledge of your prior life?

Regenerated man's "mortal" soul isn't destroyed at death. It's SAVED (Jn. 3:16) & is "immortal" in the resurrection. But, unregenerated man has a different destiny. (Matt. 10:28, 16:26 & Mk. 8:36)
---Leon on 8/23/09


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Upon death The soul is not immortal.We come to life for a temporal demonstration of personal will to choose a spiritual life.If spiritual life is not choosen then from the proverbal book of life where all names of living personalities are kept our name is subject to removal and ceasation of life becomes permanent.Only the living are of record in this book.The personality becomes extinct like a dinosaur."whosoever does not beliveth in him shall perish".I dismiss The spiritualism idea that a conscious man in hell can communicate a message to a conscious man on earth because our God thus permits the infection of sin to continue .
---earl on 8/23/09


You are making the common linguistic mistake of using the term Soul when you should use word Spirit.

Soul [H 1513] is from the Hebrew word neh-fesh, which simply means any living creature that can breath and is capable of locomotion. You don't have a soul, you ARE a soul, so is any animal. It is your physical body when it dies you and your soul are dead. It will eventually decompose to nothing. Your spirit survives you after death. After the resurrection of the dead when you get a new resurrection body you become a soul again because you are breathing and capable of locomotion The Soul is not immortal it is definitely finite it exist only when you are live.
---Phil_the_Elder on 8/22/09


"Spiritual" refers to the kind of person you really are (character/ethics of heart and mind) and your love for your heavenly heritage. God warns us to avoid "self abasement" (Colossians 2:18).

Once you truly/deeply love the creator (pay homage to Him), everything that YOU should be and do will fall into place (PERSONAL relationship is TWO WAY).

When you are true to yourself, then you can be true to The Lord and truly relate to and identify with "I am who I am" (Exodus 3:14).

OUR SPIRIT must be compatible with God's spirit (Ephesians 5:8).

Romans 8:16
"with our spirit that we are children of God".

Have a "faith for faith" (Romans 1:17).
---more_excellent_way on 8/22/09


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