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Grace Demands Greater Law

A leading theologian and author wrote me that grace demands more of us than did the law. Can we agree with this and why?

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 ---Lee on 8/24/09
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Rev 3:14, is not speaking to believers. "Therefore be zealous and repent" Jesus is asking them to repent, and was offering them genuine spiritual salvation, and when He knock on the door not a one answered. They could not hear Christ knocking. The church that bore His name and no believers. Jesus said, "he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches" not a one repent, because not a one could hear.
Any interpretation that these people were believers is wrong because God said He would vomit them out of His mouth.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10


//Also from the other thread, I just wanted to let everyone know that I am NOT any denomination. Arminianism, Calvinism, ...

Most of those who damn what Calvin truly believed fail to realize most of what he believed came from some of his predessors, namely Augustine & Anslem.

A detailed study on Calvin would reveal everything he believed in has a solid scripture basis, however, in some cases, even Calvin did not like some of the positions found in Scripture held.

Probably the most obvious is his belief in the soverignity of God, that God can do with whatever He desires with His creation.

We all too often tend to demand that God submit to our understanding of what we view as fair play.
---Lee1538 on 2/4/10


-MarkV. on 2/4/10

Not disagreeing with the whole post just parts.
1st- Kath does not do what Markv is claiming.
2nd- God is most certainly talking to believers in Rev. When he is speaking to the Laodicean Church.
We know that in these days there are churches that are like that.I believe it applies to church bodies and individual believers.

Also from the other thread, I just wanted to let everyone know that I am NOT any denomination. Arminianism, Calvinism, none of these. I believe in following the Word of God NOT traditions of belief set forth by man.
---miche3754 on 2/4/10


Kathr, again your questions are not for the glory of God but to find fault. Rev. 3:14-22, does not condemn or make Calvinism, Armininism, or Catholicism. What it does, it explains how Christ feels concerning the Laodicean Church. Both vv. 18 & 20 indicates that Christ was speaking here to unbelievers. God certainly loves the unconverted (John 3:16) And chasten (reprove) often refers to God's convicting and punishing the unregenerate (Matt. 18:17), 1 Cor. 14:24, 2 Tim. 2:25). "I stand at the door and knock" rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christ's knocking on a person's heart, the context demands that Christ was seeking to enter the Church that bore His name but lacked a single true believer.
---MarkV. on 2/4/10


Hi kathr, I keep checking this thread, looking for an apology. Not having seen it, I'll forgive you even if you don't deserve it. :) hmm...sounds like grace.
---Rod4Him on 2/3/10




AMEN Lee1538

What many fail to realize is Revelation 3 where Jesus rebukes the Laodicean Church. Those who THINK they are rich and have need of nothing, God sharply rebukes...your naked, poor and miserable in His sight!!

Now, let me ask MarkV, Is Jesus talking to saved or the lost here? Be careful how you answer, for either answer condemns Calvinism to the core.

Every Truly Born Again Christian KNOWS faith without works is dead. We're not talking about works of the law and James NEVER states, but OBEDIENCE of faith. If you actually say that your faith being tested does not bring TRIALS and suffering, your faith is DEAD..God tests ALL who belongs to Him.
---kathr4453 on 2/3/10


Rod4him, as you can see what I have been reading coming from her for a long time. There is no change. I was hoping the new year would be a great change with her thinking and her agenda would change, not to argue anymore but to help teach others all the topics of faith. But in the process of arguing, she finds new meaning for passages and topics for the sole purpose of coming against me or you.
All these talk about how we don't love Christ or that we are going against what He taught is all smoke screens. There is evil intend behind it. At least it is not coming from God.
---MarkV. on 2/2/10


kathr, I was disappointed in your last blog for serveral reasons. First, I expect better from you than you thinking you know where I get my statements suggesting I "obviouly read in books." When it comes to Biblical content, I read very few books. I should read more.
Second, you didn't explain yourself well. You said, "If they really LIVED under GRACE no such comment would be made." What are you talking about? I live under grace and grow in grace and live in grace. What do you live under?

Your greatest error is prejudging the situation. You see Mark acknowledge a comment I made, and because you always judge MarkV you prejudge me.

I expect better of you. Many of your posts I agree with. Be careful.
---Rod4Him on 2/2/10


Kathr4453 - Yes, I would agree that your comments are closer to the center of the bullseye. One can learn much of what you post.

//Actually Lee, Joel Osteen might not!!

As those who would preach a "feel good" gospel message, devoid of any sacrifice or suffering for righteousness sake on the part of enlighten believers.

However his promotional philosophy can be useful as he emphasizes a lifestyle that can be constructive similar to what we used to hear from Dr. Robert H. Schuller and the Hour of Power.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


Grace is sufficient for every demand of life.

We are saved by grace (Eph. 2:8) and we serve by grace (1 Cor. 15:9f).

Grace enables us to endure suffering (2 Cor. 12:9), it is grace that strengthens us (2 Tim. 2:1) so we can be victorious.

Our god is a god of all grace (1 Pe. 5:10) and we can come to the throne of grace & find grace to help in every need (Hebr. 4:16).

As we read the Bible it is the word of his grace (acts 20:32), the Spirit of grace (Hebr. 10:29) reveals to us how rich we really are in Christ.

enough said!!!
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10




MarkV //Grace demands nothing in return.

I think that most ministers you find in churches nowadays would immediately crawl down your throat if you made such a statement. Lee1538

Actually Lee, Joel Osteen might not!! The problem I see with MarkV and Rod's statement is that they give only what they have obviously read in books. IF they really LIVED under GRACE no such comment would be made. We are to GROW in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ for one thing that bring growing pains !!

We're TESTED with what we learn, as James lets us know, to bring us to perfection/or Maturity. THAT takes OBEDIENCE of faith.

God absolutely required something of Abraham...
---kathr4453 on 2/2/10


You ought to put that all together "THAT NOT OF YOURSELF" yeah the "WHOLE" truth

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
---steven-rem7000 on 2/2/10


Nana -//Disagreement again!

So you disagree with what Php. 2:14 states -

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure".

If you are a person born of His Spirit, you would be able to look back and see what you used to be.

However, there are 'believers' who really have never experienced Christ in their lives. While they scream at others that one must love the Lord with all their hearts and minds, they really have never experienced His love in their lives, so really cannot love God in return.

Sorry but the Christain faith is not just another ethical philosophy, it is a relationship with the living Lord.

Perhaps you really need to find out what it is all about.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


Grace is harder then the law


It's harder to forgive, than to judge
It's harder to love, than to hate
It's harder to include, than to exclude
It's harder to engage, than to ignore
It's harder to share, than to hold
It's harder to accept, than to reject
It's harder to welcome, than to walk away
It's harder to turn the other cheek than an eye for an eye
It's harder to hold your tongue then to humble yourself and say nothing.
It's harder to give someone something you think you deserve more.

It's HARDER to walk by FAITH than to walk by SIGHT.

It's harder to TRUST the unknowing tomorrow, then to make your own plans for tomorrow.

Shall I go on?
---kathr4453 on 2/2/10


"There's something unsettling about the statement that grace demands more of us than did the law."-rod4him

I have been pondering on this and the only thing I can come up with is this- Grace asks more of our flesh, which isn't pleasing to God anyway. It asks the ultimate sacrifice, DEATH. Our flesh must die so that Christ Spirit can live in us and we CAN walk after his spirit and do God's will. If the flesh is put to death, then it shouldn't rise back up. Paul does tell us to die to self daily.
Trust me, it's hard, at first. I finally quite smoking for God and my flesh doesn't like it one bit. But the Spirit of God in me loves it and has grown stronger since I sowing to it instead of my flesh.
---miche3754 on 2/2/10


MarkV //Grace demands nothing in return.

I think that most ministers you find in churches nowadays would immediately crawl down your throat if you made such a statement.

What does grace demand of us but far more than the law?

It demands that we take up our cross and follow Him and where that will lead to, could very well not be to our liking.

Mt 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me

It also demands that we love Christ more than parents and friends, many of whom do not obey or know the Lord.

Mt 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
---Lee1538 on 2/2/10


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Rod4him, that was the problem I had when the statement was made. It is not a burden to the lost since he is already heading for hell and is spiritually dead. In fact he gains his life first, then everything that is of God.
Then the use of the words, cheap Grace. I find nothing cheap about God's Grace. As if He gives rich Grace and cheap Grace. And maybe someone got cheap Grace. Such nonesense on the topic of Grace. Everyday new definitions that totally confuse the Scriptures. I believe Lee also caught on to what I was arguing against which you brought up.
---MarkV. on 2/2/10


But that essentially destroys the concept that the righteous must live by faith in the power of God's Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10

Lee, I totally agree. And MarkV's concept of Grace destroys the Power of the Word of the Gospel we are to preach to all sinners.

You are saved by GRACE (the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) through faith...... IT IS a gift from God.

Let's be sure the emphasis if IT IS is on salvation. Jesus Christ is the GIFT, Salvation is the GIFT. The GIFT of Jesus Christ who graciously went to the CROSS to die and shed his blood for the sin of the whole world! Why is it a GIFT, because no man can shed his own spotted and stained blood to die for his own sin!!!
---kathr4453 on 2/2/10


"And that is basically what Php. 2:13 states.
As it is God that changes our desires and directs our lives and that for His good pleasure."
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10

Disagreement again!

Matthew 22:37: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
Matthew 22:39: 'And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
Leviticus 20:7: "Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God." Also 1 Peter 1:15_16.

As "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above", man must cherish and honor such, wherefore Paul adds Php 2:14_16. Man is quite capable...
---Nana on 2/1/10


Kathr, you said "perhaps the SDA's are looking at the law from a different angel, I know you meant angle"
But haven't you wonder that maybe it is you who is looking at the hold of Scripture in a different angle? Perhaps it is you who wants so much to argue any point that you have your own angle? That maybe everyday you wake up to check what it is that I have written and try to find holes in what I say. That seems to be your case, but in the process you call God' Grace cheap Grace. When has anything that is given free, ever been cheap? You do not study the definitions of topics and make your own definition by looking for passages that might help you, as the RCC did every time they invented a new doctrine.
---MarkV. on 2/1/10


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There's something unsettling about the statement that grace demands more of us than did the law.

Jesus said that His burden is light, and come unto Me all who are weary and heavy laden.

I can kind of understand what the author may want to say, but at the same time the life in Christ is a freeing experience. If one has a greater burden/demand than the law on their back, I would question what salvation they have. It sounds like the author in question is trying to load people up with his imposed rules: giving, assembly, devotions, scripture readings, prayer times, etc. All which are good, but I do them because I want to, not because I have to.

I am free to love God, and free to love one another.
---Rod4Him on 2/1/10


kathr4453 - Perhaps MarkV is looking at grace from a different angle.

Perhaps a better wording should have been that MarkV is looking at different aspects of grace.

The subject is more detailed and complex than you would realize.

A good book I finished reading on the subject is Grace the Glorious Theme by Lewis Sperry Chafer. I had 2 copies and mailed one to my SDA sister-in-law hoping that she would be able to acquire some understanding of the essential difference between grace and law.

Suggest if you can afford it, pick up a copy used from Amazon.

As some would abuse grace, 'Be ye holy as I am holy' (1 Pe. 1:15-16)really does not allow for just any type of behavior or lifestyle.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


kathr4453//Perhaps the SDA are only looking at the LAW from a different angel!

The SDA (and other Sabbaterians) view grace as something that will enable them to observe all the law.

But that essentially destroys the concept that the righteous must live by faith in the power of God's Spirit.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


kathr4453 - Perhaps MarkV is looking at grace from a different angle. Lee**

Lee, perhaps this is so. However there is only one definition of GRACE....Grace is the GIFT of ETERNAL LIFE, that came to us through Jesus death and resurrection life, not the Gift of having your name picked out of a hat so you can sit around the rest of your life BRAGGING that you got your name picked out of a hat.

Perhaps the RCC, or Mormons etc, look at GRACE from a different angel too. How many angles are there?

Perhaps the SDA are only looking at the LAW from a different angel!
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10


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kathr4453 //Lee, the law could not be kept by anyone and saved no one.

Totally agree, BUT does one that is saved obey or observe the law? There are over 600 of them in the OT alone.

Consider your answer in view of Romans 3:31

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


[It is unthinkable a Christian would set aside the grace of God or denounce the death of Christ as useless. Yet this sin is as common today among religious people as it used to be among the Jews and some professing Christians in the apostolic era.

They do not reject grace by living in gross immorality, but paradoxically, by their misguided zeal for the Law of God. To be sure, grace is despised by someone claiming to believe in Christ, who turns Christian freedom into libertinism. But it is equally damning to attempt to become right with God by personal efforts and works.

I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing (Gal 2:21)]

from Gospel E-Letter, Feb.2010
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


kathr4453 - Perhaps MarkV is looking at grace from a different angle.

Grace offered to us in Christ, certainly involves surrendering of ourselves and all that we are to Him. And that may be very costly.

Lu 9:62 Jesus said to him, No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.

If I am wealthy, I may be called to give up my wealth to benefit others, while I may value the friendship of others as well as acceptance in the eyes of my parents, I may have to give them up and follow Him.

Mt 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

The Cross we are asked to carry may be heavy.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


Lee, the law could not be kept by anyone and saved no one. Grace demands nothing in return. Grace accomplishes everything for us at no price to us.MarkV,


I guess MarkV never read John 6. What was the price the group of disciples refused? ANSWER: To eat His flesh and drink His blood. They said THIS IS TOO HARD!!!

The first group only wanted to TAKE TAKE TAKE, but Jesus said Hold on a minute.

Jesus NEVER mislead anyone into a cheap grace salvation. What was the promise to those who eat his flesh and drink his blood....ETERNAL LIFE!!!

All the others who refused he compared to JUDAS!!!!

ONLY the unholy spirit would mislead anyone into cheap grace!
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10


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Lee #2. Peter was guilty of sin by aligning himself with men he knew to be in error and because of the harm and confusion he caused his Gentile brethren. Peter knowing the decision of the Jerusalem Council had made (Acts 15:7-29), had been in Anticoch for some time, eating with Gentiles. When the Judaizers came to him pretenting they came from James, Peter joined them. He began to eat with the Judaizers, meaning that Peter was affirming the very dietary restrictions he knew God had abolished (Acts 10:15). He later tells the Galatians,"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?"
---MarkV. on 2/1/10


Lee, the law could not be kept by anyone and saved no one. Grace demands nothing in return. Grace accomplishes everything for us at no price to us. God changes our hearts and our desposition. Even our actions are led by Christ who lives in us through the Spirit.
Gal. 2:11 is a good place to start. In fact the passages are speaking of one of the darkess hours for the gospel of Christ. Paul was angry at Peter. Peter had withdrawn from the Gentiles believers to fellowship with the Judaizers who held a position he knew was wrong, Peter had in appearance supported their doctrine and nulified Paul's divine teaching, especially the doctrine of salvation by Grace alone through faith alone. Gal. 2:11 Paul spoke to Peter in front of the Judaizers
---MarkV. on 2/1/10


Those who use teh term not found in scripture unmerited favor are actually talking about not only cheap grace, but is actually not grace at all.

The New Birth is the moment we become Begotten sons through Jesus Christ. We have been BIRTHED from above and sealed forever more. To say the sealing is different is to say one can be Born Again, yet not yet sealed.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE!!! What is the PROMISE??? The promise is the New Birth silly!!!

John 1 says, to as many as receive Him to them gave he the power to become the SONS OF GOD!

You must RECEIVE Christ to be Born Again AKA Begotten Sons also AKA the New Birth.



---kathr4453 on 2/1/10


The greater LAW is the Life of Christ IN YOU. Christ being formed in you. Paul says to the Galatains who left Grace ( Galatains 3) and went back under the Law of Moses.) Why do so many go back???because there is NO SUFFERING in the Law of Moses. Gal 3 Paul asks, Have ye SUFFERED so much in vain? YES to be comformed to His Image is being CONFORMED TO HIS DEATH. Phil 3 " Being made conformable to HIS DEATH SO THAT You see Life comes out of DEATH.

1st Peter 4 tell us the same....we are SET FREE from the bonds that hold us to this world THROUGH SUFFERING.

PAul said I am cricified to the world and the world to me.... Being set FREE that leads to Liberty IN CHRIST is a painful process.
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10


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Nana //Most certainly, "Neither of which we are capable of producing within ourselves." is an empty preposition, and surely not validated by Php. 2:13.

I believe either you have misread my post, or simply do not understand that we cannot make ourselves righteous or holy neither can we express that love God has for others within ourselves.

And that is basically what Php. 2:13 states.
As it is God that changes our desires and directs our lives and that for His good pleasure.
---Lee1538 on 2/1/10


Cheap grace means grace as a doctrine, a principle, a system. An intellectual assent to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins.... In such a Church the world finds a cheap covering for its sins,less any real desire to be delivered from sin.

Cheap grace is a denial of the Incarnation of the Word of God grafted into the believer. 45-46



Cheap grace means the justification of sin without the justification of the sinner. Grace alone does everything they say, and so everything can remain as it was before.

Cheap grace is the grace one bestows on themselves
---kathr4453 on 2/1/10


Paul, the answer is no, we have not forgotten what Jesus commandments were, we have told you that already but you want us to go to the Old Covenant and do the works of the law given to the Jews. That is your apostasy.
Jesus commandments are given clearly so that anyone who is a true believer can believe,
"For you brethren, have been called to liberty, only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fufilled in one word, even in this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
---MarkV. on 2/1/10


Paul9594 - While true the immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God, Christians are in Christ and not viewed as such as they possess the righteousness that is in Christ - 1 Cor. 1:30.

And if you read the follow-on to the verses you quoted you would see that.

1 Cor 6:11f And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be enslaved by anything.

Your view basically states we are not not saved by the grace of God in Christ, but thru our own works. Eph. 2:8-10
---Lee1538 on 1/31/10


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Who are those that do NOT inherit salvation and it's promises?


1Cr 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

How do some say Paul taught against the keeping the Law?

Here Paul is saying:

Those who trangress the Law/teachings and instructions of The Father, some in the form of commandments, will not Inherit the kingdom of God.
---Paul9594 on 1/31/10


Enough theology, we need:

Christology:

Teachings of Christ's words:

John 8:36 If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins, and in him is no sin.
What is the fullness of the Fathers Grace?

To forgive your sins >> AND << empower you with the Holy Spirit to walk in the teachings/instructions of righteousness.

Have you received only half of the Fathers grace for you because of the teachings of the apostasy?
Do you believe in His power to help you walk after his commandments and be united to His righteousness?
---Paul9594 on 1/31/10


Grace is unmerited and free. Romans 3: By the works of the law no flesh can be justified in His sight...for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But where grace is, there will be fruits: If Ye love me, keep my commandments.Faith, without works, is dead.
Show me thy faith by thy works etc. When the Saviour spoke to the rich man who asked what he could do to inherit eternal life, he was dealt with as an individual where it hurt, told to sell all his possessions, give the money to the poor and follow Christ...he left, sorrowfully, because he wasn't willing to give up what Christ demanded of him, personally. Grace is free, but the gifter will make demands
on the individual Christian in individual ways.
---Lil on 1/31/10


"Frankly, the main attribute of God is holiness and love. Neither of which we are capable of producing within ourselves.

Scripture simply tells us that 'it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure'.Php. 2:13"

Lee1538 on 1/31/10

Most certainly, "Neither of which we are capable of producing within ourselves." is an empty preposition, and surely not validated by Php. 2:13.
---Nana on 1/31/10


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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

~ Matt.11:29-30 ~

Brethren, I don't view God's Grace as demanding, and I question the resolve of those who do, b/c every man gives/does according as is purposed in his Heart.

It's by the Gift of God's Grace that a Saved Hearts is dead to the iniquities of sin b/c God's Grace rejoice not in iniquity but in the Truth, and God is able to make all Grace abound toward the Hearts of those who have ears to Hear His Truthful Word : that we, having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every Good Work, giving not grudgingly or of necessity but cheerfully b/c God Loves a cheerful giver .... and there is no need to make demands on a cheerful giver !!
---Shawn.M.T. on 1/31/10


//Don't have to adhere "to OT laws" (i.e., the Ten Commandments). Not much of a blank check then, if we refuse to do the things He COMMANDED!

Yes, and we need not get our male children circumcised either.

Frankly, the main attribute of God is holiness and love. Neither of which we are capable of producing within ourselves.

Scripture simply tells us that 'it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure'.Php. 2:13

And nowhere either in Scripture or in the teachings of the early church do we have any conviction of sin for not observing the Jewish Sabbath. Sad, isn't it?
---Lee1538 on 1/31/10


Lee: "Grace demands we give the Lord a blank check to our lives."

Good Point!

Don't have to adhere "to OT laws" (i.e., the Ten Commandments.

Not much of a blank check then, if we refuse to do the things He COMMANDED!
---jerry6593 on 1/31/10


Grace demands we give the Lord a blank check to our lives. And that may even led us into a calling that involves suffering and grave sacrifices for the benefit of others, even martyrdom.

Regretfully, all too many pastors use this concept to justify adherence to OT laws that are strictly Jewish such as tithing, observance of days or other non-moral laws, things that benefit only themselves.
---Lee1538 on 1/30/10


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Amen Kath!
He who loses his life will gain LIFE!

Matthew 10:39
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it

Jesus says this many times.
Those who think they should not give up their life, are going to very sad on judgement day when they go to Jesus and say "Lord Lord" and he says "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you".

Those who KNOW Christ know they must die to self and LIVE through Christ.
---miche3754 on 1/29/10


Luke 14:27-29
27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,


MarkV seems to be mocking Christ on just about every blog here!

The disciples were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch.
---kathr4453 on 1/29/10


The GRACE(free Gift) that Jesus brought to us COST HIM EVERYTHING. He Left Glory, humbled himself, became obedient unto death, was crucified upon a cross! We are told Romans 6-8 that WE Identify with Christ in death and resurrection life! Do you not understand this truth? Phil 3?


John 12:25
He that loveth his life shall lose it, and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

That my friend MarkV is what JESUS means...not some theologian!

What will it cost you....YOUR OLD ADAM NATURE/CRUCIFIED with Christ
You will lose all those thing attached to this world...your PRIDE..

But it may be MarkV, you really have refused to lose anything. That's why you don't understand!
---kathr4453 on 1/29/10


I have no idea what great leading (at that) theologian would say that Grace causes you everything. What could it cause you since grace is given when a person is heading to hell already? Is there another hell he might go to? What can he lose, when he had nothing to give? That is the most rediculous thing anyone has said about Grace. What could that "everything" be? And you have others saying Amen to that rediculous comments about Grace. Lets see, the lost sinner
1 was dead to God
2, he was heading to hell
3. he didn't deserve grace
4. he was a child of the devil
5. he was dead in sin
In fact he gaines everything he didn't deserve.
---MarkV. on 1/29/10


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No! I do not agree. Grace is opposite of the law. The law condemns, grace is forgiveness. If Grace demands more of us how then can we say that Grace came by the Lord Jesus Christ. The essence of this statement seems to the be that Christ increased the burden of the law.
---mima on 1/29/10


Only a foolish person would refuse to pay out that which he cannot keep(his own unselfish ways) for something which he cannot lose(his salvation)!
---mima on 1/29/10


I have no idea what great leading (at that) theologian would say that Grace causes you everything. What could it cause you since grace is given when a person is heading to hell already? Is there another hell he has might go to? What can he lose, when he had nothing? That is the most rediculou thing anyone has said about Grace. What could that "everything" be?
1 he was dead to God
2, he was heading to hell
3. he didn't deserve grace
4. he was a child of wrath
5. he was dead in sin
In fact he gained everything he didn't deserve.
And get this, they get an Amen from others. Such nonesense.
---MarkV. on 1/29/10


Grace is a FREE Gift but it will cost you everything. It does require more..it requires total surrender.

We must remember three important facts:

Salvation is only the beginning.

Salvation is what God does FOR YOU!
Sanctification is what God does IN YOU.
Service is what God does THROUGH YOU!
---kathr4453 on 1/27/10


Amen, Kath!!!!
God working on the inside brings about change on the outside!
---miche3754 on 1/29/10


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Matthew 18:23_35 does not declare that grace is unmerited, rather grace for grace is required.
John 5:14: "Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." How revealing this verse! Is it not clear that the grace that man received came with conditions for it to be kept?
John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 8:29: "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone, for I do always those things that please him." Can we be in the Father's grace if he is not with us?
---Nana on 1/28/10


The nature and definition of Grace excludes all human effort. Man cannot do or be required to do anything to receive or to experience the benefits of Grace. If man is required to do anything to obtain Grace, then Grace ceases to be Grace.

If a man was rescued from a certain, excruciating death by someone who does not regard his past, his present or his future acts, what would the man's attitude be towards the person who rescued him? It would not be that, at the first opportiunity, the man returns to the lethal circumstances. Rather, the attitude would be one of awe, gratitude, loyalty, and even love.

The recognition and acceptance of the Grace of God is necessarily transforming.
---Janze on 1/28/10


A leading theologian and author wrote me that grace demands more of us than did the law. Can we agree with this and why?


Grace is a FREE Gift but it will cost you everything. It does require more..it requires total surrender.

We must remember three important facts:

Salvation is only the beginning.

Salvation is what God does FOR YOU!
Sanctification is what God does IN YOU.
Service is what God does THROUGH YOU!
---kathr4453 on 1/27/10


People who live in Disgrace make their own rules as they go along. Certain things are not optional, nor free for private interpretation:
Matthew 28:19-20: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Also, Luke 17:1-10.
---Nana on 9/30/09


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Because the gift of salvation is a FREE gift that was given "graciously", NOT imperialistically, NOTHING is expected in return (do not mistrust Jesus's love).

We should simply REST and relax in The Lord...do NOTHING in an attempt to repay God (as though it were possible).

OUR DESIRE to be helpful to someone should remain a "DESIRE"/wish/sentiment of our own and not be done because we think that it is an OBLIGATION/requirement (in these economic hard times, if we wish to keep all of our money for the health of our families and fulfill our God given parental responsibilities, we should do so).

We must REST INside of our sabbath...

JESUS is lord of the modern sabbath (there is no more sabbath DAY).
---more_excellent_way on 9/24/09


People who don't understand Grace are compelled to refer to the LAW in all things.

It is only human. Life really is EASIER when we have all the do's and don'ts. There is security in the law. It gives us a basis to judge others and ourselves as well.

Living by Grace causes us to walk in the Spirit. We have to dwell in the Word and and listen to His voice. There are no "rules" for some situations. It can be uncertain at times.

I JN 1:6-7 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

.
---Donna66 on 9/24/09


more_excellent_way,
You are on a good roll these days, keep it up!
---Nana on 9/23/09


Grace requires that we...


........STAND DOWN (forsake our pride/ego).

Jesus did "the works of God" (John 6:28 and 9:3) and our responsibility is to TRUST that His works are completely sufficient and that salvation was given FREELY (is a GRACIOUSLY GIVEN gift).

When/if we decide to give help or assistance to someone, we must not be giving our assistance GRUDGINGLY, we should be giving WILLFULLY/cheerfully (that "giving" will be of "OUR spirit"/wishes/desire, not from any "obedience"/law/rules).

We can make no effort that is "Godworthy", but we can have QUALITIES that are Godworthy (the fruit of light, Ephesians 5:8).
---more_excellent_way on 9/22/09


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"So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat OR drink, OR for not celebrating certain holy days, OR new moon ceremonies OR Sabbaths. For these rules were only a shadow of the real thing, Christ Himself." Col 2:16-17 New Living Bible.

The agrument here is whether 'Sabbaths' refer to the ceremonial Sabbaths or the weekly Sabbaths. I believe they refer to both. As Christ became our rest instead of a day of the week.
---lee on 8/28/09


dconklin -- >Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

I don't see that "in respect of" has any special function in the meaning of the passage. More important is the word OR.

"..OR in drink, OR in respect of a holy day, OR of the new moon, OR of the sabbath days." These phrases, all linked by the word OR, tell us the things listed are all in the same catagory. The repetition of the word OR emphasizes that!.
"In respect of" is merely a prepositional phrase modifying "holy day", "new moon" or "sabboth" day.
---Donna66 on 8/27/09


True,the ot only required ,in it's beginnings,that one do not this or that.Today loving kindness is what we do .It is mentally and physically demanding on the person to do this 24/7.
Much is given thus much is required.Likewise with the ones with the talents given by their master.The master now expects his investments to grow.
---earl on 8/27/09


>thro we judge not those who observe new moons, festivals & the Sabbath,(Col. 2:16)

That verse doesn't say that. The verse is talking about ascetic Jews who were judging the believers about their eating and drinking on those days. The most ignored words in the passage are "in respect of" (GK: en merei, which literally means "in that part of").

I spent almost 3 years studying Col. 2:16-17. This can be found online by searching for "Significant Words and Grammatical Structure of Colossians 2:16-17."
---dconklin on 8/27/09


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dconklin - thro we judge not those who observe new moons, festivals & the Sabbath,(Col. 2:16) does the OT really demand them of us?

Apparently those that pitch tithing, will say that nowhere in the New Testament (New Covenant) do we see any negation of these ordinances or practices, and therefore they maintain that we should still obey them.

I pointed out to one prominent theologian who writes lots of books, that if you believe selected OT laws are still mandatory,then we truly need a pope or some kind of infallible religious leader to guide us.

Of course, saying things were not negated by the New Covenant, is making an argument from silence.
---lee on 8/27/09


>Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

The three most misubderstood words in that verse are "in respect of." The ascetics were judging the believers for their eating and drinking _on_ the days that are then mentioned. It would be like someone judging you for eating a large meal at Sunday lunch. The issue then wouldn't be Sunday, but the lunch.
---dconklin on 8/26/09


"But then Paul goes on to tell us"
A great book could be written along that line. If it were not that he did, we would have a very dimished Gospel and Doctrine based at best on some five precepts only. "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:"

"So to avoid discipline we need to know what is expected of us. It is good we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us, but we need to listen to His voice."
lee, Amen to that!
---Nana on 8/25/09


In a sense this is true. Grace gives us tremendous freedom.
The law says, DO this! DON'T do that! The pharisees were models of this kind of religion. Life is easy when there are rules for everything and they are all spelled out for you.

The old ordinances, which were a yoke to the Jews, and a partition-wall to the Gentiles were nailed to the cross by the Savior.
Therefore Paul (a pharisee turned Christian)
said
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:16

The new rule, of our new life, is "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him".(Col 2:6) Great liberty... but great responsibility.
---Donna66 on 8/25/09


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Grace "demands" nothing! It deserves EVERYTHING! God gave the law to show our need of a Saviour, then, at His appointed time, He brought forth His only begotten Son, to provide the payment of grace for us who could in no way make the payment ourselves. Praise God!
---tommy3007 on 8/25/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

It by the Grace of God that the Righteousness of the Law is Fulfilled in His Children through the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, freeing us from the law of sin & death.

As more is revealed & given unto us, more shall be required. (Luke 12:48)

Now, Instead of making animal sacrifices, to save our lives which only later led to us losing it because we could not fulfill the righteousness of the law : We (and not animal) are killed all the day long and accounted as sheep for the slaughter. While losing our lives for Christ sake, we find it : through His Fulfillment of the Righteousness of the Law.
---Shawn.M.T. on 8/25/09


Does grace demand more of the believer than it did under the law?

Romans 6:14 tells us we are not under the law but under grace.

For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

But then Paul goes on to tell us we are not to continue in sin. (6:15)

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

But since sin can be viewed as a transgression of the law (Torah) then effectively we must be responsive to the law even if we are under grace.

The Author I referred to pitched the law of OT tithing, claiming that Christians are still under that law as it has never been negated in the NT. But I guess they have to protect their financial turf.
---lee on 8/25/09


//Galatians 3:24 states, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto The Messiah, that we might be justified by faith."

And the following verse 25 states "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

And that is because by faith we became children of God."For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

And as children of God, we come under His loving and caring discipline.

Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,and chastises every son whom he receives.

So to avoid discipline we need to know what is expected of us. It is good we have the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us, but we need to listen to His voice.
---lee on 8/25/09


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Grace demands that we forgive 70 times 7 times.
---alan8566_of_uk on 8/25/09


#1 It is the grace of Yahuah that brings to man the Law and its curse. Yahuah's holiness would seem to demand that He purge the earth of sinful man. Man has turned his back on Yahuah from the time of Eden and deserves to be snuffed out and without so much as an explanation. However, Yahuah showed favor (grace) to man and gave to him His holy Law so that man would understand wherein he has offended his Creator. Galatians 3:24 states, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto The Messiah, that we might be justified by faith." Therefore it is blatantly obvious that it was the grace of Yahuah that delivered to man His Law with its curse to bring man to his knees in search of mercy
---wayne on 8/25/09


#3
From what do we gain freedom? Romans 6:18 states, "Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." Ephesians 2:1-10 describes how the believer WAS dead in trespasses and sins. But now he is "made alive" and "unto good works." When he was "dead" he was in sin / transgression of the Law. But once he is made alive unto good works, he is no longer in sin. If sin is transgression of the Law, then "good works" would be obedience to the Law.
---wayne on 8/25/09


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