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Saved Without Holy Spirit

How can someone be saved during the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit (the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7) has been removed from the earth? Isn't the Holy Spirit needed to be born again?

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 ---kendall on 9/3/09
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I agree with---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/09
---mima on 9/18/09


Mark E,
you said there is too much scripture, well email me here on the site and give me the scripture that way. I would like to see for myself.
"Study and shew thyself approved".
Thanks and God bless
---miche3754 on 9/17/09


How much greater tribulation do you think the world can stand? Why stand ye here gazing up believing fables that men have made up about the word of God. They have brainwashed you into believing ideas that are not even supported by scripture. What will happen to you if you die right now. Will you be saved are will you go to hell because you eating and drinking and beating your servants not watching for the day you take you last breath
Jesus will come for you when you think not and if you are in agreement with lies and following doctrines of devils, causing others to believe lies, You will be judged with unbelievers.
---exzucuh on 9/17/09


Romans 11:16-26 says that if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches. The lump is the root and the branches together which are Israel. When christians are grafted into the branches, then the christians are part of the root and the branches (the lump) and will partake the rewards promised by God to Abraham.
---Steveng on 9/16/09


Miche:

It would require too many Scriptures to list.

It is an overall thematic hypothesis on my part.

In the OT, God wanted all to come to Him through Israel. They never evangelized. Gentiles had to come to them. Israel was the center of attention.

In the NT, God sent our from Israel to the Gentiles and sent a hardening to Israel. The church is the center of attention and evangelizing the world.

In the Revelation, the 144000 witness are ALL Jewish, to evangelize the Jews. The church has been raptured. Israel is again the center of attention.

2 Thes 2 tells us a strong delusion will deceive all who did not accept Christ. This is currently the Gentiles.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/16/09




I believe in the Tribulation that God will reverse the grafting, and will graft out the Gentiles while grafting in the Jews.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/09

Okay, I will bite. Can you givd me scripture to say why you think this?
You really think that God will "cut out"-ungraft gentiles and "cut back in"- re graft jews?

This idea goes against what Paul says about there being no more jew or gentile in Christ.
So, how can a gentile be ungrafted when in Christ they aren't a gentile anymore?
---miche3754 on 9/16/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

The seal of the Holy Spirit is needed to be born again and everyone who shall be saved is given the seal of the Living God before the earth shall be hurt by the tribulation of the four angels. Rev.7:2-4
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/15/09


I believe few Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation but many Jews will be.

Romans 11 teaches us that Gentiles are being grafted into the old olive tree of Abraham's seed. It also teaches us that the Jews are hardened against the gospel for this to be accomplished.

2 Thes 2 teaches us that the ones who did not receive the truth of God and be saved will receive strong delusion from the lawless one and will be deceived.

I believe in the Tribulation that God will reverse the grafting, and will graft out the Gentiles while grafting in the Jews.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/09


Steveng,
I follow what Jesus says.
Jesus says this-
Mark 12:29-31
And Jesus answered him, The 1st of all the commandments is...And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
And the 2nd is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Rom 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law
Eph 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


By the Way Steveng,
You are very funny!
You know the bible says no man comes to the Father EXCEPT through Christ.
NO MAN! That includes fleshly Israel.
Again, we are not identified to God through flesh ANY MORE! We are only identified by the Holy Spirit of Christ sent by God.
Do you believe fleshly Israel will get in by obedience to ALL the Law without CHRIST? NOT SO!
Only one man obeyed ALL of the law and that Man was Christ, son of God. Our passover lamb of sacrifice that ended the need for any other because he is perfect!
---miche3754 on 9/15/09




miche3754: "All of those things are true to a certain point."

How much of the ten commandments do you believe "up to a certain point?"

How much of your denominational "church" do you believe "up to a certain point?"

How much of the gifts of the Spirit do you believe "up to a certain point?"

How much of the bible do you believe "up to a certain point?"

How much of obedience do you believe "up to a certain point?"

How much of true service do you believe "up to a certain point?"
---Steveng on 9/14/09


Kath the Gap Theory proposes a gap in Genesis 1:1 when the earth was destroyed. Promoters of this idea believe the fossil record fits in here. The fossil record shows death, disease, and misery (man and animals) occurring over long periods of time. However Scripture says Adams sin brought about death for the first time. It also says death is the last enemy to be destroyed. How can death be an enemy if (as the fossil record shows) it existed for eons before man, what God used to create?

You need to think through the consequences of this theory.

Remember also it is not mentioned, nor even alluded to anywhere in Scripture. It was created to explain the fossil record, by people who would not accept the world-wide flood of Noah.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Warwick, death of what? There were no men on earth until the FIRST MAN ADAM was created...and that was on the 6th day. We KNOW through scripture the angels were with God when he laid the foundation, and we know Satan (sin) had already fallen and entered the garden of eden even before Adams's sin, and we know angels do not die.

The gap theory has nothing to do with Adams sin or the Gospel.


Warwick scripture is silent as to when God created the UNIVERSE. But we do have clues, since we do know God has no beginning or end...do you believe God sat darkness until He said let there be light? God is light!

Let there be Light on the first day is not the light of the sun or moon or stars!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


Markv, Thank you!

Steven G,
All of those things are true to a certain point.
God's chosen people are not identified by flesh any more.
God's people are identified by Christ!
He is our passover now. NOT lambs blood as it was in egypt.
If you don't have Christ, you don't get in. Israel, Jew or Gentile.
They won't be saved UNLESS they come to Christ, period. He says so. Why are you arguing with Christ when he says HE is the way, the truth and the life?
By the way, in Christ you are Neither, jew or gentile, you are HIS!
---miche3754 on 9/12/09


Kathr, you proposed Jeremiah 4:23 supports the Gap Theory.

The Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon (BDB) says 'Bohu' is used 3 times in the OT, with a different meaning each time. 1) Genesis 1:2: to describe 'the primaeval earth,' the earth in its created condition.

2) Jeremiah 4:23: of 'earth under judgement.'

3) Isaiah 34:11: something destroyed. Here it concerns the destruction of walls.

BDB define 'Tohu' as used in Genesis 1:2 as meaning 'formlessness of primaeval earth'- It carries no suggestion of something reduced to a condition of formlessness.

The Gap Theory places death before man's sin, undermining the gospel. On this grounds alone it should be rejected by Christians.
---Warwick on 9/12/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Has anyone checked Kendall's interpretation of 2 Thes.2:6-7 ?

It's not the Holy Spirit being spoken of as removed from the earth, when verse 7 states "being taken out of the way". Paul was putting them in remembrance of Christ Jesus who withheld & did not give up nor reveal the Holy Ghost until 'His Time', even though the mystery of iniquity was already at work : only God who lets, let it continue, until Christ be taken out of the way, ascending into Heaven.

As for question #2) YES~The seal of the Holy Spirit is needed to be born again and everyone who shall be saved is given the seal of the Living God before the earth shall be hurt by the tribulation of the four angels. Rev.7:2-4
---Shawn.M.T on 9/12/09


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Steven G, Miche was saying that no one can enter the kingdom of God in other way but through Christ. She was asking the question when she said, "Do you really think Israel is to be rescued without being in Christ?
---MarkV. on 9/11/09


miche3754: "Do you really think Israel is to be rescued without being in Christ?"

The Jewish nation including the Israelites, will always be God's people - forever. God said so himself many times. All throughout the bible the israelites/jews were rewarded when they obeyed and was punished by God when they disobeyed. Today the nation of Israel is going through one of their punishing periods. Why do you suppose Israel is the center of attraction in the end times - especially Jerusalem? You must also remember that christians are grafted into the jewish line, not a separate body.
---Steveng on 9/11/09


There is to be a new heaven and a new earth. The chosen christians will go to heaven at the first resurrection where the dead in Christ shall rise and the living shall be caught up with the dead. These are heaven bound.

Those people who endure unto the end shall live on the earth for a thousand years being reigned by Jesus. At the end of that thousand years all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their work. This is the second resurrection.

There will be people who populate the new heaven and there will those who populate the new earth.

Blessed are those who rise in the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 9/11/09


There are no other bodies mentioned in Scripture, However there are NATIONS mentioned in Scripture.-kath

Not true!

Romans 12:4-5,
1 Corinthians 10:16-17, 12:12-27
Ephesians 2:15-17, 3:5-7, 4:3-5, 5:30
Colossians 1:18, 2:17, 3:15
Hebrews 13:3
These all speak of being part of Christ's body. In Christ's body there is no more gentile, jew, or israelite.
The only door is Christ. Israel can't be rescued without stepping through the door that is Christ and becoming part of his body. To come without Christ is sneaking like a thief!(John 10:1) God doesn't tolerate that.
The Bible clearly states this. None come to God but through Christ.
Do you really think Israel is to be rescued without being in Christ?
---miche3754 on 9/11/09


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There are no other bodies mentioned in Scripture, However there are NATIONS mentioned in Scripture.

If one read Zechariah 12-14, we see NATIONS of people being RULED by the King of Kings..Jesus. This however is NOT Heaven...as you will see the WARNING to Egypt (the end of Zech 14) who refuses to come to Jerusalem once a year and WORSHIP etc.

Now, if you think this is how God is going to rule Heaven...Oh My....Droughts in Heaven???

Sorry, this is the 1000 year millennial Reign of Christ who rules at that time with HIS BODY the Church, as promised in the beginning of REV, those who overcome....will reign and RULE the NATIONS with Christ!

THIS is the Hope of our Calling Paul speaks of in Ephesians 4!
---kathr4453 on 9/11/09


All believers make up The body of Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles. There is no other bodies mentioned in Scripture. Any other idea's or opinions by anyone are false and not biblical.

"There is One body and One Spirit, just as you were called in one Hope of your calling. One Lord, One faith, One baptism, One God and Father of all who is above all, and through all, and in You all." Eph. 4:4-6.
---MarkV. on 9/11/09


Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.
---exzucuh on 9/11/09


When it's time to flee, it's time to flee.

But do not worry, there are "underground railroads" for christians to follow and safe houses to live in (by christian sympathizers) as during Christ's time and during the Holocaust.

Pray to the Father that you and yours be safe during these perilous times and that God will direct your path.
---Steveng on 9/9/09


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I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thoumayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that over cometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Amen
---john_camping on 9/9/09


your question is a good reason to realize that the Holy Spirit is not who is removed. but the believers through whom the Holy Spirit works.

after the believers who had been looking for Jesus to rapture them are removed, the Holy Spirit remains to continue to do His job in bringing people to salvation.
---JaeR on 9/8/09


Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---exzucuh on 9/8/09


The only way a person could be a Jew now is to be saved and born again. Judaism does not exist anymore according to God.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God.
---exzucuh on 9/8/09


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That which is removed from the earth is the BODY of Christ, however the Holy Spirit will still be here on earth. WE His Body are what restrains at this time. We are His Hands, feet, voice etc. Christ in us is mighty powerful. The gates of Hell cannot prevail against us. We are more than conquers.

During the Great Tribulation as the World has NEVER seen, we see the 144,000 witnesses, 12,000 from the Tribes of ISRAEL SEALED with the Holy Spirit, and the two Prophets.

The Church is NOT the 12 tribes of Israel making up the Body of Christ. Just as in OT times, the Holy Spirit worked, even though there was not the RISEN BODY of Christ on earth at that time either.


The Everlasting Gospel will be preached.
---kathr4453 on 9/8/09


Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign, and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

The word of God is received by faith but the faithless cannot receive it, they want proof.
Prove God exists! I believe he does but I cannot prove he does. Prove that people are saved. How? by what means? Jesus told the disciples they would sit on thrones in heaven
over the tribes of Israel, What tribes would they rule over if they were not saved out of the church that was at Jerusalem.
---exzucuh on 9/7/09


---Mark_Eaton given the choice of denying the Lord Jesus Christ and taking mark of the beast and getting my head cut off I do not believe that I could run to the chopping block, as tradition says the apostle Paul did, however I believe that I could make my way there with no regrets and no reservations!!!!
---mima on 9/7/09


It is the Holy Spirit who testifies of Christ and makes His Truth known to us (John 15:26, 16:14,15).
I am with Donna in her answers. I don't believe this is a very hard question. A person lost needs to be born of the Spirit. It is the Spirit who gives life. "Thats why Jesus said He was going away in order that the Helper would come and convict the world of sin, because they did not believe in Him"
---MarkV. on 9/6/09


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** \\ Don't you know that salvation was to the Jew first and the 144,000 was out of the first Jewish church, \\

Please give book, chapter, and verse for this.
---Cluny on 9/4/09

I will if you can give scripture that can prove what I said is not true.**

You made the statement. Therefore it's up to you to prove it's true--not to me to prove it's untrue.
---Cluny on 9/6/09


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Holy Spirit DWELLS within True Christians IT is not in a building or within the earth IT is a GIFT GIVEN by The Father in Heaven and IT is by this POWER True Christians will be resurrected AFTER the tribulation when ALL will be

John 6:40 ...and I will raise him up at the last day

antichrist rapture theory dismisses 1Corin 15 simply because it cannot be tied back to the rapture LIE - it is a mystery to RELIGIOUS christianity
---Rhonda on 9/6/09


\\ Don't you know that salvation was to the Jew first and the 144,000 was out of the first Jewish church, \\

Please give book, chapter, and verse for this.
---Cluny on 9/4/09

I will if you can give scripture that can prove what I said is not true. The tribulation that Jesus was talking about was in 70 ad read a book learn about history get out of your ignorance. A lot can happen in 2009 years.
---exzucuh on 9/5/09


Mima, Alena:

I do not agree. I believe it will be VERY difficult to be saved during the tribulation.

Scripture tells us that the people do not repent:

Rev 9:20 "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, ..."

Rev 16:11 "and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and they did not repent of their deeds"

I believe that those who had heard the gospel before the Trib, will not be able to believe it during the Trib (1 Thes 2:10-12)
---Mark_Eaton on 9/5/09


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I believe---Alena answer is very good. I also believe that in order to be saved after the rapture you'll have to lose your head by way of having it copped off!!!
---mima on 9/5/09


I believe a person can be saved after the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth because if they have knowledge of the truth, and didn't apply it before, they still can. It's going to be alot harder to live without the aid of the Holy Spirit to empower them. But truth is truth. If they act on truth, I believe they can be saved by what they already know.
---Alena on 9/5/09


If the Holy Spirit has been removed from the earth, no one on earth can be saved. No one can be born again without the the Holy Spirit.The pre-trib rapture is in contradiction of these truths.


Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
1Jo 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
---Donna66 on 9/4/09


Jesus says, "there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (in Matthew 24:21) > the *greatest* tribulation, "ever". Then He says, "immediately after the tribulation of those days," (see Matthew 24:29-31) He will appear and gather His people. And Revelation chapter seven speaks of the 144,000. Plus, this chapter tells us of "a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9) > these "come out of the great tribulation" (verse 14) > "no one could number" these, so they are "maybe" more than 144,000. So, Satan won't be ruling everyone (o:
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/4/09


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\\ Don't you know that salvation was to the Jew first and the 144,000 was out of the first Jewish church, \\

Please give book, chapter, and verse for this.
---Cluny on 9/4/09


Don't you know that salvation was to the Jew first and the 144,000 was out of the first Jewish church, The first Christians saved were Jews and they were all killed by persecution
in like manner as Jesus. The book of Revelation was to the seven churches in Asia and they were told that it would come to pass quickly to them. In 2009 years you can find all the book of revelation prophecies through out history. The church needs to worry about now and if they are lining up with the Gospel
and living according to the word of Christ.
That is all that will matter when you stand before him.
---exzucuh on 9/4/09


God's Salvation Plan Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20, that door will be closed to us gentiles aft the rapture. The door to God's Salvation then Will be to the 144 thousand Jewish people after the rapture takes place.
---Lawrence on 9/4/09


First of all the Great tribulation doctrine is a Fable. It is created by scripture manipulation not gospel doctrine.
Acts 14:22 , and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

All Christians encounter tribulation.
Also it is true that salvation is Sealed by the Holy Spirit that is given by turning to Jesus and obeying the Gospel.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
---exzucuh on 9/4/09


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(Joh 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

(1Jn 5:6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ, not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
---TheSeg on 9/3/09


Don't cast me away from your presence, and don't take your holy Spirit from me. Restore the joy of Thy salvation to me, and uphold me with your free spirit. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners I shall convert unto you.

The tribulation will be the time Satan has full reign on earth. Man's conscious will be gone, not knowing right from wrong.

The mystery of iniquity.

It is love that is the restainer. Without love there is no conscious. Without a conscious, there is no right and wrong. Without right and wrong, there is no love for God or they neighbors. Without love there is no holy Spirit to guide people.
---Steveng on 9/3/09


kendall, you've given just ONE reason why there's no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.
---Cluny on 9/3/09


I believe the Holy Spirit's influence will be removed from the world at large, and that His saving will be done as it was in OT times, coming on individuals only.
---tommy3007 on 9/3/09


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