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Born With Holy Spirit

The Bible says AlL have sinned and fell short. SInce this is true, why do others say God placed his love in some people and not in others? Wouldn't this mean that some are born with the Holy spirit in them?

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 ---g on 9/11/09
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..by "surrender" I obviously mean to God's LOVE.."there is a battle to be born again"
---richard on 1/1/10


JackB - I also had some problems with the belief God in His sovereignty chose those whom He would save.

But what spin do you put on the following?

Ro 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, .... And those he predestined he also called, and those he called he also justified, and those he justified he also glorified.

Eph.1:4-6... even as he chose us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

we may disagree but the doctrine can defended.
---Lee1538 on 1/1/10


JackB - Like the doctrine of predestination we may have another problem concerning the sovereignty of God that we may dislike.

Ro 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

And like a potter, pots that are not useful or desired can be destroyed.

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

I think we should be careful in attributing our own sense of fairness onto the sovereignty of God.
---Lee1538 on 1/1/10


Scripture is everywhere clear-the one thing a person must do to be saved is exercise "true saving faith" in Christ. Faith is the instrument that God uses to bring individuals into a saving relationship with Himself. That is not to say that faith is the basis of our salvation, rather, it is the channel by which God grants salvation. Faith comes to the believer as a gift when he hears the gospel. Were faith a work of man's own doing, man would be in a position to take partial credit for his redemption. Such a concept is foreign to the writers of Scripture. Paul anticipated that men would tend to boast of their part in salvation when he wrote that faith (one of many components of salvation) is the gift of God...that no one should boast.
---MarkV. on 1/1/10


The answer is in your question,"why do others say"..calvinism holds to some profound truths about God's sovereignty, these are often badly represented by calvinists and arminians alike!..However arminiasm is based on the "premise"that man's freewill is the responsible agent for accepting or rejecting grace,if you were Paul knocked off your horse, spoken to by Jesus from Heaven and struck blind by the experience,how much would you consider your salvation a "free choice"on your own part?..No,it's SURRENDER!
---richard on 1/1/10




Some cling to the doctrine of election for eternal security. For some reason they didnt find OSAS in the Bible without believing God has chosen them above the rest without any decision of their own.
Its the belief that God took away free will after Adam and Eve sinned and decided Himself who will see Heaven and who will see Hell now. Though the Bible instructs us to decide who we will serve and gives us the consequences of each decision, they claim we dont have a choice.

Its a horrible belief that makes God look as though he doesnt love some and therefore keeps the truth of Christ hidden from their eyes.

Its just another way for some Christians to exalt themselves above others. Its a faith void of true love and compassion.
---JackB on 12/31/09


Kathr here again is where you do not define the terms of what you are speaking about. Again you use this methods to confuse and deceive others and move them away from what the bible really says.
---Bobby1 on 10/2/09


SEPARATION: 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house,unto a land that I will shew thee:

VESSEL OF HONOUR: 2And I will make of thee a great nation,(ISRAEL) and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing:

VESSELS OF WRATH: 3And I will bless them that bless thee,and curse him that curseth thee.

So,Jacob/Israel, Gods vessels of Honor,Abrahams physical descendents revealed the WRATH of GOD ON Pharaoh who cursed Jacob/ Israel and Gods SOVEREIGN promise to them, will again unleash HIS wrath/CURSE to Pharaoh / EgyptAKA:Gentile arrogance, at HIS Return. Zechariah 12-14!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


This is for all who believe not just for Israel. "All" means all who have faith.
---MarkV. on 9/27/09

Romans 9, Israel's past
Romans 10 is Israel's present
Romans 11 Israel's FUTURE.

Keeping these verses in perspective YES Those scriptures are explaining God's plan that He is not finished with ISRAEL.


You have used these many times to Prove YOUR ELECTION....not your FAITH.

Are men really totally depraved, except for the ELECT?



John 8:9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


God bless you
Dont, thank me, all is given!

If I am to believe God! Am I not to look at myself?
When I look at myself, what do I see?
Do I see the spirit of God, within me? Surely not!
What I do see. A man who is a sinner!
Not that, I want to sin. But do!

If I believe, have faith in God! Good, well done!
But, if I know for sure he is and I still sin!
Who, on this earth, can be guiltier then me?
As I see it! There can be no one! Mat 18:35!

You know if you read it, right!
It tells you who is, first and last!
Only a fool would measure him!
God Bless
---TheSeg on 9/27/09




The Seg, I want to thank you for your exposition, and Truth of the gospel concerning God and His children. Many here like Lee, Donna, Shawn T, and so many others have given the Truth as it is written for everyone not just for Israel as Kathr has stated many times.
"Even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and all who believe." For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, been justified "freely" by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith."
This is for all who believe not just for Israel. "All" means all who have faith.
---MarkV. on 9/27/09


In the end wood, hay and stubble will only add to the fire!

I will tell you this, at the end! You will have everything or you will have nothing! So, feed the poor with your wood, hay and stubble. For, they're hungry and have no one to feed them. Here you will find teachers, priests and so-call believers.

In the world, however! Some have been told there is no hope for them. Because, they have not been baptized, born again, and saved. They are lost and dont believe. The world has stepped on them, and now, they will not even hear your words.

What will you do, pray for them? Yes, pray very hard!
May you find the way, they are saved!

God Bless
---TheSeg on 9/26/09


The Seg, The propitiation was made for ALL humanity, not just certain vessels of clay to be reformed on the potters wheel. Your doctrine completely leaves out the BLOOD of Jesus Christ.

Those scriptures have NOTHING to do with Salvation of individuals, but to ISRAEL.

And Timothy states that in God's house are many vessels, one to Honor and to dishonor, BUT continues to say IF WE separate ourselves God will make us a vessel of Honor fit for HIS USE....NOT fit for salvation. If you think it means fit for salvation you are teaching WORKS salvation! Hello!


many CHRISTIANS, will only have WOOD hay and stubble at the end...although they will still be saved...were NEVER fit for the Masters USE!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/26/09


I have loved you, saith the LORD.
Mat 5:45

I was raised a catholic. The day came, for my first holy communion!
I was too little to understand, how and why, we see God the way we do.
I was stopped at the door, for missing a day of school. By a woman!
I hold nothing against her, for she was doing her job. As, I see it!
Today people say so many things about, the salvation of the lord.
I hold nothing against them, for they are doing their job. As, I see it!

I tell people! If you dont know how to open the door, do not close it.
Mat 19:30
Joh 4:21 - 24

Blessed are the poor in spirit!
God Bless You
---TheSeg on 9/26/09


Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary

1Co12:31
---TheSeg on 9/26/09


The Seg,I love those verses you placed here, but nowhere does it imply what the question asks.

The answer to the question is NO, God did not place the Holy Spirit in some and not others before they were born.

The Promise of the HOLY Spirit is given to those who OBEY...and then those who have OBEYED can say with The Seg...the scriptures he placed here, not before.

If one will re-read Romans 4-5...Romans 5 Clearly STATE one must be JUSTIFIED first...and then those who have been Justified by FAITH/believing in Jesus Christ work on the cross..THEN the LOVE of God is shed abroad in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians also CLEARLY STATE we are given and sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe..not before.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/09


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1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours,


Ye are bought with a price!
---TheSeg on 9/24/09


God does not put the Holy Spirit into anybody until they are able to decide to want Him and ask for Him. Luckless men and women think they have the Holy Spirit when they don't. I'll tell you why. The Holy Spirit is not running away from anything. Think that over.
---Betty on 9/23/09


Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Because I always thought it was God through his word, namely Jesus Christ.
That draws a person to him, so he may receive the Holy Ghost.
And get the answers he so seeks.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee,
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

GodBless
---TheSeg on 9/20/09


TheSeg -- The Holy Spirit is God. He is omnipresent. He has existed since the beginning. Genesis 1:2 (Amplified Bible)
The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

The Bible, OT esp., speaks more often about the HS "coming upon" a person than indwelling a person. Only believers in Jesus Christ have the Holy Spirit within them.The Holy Spirit doesn't fill an unbeliever but may draw him toward the Word of God and enable him to believe, that he may accept Jesus as Lord.

---Donna66 on 9/20/09


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Shawn T. great words my brother'
" God's Spirit moves in the earth to spiritually bear witness of the Word by first coming upon us(not dwelling in us) to Draw open our Hearts eyes & ears."
For without that work of God we would never hear or understand. Praise God for His Spirit and work in the lives of all genuine believers.
---MarkV. on 9/19/09


Shawn.M.T.

God bless you
Spiritually, understanding and not dwelling in us?
I assume, you know what you believe.

But, I would like you to believe, I think about God, all the time! I know it been say, but I want you to know, I do! For it seems to me, I have nothing else. I just want you to know, who you are speaking too or the kind of person! But understand I am, only a sinner.

How about, not in us, this would be his spirit, right?
The Holy Spirit, right! Not dwelling in us?
Why is there some other place he must be?
Ill ask you, do you believe there is a better place to be then in man?
May God bless you!
---TheSeg on 9/18/09


Faith unto Salvation doesn't come from physically believing/understanding what we see/hear in Deut.30:10 but from our Hearts Spiritually Believing/ Understanding the Higher Thoughts/Ways of His Word. God's Spirit moves in the earth to spiritually bear witness of the Word by first coming upon us(not dwelling in us) to Draw open our Hearts eyes/ears.
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/15/09


Thank you Shawn M.T. for your answer. You said what I, Nana and Miche and others have said. THE SPIRIT bears witness to the WORD, just as Jesus said, the Spirit will bear witness of ME, and Jesus bears witness to the Father. Nothing about indwelling anyone first.

The Water, Blood and Spirit are ONE that bear witness on the earth. 1st John!
---kathr4453 on 9/18/09


It seems everyone is saying you must believe to have faith! But, if the devil believe! Yet have not faith, then where is there faith. Why dont they have faith, if they believe?
Do you believe they have not heard God?

I say God, because what you are talking about, is God! The word of God is God! The lord is the word of God. Therefore his words are from God! Do you not understand this?
The spirit he gives you is from God. God is giving you his spirit!

On top of this, God is forgiving you your sins. God word to you!
All this and more is so order by God. Not in your hands!
But, you dont believe this! Do you?
GodBless
---TheSeg on 9/18/09


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Shawn T, thank you for the way you word your answers. They are very comforting to me and I am sure to many others. Sure you will have those who oppose God beginning the work of salvation on the lost individuals but that is ok because that will always be, many who oppose the Truth. Could be it is not their time yet to understand that Truth, but is the beginning of their seeking. Only God knows brother, but they cannot begin to know unless you bring it out and you have very well, peace to you brother Shawn,
---MarkV. on 9/18/09


//Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. So, devils have faith. Right?

I rather doubt that the gift of salvation was made to demons but only to the human race that Christ came to redeem. John 3:16.





---lee on 9/17/09


Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

So, devils have faith. Right
I mean, you said believing Christ.
So, who more then the devil, know who he is!
So, then why do they tremble?
Could it be there is more then you believe?
No right, you have all the answer.

So, why dont the devils have faith?

Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I receive not honour from men.

You know the lord said I came to save the world!
What say you?
Add To It.

God Bless
---TheSeg on 9/17/09


Rhonda,
On the matter of the holy spirit as co creator.Did you read the scriptures for where does it say ,"God's spirit moved upon the face of the waters"."Let us make man in our image".Now, Psalms. 104.29-30 what happens when God sends out his spirit?-His spirit creates.
On the matter of "inner man",I have two scripture most used.Eph.3.16,Ro.7.22.
It is evident the holy spirit was here from the beginning of the universe yet it remains a confusing issue as does indwelling spirit and spirit of truth, commonly confused with holy spirit, that has been with for only little over 2000 yrs.In all accuracy in reply to the poster if it were not for the holy spirit renewing life we all soon cease to exist .
---earl on 9/16/09


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I personally believe that all people are drawn by the Father at one time in their life, so that God may be justified in His judgment of them.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/09

I understand what Markv is saying BUT he is not understanding what I am saying. God draws us through HIS word of TRUTH! The Bible says this. Thats what Im saying. Thats why we need the ministries. To spread the word of Truth and when people Hear God's word, the seed gets planted. The reason WHY some don't listen, is what Jesus explains in the parable of the soils.
Markv says that they don't even hear God's word. Thats not true. If they didn't hear, then why do we have the WORD, the Bible, and ministries?
WHy does Jesus say listen AND obey?
---miche3754 on 9/16/09


The holy spirit is the co creator as is Jesus the creator son.The inner man works within our soul and the spirit of truth is Jesus' personal one in doing as the name states.
*****

LOL what? honestly WHAT does that say?

Where in scripture is all this drivel?

There are no scriptures that support or IMPLY the Holy Spirit is a "co-creator"

There are no scriptures that describe an "inner man" or IMPLY this idea

The entire post looks like hokey new-age spiritualism the "god within" I think they reference or something to that effect ...if not maybe something from a Harry Potter book
---Rhonda on 9/15/09


Christianology has grouped the holy spirit ,indwelling spirit or inner man and the spirit of truth as one entity or spirit.
From God comes the source of all spirit and every diversification,classification and form of spirit but there are cosmological differences between the three spirits listed above although unity throughout is the same however cosmological function is not-their more specific contributions to the personality.
The holy spirit is the co creator as is Jesus the creator son.The inner man works within our soul and the spirit of truth is Jesus' personal one in doing as the name states.
---earl on 9/15/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Actually He said "THEREFORE CHOOSE LIFE".

God's Spirit is Drawing Hearts to Choose Life, to Choose the Truth, to Choose the Way which is found through the Blood of the Living Waters of God's Word made flesh, Christ Jesus.

A Heart that spiritual understands has departed from evil & Chooses Life. (Job 28:28)

Faith unto Salvation doesn't come from physically believing & understanding what we see & hear in Deut.30:10 but from our Hearts Spiritually Believing & Understanding the Higher Thoughts & Ways of His Word. God's Spirit moves in the earth to spiritually bear witness of the Word by first coming upon us(not dwelling in us) to Draw open our Hearts eyes & ears.
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/15/09


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Christ? All the other continued their path. Faith did not come to them. Do you know why? Because they did not receive it from God. - markv.

It is because they DON"T BELIEVE. Jesus says so himself.
Go back and re-read the parable of the soils. It explains WHY some people don't believe and why some do.
It explains 4 different types of people that the word(seed) fell in and why for a while they believed but then stopped believing. It is not because God doesn't want them to believe or God didn't come to them, it is because the enemy can easily blind some to God's truth. and he has many methods, markv. That is why they don't believe.
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


Miche:

I believe what MarkV is referring to is:

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day".

The Father must first draw us toward Jesus, then we hear the Word and can make a choice for ourselves.

I personally believe that all people are drawn by the Father at one time in their life, so that God may be justified in His judgment of them.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/15/09


Markv do you undersatnd that faith is BELIEVING?
It is. That is what Faith is -BELIEVING.
Your problem is you think it is different when it is not.
If you read ALL that Christ said you will see that HE equates believing with faith and faith with believing.
Do you have to have the Holy Spirit to believe what Christ says is true? Nope.
But you do need the Holy Spirit to identify you as belinging to God and to learn God's will for your life.
And the Holy SPirit will not come to you unless you believe! The Holy Spirit doesn't make you believe then save you markv. You do realize that is what you are saying and that is not biblical because that is NOT what Jesus says!
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


Miche, God does say, "I set before you live and death-choose"
those words are spoken in many places, and did you notice that only those with true saving faith chose Christ? All the other continued their path. Faith did not come to them. Do you know why? Because they did not receive it from God. Even the beginning of faith, the disposition to seek salvation, is itself a work of grace and the gift of God.
---MarkV. on 9/15/09


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//MarkV - **Lee, what I have noticed lately there is a lot of people right now on line calling others names and showing a very bad un-christ behavior. Almost demonic.

Yes, I agree some on this forum have not the Spirit of God indwelling them and they truly serve a different master. However, we should be more careful and try to be more Christ-like in our answers to their accusations otherwise the sin is at our door.

2 Cor.10:3-6 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ,being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
---Lee1538 on 9/15/09


Markv,
What Kath is saying IS truth.
God says "I set before you life and death- Choose".
"Life and death are in the power of the tongue".
"Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, Knock and the door shall be opened"
These are actions done by us. God doesn't make us do it. He lets us choose.
God can't transform us without the Holy Spirit and we can't receive the Holy Spirit without BELIEVING, REPENTING and ASKING for it.
- If salvation is a free gift to all, why do YOU think God only offered it to some?
Jesus died for all mankinds sins, not just some. ITS COVERED! All thats required is Believing it! then HS will come a reveal the things Of God to them.
---mich3754 on 9/15/09


Miche, you are amen-ing false teachings. Do you really want to go on that path? Listen Miche, you do have a choice, just as you have been saying, but that choice is not free. When you make your decision, it will be motivated by something within you. Just as those who are lost. They too make a choice, but all their choices are motivated by something, so their wills are not free. They are bias to their condition, their nature, they are children of wrath and want to do the desires of their father the devil.
Be smart and search for the Truth with an open heart.
---MarkV. on 9/15/09


Amen again Kath!!
I loved your last post!
Awesome words of God!
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


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The Seq,
Jesus says "Believe what I say and I will save you". If you don't believe me, go back and read how many times Jesus asks us to Believe him.
To believe is to display faith.
Believe=faith
Holy Ghost DOESN't come and give you faith to believe Christ. The HS is not given until you repent and believe Christ.(Act 19:2)
God sets before you a choice to believe or not!
Choose life or death!
Believe Christ= Life
Not Believing Christ=death!
HELLO!!!!!
The only action God ever asked us to do is to Believe him. THAT'S IT! Just to believe then HE will do the rest. HE will increase that Belief(Faith) everyday as he teaches us to do HIS will, not our own.
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


John 3:3
...Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Scripture teaches scripture.

Born Again,used 3 times in scripture, Peter CLARIFIES EXACTLY what it is to be Born Again.

You weren't Born Again first 5 minutes before Pastor Riley knocked on your door to bring you the Gospel.

YOU were Born Again by the Word you RECEIVED when you first Heard the Gospel.

Faith comes by Hearing,not before!
---kathr4453 on 9/15/09


Kathrine you said that we are born of the word, where can we find that in the Bible? False statement.
You also said "I thumb my nose at OT sacrifice of BLOOD and all that God taught" can you show where? I don't think so. False statement.
You said, "They just had a problem with JESUS because he left glory, came in HUMILITY , not in all His Glory as they supposed, they called Mary's illig son. " you don't know what you are talking about, for it has nothing to do with rebirth.

If you think I am wrong on Scripture, stop calling me names, and show me with the Word of God where I am wrong, instead of with your mouth. "Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil:"
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


MarkV #2 Please post.


MarkV, since all scripture is backed up one way or another by other scripture, please, show us clearly where in the picture of the Tabernacle Moses built after the things of heaven , please show us WHERE in all that, the sprinkling of Blood, the lamb upon the alter etc, please show us ALL where in that picture GOD was teaching that only cetain people understood? Please show us where certain people were not included in the day of Atonement? or some had to stand outside the camp on the day of atonement?Blindfolded and their ears stuffed!

Have not all HEARD, Yes Said God...Romans 3!


I realy hate to say this MarkV, what your teaching is as subtle as satan's lies to Eve....by twisting God's word!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


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That is why we are saved by grace not on account of faith. MarkV***


MarkV, Israel had a ZEAL for God but not according to FAITH...Those did not enter the promise land because NO FAITH.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN! MarkV, YOU do not have FAITH.

You completely thumb your nose at OT sacrifice of BLOOD and all that God taught.

It isn't that Israel didn't believe...they just didn't believe JESUS was the Christ.

They believed in the coming redeemer, Messiah.

They just had a problem with JESUS because he left glory, came in HUMILITY , not in all His Glory as they supposed, they called Mary's illig son.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


Shawn T, What some here suggest is that while lost, they have faith to believe and then they are born again. Kathr is one of them. Paul says that we are saved "through" faith (that is, as the instrumental cause), but never once does he say that we are saved "on account" of faith (that is, as the meritorious cause). That is why we are saved by grace not on account of faith. That is why Eph. 2:1 and 2:4 start's with "But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


I'm in total agreement with---kathr4453 and her last post.
---mima on 9/14/09


It seems some are saying one can believe without faith?
I like to know, how this is possible.
Is it not written! God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith!

Priest!
And how is it, faith come by hearing! What the bible?
Does not faith come by the hand of God?
Is not everything from God?

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Is not the word of God, Christ!
Is not Christ, God!

Convince all to have faith, you will have the faithful!
Convince all to believe, you will have the believer!
Convince all they have sin! You have a lot of sinner.
Convince yourself you are a sinner before God, thou doest well!
---TheSeg on 9/14/09


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MarkV, Can you prove through scripture WHEN someone was born of the Spirit? Was that before the foundation of the world? At your physical birth?

We are told through scrpture we are BORN again OF the Word.....not before the WORD. The WORD who became Flesh is Jesus Christ.

The Last man Adam is the LIFE giving Spirit. There is no Born Again experience apart from the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. OT saints were NOT Born again of the Risen Life of Christ in them...however they did have faith to believe God!

If you have the faith of Abraham, then you are Abraham's seed. Abraham was Justified FIRST, and never received a Born Again experience IMPOSSIBLE, before. Jesus Christ had not died and risen.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


As mima has referred to, John the Baptist:

Luke 1:15 "For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb".

What does this say about free will? Could John have changed his mind and altered the plan of God?

Was John elected by God and predestined by God?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/14/09


Amen Kath!!!

You have to be washed in his blood.
Baptised into his death.
You have to repent of your sins.
All this must be done to receive the Holy Spirit.
You have to put on His death (death of the flesh)so that His spirit can live in you.
And his Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
---miche3754 on 9/14/09


A lot of what you believe is so true.
If one has not faith, how does he say tomorrow?
How does he take his next breath? Is it not by God?
He believes it will happen and it does! By faith!

Know this! Everyone is given a measure of faith! 2Co 10:13-18

You can say, your faith is weak, because some have weakened they faith.
Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

To say ye have not faith!
Jas 2:4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

I always remember
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant?
For I know who and what I am.
Just a sinner!
---TheSeg on 9/14/09


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When the person is born of the Spirit he receives the ability to believe, see and hear, though he has not heard the word of God yet, when he does hear it, faith in the word comes to the individual. MarkV**


That is a total DISTORTION and LIE.

We are Not BORN of the Spirit until we are FIRST Justified by His Blood. THEN we are SAVED by His Life. To be Saved by HIS Life is the Risen Life of Christ In you and THAT is your Born Again Experience.

To say one can be Born again APART from the Risen Christ in you is a distortion the Mormons believe....

MarkV is leaving out Jesus, giving all glory to the Holy Spirit who did not die on a cross for your sin. MarkV DOES NOT understand the doctrine of the CROSS!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


Markv,
You have salvation backwards.
This is #1-
"He hears the word and now believes it by faith, Understands it (The Spirit reveals it) and repents, (The Spirit convicts him) because he now sees the rebellion against God in his heart and he confessess the Lord as his Savrior."
---MarkV. on 9/13/09
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit happens AFTER HEARING AND BELIEVING!
"He needs to be born again of the Spirit to not only recieve the endwelling of the Spirit but faith and repentance."
---MarkV. on 9/13/09
This is step 2.
You must believe FIRST to receive the Holy Spirit. NOT Receive the Holy Spirit then believe.
You need to reread the Appearance of the HS again.
---miche3754 on 9/14/09


Shawn T, what I am saying is exactly what you said,
Correct me if I'm wrong MarkV, but he's sharing that we're Drawn by God's Spirit coming upon us(not dwelling in us) opening our eyes & ears so we see & hear the Higher Thoughts & Ways of His Word. Numb.24:2-5, 1 Sam.10:10-11, 1 John 4:1-3."
You explained it perfectly.

G. you said, "But none of us believed until we were told the truth about Jesus through someone God gifted with one of the gifts of ministry." When the person is born of the Spirit he receives the ability to believe, see and hear, though he has not heard the word of God yet, when he does hear it, faith in the word comes to the individual.
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


G. The lost do not have faith, if they did they would not be unbelievers. They don't have faith in order to be saved, they have faith because they are saved.
Regeneration is refered in Scripture as, "making alive" a "calling out of darkness into the light" a "quickening," a "renewing," a taking away of the heart of stone and giving the heart of flesh, a "drawing by God," etc, which work is excluively that of the Holy Spirit. As a result of this change a man comes to see the Truth and gladly accepts it.
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


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Donna 2 :
Nothing could be so clear then the rebirth of individuals. When they were fleshly born they were spiritually dead, not because of their sinful acts but because of their sinful nature (Matt. 12:35, 15:18,19). Their minds and heart were never for God who is Spirit, they could not comprehend spiritual things. Only two or three people in Scripture had the endwelling of the Holy Spirit before Acts. God endwelled them for a special purpose. The ministry of the Holy Spirit did not begin endwelling believers as a norm until Acts. which means that a person needed to be spiritually alive to receive the endwelling of the Spirit. He needs to be born again of the Spirit to not only recieve the endwelling of the Spirit but faith and repentance.
---MarkV. on 9/13/09


Donna 3 continue:
And when this new life comes to an individual, things are as you said, he is un-aware yet what is happening to him,
"Under the influence of the HS (of whom he is unaware) a man may discover within himself a desire to believe... but have NO idea WHAT to BELIEVE... until he hears the Word. Therefore man cannot be saved without hearing the WORD of God."
He hears the word and now believes it by faith, Understands it (The Spirit reveals it) and repents, (The Spirit convicts him) because he now sees the rebellion against God in his heart and he confessess the Lord as his Savrior.
---MarkV. on 9/13/09


The Bible does not say "ALL" have sinned. The scripture passage compares the sinful nonJew to being equal to the sinful Jew. lit. Greek: "Engender this not! but come to be God whom true, and individual persons erring, according as it has been written, So that you can be justified in them words of you, and you victorious in the judgment. Even the righteousness of God by obeying Jesus Christ onto each and upon whosoever them obeying: seeing there is not a difference, as each sinned, indeed whoever lacking glory of God. To declare at this time his righteousness: in his being he's just, and justifying whom of obedient in Jesus." Romans 3:4,22,23,26.
---Eloy on 9/13/09


Okay, So we agree that God draws through the truth of his word.
So, why is it everytime some says this to people like Markv, and Mima, they deny it?

Mima, I too believe that John the Baptist is the only other person with the holy spirit plced in them before they are born.
He and Jesus bore witness to each other even in the womb. And you are right that Jesus was formed by God alone in Mary's womb.
But none of us believed until we were told the truth about Jesus through someone God gifted with one of the gifts of ministry.
If God did not need the word to be spoken, he would not have given these gifts. He would have chosen each in the womb like he did John the baptist.
---g on 9/13/09


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It is true that ALL have sinned and fell short from the glory of God, all mankind,even pastors or leaders in the church or even someone you may think that they are the best saint in the church, We were all born with the Holy spirit which some people may refer to it as their conscience. The Holy spirit helps a person to distinguish between what is right or wrong.
---liquita on 9/13/09


g.
Correct. FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Even before a person hears the Word, the HS is drawing (not saving) him...otherwise why would a person not be helplessly overcome by the sinfullness of the world?

Under the influence of the HS (of whom he is unaware) a man may discover within himself a desire to believe... but have NO idea WHAT to BELIEVE... until he hears the Word. Therefore man cannot be saved without hearing the WORD of God.
---Donna66 on 9/13/09


-- g :

Not everyone phrases in the exact same way, how God's Spirit Draws us, so make allowances for all that is being shared with you by listening for its discernment first because speech can not convey nor can words express the things of the Spirit, and if 'Swayed' by words one is lost. Only through the Discernment being revealed to us by God's Spirit do we Hear the Word and realize that we are found : for it's the Spirit of Truth that leads us into 'All Truth' that is before us.

God's Spirit is 'God' bearing wittiness of the Word by coming & moving upon us & Drawing us by revealing the Living Waters of God's Word made flesh, Christ Jesus, to us....and from Hearing we come into 'Faith'!
---Shawn.M.T on 9/13/09


To Elder in light of the following Luke 1:41,"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elisabeth WAS FILLED with the Holy Ghost" it would seem that your statement that Holy Spirit didn't take up residence in the believer until is incorrect.--- The Holy Spirit came upon the babe not into him. The Holy Spirit didn't take up abode in the believer until Acts 2 to fulfill Joel's promise from Joel 2.

You are correct scriptures do not say the Holy Spirit came into the babe. However scripture does say, in Matthew 11:11
---mima on 9/13/09


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To Elder- Matthew 11:11,Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Therefore I believe the babe(John the Baptist) was also filled with the Holy Spirit.

Incidentally Matthew 11:11 is also an important verse in understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ was not born of Mary's egg. We know that he was in heaven before being physically born in human form. But the embryo that became his physical body was on a miraculous implantation by no less than Almighty God himself. Also references is made to this in Hebrews 10:5
---mima on 9/13/09


Okay,
So how do you ALL think God's spirit draws people to be saved?
Do you think it is on a whim?
NO!
The Bible says it is through HIS WORD!
Markv, nor Mima have ever said that.
They have said that God comes to them without his WORD!
That is not biblical.
The Bible says that faith comes from hearing and hearing....what? THE WORD OF GOD!
That is how his spirit draws!
If you disagree with this then you disagree with God's word.
---g on 9/12/09


You are perfectly correct Donna. When God the Spirit draws an individual, He is breaking that separation that exsisted from his birth. He was separated from God (which means spiritual death) When God draws him to Himself, he is now in union with God, (which means spiritual life). Explained in Eph. 2:1-10, "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince and power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lust of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath...."
---MarkV. on 9/13/09


G, I agree with Donna66, you have misunderstood both Mima and MarkV. I believe that they have shared just as Shawn.M.T. and Donna has suggested, that "we're Drawn by God's Spirit coming upon us(not dwelling in us...)."
"But before they can believe, thoroughly steeped in sin as all are, the Holy Spirit (who never speaks of himself, but Jesus only) begins drawing them to Him."
I agree completely with those statements based on what Jesus Himself said. " 'No man' can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and 'no man' knows who the Son is, but the Father, and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him." Luke 10:22>Mat 11:27.
---Josef on 9/12/09


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-- g :

While Mima did miss hear the discernment of the word "Filled" in Luke 1:41, MarkV isn't insinuating anyone has the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit before believing & being 'Born Again' through the Blood of the Living Waters of God's Word made flesh, Christ Jesus.

Correct me if I'm wrong MarkV, but he's sharing that we're Drawn by God's Spirit coming upon us(not dwelling in us) opening our eyes & ears so we see & hear the Higher Thoughts & Ways of His Word. Numb.24:2-5, 1 Sam.10:10-11, 1 John 4:1-3.

This is God's Good Pleasure, according to the Purpose of His Predestinated Foreknowledge before Creation, to Call all who have been found Chosen to be conformed to the image of his Son, Christ. Rom.8:28-31
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/12/09


Mimi if John the Baptist had an earthly father then he needed to be Saved. He did and he was. Just because you don't see the event in the Word doesn't mean it didn't happen. Next, Jesus is the Holy Spirit and the Father.
If what you say is correct then we must discard an awful lot of Scripture.
Answer this please, was John the Baptist an Old or New Testament Saint?
The Holy Spirit came upon the babe not into him. The Holy Spirit didn't take up abode in the believer until Acts 2 to fulfill Joel's promise from Joel 2.
All need to remember, also, that preknowledge / foreknowledge is not predestination.
---Elder on 9/12/09


g--I don't think Mima or MarkV are saying what you think. NO unbeliever has the Holy Spirit within.

But before they can believe, thoroughly steeped in sin as all are, the Holy Spirit (who never speaks of himself, but Jesus only) begins drawing them to Him. He sparks a longing for what they do not yet understand.

When these people hear the Word, they can gladly open the door to faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit comes to be a permanent resident in their hearts.

That is what I get from markV and Mima.
(If I haven't got it right, they can correct me)
---Donna66 on 9/12/09


Okay, I really enjoyed all of your answers BUT
Mima, I have seen on here where you agree with Markv, that God draws ONLY those whom he predetermined(chose before birth) to be saved.
This is why I asked the question.
How can you say one thing then turn around and answer as you did here?
These things I know as truth.
God created us all
We are all born into sin with sin in our hearts
The only way we are to be saved is By Christ- believing his word. And that HIS word IS how God draws sinners to be saved.
We DO NOT receive the Holy Spirit unless we believe Christ.
You and Markv, have insinuated that we have the HS BEFORE we believe. THat is false doctrine.
---g on 9/12/09


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Because they are liar, and dont know him!

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Clear?
---TheSeg on 9/11/09


-- g:

The Love of God ~Heart, Soul & Mind~ does abide in us through the indwelling Guidance of the Holy Spirit, who teaches us all things, through bringing all things to our remembrance of whatsoever Christ Jesus has said unto us. John 14:26....but No one is born from their mother's womb with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

We must be 'Born Again' through the Blood of the Living Waters of God's Word made flesh, Christ Jesus, to receive the Holy Ghost which Christ gave-up for the sins of the world, so that we may be sealed with the indwelling Holy Spirit of promise which it the earnest of our Inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession of Salvation in Christ.
---Shawn.M.T on 9/11/09


People say these things because they go with their own doctrine, or what has been taught to them, without searching the scriptures to see if it is true or not. People who say this do NOT read their Bibles, or if they do, they choose to ignor the TRUTH of God's Word, and say what they want to be true.
---Leslie on 9/11/09


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