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Are You A Hated Person

Have you ever had the experience of being hated and despised by a place or by people because you followed the example set by the Bereans?

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 ---Rob on 9/11/09
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Kathr, if you were looking at God's Word with your spiritual eyes you would see the Truth, but you don't have your spiritual eyes on, you have your blinkers on. You are so much against what I say, that you do not realize or maybe you do, you are speaking against God's Word not me.

I first said, "Mima, Jesus death is sufficient for all people in the world if they all believed and trusted in Him by faith.MarkV***" But they don't have faith so they still owe their debt.
Second:
then you said, "MarkV you stated this on another post, and now here you posted the complete opposite by saying Jesus died only for the ELECT."
The elect's debt has been paid, because they had faith and trust in Christ.
---MarkV. on 9/24/09


If we say, "No man knows the mind of God", how could we then say what God have to or did not have to do?
Does not the Bible declare the mind of God and his will, and therefore we are told, Matthew 4:4: "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."? Was not Christ's desire that, John 17:22-23: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them, that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."?
---Nana on 9/24/09


...(and found one similar by the prophet Jeremiah.) Just agreeing with him doesn't make me one of your despised Calvinists.

---Donna66 on 9/23/09

Donna66, But you are agreeing with teh Calvinist doctrine...not MarkV.

The Problem is MarkV quotes from the OT...Jeremiah for one. BUT, Paul tells us the MYSTERY, the ELECT CHURCH, Begotten Sons, was that mystery HIDDEN in the OT, but NOW revealed ...The Mystery is :Christ in you..the Hope of GLORY stated in Colossians 1.

Jesus Christ His CHURCH, AKA Begotten Sons is what was predestined...HIDDEN.

Now, by faith MarkV can become part of the Elect...but only BY FAITH through the CROSS...and THEN he is built up with Christ,Jesus being the Chief cornerstone!
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


Part 2 Please Print.

Whatever extremely fine distiction you are making in your post eludes me. Donna66**

Donna66, here is what it seems you and MarkV are saying,in an underhanded way..

Since God didn't HAVE to save anyone...He has a right to save only who He wants, not according to the scriptures of FAITH, but according to His WHIM..or whatever MOOD He is in from day to day. Therefore, those of you who God didn't save???? you have no right to argue against His sovereign whims..after all He's God and can do anything he feels like.

GOD DOES NOT work through HIS FEELINGS!!! He works through HIS WORD!



If God did not plan to save man..God would never have created man!
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


Amen Kath! Very well put and very much biblical.
Awesome dividing of God's word.
God didn't choose man from the foundation of the world to be elect. He chose Christ.
when we believe on Christ, we are then adopted by God.

Again Kath, awesome ords of God sis!
---miche3754 on 9/23/09




kath4453- I didn't contadict myself. God chose to make man...but He didn't have to. He chose to provide eternal life for those that would believe in Him...but He didn't have to.
God can do whatever He wants because He is God. No man knows the mind of God.

You say >>>Adam/Eve were never promised GLORY were they? They were never Created IN CHRIST to begin with.<<< No disagreement from me there...and no contradiction,either, with anything I've said.
Whatever extremely fine distiction you are making in your post eludes me.

I said I could understand MarkV's remark (and found one similar by the prophet Jeremiah.) Just agreeing with him doesn't make me one of your despised Calvinists.

---Donna66 on 9/23/09


lee,

1 Peter 2:6
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone,Jesus is the Chief corner stone, elect precious ....JESUS-- ELECT, PRECIOUS: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

Again, nowhere does it state anyone was PICKED out over anyone else.

And he that believeth on Him, offering to anyone who believes on Jesus, will be built upon the Chief Cornerstone, who is Christ,THE ELECT.

Who are we? Begotten Sons,through Jesus Christ. God's PLAN from before the foundatin of the world.

Ephesians 1:5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children(BEGOTTEN SONS by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


Mima, Jesus death is sufficient for all people in the world if they all believed and trusted in Him by faith.
But since they don't, only the one's who have faith in His Works on the cross, count as their debts been paid. They are no longer condemn since Christ paid for their sins.
If He paid for everyone sin, then no one owe's a debt, which we know is not true since many are going to hell. If God had paid their debt, it would be unfair for God to send them to hell.
---Mark_V on 7/10/09

MarkV, Do you see the contradiction here...you say ONLY those who have FAITH in His works on the cross. That's correct.

Well, again that FREE bread at Kroger offered to ALL to sustain life...has to be EATEN to sustain life.
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


Dictionary of Theology -

The ELECT are those called by God to salvation.

This election occurs before the foundation of the world #Eph 1:4 and is according to Gods will not mans, #Ro 8:29-30 Ro 9:6-23 because God is sovereign. #Ro 9:11-16

The view of election is especially held by Calvinists who also hold to the doctrine of predestination. -end of quote.

And now we know why Calvinism is so controversial, however, this is totally supported by Scripture much to our own concept of what is fair and just.
---lee on 9/23/09


If they hated Jesus they well hate you because of all the spiritual warfare that goes on in the world
---TERESA on 9/23/09




MarkV on:
Did Jesus Die For Everyone


Mima, Jesus death is sufficient for all people in the world if they all believed and trusted in Him by faith.MarkV***


MarkV you stated this on another post, and now here you posted teh complete opposite by saying Jesus died only for the ELECT.

MarkV, YOU ARE teh author of confusion and people have every right to question your duplicity!!
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


What some don't get is God has had mercy on ALL of us! He sacrificed his son, Jesus! Grace is obtained THROUGH Jesus. anyone can come to him. All they need to do is believe. Believing Jesus is HOW faith shows up in us. Believing things unseen. God didn't just pick a few. He picked mankind, his creation THROUGH the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world. That means FROM THE BEGINING! God planned to sacrifce Jesus to bring mankind, that he loves back to him. Don't let the enemy fool you into thinking that God won't save man, because its a lie. They don't believe now, but they will. HAVE faith that none will perish.
To those who don't believe this, Jesus says "Oh ye of little faith" .
Where is your faith?
---miche3754 on 9/23/09


Donna66, God chose NOT TO destroy man before He created man to begin with.

Yes, the comment was odd from MarkV and you contradicting yourself in agreement with him, and also agreeing it was God's plan from before the foundation of the world??!!.

Actually, since God KNEW man would sin, it's a miracle He created us at all to begin with,is what one should say...BUT....... in God's infinite plan to bring many sons to GLORY,(Begotten sons through Jesus Christ)..that was only possible through the fall of man.

Adam/Eve were never promised GLORY were they? They were never Created IN CHRIST to begin with.

You see, that comment really shows what MarkV doesn't understand yet he believes he understands everything???!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/23/09


Question:
"MarkV, why would God even plan to save anyone from before the foundation of the world, and even send Jesus to die on a Cross to save no one"
Jesus died to redeem the elect that were born sinners through Adam, but were chosen from the foundation of the world. To be redeemed they need Christ atonement. Many are not even born yet, some are, and each will come to know the Truth and each will receive Christ as their Savior.
That God saved any is the miracle, He could have chosen to save none and let all go to hell for rebelling against Him. They chose to rebel, just as sure as you chose to reject the Truth.
---MarkV. on 9/22/09


Waiting on the Lord:

Lamentations 3:
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.
He sitteth alone and keepeth silence, because he hath borne it upon him.
He putteth his mouth in the dust, if so be there may be hope.
He giveth his cheek to him that smiteth him: he is filled full with reproach.
For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

38-41:
---Nana on 9/23/09


Kath 4453 -- You were "blown away" at MarkV's statement that God did not HAVE to save anyone. It's not such an odd idea, really.
Jeremiah said something similar

Lamentations 3:22-23
It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
They are new every morning. Great is His faithfullnes.

Salvation was God's plan, every detail, from before the foundation of the world. He has never lost control. As God, He COULD send everyone to Hell! But He CHOSE not to! He is faithful to keep working out his plan, day after day.
---Donna66 on 9/22/09


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All are heading to hell already, that God saves by grace anyone is a miracle, for He could have saved none.
---Mark_V on 9/20/09

This comment blows me away!

MarkV, why would God even plan to save anyone from before the foundation of the world, and even send Jesus to die on a Cross to save no one?

The LAMB slain from Before the foundation of the world MEANS God's plan of salvation was in place before the foundation of the world....and you say that God saves by grace anyone is a miracle, for He could have saved none.

Yes, being made a NEW Creation through GRACE/the CROSS is beyond human understanding. Being united with God through Christ is a Miracle! But then again Birth is a miracle isn't it!
---kathr4453 on 9/22/09


This backs up that Israel being scattered and gentiles IS NOT the same as some imply. Israel produced the SEED (Gen.3:15) which is Christ. Then Israel and gentiles become one in Christ!
---miche3754 on 9/22/09

Yes in the CHURCH Age.

Here's a mind teaser!

God blinded Israel's eyes...but nothing about God blinding Gentiles eyes anywhere in scripture...Yet MarkV wants to take verses spoken ONLY to Israel and apply them universally to Gentiles as well concerning God choosing who He wants to save?

Why do you think God blinded Israel's eyes/some branches broken off until the fulness of the Gentiles come in?

If MarkV is correct, and God saves only who He wants, why the distinction here at all?
---kathr4453 on 9/22/09


All are heading to hell already, that God saves by grace anyone is a miracle, for He could have saved none.
---Mark_V on 9/20/09

PLEASE PRINT:

Here is the problem with MarkV's statement. MarkV has a different definition of GRACE then the Bible does. MarkV seems to think GRACE means God's sovereign right to pick and choose who He wants to save.

However GRACE means through Christ....through the Cross.


Now take every verse that says GRACE and substitute it for Through the CROSS. Now compare that with Galatians 2:20 & 21. AWESOME Huh! Where does Galatians 2:20 & 21 even suggest GRACE means God picking and choosing and excluding???
---kathr4453 on 9/22/09


Isaiah 14

1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
- Kath

I just wanted to say that the second part of this verse clearly points to the gentiles(strangers) JOINING Israel.
Being grafted in (Romans ch 11). We shall become ONE in Christ and be with him forever!
Isn't that Awesome that God opened the door for salvation to all of us? Great scripture verses to Kath!
This backs up that Israel being scattered and gentiles IS NOT the same as some imply. Israel produced the SEED (Gen.3:15) which is Christ. Then Israel and gentiles become one in Christ!
---miche3754 on 9/22/09


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ABSOLUTELY we are hated and despised for the defence of the Gospel. Paul suffered unto DEATH/beheadded for the defence of the Gospel...yet MarkV states he doesn't need to defend the truth.

WOW, what would we have done without those who went before us DEFENDING Grace plus nothing.

They loved not their lives even unto death!!! They certainly weren't bragging THEY were saved and you aren't!

Philippians 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

Philippians 1:17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.
---kathr4453 on 9/22/09


He gave a promise that EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY person will proclaim Christ as lord. Do you think God was lying when he said these things?
---miche3754 on 9/21/09

Absolutely Miche....Every knee will bow and proclaim JESUS CHRIST as LORD.....not Buddah, not Mohamed, Not Allah, ...

THIS is what scripture is about, that JESUS CHRIST is LORD!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/22/09


Isaiah 14

1For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.


Well, when will this happen? Must be after God dispersed them...since they were already God's Chosen and already posessed the land.

Will it happen again? YES!!!! When? Romans 11 state it clearly. After the Gentiles have come in.....THEN God will trun again to Israel HIS ELECT, CHOOSE them again....fulfilling HIS SOVEREIGN PROMISES!

---kathr4453 on 9/21/09


It is God calling individuals, for no one lost seeks after God. They run from God. It is a fallen world, and individuals are children of wrath until God calls them, draws them and they become children of God. Not everyone will be call. God is under no obligation to save all- markv

Its not that God didn't call all, its that not all listen, but they sure hear!(see nana's post)
God is under obligation to HIS promises.(his word will not return void)
He says he sent Christ to die for the salvation of the world- "Sent to save not condemn"
God sent because he loved US all first!
He gave a promise that EVERY KNEE shall bow and EVERY person will proclaim Christ as lord. Do you think God was lying when he said these things?
---miche3754 on 9/21/09


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Esau did forfeit his place of blessing given to the firstborn- kath

amen sis!
Esau certainly had a choice, but instead of thinking about God when Jacob asked him for his birthright in exchange for food, Esau thought with his stomach. He didn't put God first!
And yes we do have a choice everyday to serve God or not.
That is why Paul said he dies to his flesh daily.
Everyday God helps those who love him and are in Christ to put heir foot on the flesh and NOT respond to the will of the flesh.
And Markv, yes God does give everyone a choice to serve him or not. It is seen through the entire Bible.

Jerry, I like your last post too!
---miche3754 on 9/20/09


//Lee: If you indeed do not believe that ALL have free will to choose to sin or not, then you, like MarkV, believe in predestination - that some were created for salvation, and some just for the fun of torturing endlessly.

I beleive that the Scripture does tell us that God created everything in the world for His good pleasure. And Yes, I am a Presbyterian, but I do believe like you do that the lake of fire will utterly destroy those whom have rejected God's offer of salvation.
---lee on 9/20/09


The whole Bible consist of God choosing individuals all through History. From Adam and Eve, to the nation of Israel over others. To the Gentiles later in history, to every individual who are called His elect. The calling of Grace begin after the fall and has continued to the present age. It is God calling individuals, for no one lost seeks after God. They run from God. It is a fallen world, and individuals are children of wrath until God calls them, draws them and they become children of God. Not everyone will be call. God is under no obligation to save all, if He was He would have saved all of them for He lacks no power with Him. All are heading to hell already, that God saves by grace anyone is a miracle, for He could have saved none.
---Mark_V on 9/20/09


Mima, Jacob wasn't chosen for salvation, but chosen to be the one who would be the line of which Jesus came through..

Job didn't come through the line of Jacob or Esau, and neither did Noah, or Enoch, or Abel...yet they were certainly saved. Hebrews 11.

We also have two other brothers....Cain and Abel? Was it a matter of God choosing only ONE for salvation...certainly not! God gave Cain a second chance to do what was right! Cain even after a second chance refused by his own choice to sacrifice as Abel, signifying obedience to what GOD ASKED! Hebrews 11.


Esau did forfeit his place of blessing given to the firstborn, as did Ruben, but not that of salvation!
---kathr4453 on 9/19/09


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Lee: If you indeed do not believe that ALL have free will to choose to sin or not, then you, like MarkV, believe in predestination - that some were created for salvation, and some just for the fun of torturing endlessly.
---jerry6593 on 9/19/09


Abraham through Jesus and beyond" I was wondering if you think Esau had a choice?
---mima on 9/18/09

It's an honest ? so I will answer it.
I believe God DID give Esau a choice. He could have had faith in God but he didn't. God saw that in his heart and that is why he rejected Esau.
Had Esau shown faith in his heart Like Jacob God would have felt differently towards him.
See, God saw that Esau valued his own needs above God's.
Good example of this is when Jesus talks about the rich man.
Remember the nature of God is to love first. God also wants to be loved in return but he doesn't make anyone love him.

Do you think when Jesus went to hell and ministered for the 3 days, Esau changed his mind and believed?
---miche3754 on 9/19/09


Lee, WHY did God choose them?
God saw that they already had faith, while the ones not chosen didn't.
Again, God's nature is LOVE, no hate.
He doesn't hate anyone unless they hate him first.
And the scripture you qouted about the first vessel being made of dishonor and the second to honor, is about all of man.
The first man is made a vessel of dishonor- from Adam on. The second is made of Honor THROUGH Christ.
This is how the potter remakes the clay.
He takes the same vessel and remakes it through Christ.
So, God can do that with anyone if they will just believe and submit to HIS will.
The ones not chosen in the OT would not submit to God's will.
---miche3754 on 9/19/09


Darlene 1--It's easy to miss these little verses. Sometimes Bible Study Groups or Sunday School Classes name themselves "The Bereans".
I enjoy this site...it never fails to send me to the Word. Blessings!
---Donna66 on 9/18/09


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Choice?

Isaiah 66:4: "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them, because when I called, none did answer, when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

Matthew 7:13-14: "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Hebrews 12:25: "... For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:"
---Nana on 9/18/09


---miche after reading this statement.
"There is not a person in the Bible that God didn't give a choice to.
Abraham through Jesus and beyond" I was wondering if you think Esau had a choice?
---mima on 9/18/09


//There is not a person in the Bible that God didn't give a choice to.

Not at all true, since God chose Abraham over other people, Issac over Ishamel, Jacob over Esau. And Pharoah got his heart harden by God.

Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
---lee on 9/18/09


If you understood that the granting of FREE WILL = FREEDOM OF CHOICE is the ultimate act of Love, and that God truly IS LOVE, then your problems would cease to exist.
---jerry6593 on 9/18/09


Amen!
There is not a person in the Bible that God didn't give a choice to.
Abraham through Jesus and beyond, they all had a choice.
It is because they have faith(believe) in God, they chose God and not their own will!
When you read the Bible you see God giving man the choice. BUt of course some want to deny and say that if this is so, then man is trying to save himself. Making a choice is not saving yourself. It is trusting and obeying a loving God that gave you the choice in the first place.
---miche3754 on 9/18/09


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Donna thank you for the information. I somehow missed that,ha ha,wonder what else I've missed. That is one good reason being on here is so good for me,it sends me to the Bible to search and study. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 9/18/09


Jerry, I don't know if you have read Scripture or not but it seems you just don't think of what you say before you say it. It is because you want to redicule me but you err everytime.

You say, "the ultimate act of love is to give free will=freedom of choice to everyone"
Do you know what happened when God gave freedom of choice to Adam? All his descendants are going to hell. All on account of freedom of choice. If it was not for God's love no one would be save.
"But God who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us" even when we were dead in trespasses and sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"
---MarkV. on 9/18/09


MarkV: "The only problems I encounter with Scripture is why God created this perticular plan and not another."

If you understood that the granting of FREE WILL = FREEDOM OF CHOICE is the ultimate act of Love, and that God truly IS LOVE, then your problems would cease to exist.
---jerry6593 on 9/18/09


Luke 4:28 (NASB)
28 And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things,

Sometimes people just do not mix well with others who are full of God's Spirit and trying to let Jesus live big inside them. It is sometimes really difficult in an atmosphere of "peace at all costs" to discern if one is being difficult when people hate you or if it is a side effect of having the same response that Jesus does.
---Mike on 9/16/09


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Jerry, thank you for your advice and I do that everyday. I would suggest the same for you. I am a forgiven sinner. I still fail many times and the reason I need Christ in my life. Without Him I would still be lost. I could not keep the whole law. I rest in Him and Him along.
The only problems I encounter with Scripture is why God created this perticular plan and not another. Why He allowed or permitted sin to enter the world. Why Adam chose to sin when he did not have a sin nature to begin with as all his descendants do. But I trust that His plan is perfect. I Trust that to some God gives the spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear. He has His reasons.
---MarkV. on 9/16/09


MarkV: "I have read all of your quotes concerning the Ten Commandments, concerning the Sabbath. They all speak of what you stand for."

I quote scripture. It steps on your toes. Take it up with God. I didn't write it. As for you personally being a sinner, I don't know whether you are or not, nor is it any of my business - that's between you and God. But I would advise you to carefully consider (with much prayer) any stance which opposes the clear teachings of scripture for the sake of adhering to man-made doctrines.

I again ask you to stop the false accusations or provide proof that I said such things.
---jerry6593 on 9/16/09


The Bereans searched the scripture to see what Paul said about Jesus was true, that Jesus was the promised Messiah.

But also searching the scripture for truth, I find myself hated by a couple on this forum because I found things they believed in simply were not there or have little support otherwise.

All too often people base their beliefs on assumptions, on things that the Bible really does not support.

And once this becomes known to them, they have reacted with a hatred and start accusing me of believing nonbiblical things even things I have not even addressed. Perhaps I should ignore them,

Pr 13:20 Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm.
---lee on 9/16/09


The easy way to become a hated person is to make a fool out of someone.

I did that with one that insisted I believe all the creation days had to be of 24 hour duration.

Now he is trying to get even with me even accusing me of topics I have not even touched upon.

He is trying to build of me a derogatory strawman so he can satisfy his lust to tear others down.
---lee on 9/16/09


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Darlene 1--

Acts 17:10-11 (King James Version)

10.And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto BEREA: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11.These [i.e. the Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
---Donna on 9/15/09


Jerry, I don't have to copy anything. I have read all of your quotes concerning the Ten Commandments, concerning the Sabbath. They all speak of what you stand for. In fact you were the only one from the SDA's who was promoting Sabbath and when someone disagreed with you, you brought judgment by suggesting they were sinners for not keeping the Ten Commandments. Maybe you don't see yourself as others see you.
Warwich has spoken about many other things and I agree on many. I don't take sides just because someone does not agree on one point. None of us agree on all points. I have given you Romans Chapter 14 to look at and you completely agnored it.
---MarkV. on 9/15/09


//It is when you call others sinners of breaking the law of the Sabbath. You stand as holier then I, when you refuse to even consider all the other sins you commit.

All too often what the Sabbath keepers will do is simply tell you that you are not a very good Christian or you are destined for the fires of hell, if you disobey any of the commandments.

Frankly, while they will acknowledge that salvation is a free gift received by grace alone, it will only be the commandment keepers that will merit eternal life with Christ. We can easily see that in their Investigative Judgment doctrine.

One of the characteristics of non-orthodox religions is that they are all too often contradictory.
---lee on 9/15/09


MarkV: "It is when you call others sinners of breaking the law of the Sabbath. You stand as holier then I, when you refuse to even consider all the other sins you commit. If you break one, you break them all but you don't want to even think of the other sins you commit."

I've lost count of the times you've made such false accusations against me. Please have the integrity to copy my exact quotes which substantiate these charges, or give an appology. How many times have I told you that you do not have the ability to know the thoughts and intents of my heart?
---jerry6593 on 9/15/09


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Lee:

I confess that my use of the word "guarantee" wasn't correct. There are NO "guarantees" in life. At least not in this sinful, fallen world.

The story in your last post was sad. I once thought that a marriage between two Christians was "guaranteed" to last until one of the spouses died. Then my best friend and his wife got divorced. The wife had a Biblical reason for divorcing. A sad ending to what was once a happy, loving couple.

God's plan for marriage and the family was "perfect" before SIN entered the world. Genesis 3. Ever since that time, death and divorce have made remarriage necessary at times. It's all because we live in an "imperfect" world now.
---Sag on 9/14/09


//Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Yes, we all agree that Jesus said that to the Jewish religious establishment.

But we must realize that Jesus was under the Old Covenant and what he often stated pertained to those under that Old Covenant.

The New Covenant, however, is a covenant unlike the Old Covenant (Hebr. 8:9) and it is not a rehash of the Old. It is a ministry of the Spirit and not a ministry of death and condemnation written in letters on stone as typified the Old Covenant. 2 Cor. 3:7f
---lee on 9/14/09


Jerry, I read Scripture just fine. I have no trouble with the Word of God. I have trouble with your interpretation of the Word. But even with that it does not bother me that you want to follow a day of worship. It is when you call others sinners of breaking the law of the Sabbath. You stand as holier then I, when you refuse to even consider all the other sins you commit. If you break one, you break them all but you don't want to even think of the other sins you commit. As if they didn't mean anything. But you want to be under the law, then you have to honor all of them. But it is your choice. To come under the New Covenant of grace, or stay there in the Old. I don't mind.
---MarkV. on 9/14/09


Sag -**However, God's plan for marriage is what we should all strive for. It is the only plan that is guaranteed to work.

Totally agree but I am often left wondering about your belief that there are any guarantees.

I once had a friend that became a missionary. He & his wife went to Nigeria for a couple of years. When they got back, it was found that the husband was infertile, so the wife who was a nurse at one of the hospitals, had herself inseminated. Crazy story, howbeit, true.

The man could not handle that, so filed for divorce. He later remarried and the last I heard from him was that he was dying from Alzheimers disease.
---lee on 9/14/09


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Lee:

*** And I doubt that you can make your case before any minister of the gospel that re-marriage should not be permitted. ***

I NEVER said that re-marriage is not permitted. People can re-marry if they wish to do so.

However, God's plan for marriage is what we should all strive for. It is the only plan that is guaranteed to work.
---Sag on 9/14/09


//One Man and One Wife -- For Life" This is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches.

Very true but more accurately it teaches that the original intent of marriage was for life. Mt. 19:8

However, we see that Jesus does acknowledge that there is such a thing as divorce as he granted it on the grounds of sexual immortality. Mt. 5:32

As to re-marriage, I do not have the statistics on that but I have seen many Christians who are their 2d marriage and have been for years. In fact, one relative has been married for over 30 years and that for both him and her, a 2d marriage.

And I doubt that you can make your case before any minister of the gospel that re-marriage should not be permitted.
---lee on 9/14/09


I don't remember Bereans in the Bible and if it's not why would anyone know who they are or what they do? What is the example set by them? No I have never been hated because I am avid about Bible study and I love researching or looking up something in the Bible and the Lexicon. In fact I found nothing but acceptance in Bible study groups and churches. I always received a warm welcome where ever I went. I can praise the Lord I never was rejected or scorned for any reason. I will say this,I always go to a place with kindness in my demeanor,knowing I am nothing except an instrument in the hand and will of God and surrender to God to use as he sees fit. I never push.
---Darlene_1 on 9/13/09


MarkV: "but Jerry does not walk his talk. As an SDA, it is his duty to cut down anyone who will not follow his traditions of still been [sic] under the law"

Mark, If you were a truthful man, you would admit that I have never asked anyone to follow MY traditions, but rather, I am the one who points to the scripture which says:

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

If you think that quoting scripture is cutting you down, then your beef is with Jesus, not me. He is the one that said those words, not me.
---jerry6593 on 9/14/09


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Lee:

*** However, as to the divorce & re-marriage issue, I would question whether you are rightfully handling the word of truth as most fundamentalist pastors are in disagreement with you. ***

Hmmm. I'm not sure how fundamentalist pastors could be in disagreement with me UNLESS they are not teaching GOD's plan for marriage:

"One Man and One Wife -- For Life"

This is EXACTLY what the Bible teaches. Jesus and Paul both taught that too.

Sin is what brought "divorce" into the world.

Remarriage is rarely, if ever, close to God's plan. Because many remarriages are quickly "breaking up", I question whether many of them are really marriages at all.




---Sag on 9/13/09


sag -**My best guess is that I'm "hated" when people get "convicted" by what I say.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

They hate me also since I interpret scripture with scripture attempting to show myself approved of God, a workman that needs not feel ashamed rightfully handling the word of truth (Ti 2:15).

However, as to the divorce & re-marriage issue, I would question whether you are rightfully handling the word of truth as most fundamentalist pastors are in disagreement with you.
---lee on 9/13/09


Adventists veiw themselves as being reformers and commissioned by God to get Christians to observe laws they believe are mandatory for the Christian walk.

However, they totally refuse to acknowledge those NT scripture that states one has the freedom to eat whatever they wish and not observe hold days (esp.Jewish sabbath) - Romans 14.

And they ignore the teachings of the early church in that Gentiles were not commanded to observe laws that were strictly Jewish in nature. Acts 15.

But to reason with them from the Scripture is rather futile as they have eyes that will not see. While a 2x4 may get the attention of a mule, a similar tool would not work on most dedicated Adventists.
---lee on 9/13/09


Sag, you are correct in your answer, and so is Jerry, but Jerry does not walk his talk. As an SDA, it is his duty to cut down anyone who will not follow his traditions of still been under the law, and makes sure everyone gets what he thinks they have coming to them. Even when I presented him with Romans 14, concerning one brother speaking against another. "One person esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike" he say again, "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother?" all have been bought by the blood of Christ.
---MarkV. on 9/13/09


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"Have you ever had the experience of being hated .... because you followed the example set by the Bereans?"
Not that I am aware of. This, I would think is something to rejoice and admire.
But of course those who would hate, does not need a reason to do so, that point has been made clear over the course of history and is prevalent to this day.
Through observation and inquiry I have found that there are those who hate without an understanding or caring as to why, and will, in their ignorance, excuse, rationalize or even try and justify that hatred.
One thing for me is clear, hatred, like anger, rest in the heart of a fool, for a wise man would recognize its futility.
---joseph on 9/13/09


The Bereans searched the scriptures. Sure, if you search the scriptures and find something that some other Christians disagree with you on, they will hate you. That's what happens here all the time.
---mugwump on 9/12/09


Yes. I think that I've been "hated" by people because . . . I have made it known that "I DO NOT believe in divorce and remarriage". There are people in my Catholic church, every church that I've visited, and probably even this blog, who "hate" my making my values known here.

Actually, my values are exactly what Jesus Christ taught. Paul's teachings reflect exactly what Jesus Christ said too:

Romans 7:1-3
Ephesians 5:21-25
1 Corinthians 7

My best guess is that I'm "hated" when people get "convicted" by what I say. Maybe they've been hurt and wounded in this area. Jesus Christ can heal their hurts.


---Sag on 9/12/09


Jerry:

Thanks for explaining why "confrontational witnessing" seems more like "pointing the finger", instead of "speaking the truth IN LOVE". While you might get many "listeners", you also create many "enemies".

In his witnessing to the Pharisees, Jesus Christ "spoke the truth IN LOVE". Matthew 19:4-6 Paul also "spoke the truth IN LOVE". 1 Corinthians 7. I firmly believe that we should follow Jesus' example in our witnessing to others.

I think that "confrontation witnessing" just pushes people away from you. And "closes" their hearts to wanting to hear about Jesus Christ. That isn't what ANY Christian should do.

---Sag on 9/12/09


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jerry6593-- It is impossible to "annoy" anybody into heaven. If they are annoyed they will simply try to avoid you. Confrontation is not MY style (I'm just not good at it) but it reaches some people.

"Confrontation" is not neccessarily
"accusation". People must recognize their sin. From what I know of Mima, he makes
people think...but quickly focuses on the truth of Jesus' Salvation. He's led many to the Lord.
---Donna66 on 9/12/09


\\ mima: "I practice confrontation witnessing." \\

In other words, you use the Name of Jesus as an excuse to make yourself obnoxious.
---Cluny on 9/12/09


mima: "I practice confrontation witnessing."

While I can appreciate your religious zeal, somehow it doesn't seem biblical to "annoy" people into heaven. The Bible says to preach the truth IN LOVE. Also, my understanding of true witnessing is telling others what Jesus has done for you - not telling them what's wrong with them. There's power in the first method, none in the second.
---jerry6593 on 9/12/09


The example set by the Bereans is found in Acts 17:11.
---Rob on 9/12/09


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I am with Donna on her statement. I have had a thorn on my flesh as Bob put it, many times, it does not hurt me so much because I knew that answering questions effect many on here. What surprised me was that many people who answer condemn and call you names, together with Scripture. They use evil together with good. Wicked with Holiness, in the spirit of Satan together with Christ. And there is no conviction from the Spirit in their lives, the reason they continue doing the same thing every day. You would figure they would repent, but they don't feel they have to anymore.
---MarkV. on 9/12/09


I practice confrontation witnessing. I actually ask people are you saved? And because of this I experienced two different reactions from people. First most people do not object. Second some people really get angry and hate my message. As for myself I do not feel I'm hated. When someone asked the locals about me they just say, this man will witnessed to you in a minute. I can hardly go out on the streets today without someone stopping and thanking me for having witnessed to them. In fact it is 7:30 and I am off to witness until about 12 o'clock today!
---mima on 9/12/09


Despised, hated,treated terribly,looked down on challenged, misunderstood, But WONDERFULLY , WONDERFULLY ,BLESSED!
---Carla3939 on 9/12/09


Yep!

Tom2: You are so right. I've heard it said that hating someone is like drinking a cup of poison and expecting it to hurt THEM.
---jerry6593 on 9/12/09


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having turned 60,and knowing the lord since I was 23 I have learned that hating anyone is worse for you than them.Hate can separate you from God,it can affect your prayers,and secondary your physical body,and mind.One of my favorite sayings now is,hate the sin,not the sinner,and that includes yourself.
---tom2 on 9/11/09


What is the example set up by the Bereans?

In IC.XC,
---Ignatius on 9/11/09


A lot of people want to give themselves credit for this.
---Cluny on 9/11/09


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