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What Is The Age Of The Earth

What is the age of the earth? How would you prove it?

Moderator - Both the Bible and scientific facts point to approximately a 10,000 years old earth.

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/12/09
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//What I (Warwick) have pointed our is that whatever length they (the creation days) were Genesis 1 says they were all the same length.

In Genesis 1? Where? Where? Where? Where? what verse(s)?

I am sure all of us that seek to know the truth would love for you to tell us where in the Bible does it say all the days of creation were the same length.

All subsequent references to a day after Genesis 1:13 are based on the earth's rotation and the sun.

ASSUMPTIONS! ASSUMPTION! ASSUMPTIONS! (like much else that you apparently believe)
---lee on 9/16/09


Jerry,
I have stated previously,I am not aware of the gap theory or its teaching.
My studies come from the original pictographs and ancient hebrew.We have choices,we can study the bible in the Hebrew text it was written in Or,we can study it in the language it has been translated into.Either way,If you choose to study in the standard English grammar,without the Hebrew,you're having to research the theology of man to explain it.When you ask God the context is still evident which is why people are still searching.God is God,he knows his Word and will confirm it's truth.If the English was precise,Everyone would be in agreement with it.
---char on 9/16/09


warwick//BTW light does not control day-length.

Yes, but even those that know how to read and think at the same time will tell you that the light from God during the 1st 3 days was different than the light from the sun during the last 3 days.

And we really do not know the duration of the light during the 1st 3 'days', do we? The light from God may have lasted zillions of earth revolutions.

There is really no reason to believe either way is there?

But we know that God is not bound by our concept of time like you would insist.

Your god must be a very little god, probably fits neatly on that ecclesiastical platter of belief you inherited from your sterile religion.
---Lee1538 on 9/16/09


//A question Lee: Using Scripture, or rules of grammar, & logic please explain why you believe the 6-days of Genesis 1:31, Exodus 9 & 11 are not all the same length.

My position is simply that the Genesis record does NOT reveal the duration of the 1st 3 periods of Creation. All subsequent days are based on the sun. I am surprised others can see that, you are determined not to.

Having been an evangelical Christian for over 40 years, an active Bible distributor for over 30, I have come to realize as Christians we are in a spiritual battle. A characteristic of a demon possessed person is they constantly find fault with & accuse Christians of being less than they really are. Need Scripture? try 2 Cor. 10:3, Rev. 12:10 .
---lee on 9/16/09


Jerry **Your problem is that you believe I am a classical evolutionist, while I am not.
Then why do you insist on a long age creation? What kind of evolutionist are you?

I do not insist on a long age creation, that is simply part of the derogatory straw man Warwick is trying to make of me. I suppose that I am his target as I let him make a fool out of himself all too many times.
---lee on 9/16/09




Lee let's cut out the nonsense.

Genesis 1:31 'God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning the sixth day.'
Verse 2:1 'Thus the heavens and the earth were completed...'

All in 6-days!

Exodus 20:9,11 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work.'
Why?
'For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them,....'

All in 6-days,

A question Lee: Using Scripture, or the rules of grammar, and logic please explain why you believe the 6-days of Genesis 1:31, Exodus 9 and 11 are not all the same length.

BTW light does not control day-length.
---Warwick on 9/16/09


1st_cliff to Warwick:

"I told you my source (maybe that's the problem?) of early chuch fathers not subscribing to a 24hr.creation "day".

Your source has been proven to be defective, e.g. by the book "Refuting Compromise". But my source is not Hugh Ross, but checking the Church Fathers themselves. Most who commented on the days explicitly said it was 24 hours.
---Ktisophilos on 9/16/09


Larry: I'm with you. I read all of char's lengthy posts, and all I came away with was "and your point is....?"

Long Age / Gap believers: Ask yourselves two questions:

(1) What is the underlying reason why I feel the need to inject long ages into biblical creation?

(2) What do I do with the clear statement from God Himself: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth." (Exo 20:11)
---jerry6593 on 9/16/09


Warwick on 9/11 Corinthians 15:26 calls death the 'last enemy.' Lee how can death be an 'enemy' if, as you say, it was always there, part of God's 'creative' process?

I have not even remotely addressed this subject and you insist that I believe in something I do not.

It is easy to see that you are just another accuser of the Lord's people as you attempt to make me into something I am not.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Your time will also come along with that spirit that is falsely accusing me.
---lee on 9/16/09


Warwick on 9/11 Corinthians 15:26 calls death the 'last enemy.' Lee how can death be an 'enemy' if, as you say, it was always there, part of God's 'creative' process?

I have not even remotely addressed this subject and you insist that I believe in something I do not.

It is easy to see that you are just another accuser of the Lord's people as you attempt to make me into something I am not.

Re 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

Your time will also come along with that spirit that is falsely accusing me.
---lee on 9/16/09




As to the questions:
What is the age of the earth?
It is not stated in the Hebrew manusripts or the Ancient pictographs.
Only that this story is of a beginning of this earth age,
and gives reference to three ages as a whole.2 Peter
*One we are called from, when the Word was in the beginning and the Word was God.Jn1:1,
1Tim 1:9[before the World began]
Rom 9:11-13
*This one we live now...and the Word became flesh.Jn1:1-14
*And The one to come...we will be changed in a moment, twinkling of an eye.
2 Pet3:10,1Th 5:2,1Cor15:52
Alpha and Omega,thru all ages,World WITHOUT END.Is 45:17,Eph 3:21
---char on 9/15/09


Warwick,
I am not aware of the gap theory although I have heard of it.I am using the Hebrew origin from the pictograph to the root letters that define the word.
The hebrew 'maya' and 'male' is only translated twice to English as 'replenish'that is in the two scriptures I gave previously.I will however look into the gap theory and see what it states.
By understanding the scripture in the Hebrew context,it proves there is absolutely no room for the theory of evolution.
I do see a world wide flood which includes the Heavens and earth,and one that just includes upon the earth under the Heavens.
But...I will continue to study.
Thanks.
---char on 9/15/09


1stCliff, Ross is a progressive creationist who does not believe the Genesis account of creation. He is not a reliable source of historical information but has a 'wheel barrow to push. Van Bebber and Taylor wrote 'Creation and Time' 'A Report on the Progressive Creationist Book by Hugh Ross.' Have a read and see that when viewed in relation to historical records, Ross has been at least economical with the truth.

What I gave you in reply to your claims was an historical list of the church fathers beliefs upon the length of the 6-days of creation. Contrary to what you claimed the majority who stated their belief believed in 24hr day creation, as my blog showed.
---Warwick on 9/16/09


Sorry larry,
I have answered the questions but I am not sure when it will post.
I do apoligize for any misspelling and incomplete sentences I have written.
As to the question,
What is the age of the earth?
With the ancient pictographs or in the original Hebrew,this answer is not given.
With science,it's always discovering and not always accurate with its claims,planets no longer being planets,carbon dating or theories,etc...and with man,we are ALL subject to error.Only God knows all truth as he stated and will teach us through His Spirit.


---char on 9/16/09


Trav: "The Hebrew word "Erets" meaning country or land, 1700 times is avoided."

It's elementary hermeneutics that the meaning of a word is determined by its *specific context*, not by its meaning in all contexts. I also note the inconsistency: "yom" means 24 hour day in the vast majority of contexts, including those most like Gen. 1.

"Points to a limited LARGE area."

The *repeated* use of universal quantifier "all"/"every" (Hebrew kol) in Genesis 7:1923 points to a global Flood. While single kol may *sometimes* be local, double kol must be universal.

Why build an Ark for a local Flood? Lot and his family just fled from the Sodom area, a local catastrophe.
---Ktisophilos on 9/16/09


Char, the gap idea is imposed upon Genesis 1:2. People unwilling to accept the Noachian world-wide flood, wanting to include geological-ages into Genesis, seized upon KJV's translation of Genesis 1:28 which has 'replenish' not the correct 'fill' Hebrew 'male.' They imagined replenish meant the earth needed restocking with humans, as batch 1 were destroyed in the imagined gap.

The primary purpose of the Gap Theory was to harmonize the Biblical chronology with their belief in the long geological-ages. Doesn't work-the geological age system is based upon uniformitarianism (current physical processes are the same as those which worked in the past) which precludes any world-wide cataclysm which the Gap Theory is based upon!

---Warwick on 9/15/09


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The earth is 13000+ yr old
---metuschelah on 9/15/09
An interesting and very definitive answer, can you explain? Are you using carbon dating of fossils? I would like to know where your research has led to concerning dinosaurs?

Char, I read your postings twice and amid all the sentence fragments, misspellings and bemusing non-sequiturs I missed your answer to the question, what is the age of the earth?
---larry on 9/15/09


With the flood of Noah the earth was also corrupt before God and filled with violence.Gen6:11
The Flood was UPON the EARTH,from UNDER the Heavens.The Heaven DID NOT PERISH.
But in 2 Peter3:5-6
...the heavens were OF OLD,and the earth standing OUT OF the water and IN the water,where by the world THAT THEN WAS,being overflowed with water PERISHED,But the Heavens and earth which are now,by the same word are kept in store...

I see a different TIME FRAME when 'the Heavens were of old,a WORLD THAT THEN was overflowed and PERISH'.In Noah's flood the heaven which are now,did not perish,only the flesh wherein the breath of life from UNDER HEAVEN.
One Flood referenced between Gen 1:1/Gen1:2,
and one being the time of Noah's.
---char on 9/15/09


Correction:
The Hebrew word for 'replenish' is 'male' or 'mala'.This word is used twice for reproduction as in Gen 1:28 and Gen 9:1.
I understand this to be the beginning of this World age as in eons.The story of the Word of God made Flesh.Jn1:1
The stars and Heavens tell the story in Ps 19 and Rom 1:18-20(all)
Because that which may be known of God hath shewed unto them,for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the World are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,His eternal power and GODHEAD,so that they are without excuse.
---char on 9/15/09


Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife, 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
---MIchael on 9/15/09


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Elohiym is plural and the third word in the scriptures.
Elohiym defines God as'Power'and'Strenght'.

Bereshiyt/Genesis is the story of many beginnings for the coming of the Messiah.It explains the filling up of the heavens and the earth.

In the Beginning God create the heavens and the earth.Gen1:1

The Hebrew tells us he fills and separates using the word 'Bara' the same word used for covenant.
*In a Covernant the meat is cut,divided and separated.
1 Sam2:29 [bara]

Gen1:2 and on continues to the story of the beginning of this eon:for the Word became flesh.

All Teaching should definitively come from God through His Spirit.1Cor 2.
We are Flesh and subject to error.
Jn1:1,1Jn2:27
---char on 9/15/09


Warwick, My source (again) "Creation and Time" by Dr. Hugh Ross a Christian and astrophysicist.
---1st_cliff on 9/15/09


The earth is 13000+ yr old
---metuschelah on 9/15/09


Some Christians are not prepared to believe the flood of Noah was world-wide, that most of the fossil record is the result of this flood. ..word 'replenish' in the KJV is a translation of the Hebrew 'male' ---Warwick on 9/14/09

Doctrinal preachies avoid that which might negate them. Why? Some have been in error 600 times. Using Hebrew language to support in pet areas...but, ignoring/avoiding the Hebrew in the scripture of the "Flood"?? The Hebrew word "Erets" meaning country or land, 1700 times is avoided. Points to a limited LARGE area. Means all did not start again from Noah. So what? That needs covered up? So what Egyptians marched through the flood time period, Assyrians, other groups leaving records.
---Trav on 9/15/09


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The hebrew word for first is 'reshon' and is not used in sequence with,2nd ,3rd,4th etc.The information is in a parallel sequence rather then in chronological order. The Seven days as one sequence from a group of three sets. The sets describe THIS AGE/EON of TIME in words such as[without form,called forth,appear,gathered together] etc...
2 Peter 3:5-6 can be understood,as a different eon/age of time.
Heavens NOW are not the same.

For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the HEAVENS WERE OF OLD,and the earth standing OUT OF the water and IN THE water:Where by the world(AGE/EONS)THAT THEN WAS,being overflowed with water,PERISHED,But the HEAVENS and the earth WHICH ARE NOW,by the same word are KEPT in store...
---char on 9/15/09


*Bereshiyt is the first word In the Hebrew manuscript,it means'In-Beginning',not the Very beginning.
*Bara is the Second word which means "fill",it does not mean create out of nothingGen2:7.
*God is Complete,Perfect,not vain,he did not form the earth in vain and tells us so in,Isaiah 45:18.
*Hayah can translate 'was'or 'became' in Gen 1:2 ...and became without form and void.
*If is was the first day,the hebrew word would be 'reshon',its not,instead it is 'echad'which means 'One'Gen1:4.
*The concrete hebrew perspective tells us the story of filling and separating.
*The Hebrew word for"replenish' is'bla'
meaning male...why? where does the seed come from?
Twice used:
Gen1:28 and 9:1 (Flood)
---char on 9/15/09


Cluny/Rosalie ... 2 Peter uses that little word "as", and also says "1000 years are as a day"

NOT at all the same as saying a day is 1000 years... it just says God's time is not the same as ours

And the Psalms are not precise either.

& I still don't get Rosalie's maths
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/15/09


And six uneven periods can also be six-days. It all depends on how you define a day.

Clearly the 1st 3 periods of Creation were NOT the same as the last 3 periods of creation because there was no sun during the first 3 days.

Anyone that can read and think at the same time should know that Exodus 20 refers to days based on the sun - which was not in existence during the first 3 'days' of creation.
---Lee1538 on 9/15/09

Amen, brother!
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


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\\ Rosalie ... "Remember 2 Peter 3:8 that one day is a thousand years"

Not if you read the full verse.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/15/09\\

It says something similar in Psalm 89/90.
---Cluny on 9/15/09


//This is confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11 where God again says He created in 6-days of the same length that His people were to work. Six-days is six-days, is six-days.

And six uneven periods can also be six-days. It all depends on how you define a day.

Clearly the 1st 3 periods of Creation were NOT the same as the last 3 periods of creation because there was no sun during the first 3 days.

Anyone that can read and think at the same time should know that Exodus 20 refers to days based on the sun - which was not in existence during the first 3 'days' of creation.
---Lee1538 on 9/15/09


Time was created for us. Genesis 1:5-defines '1 day' as the time earth takes for 1 rotation.-warwick
God did not define a clear 24 hour day until verse 14.
He did not say that in verse 5 it was a 24 hour day.
It was the 1st day for him, HIS time NOT a 1st day for us or our time.
Why don't you get that?
What you say conflicts with Gen 1:14.
V.14 was when God created "TIME" for man.
Before that, God had not created "time" for man.

Kath, again,really enjoyed your post!
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


Correct Cluny....however that was the only way I could get across that GOD has always been.

And that God is Light.

There is no such thing as darkness. Did anyone know that? It is non existant . What is darkness then? Darkness is the avbsence of LIGHT. Darkness does not mean non-existant.

If I put out every light in my house do those things IN MY HOUSE completely disappear? Of coarse not. Just because I can't see them does not mean they don't exist. Darkness then was upon my belongings. It doesn't create what is there.

God did not CREATE Light on the first day of creation...unless you say He created Himself on the first day!
---kathr4453 on 9/15/09


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Rosalie ... "Remember 2 Peter 3:8 that one day is a thousand years"

Not if you read the full verse.
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/15/09


ROSALIE, your "theory" sounds good, but, when Scripture says that, "One day is AS a thousand years, and a thousand years AS one day," it doesn't literally mean God's days are 1000 years long, it is only meaning that God is not ruled by time as we are. Notice that it says "as", not "is". It is intended to be comparative not a declaration.
---tommy3007 on 9/15/09


Rosalie 2 Peter 3:8 says '..With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day', not 'a day is a thousand years' pointing out God does not measure time like us, being eternal, outside of time.

Time was created for us. Genesis 1:5-defines '1 day' as the time earth takes for 1 rotation. God said 'And there was evening and there was morning-one day. God says He created over 6 of these, confirming this in Exodus 20:8-11 saying He created in 6-days, rested the 7th so they would work for 6-days, rest the 7th.

Interestingly the days in Hebrew are called first day, second day, third day, etc, but the 7th is 'rest.'

If a day is 1000 years Adam didn't make it to the end of day 6, but we know he did.
---Warwick on 9/15/09


Rosalie ... please clarify yuor maths.

Flood 4990 BC plus 2010 since equals 7000 years since the flood.

Then add 7000 years for the Creation .... that takes us to 14000 (or 14001)

And then there are the years between Creation & the Flood.

How do you get your 13021?
---alan on 9/15/09


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Caughtup, Genesis shows God created in stages, over 6-days. In Genesis 1:1 the earth was originally formless and empty.

Formless as it did not yet have its final form, as the Lord had yet to command 'let the dry land appear.' It seems the land appeared when God gathered the water into seas 1:10.

Empty as the Lord had yet to create any life.

Therefore as described in Genesis 1:1 it was formless and empty.

The terms tohu wa bohu-formless and empty-refer to the unfinished creation and not to any judgement or destruction. For confirmation see the Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon.
---Warwick on 9/15/09


I've seen lots of assertions, but not many proofs.

BTW Warwick, Lee is allowed to lie, since for him, the Ten Commandment Law has been obliterated.
---jerry6593 on 9/15/09


Warwick, stop trying to rationalize our human time frame with GOD's!
You have said yourself that God is outside of our time and our time was not created until Gen.1:14!
Bible says so. Ive not heard anything about a "gap" theory. All I know is what I read in the Bible and what The Holy Spirit reveals. The earth is MORE than 6000 years old (our time).
We know first hand how God does things on HIS time. why are you arguing with God about how old HIS creation is? Do you see the human ignorance in what you are saying?
We have dinosaurs, and all kinds of other things that were clearly made by God(Bible says all things made were made by HIM) And you refuse to see the Bible AND the evidence put before you. Are you that blind?
---miche3754 on 9/15/09


Its 13,021 years from the creation. The world was created 11,013 + 2009 - 1 = 13,021. The flood occurs at 4990 BC - 7,000 years =2010 + 1 = 2011 the End of the world. Remember 2 Peter 3:8 that one day is a thousand years. God created the world in 7 days or 1 week.

1 day = 1000
1 week = 7 days
7 x 1000 years = 7,000. We add 1 bec. theres no zero between New Testament and Old Testament.
---ROSALIE on 9/14/09


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Isa.45 Tells us that the earth was not created formless, it was created to be inhabited.
---caughtup on 9/14/09


\\ God is LIGHT and in Him is no darkness, YET one seems to think that God who is over a bazilliontrillion years old times a bazillion trillion years old want to think he sat in some black hole all that time until 10,000 or so years ago. \\

Since God doesn't live in time--which is in factd His creation--to try to assign an age or ANY chronology to God is a fool's errand.
---Cluny on 9/14/09


What we miss is God does not lie, nor deceive, and the Gap Theory isn't Scriptural.

Some Christians are not prepared to believe the flood of Noah was world-wide, that most of the fossil record is the result of this flood.

Using the KJV translation of Genesis 1:28 which says 'replenish' the earth, not the correct 'fill' they proposed a gap in Genesis 1:1. They believe the fossil record was created here.

Do a little research and you will see that the word 'replenish' in the KJV is a translation of the Hebrew 'male' which means fill. Replenish has come to mean 'refill', giving the opposite meaning and has allowed the nonBiblical Gap Theory.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Kathr, your post is thoughtful and stimulating. Could it be that universes have come and gone all along? You are surely right that God didn't just sit on his hands us till ten thousand years ago. Really thought-provoking. Thanks!
---mugwump on 9/14/09


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Caughtup/Miche regarding the Gap Theory the Brown, Driver and Briggs Lexicon (BDB) points out 'Bohu' is used 3 times in the OT, with a different meaning each time.
1) Genesis 1:2: to describe 'the primaeval earth,' the earth in its created condition.
2) Jeremiah 4:23: of 'earth under judgement.'
3) Isaiah 34:11: something destroyed. Here it concerns the destruction of walls.

BDB define 'Tohu' as used in Genesis 1:2 as meaning 'formlessness of primaeval earth'- It carries no suggestion of something reduced to a condition of formlessness.

In Genesis 1 tohu wa bohu is therefore not about judgement, so does not support any gap.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


What is the age of the earth?

The simple and true answer is ONLY GOD HIMSELF KNOWS.
---Rob on 9/14/09


1stCliff you do not know how the Precambrian layer was formed, nor when! Yours is belief.

You have fallen for 'uniformitarianism' the untestable belief that foces occurring today are those which formed the earth. Many evolutionary geologists accept catastrophism took place. We have seen how a small volcanic explosion at Mt St Helen's changed the landform in hours, forming large canyons quickly. Mt St Helens gave scientists the opportunity to test radiometric dating methods upon items of known age. The methods fared poorly with items a few years old giving 'dates' up to millions of years!

Consider also the Kaibab Upwarp, and poly stratic fossils. What do they 'say' about the age of sedimentary rock?
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Kathr, God predates what we call light. God does not need light to 'see.' God is before 'all things' (Col.1:15-17)and light is a 'thing' created at the beginning-Genesis 1:3.

Eternal God has not 'lived' billions of years as He lives outside of time. In His terms He has not existed even one year! Time was created for us-Genesis 1:5, Exodus 20:8-11. In eternity God did not inhabit time or space, did not live as we measure life and certainly did not need light to 'see.'

Darkness was upon the face of the deep simply because light had yet to be created.

Surely if something so momentous as the destruction of the earth had occurred it would have been mentioned, or even alluded to somewhere in Scripture. Not even a hint!
---Warwick on 9/14/09


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"Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of men.... Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:17,21) "The fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22,23)
---mugwump on 9/14/09


1stCliff you wrote 'Warwick,I have not been naughty nor silent,for some reason my answers are not getting to you! which you assume is silence!
I told you my source (maybe that's the problem?) of early chuch fathers not subscribing to a 24hr.creation "day". '

It is not that your answers are not reaching me but that they are not reaching anyone.

Maybe the moderators have censored you-very unlikely. Maybe you have never sent them???

You did not tell me your source. In fact I asked for it but you failed to supply. Conversely I gave you my source, which plainly contradicted your unsupported claims. However you can demonstrate the truth of the situation by sending them again.
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Radiometric dating methods point to an earth billions of years old. However all these methods are based upon untestable assumptions so are therefore not in anyway proven. Quite often materials of a known young age have been falsely dated at billions of years - Warwick

Write it in stone Warwick, once again you are right on.

Not until reading this blog did I really pay attention to Gen 1:2 i.e. "earth without form."
The earth without form may have been around for billions of years before the creative narrative starting in Gen 1:3. Just a thought.
---larry on 9/14/09


God is LIGHT and in Him is no darkness, YET one seems to think that God who is over a bazilliontrillion years old times a bazillion trillion years old want to think he sat in some black hole all that time until 10,000 or so years ago.

If Darkness was upon the face of the DEEP, something happened, because God is Light, God's GLORY is so bright it nearly put out Paul's eyes.

When Jesus returns to Earth there will be a day where teh whole earth will be LIGHT Night and day, and not from the sun or moon either...Zechariah 14.

Jesus prayed to God in John 17,GLORIFY me with the GLORY I had with you BEFORE the foundation of the world!

The Brightness of His GLORY says Thesselonians!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


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mug//Warwick, I have said what I believe, and you have done the same. I don't want to argue with you. God be with you.

Perhaps that should also become my policy as well, as clearly Warwick is incapable of having a civil discussion on any subject without sooner or later condemning and accusing others of advocating nonBiblical beliefs.

Some people unfortunately are really incapable of evaluating what they believe from a critical and analytical standpoint. Some hopefully will find that many of their beliefs particularly those involving the Creation are based upon ASSumptions and find themselves like the little boy who lost his pants.
---lee on 9/14/09


Gen. 1:1God created the earth. Isa.45:18 God did not create the earth (in vain)tohuw. Gen.1:2 The earth (became)hayah(without form)tohuw. None of us know how much time there is between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 the question is what made the earth become without form and void? It had to be the fall of satan. By Gen.ch.3 satan has already fallen and in the garden.
---caughtup on 9/14/09

Agreed!
There was no real way to tell time by our standards until gen.1:14.
That was when God created a way for man to measure time by man's standard.
How much time between v 1 and v 2? 2 Peter 3:8
---miche3754 on 9/14/09


I think we completely miss the point of Genesis creation. The point is:.
In the beginning ....GOD!!!!

Isaiah 42:5

Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out, he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it, he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 45:8
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together, I the LORD have created it.

# Isaiah 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
---kathr4453 on 9/14/09


//Lee, be sure to treat Warwick, and everyone else with dignity and respect. We are all members of one Body, and to hurt one is to hurt all, including yourself. God bless.

I sure wish warwick would also take that advice. However, he has constantly accused me of things that simply are false and on issues I have not even addressed.

Apparently he does not like to be rebuked for his own misconduct.
---lee on 9/14/09


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Warwick, I have said what I believe, and you have done the same. I don't want to argue with you. God be with you.
---mugwump on 9/14/09


Warwick,I have not been naughty nor silent,for some reason my answers are not getting to you! which you assume is silence!
I told you my source (maybe that's the problem?) of early chuch fathers not subscribing to a 24hr.creation "day".
---1st_cliff on 9/14/09


Warwick, I live on the edge of the "Precambrian shield" which is living tesimony of the age of the earth.
No way all these changes to earth strata took place in 6,000 years.
Come see for yourself!
---1st_cliff on 9/14/09


Lee believes he can, with impunity, reinterpret Genesis, away from any Scriptural, grammatical or logical sense, preferrring man's antiBiblical ideas, rather than God's word, or His Word.

It bothers him not, that he tramples over OT/ NT Scriptures to support his long-ages/evolutionary views! He wittingly undermines the only Biblical basis for the gospel and still believes he is saved! How can we contradict God's word on major issues (or at all) then claim salvation by faith?

The need for Jesus to come, to save us, is based upon the fact death entered the world via Adam's sin. However Lee's belief has death in the world eon's before Adam. A different gospel, no gospel at all, of Galatians 1:6-7.
---Warwick on 9/13/09


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Lee, how deceitful!

I clearly stated we can only be saved by faith in God's word (believing what it says), by admitting we are sinners desperately in need of Jesus' forgiveness. Believing this was achieved by His substitutionary death. Adam sinned bringing death into our world. 'The -the wages of sin is death' and Jesus willingly paid these 'wages' for us.

My question (knowing we cannot be saved by the 10 CC's) was whether, we can disobey them. You appear to believe we must obey 9!

I have preached in about 600 pulpits, including Baptist, Anglican, Uniting, Presbyterian, SDA, AOG, Coptic etc and have never said 'one really cannnot claim to be a true Christian unless one observes the OT sabbath.'

You have lied.
---Warwick on 9/13/09


Gen. 1:1God created the earth. Isa.45:18 God did not create the earth (in vain)tohuw. Gen.1:2 The earth (became)hayah(without form)tohuw. None of us know how much time there is between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2 the question is what made the earth become without form and void? It had to be the fall of satan. By Gen.ch.3 satan has already fallen and in the garden.
---caughtup on 9/14/09


Mugwump I asked the questions to understand your point. As you have not answered let me say what we believe about our origins, including the age of the earth, does affect our salvation.The gospel begins when Adam sinned, bringing death into the world, not with NT events.

Long-ages views are not Scripture-based but come from acceptance of the age of the earth as proposed by evolutionary scientists. This belief is directly contrary to the OT and NT. It places death of man before sin, contradicting the clear message of the basis of the gospel as explained in the NT. Scripture says death is the last enemy to be destroyed. How can it be an enemy if it has been here for millions or billions of years?
---Warwick on 9/14/09


Warwick, agreed, my answer to you was an evasive nonanswer. Thus it will stand, because in my view the blog question itself is irrelevant with regard to having a relationship with Jesus.
---mugwump on 9/13/09


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Lee, be sure to treat Warwick, and everyone else with dignity and respect. We are all members of one Body, and to hurt one is to hurt all, including yourself. God bless.
---mugwump on 9/13/09


//Warwick, it doesn't matter. Our salvation doesn't depend on how old we think the earth is.

Warwick believes that in order for one to be saved eternally, one has to have all the correct doctrinal beliefs. And he believes that he has all the correct doctrinal beliefs.

However, if you view his posts,he cannot even decide if one needs to observe the OT sabbath. He has even preached from the SDA pulpits telling them that one really cannnot claim to be a true Christian unless one observes the OT sabbath. Foolishness to say the least, why follow the spiritually blind?
---lee on 9/13/09


It is questionable whether or not the early church fathers believed in a young earth creationism.

Google 'early church fathers didnt believe in young earth creationism', and see for yourself.
---lee on 9/13/09


Mugwump with all due respect that is an evasive non-answer.
---Warwick on 9/13/09


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Now master 1stCliff don't be a naughty boy. You made incorrect claims about church fathers beliefs regarding the length of the days of creation. I challenged you to give references, which you failed to do, and I showed you were very wrong.

And what do we hear from you? An honest admission, an acceptance you were wrong? No just pregnant silence. Silence speaks volumes as they say!
---Warwick on 9/13/09


Warwick, it doesn't matter. Our salvation doesn't depend on how old we think the earth is. All the best to you.
---mugwump on 9/13/09


Warwick, I neither run nor hide from any argument or bible discussion.
When a response cannot be seen ,you cannot know my answers!
If you catch my meaning!
---1st_cliff on 9/13/09


I am sure that God will educate us when we reach Heaven.
---amand6348 on 9/13/09


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Mugwump, on what basis do you say the earth is 4.7 billion years old?

Secondly consider the Biblical genealogies which link Adam to Jesus over a span of about 4,000 years. If, as you say, the earth is 4.7 billion years old was Adam the first man? Was he created from the earth as Genesis says or were his ancestors non-human?
---Warwick on 9/12/09


The earth is about 4.7 billion years old. But no one can prove that to the satisfaction of those who want to believe otherwise. It doesn't matter anyway. Salvation in Christ Jesus doesn't depend on how old one thinks the earth is.
---mugwump on 9/12/09


Radiometric dating methods point to an earth billions of years old. However all these methods are based upon untestable assumptions so are therefore not in anyway proven. Quite often materials of a known young age have been falsely dated at billions of years.

Other methods show an earth far to young for evolution, as proposed, to have occurred. Long-ages were believed by evolutionists long before scientific methods were devised to 'prove' the great ages. 'I wouldn't have seen it if I didn't believe it.'

Scripture, via the genealogies points to an earth some thousands of years old.

I am confident that God knows the truth and man knows little.
---Warwick on 9/12/09


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