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Where Is Jesus

If the dead are allegedly in heaven with Jesus, then why did He say "I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye MAY BE also?" (John 14:3)

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/12/09
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So what goes back to God at death? You say ones breath, you mean a gust of air? Ridiculous! - lee

You are aware that when we say "breath of God" or "breath of Life" we mean the life force that God himslef puts into each person at their formation in the mother's womb. Every person has this and it is what causes us to be alive fleshly.
We don't receive the Holy Spirit until we repent and believe, just as Christ tells us to do.
Jerry, your last post was awesome brother!
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


Sorry Jerry,but Scripture tells us that man is a triune being having a body,soul and spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You really need to be sure of your own salvation.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
---lee on 10/8/09


Jerry >>we don't have a third component - an eternal immortal spirit ghost...

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

According to Scripture, man is a triune being possessing a body, soul and spirit.

And for those in Christ, there is also the Holy Spirit that dwells within the believer.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Frankly it is doubtful that you truly belong to Christ since the Holy Spirit does not dwell within you.
---Lee on 10/8/09


Lee: Yes, but it is the "Spirit of God" that is within us - not the "spirit of ourselves." Man was created from two components - body and breath of life - we don't have a third component - an eternal immortal spirit ghost ALSO injected into us. Jesus sends the Comforter to us when we invite Him in. I believe that the "breath of life" is not this eternal immortal spirit ghost, but rather the "life force" component that differentiates a living body (man or animal) from a dead one.

Though we don't agree on this subject, I would like to complement you on having one of the very few rational discussions on CN regarding it.
---jerry6593 on 10/8/09


Lee, the reason I answered Jerry the way I did about him not believing in the re-birth was because of his refusal to believe that we are born of the Spirit. The passages you gave
"1 Cor. 2:11 For who knows a person's thought except the spirt of that person, which is in him?

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself (the Holy Spirit) bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God ..."

Cannot be avoided, because how will they know they are children of God if the Spirit does not tell their spirit? They are there and the readers who are of the Spirit should know that. Skipping passages just because they cannot reconcile them is wrong.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09




Lee,those scriptures are correct but so is what g says.
The word also says we can't serve 2 masters
And if we are not serving God, we are serving the enemy.
Period.
And we are a created a living soul. dust of the earth and God's breath.
We do not receive the Holy Spirit until we repent and believe Christ.
Before this, we are influenced by the enemy and knowingly or unknowingly serve him.
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


//Lee: You even quote the scripture, but refuse to believe the metaphor:

"God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."


It is really more exactly what is referred to as an euphemism - a word used to describe something in less offensive terms.

God will bring with him those who have died.

Your god is apparently the god of the sleepy heads.
---Lee on 10/8/09


g>>We have 2. Either the Spirit of God- Holy Spirit or the spirit(s) of the enemy.
WHom do you serve?

Scripture also speaks of the spirit in man.

1 Cor. 2:9-11 for what knoweth the things of a man save the spirit of man which is in him?

Lu 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Job 32:8 There is a spirit in man and the inspration of the almighty giveth them understanding...

So whom do I serve. the God of the Bible of course in which whom His Spirit indwells me.

So what goes back to God at death? You say ones breath, you mean a gust of air? Ridiculous!

Man was created in the image of God and is body, soul & spirit. (see 1 Thes. 5:23 where it mentions all 3 entities.)
---lee on 10/7/09


Adam was formed HOW?
From the dust of the earth and God breathed into his nostrils and Adam became a living ....? SOUL!!

What is it that goes back to God? HIS Breath!
What is the Spirit?
We have 2. Either the Spirit of God- Holy Spirit or the spirit(s) of the enemy.
WHom do you serve?
You can't have two masters. You either serve God or the enemy. If you are in Christ, HE is your everlasting life. In the end, You will be raised up and given a new body just like Jesus, the first fruits
If you aren't in Christ, you are serving the enemy and will surely die.
---g on 10/6/09


Lee: You even quote the scripture, but refuse to believe the metaphor:

"God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep."

"bringing us into His very presence prior to the resurrection of the body similarly to what He did with Moses upon the death of his body?"

Who says? Where is that written? The is no reason to believe that God did not resurrect Moses - body and all - and take him to heaven. He sure seemed to have a body when the disciples saw him on the mount of transfiguration, did he not?
---jerry6593 on 10/6/09




John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life....

It is to Jesus that one has eternal life, not in the pursuit of knowledge.
****


gross misunderstanding

WHO was Christ speaking to?

I'll give you a hint go back to verse 15 or so ...you will see he was SPEAKING to the Pharisee's NOT his Disciples

otherwise your misunderstanding would contradict the very WISE in Christ who SEARCHED the scriptures daily for TRUTH not "knowledge"

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
---Rhonda on 10/5/09


Ezekiel 18:4 (HCSB) Look, every life belongs to Me ....The person who sins is the one who will die.
*****

and the authors of the HCSB version are antichrist to Gods Holy Word

purposely mistranslated Eze 18:4 to SERVE pagan philosophers NOT The Father in Heaven whose WARNING they dismissed Prov 30:5-6

...many are duped by their false ministers of light 2Corin 11:15 of a "better or more correct" translation

KJV Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die

confirmed in Eze 18:20 Psalms 16:10 Acts 2:27

Gods plain Truth says SOUL not person
---Rhonda on 10/5/09


// think you're getting there. The SOUL is the PERSON - not the spiritual essence of the person!

And what do you call the 'spiritual essence of the person'?

The problem we face is that these entities have various meanings in scripture and there is really no clear consistency.

Our difference seems to lie with your view that the soul sleeps upon death whereas orthodox Christianity simply believes that 'spiritual essence' of a person goes to be with Jesus when the body dies.

In any case, is there good reason to believe God is incapable of bringing us into His very presence prior to the resurrection of the body similarly to what He did with Moses upon the death of his body?
---lee on 10/5/09


Jerry - 2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So typical of those who think that by studying the scripture they will have eternal life.

John 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

It is to Jesus that one has eternal life, not in the pursuit of knowledge.

Yes, Christ will come again and bring with Him those who have died in Christ.

1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
---lee on 10/5/09


Lee: I think you're getting there. The SOUL is the PERSON - not the spiritual essence of the person!

"Titanic - 1522 SOULS lost in the freezing waters of the Atlantic."
---jerry6593 on 10/5/09


Ezekiel 18:4 (HCSB) Look, every life belongs to Me. The life of the father is like the life of the sonboth belong to Me. The person who sins is the one who will die.

Soul as life of the body - A more proper translation than what is found in the Old KJV.
---lee on 10/4/09


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Jerry - the Bible speaks of spirit, soul & body.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

While we know what the body is, soul & spirit are used in different ways in the Bible.

As an entity, the spirit is viewed as the sphere of God consciousness, the inner or private office of man where the work of regeneration takes place (Bible org, Lehman Strauss).

1 Cor. 2:11 For who knows a person's thought except the spirt of that person, which is in him?

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself (the Holy Spirit) bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God ...
---lee on 10/4/09


Rhonda - *Jesus TOLD dead are "really live" continue pursuing idea of this LIE that dead are alive even with no scripture to support -

Then was Jesus just another Aesop type storyteller when He told of the beggar Larazus and the rich man in hell? Luke 16:23.

Sorry but in all of His parables or teachings He used real life illustrations people could identify with.

Scripture speaks much on the topic of hell and the consciousness of those committed to that place. In Mt.8:12 of outer darkness with weeping & gnashing of teeth, Mk. 9:43fof unending fire & undying worm, etc.

It is you that has been blinded by the god of this world from seeing the glorious gospel of Christ.2 Cor. 4:4
---lee on 10/4/09


When an essential component of an entity is removed, what happens to that entity?
*****

DEATH

EXCEPT they can't SEE plain truth 2Corin 4:4

by ANOTHER Jesus 2Corin 11:4 TOLD dead are "really live" continue pursuing idea of this LIE that dead are alive even with no scripture to support - IMPLY it anyway clinging more to traditions of men Mark 7:6-9 and ignoring Gods Warning Prov 30:5-6

BLINDED to simple plain truth that dead are REALLY dead and righteous dead are WAITING resurrection 1Corin 15MOCK eternal life given ONLY to righteous ...there is no life after death for sinner

sinner SHALL NOT LIVE John 3:36 AS IF THEY NEVER WERE Obed 16 FEAR HIM-DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL Matt 10:38
---Rhonda on 10/4/09


Lee: "soul is what departs from the body WITH the breath. It is therefore not the one and the same as you would content [sic]."

First, I never said that the soul is the body. If the soul and the breath both leave the body at death, then what is the spirit and where does it go? FYI, the Bible defines the "soul" as the combination of dust of the earth (body) and breath of life (Gen 2:7). Thus, the "soul" (an entity capable of death - Eze 18:4) cannot be the body since the body is a component part of the soul. Neither can it be the breath of life, for the same reason. ONLY the breath of life leaves the body at death. When an essential component of an entity is removed, what happens to that entity?
---jerry6593 on 10/4/09


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1 Thess.5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jerry, if the soul and body are the same thing, then why did the Holy Spirit pen the above scripture if there was no distinction between the 3 entities?

.
---lee on 10/3/09


Jerry "The ancients supposed the soul, or rather the animating principle of life, to reside in the breath, that it departed from the body with the breath. Hence the Hebrew and Greek words which, when they refer to man, in our Bibles are translated "soul," are usually rendered "life" or "breath" when they refer to animals, #Ge 2:7 7:15 Nu 16:22 Job 12:10 34:14,15 Ps 104:29 Ec 12:7 Ac 17:25". ATS Bible Dictionary.

Based on this we can conclude that the soul is what departs from the body WITH the breath. It is therefore not the one and the same as you would content.

We do know that from Matthew10:28 and Hebrews 4:12, that there is a distinction between body, soul, and spirit.
---lee on 10/3/09


Jerry, that is the reason I never answered you. I knew that you would come out with what you are now asking Lee. Silly questions or really, stupid questions,
"Do you have any memory of your pre-birth life"
And your other one,
"3. The Bible says that the "breath" which you claim is "you" is common to animals. Does that make you an animal?"
Instead of bringing Scripture to proof what you say, you want to make a mockery of the word of God. I didn't answer your questions because they were stupid questions to begin with.
You should make some legit questions so that others can learn from you, I can answer some.
---MarkV. on 10/3/09


Lee: The judgement is scriptural. Thus, denying it is unscriptural.
---jerry6593 on 10/3/09


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Lee: Well, at least you did better than MarkV, but you still didn't pick one. If the biblical "breath of life" is you, complete with your personality, existing in a non-corporeal state "from the foundation of the world," and transcends physical death, then:

1. Do you have any memory of your pre-birth life as you will of your post body life?

2. If your body is needed to complete you in the resurrection, what will you be if you were cremated?

3. The Bible says that the "breath" which you claim is "you" is common to animals. Does that make you an animal?
---jerry6593 on 10/3/09


//Lee: Generally, a euphemism needs to convey the same meaning as the word for which it is being substituted. Hence sleep cannot be substituted for consciousness.

While we seems to agree that sleep is used as a euphemism for death of the body throughout scripture, it makes sense that there is no consciousness of the body.

However, the Bible speaks of us having a soul, spirit as well as a body. It was that spirit in Stephen that he asked Jesus to receive, not his breathe which would make no sense.

Sorry but death (sleep of the body) does not separate us from the Lord, death to Paul was viewed as gain, and what kind of gain is 'sleep'? Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
---lee on 10/2/09


//Why don't you pick one of the five in my MarkV test?

It is your spirit that God created before the foundation of the world that goes back to be with Him. It is the body that awaits in the grave for the resurrection in which the body and spirit are united. Again, you assertion that ones breathe goes back to God is ridiculous as what would He want with just air?

Of course, we recognize the fact that while the saints of His church believed as I do, the theory of soul sleep necessitates the SDA Investigative Judgment theory. But that view is unscriptural as it totally nullified all the promises of God found within the Scripture.
---lee on 10/2/09


Lee: Yes, and ....?

Why don't you pick one of the five in my MarkV test?
---jerry6593 on 10/2/09


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Jerry, he said I will come again and receive you unto myself because He was refering to the rapture of the saints at the end of the age when Christ returns. When He returns He will take those who are alive and the bodies of those who are dead.
---Bobby1 on 10/1/09


>>But, I'm glad to see you believe that the soul is NOT man's spirit, and that is the breath of life than comes to man and goes back to God at death.

I am not sure that is what I stated: The Bible speaks of the soul and the body being different.

Mt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. ...

And the Bible tells us there is a difference between the spirit & the soul.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It makes no sense to believe our breathe is what goes back to God.
---Lee on 10/1/09


Cynthia: "Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. the Word also says that he will come again and receive us unto himself."

Do you realize that these two statements are contradictory? If we were with Him, how could He come and receive us unto Himself?
---jerry6593 on 10/1/09


Lee: Generally, a euphemism needs to convey the same meaning as the word for which it is being substituted. Hence sleep cannot be substituted for consciousness. But, I'm glad to see that you believe that the soul is NOT man's spirit, and that is the breath of life than comes to man (and beast) and goes back to God at death. Perhaps you would care to take the MarkV test:

What exactly do you believe goes to heaven when YOU die?

1. You - your mind, with all thoughts intact, as a non-corporeal self-existent entity.

2. God's Holy Spirit.

3. The God-breathed breath of life (life force or equivalent).

4. Some newly-created spirit entity.

5. Something else.
---jerry6593 on 9/30/09


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Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. the Word also says that he will come again and receive us unto himself. In addition, on the day he steps out and calls us the dead in Christ will rise first. The thief was told by Jesus that "today you will be with me". We don't really know but God is trustworthy, so of all the things to be concerned about in living by His word what is the fear?
---Cynthia on 9/29/09


The only Bible that says that Katherine is the bible of Joseph Smith and the Latter day Saints.

The true Bible never says our souls came from heaven. The True Bible says we are a soul. Body and Spirit are a soul. Genesis 3
---Samuel on 9/29/09


The Bible says that our souls have seen Heaven and are from Heaven. God, Jesus, Satan, angels, demons, andthe Holy Spirit all cannot die because they are all either diety or spiritual. The Bible said (I forgot where) there was one man in Paradise, and another in Purgatory. The Purgatory guy begs for water, and the Paradise guy says that even though he can see the other, he cannot help him. Upon death, we all go to a "waiting area" and are recognizable to one another. Revelations, there are living souls in the altar of God in heaven. They haven't been resurrected, and yet their souls live. What the verse you gave meant is that all the dead were resurrected with him when Jesus ascended, and will do so again at the Second Coming.
---Katherine on 9/27/09


It is obvious from everything Jesus stated that both He and those whom He spoke to believed in a literal hell - a place of real conscious suffering after death. To the Adventist both the good & the bad, both the believer & unbeliever sleep in the grave, until the resurrection. And then the unbeliever as well as those in Christ that have not obeyed all the commandments go into the lake of fire where they cease to exist. But that is not what the saints of His church have believed over the centuries.
---lee on 9/27/09


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//So asleep means conscious to you, eh?

Asleep , the euphemism for death simply means unconsciousness of the body, not necessarily of the spirit.

//Where is your "spirit" mentioned here: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

The breath of LIFE implies something from God will return to Him upon death of the body. See Hebrews 4:12 that there is both soul & spirit.

//Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.

Speaks of the body which upon death ceases to breathe, the body decomposes but that which came from God goes back to God. Lk. 16.
---lee on 9/27/09


Lee: So asleep means conscious to you, eh? That is consistent with most of your other Bible interpretations. i.e., you believe th opposite of what the Bible clearly says. Where is your "spirit" mentioned here:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
---jerry6593 on 9/27/09


//Acts 7:59. The "spirit" of which you speak is the Greek "pneuma" or "breath."

It really makes no sense at all for Stephen to ask God to receive 'his breath'. If the translations of our Bibles believed the verse should have been translated as 'breath' instead of 'spirit' they would certainly have done so.

This is just another attempt to make scripture conform to a preconceived doctrinal viewpoint.

//Does the word "ASLEEP" imply consciousness or unconsciousness?

Since 'asleep' is an euphemism for death of the body, the body is no longer conscious, but we are dealing with the spirit here, not the body.
---lee on 9/26/09


//Acts 7:59. The "spirit" of which you speak is the Greek "pneuma" or "breath."

It really makes no sense at all for Stephen to ask God to receive 'his breath'. If the translators of our Bibles believed the verse should have been translated as 'breath' instead of 'spirit' they would certainly have done so.

This is just another attempt to make scripture conform to a preconceived doctrinal viewpoint.

//Does the word "ASLEEP" imply consciousness or unconsciousness?

Since 'asleep' is an euphemism for death of the body, the body is no longer conscious, but we are dealing with the spirit here, not the body.
---lee on 9/26/09


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Lee: For future reference, there is no Acts 5:59. The "spirit" of which you speak is the Greek "pneuma" or "breath." Ask yourself the following question:

Does the word "ASLEEP" imply consciousness or unconsciousness?

I can't wait to hear your answer.
---jerry6593 on 9/26/09


Jerry Acts 5:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

The Lord Jesus was asked to receive WHAT?

Obviously Stephen believed that there was a immaterial part of his being that Jesus could receive.

Again soul sleep is essential to the SDA faulty doctrine of Investigative Judgment.
---lee on 9/25/09


Jerry - ****Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, HE FELL ASLEEP. He WHAT??????

--------------------
He died or passed away.

Asleep is simply a euphemism for dying.

euphemism n

= use of inoffensive words: the use of a word or phrase that is more neutral, vague, or indirect to replace a direct, harsh, unpleasant, or offensive term.

Sorry Jerry but I will stick to the traditional view as held by the saints of His church who truly loved and walked with the Lord.

I realize that your faulty Investigative Judgment view demands the concept of soul sleep.
---lee on 9/25/09


"Obviously Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, did believe there was a part of Him that would go to be with Jesus."
---lee on 9/24/09

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, HE FELL ASLEEP.

He WHAT??????
---jerry6593 on 9/25/09


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Jerry, you said that those who don't answer are hiding something, but that too is not true. Sometimes they don't answer because what is ask is foolishness. They would be answering foolish questions given to try to trap you and that is why you put the questions for me. In your wicked mind, (while in the flesh) you device things in your mind to to trap me, so your questions are not for the glory of God, or to help you understand the things of God. You think you already know what is Truth and the others don't.
Listen Jerry, if you don't understand God planting the life of God in our souls to fit us for eternity, you have better keep reading, for there is not enough space here to argue with you as you argue about the Law and the Sabbath.
---MarkV. on 9/25/09


Acts 5:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Obviously Stephen full of the Holy Spirit, did believe there was a part of Him that would go to be with Jesus.
---lee on 9/24/09


MarkV: OK, I guess I overwhelmed you with five choices. So try to pick one from the first 3. If you can't find one you like there, we can move on to the other 2 later.

Do you think it's true that people who refuse to answer simple, direct questions generally have something to hide?
---jerry6593 on 9/24/09


Jerry, you can pick and choose as you always do with Scripture. I am not your servant but God's. Whatever answer I give you, you will try to find holes as you always do, that is why I say your intentions are not for God. That is obvious. Place me where you want, as I told Kathr, you do what is in your heart.

The fact still remain's, You still do not believe you have the Spirit as all genuine believers do. You refuse to believe this, which is ok, just as worshipping only on Saturday's as you do is ok. I really do not mind.
---MarkV. on 9/22/09


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MarkV: Nice tap dance. Now try to focus and pick one of the five possibilities for your beliefs. You do have an opinion of your own, don't you? Or would you prefer that "Jerry the Great" (I love it!) pick one for you?
---jerry6593 on 9/22/09


Jerry:

Eph 4:8-10 "Therefore it says, WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN. (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)".

1 Peter 3:18-19 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison".

When did Jesus BODILY do these things?
---Mark_Eaton on 9/21/09


Jerry, I am very happy for you that this weekend you found out that I could not read minds. You must have not been sure and needed for me to tell you. It would be terrible for me to read not only your mind but others. I would not want that burden but there is One who does,
"For I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them" Ezek. 11:5. For He also say's "It shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer, and while they are yet speaking, I will hear" Now there is a One Jerry who knows your motives and your intentions before you even write anything or say anything.
Now you want to test me. The test of Jerry the SDA. Great.
---MarkV. on 9/21/09


MarkV: "I cannot read your mind."

Good! Now maybe you'll stop inventing things I believe or think.

What exactly do you believe goes to heaven when YOU die?

1. You - your mind, with all thoughts intact, as a non-corporeal self-existent entity.

2. God's Holy Spirit.

3. The God-breathed breath of life (life force or equivalent).

4. Some newly-created spirit entity.

5. Something else.

Pick one. Without a common definition of terms, we can't have a meaningful conversation.
---jerry6593 on 9/21/09


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Where is the comma at?

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Barnes notes:It is not probable the dying thief expected his prayer would be so soon answeyed. It is rather to be supposed he looked to some future period when the Messiah would rise or would return, but Jesus told him his prayer would be answered that very day, implying, evidently, it would be immediately at death. This is the more remarkable, as those who were crucified commonly lingered for several days on the cross before they died, but Jesus foresaw that measures would be taken to hasten their death, and assured him that day he should receive an answer to his prayer and be with him in his kingdom.
---lee on 9/20/09


Jerry,
I cannot read your mind. Also I was asking Samuel since he has some form or the same doctrines as you. Also because there is many branches of denominations going around. And most of all I was asking because you were against people having the Spirit of God who are saved, because you say when genuine Christian dies, his soul and spirit dies, and the reason you believe in soul sleep, and that the Spirit does not go back to God.
So you see It was a great answer since you and Samuel might come from different sects of the SDA's.
About SDA teachings, I do have all the volumns of E.G. White. Your explanation of what you believe, you mentioned "Impartation" and I have no idea what that is.
---MarkV. on 9/20/09


if dead already in heaven than biggest lie is resurrection of the dead 1Corin 15 ...duped by god of this world through religious christianity which teaches LIE of heaven DISMISSING Gods Kingdom on Earth and resurrection at THE LAST DAY ...unlike counterfeit christianity teaching resurrection everyday when someone dies antichrist to Gods Word

Christ ONLY returns ONCE to change mortal to immortal

...1Corin 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive

when shall they be made alive?

AT HIS COMING on the LAST DAY 1Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming on the LAST DAY John 6:40, 44, 54
---Rhonda on 9/20/09


MarkV: "And is it because he [Jerry] is an SDA and they also don't believe in the new birth?"

Will you ever stop your insistence that you are able to read my mind? You apparently have no idea as to what SDAs believe. If you are that interested, you could do a little research or just simply ask. SDAs do indeed believe in the "born again" Christian conversion experience described in the Bible. What we don't believe in is the impartation of an individual spiritualistic (rather than the person of the Holy Spirit) entity "possessing" the believer. No spooks, ghosts or spirits of the dead for us, thanks.
---jerry6593 on 9/19/09


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Samuel, the SDA's teachings as you stated were not the first to come out with "conditionalism" It could have come from the RCC which still teaches it, which many other denominations have began again to except, or from all forms of religions outside Christianity as Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc.
Samuel, do you believe as Jerry does? That there is no spiritual birth in regeneration? That is what he seems to be answering against when he mentions the Spirit. And is it because he is an SDA and they also don't believe in the new birth? I say this because it is found under the conditions of the New Covenant concerning God putting His spirit in the new believer.
---MarkV. on 9/18/09


Mark E: "Was His body really in Paradise and He lied about it in:"

Great question! Here's an even better one. If the thief was with Jesus in paradise on Friday, then why did He lie to Mary on Sunday when He said:

Joh 20:17 ... Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

Here's the answer: The comma was not invented until 1500 years after the Cross. If it is placed after the word "today" rather than before it, you get the correct location of the thief. It becomes the temporal emphatic form loosely translated as:

"I'm telling you right now, one day you'll be with me in paradise!"

No other rendering lines up with Jesus' declaration to Mary.
---jerry6593 on 9/18/09


Jerry:

So what was your answer to Jesus telling the thief on the cross?

Luke 23:43 "And He said to him, Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Was His body really in Paradise and He lied about it in:

Matt. 12:40 "for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".

And he really did not commit His spirit into the hands of the Father:

Luke 23:46 "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT. Having said this, He breathed His last"

His Spirit was with the Father and His body in the grave.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/17/09


Mark E: You seem to be making my point for me. There is no need for Jesus to return for us if we are already in heaven. So, the dead are still in the grave just as it says in 1Th4:16, and NOT ALIVE in heaven as disembodied spirits per pagan mythology.
---jerry6593 on 9/17/09


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While the SDA do teach the doctrine of Conditionalism they are not alone in teaching it. Nor were they the first to do so. Martin Luther wavered on the subject but some of the early Lutherns taught it as did others before them.

You will find the story of Lazarus under Parables. Also did you ever notice that JESUS did raise a Lazarus from the dead and the leaders refused to believe just like in the story. How does a disembodied soul have a tounge?

In Genesis it states we are a soul.
---Samuel on 9/16/09


Tom2: "a human can be both alive and dead"

Perhaps you're right. Some seem to be dead from the neck up!
---jerry6593 on 9/16/09


life is not the breathe in your body.a human can be both alive and dead.life is not physical.
---tom2 on 9/15/09


A person cannot be both dead and conscious.
One is either one or the other.
---earl on 9/15/09


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The answer to this question is written in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
---Rob on 9/14/09


Both are true. Christ is in heaven at the right hand of the father and will come again to capture those on earth and our new celestial bodies which will rise in the air and ascend to the third heaven forever.
---larry on 9/14/09


Cluny, *does your bible have the story of Lazerus and the rich man?*

After "burial" he lifted up his eyes.. (literally?) Did he have X-ray vision like superman??
Can a dead man see??,talk etc...?
Can you not judge between a parable and literal?
Jesus is right , but you need to interpret His meaning!
---1st_cliff on 9/14/09


The life is made up of more than the spirit and the body, the life also has a soul. When a person dies, the spirit or breath leaves the body and goes back to God, the body and soul remain on the earth until the Lord's 2nd coming and the Trumpet of God is sounded: at that time, at his return which is called his 2nd coming, the dead will rise from their graves first, then afterward we which are alive and remain on top of the earth will be called up together to meet the Lord in the air. This is called the rapture: The dead in Christ rise up first, then we follow up to rise up in the sky after them.
---Eloy on 9/13/09


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Jerry:

Why do you persist in trying to prove your SDA doctrines?

The verse is an answer to the Disciple's question in the previous chapter:

John 13:36 "Simon Peter said to Him, Lord, where are You going? Jesus answered, Where I go, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later".

Jesus is going ahead of us, making a place for us, and then returning to take us there.

Jesus says it plainly in the next verse:

John 14:4 "And you know the way where I am going"

Read the whole Bible, not just cherry-picked passages.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/13/09


\\dead simply cease to exist they know nothing, return to the earth and their thoughts perish including thoughts of God - per Gods Word\\

Does your Bible have the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man?

According to Jesus, after the rich man's burial, "he lifted up his eyes, being in torments in hell" and had a conversation with Abraham.
'
Who's right? You or Jesus?
---Cluny on 9/13/09


Good question. Never thought of it that way before.
---amand6348 on 9/13/09


jesus was speaking to the apostles at the last supper,talking about his death, and that he was by dying preparing the waymwhich is revealed in later versus of the same chapter.
---tom2 on 9/12/09


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Where is Jesus you asked. He Is sitting on His Throne in Heaven waiting for the appointed time to call up away His Chosen saints. Those that have His Name (Jesus Christ) applied in water baptism according to Acts 2 v's 37-41 which Fulfills Matt 28 v's 19-20.
---Lawrence on 9/12/09


antichrist rapture theorists started a book series called left behind ...maybe antichrist heaven and hell theorist will start a monopoly game where passing go gets one to "heaven" and rather than jail it would be to Dante's inferno of "hell"

no verse describes life after death for sinner who SHALL NOT LIVE John 3:36 one must imply sinner has everlasting life to be "tortured" forever which MOCKS The Father in Heaven and his GIFT of eternal life for the righteous ...dead simply cease to exist they know nothing, return to the earth and their thoughts perish including thoughts of God - per Gods Word
---Rhonda on 9/12/09


Jesus is in heaven. No one else goes till the resurrection, to the best of my understanding.
---mugwump on 9/12/09


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