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God's Covenants With Man

How many covenants did God make with mankind?

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 ---kandi on 9/15/09
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Wow Kath, That was awesome my sister!
And trav, where did you get the idea that it was a role swap?

God said that he would take Israel back if she would repent. And he hasn't changed his mind. He will take Israel back through Christ.
It is through Christ that the two branches become one.
See Kath's post? she has got it!

Trav, you should really forget the race thing because after Christ came, the way was opened for "Whosoever will" to be saved if the Go to Christ and receive him. As the Word says- "The veil was rent in twain" Matt 27:51
Now we may come boldly before the throne!Heb. 4:16
---miche3754 on 10/14/09


Do not forget that Esau was Jacobs twin brother. He is the "not all Israel is Israel", ...Trav on 10/12/09
WRONG: God renamed Jacob ISRAEL AFTER he received Blessing.. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: ---kathr4453 on 10/14/09

I understand your understanding.
Esau...has/is fulfilling prophecy also. As Imposter calling himself Israel. Herod of line of Edomites...as were many more...probably still are. Possibly in Congress.
Issac...not Ishmael. Who was Issac's seed. Jacob and Esau. Ya think....Esau disappeared? Had in my mind. I'd forgot about him for years.
49.Genesis 27:22
Jacob went near unto Isaac his father, he felt him, and said, voice is Jacob's voice, but hands are hands of Esau.
---Trav on 10/14/09


Trav, your explanation makes more sense now. You do have to explain a little better just as you did on your last post. This way when others answer they can answer to your point and not bring a whole lot of stuff all together and confuse the one passage talked about.
---MarkV. on 10/14/09


Do not forget that Esau was Jacobs twin brother. He is the "not all Israel is Israel", ...Trav on 10/12/09


WRONG: God renamed Jacob ISRAEL AFTER he received the Blessing ..not before!

Israel's SERVICE:
Romans 9:4Who are Israelites, to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises, 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, ....

SALVATION:
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/09


If this is true, then WHY does Paul distiguish between the 2? And God clearly still considers Israel as Israel and gentiles as gentiles.
There is also the grafting of the wild branch(gentiles)
---miche3754 on 10/13/09

Miche, thing I like about you....you do not give up until it makes sense. Share that also.
GOD cannot break his own laws. Wouldn't be a GOD.
Judah...sinned even worse than the other houses. But, he didn't divorce Judah at the time.
Israel, lost her married name...Israel. But, as a widow could get it back. Heb 8:8.
Grafting of same/natural/grape vine...is the 10 nations of Old Israel (wild grape)back. Even though Judah still does not get it. Role swap basically. Look at all the Christians.
---Trav on 10/14/09




Trav, every passage has a meaning God wants to convey to us. We are not to put our own meaning or speculate. Each passage has a context. And when you say Israel and don't give a passage or a context, it is hard to tell which Israel you are talking about. The nation, the elect, the devorced ones, the house of Judah, the whole house of Israel, etc. We find which Israel it is speaking of by reading the context of the message for which it was spoken for. That was my point. I am not arguing there is no Israel, that is why I needed to know what you were talking about and you gave Heb. 8:10 and here God was talking about those whom He was married to. What that Old Covenant was and what the New one is.
---MarkV. on 10/13/09


Trav, thank you for explaining what Israel you were talking about. That makes a lot of sense now. It is when you answer you do not give the point. You want others to read your mind. Let me say I cannot read minds. Hebrew 8:10, verse 9 "I disregarded them" comes from the verse in Jer. 31:32, says, "though I was a husband to them" The New Testament writer is quoting from the LXX, which uses a variant reading that does not essentially change the meaning. Verse 10, this New Covenant (for those whom He disregared) ( those He was married to) had receive before a Covenant of Law which was primarily external, but the New Covenant is internal, mind..heart (Eze. 36:26,27).
---MarkV. on 10/13/09


It does. Use original words always for clarity. The nations of Israel were...divorced. In esscence Made GOYIM, gentiles we've been indoctrinated by the rc's who misused the word as well. They attributed the word to mean "one not of Rome". They thought they only constituted Israel. We know how they love to hold the reins/noose today....they were worse then.
---Trav on 10/12/09

If this is true, then WHY does Paul distiguish between the 2? And God clearly still considers Israel as Israel and gentiles as gentiles.
There is also the grafting of the wild branch(gentiles) and the natural branch (Israel). Obviously God does see different branches being grafted into Jesus the vine.
---miche3754 on 10/13/09


Trav, I wish you would explain a little further what you are saying.
You are not suggesting that when people read the Bible they should not consider the context ....---MarkV. on 10/10/09

Yes, understand/see context is Israel, in part divorced, mixed among the nations.
Freed from the first marriage by death. I am saying Israel is still found...mixed throughout the world. And Judah. Judah makes up one twelveth part. I seek all Israel myself to tell them the good news. This New Covenant cleans you come home. Mark do you really believe Heb 8:10? Does it apply?
---Trav on 10/12/09


Absolutely true Miche. However there are many false doctrines who use gentile in a derogatory way, much like the Mormons. Anyone who is not Mormon is a Gentile. They think THEY are the true Israel.

Calvin Covenant Theology has the same error. They think there are only two covenants...one of works, one of Grace. Those of works are gentiles, those of Grace are the true Israel.


MarkV does understand you. He wants to blame it on his lack of education.

For someone who already stated he knows it all and he is right on everything...he's playing a game here pretending he doesn't understand!

Don't fall for it....He just wants to use it as an opportunity to promote CC!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/09




When you say, it was written for Israel, which Israel are you talking about?

Not all Israel is Israel.
---MarkV. on 10/10/09

All Israel equals= 2Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin,
Dan, and Naphtali, Gad,Asher Joseph. Add the two offspring of Joseph. Manasseh and Ephraim. Why do you dicard/deny them? GOD didn't.

For churchianity it is just jews/Judah. Which shows that it is still hidden by GOD from.....even though they hold same scripture in their hands.

Do not forget that Esau was Jacobs twin brother. He is the "not all Israel is Israel", bloodline. Read his "yoke" prophecy.
GOD hated/hates Esau.
---Trav on 10/12/09


That verse I gave God clearly destinguishes Israel from Gentiles. Israel is scattered yes, but Gentiles are still classed different from Israel.
---miche3754 on 10/12/09

It does. Use original words always for clarity. The nations of Israel were...divorced. In esscence Made GOYIM, gentiles we've been indoctrinated by the rc's who misused the word as well. They attributed the word to mean "one not of Rome". They thought they only constituted Israel. We know how they love to hold the reins/noose today....they were worse then.
---Trav on 10/12/09


This can be found in scripture and witnessed by marriage laws. Is-ra-el in this instance is Judah-1/2 Benj. They had not lost the married name. By divorce the other nations had. Gentiles means ethno's or nations. Majority of uses pertains to Israel.
Whether we are or are not we should not change the story...an actually cannot be changed. Regardless of who we are we fall under GOD. I pray for whatever mercy/blessings he will give....bet you do too. I would rather know truth than live a live though.
---Trav on 10/8/09

That verse I gave God clearly destinguishes Israel from Gentiles. Israel is scattered yes, but Gentiles are still classed different from Israel.
---miche3754 on 10/12/09


Trav, I wish you would explain a little further what you are saying. Or what is your argument about. You are not suggesting that when people read the Bible they should not consider the context at all and just read with the understanding that the book is for Israel only and matter not who anyone else is? Trav, I am not very educated as some others and need a little help here with your answer.
When you say, it was written for Israel, which Israel are you talking about? Not all Israel is Israel. Why don't you explain a little better so that I can understand what your point is. What anit-christ are you talking about? Explain what you are saying and I will not answer until you are finished.
---MarkV. on 10/10/09


Trav, again you mention Israel and remember not all Israel is Israel. ...So the context will give us a clue to which it is speaking about. That was my point. To interpret any passage we have to check the context.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09

Context: book was written by Israel, too Israel....found for Israel to the end of Revelations.

Now you don't know who Israel is, or where she is.....but, will believe an anti-Christ professing Jew is chosen or all Israel. If your context is wrong....what does this effect? Look around at the confusion for an answer.
The majority of Churches believe this and send billions to a people that may or may not be in scripture.
I was brought up no different.....but, no better now.
---Trav on 10/9/09


COVENANT of GRACE ?????!!!>



You will only see the words Covenant and Grace in one verse in scripture:

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

There was NO covenant of Grace in the OT, for the SON OF GOD had not yet come/and gone to the cross, no blood to sanctify!!! Only animal blood Hello!, and no Holy Spirit indwelling believers.

99.44% of those who use the term are Covenant Calvinists. The rest are mis-informed.

Ephesians 3:2 Dispensation of GRACE!
---kathr4453 on 10/9/09


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God works with man through COVENANTS ONLY. The Sovereignty of GOD can be found in His Covenants.

Therefore God cannot just do anything He wants when He wants, He is bound by his oath of Covenants..as clearly stated in Hebrews saying :I swore by myself
---kathr4453 on 10/9/09


Trav, again you mention Israel and remember not all Israel is Israel. What I was pointing to is that you will not know to whom, (which Israel) the context is talking about until you read at least the first ten verses before the passage that speaks of Israel, and the at least the next ten after to make sure to which the context is refering to. Is it the nation of Israel? Is it the line of Juda? Is it only the elect of Israel? Is it to the one's who integrated with the Judean's and call themselves Israelites? So the context will give us a clue to which it is speaking about. That was my point. To interpret any passage we have to check the context.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09


Then what about this verse where God clearly defines Isreal seperate from Gentiles?
Trav has said that Israel is hidden among Gentiles. This verse in the Bible says different.
---miche3754 on 10/8/09

This can be found in scripture and witnessed by marriage laws. Is-ra-el in this instance is Judah-1/2 Benj. They had not lost the married name. By divorce the other nations had. Gentiles means ethno's or nations. Majority of uses pertains to Israel.
Whether we are or are not we should not change the story...an actually cannot be changed. Regardless of who we are we fall under GOD. I pray for whatever mercy/blessings he will give....bet you do too. I would rather know truth than live a live though.
---Trav on 10/8/09


Trav, ... Another thing to remember is that on each context we are to check what is meant by Israel. Each has its own context too.
---MarkV. on 10/7/09

MarkV, Well I had to prove it out myself over several years. It became simple after ALL the prophets witnessed. The Context of the Bible you hold....is Israel. This is who this book was written by, too, for and ends with.
Whether we are or we are not does not change this. Forcing contextual cracks when meaning is vague to your doctrine....is New Doctrine. Apply this one thing. Computer concordance, For ever, everlasting.
---Trav on 10/8/09


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There are 7 major Covenants in the Bible.



Four of the covenants are unconditional , regardless of Israel's obedience or disobedience, God still will fulfill these covenants with the nation of Israel.

The Adamic Covenant, (Genesis 3:15).

Covenant with Noah - Rainbow - unconditional

Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 12:1-3, 6-7, 13:14-17, 15, 17:1-14, 22:15-18).

Palestinian Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10). amplifies the land aspect which was detailed in the Abrahamic covenant.

Mosaic Covenant (Deuteronomy 11, et al). was a conditional covenant.

Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7:8-16).

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The New Covenant is a covenant made with the nation of Israel
---kathr4453 on 10/8/09


"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Romans 11:25)
Then what about this verse where God clearly defines Isreal seperate from Gentiles?
Trav has said that Israel is hidden among Gentiles. This verse in the Bible says different.
It says that the way is open now to gentiles and that God has temporarily blinded Israel BUT that he will eventually lift that blindness and graft them back in as well.
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


Trav, when the Bible speaks of Israelites we do have to read the context to know to what Israelites its talking about. First we have the Hebrews who descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob (Israel). They became the divinely chosen line through which the Messiah-Redeemer would eventually come. Also, the twelve tribes became a nation at Sinai. Then the Iraelite (nation) conquered Palestine and settled in it under covenant to serve the Lord. After the date of 931 B.C. the Northern Kingdom of ten tribes went its separate way. Judah continued until the fall of Jerusalem in 586 B.C.
Elements of the twelve tribes had become integrated with the Judeans or "Jews." The mixed Judeans in turn adopted the broader term of (Israelites).
---MarkV. on 10/8/09


Trav, I believe you are mistaken and here is why, people in the old Testament were saved the same way they are saved now. All people not just Israel. Grace through faith has been since the fall. There was no Israel at the time. The very minute man fail, God came with the covenant of grace. That is something you do not include. That has been the same Covenant of Grace all through history, in the Old looking for its fulfillment and in the New the fulfilled had already come. Yes, it is important in every passage to read the context as to whom is God or the writer talking to. Another thing to remember is that on each context we are to check what is meant by Israel. Each has its own context too.
---MarkV. on 10/7/09


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Lee you wrote 'But I can see you have not mentioned a single verse in scripture that specifies the duration of any of the creation days. You were not there during the creation periods and all you are left with is what you want to believe.'

Oh but I have Lee. However, as is obvious you are forced to ignore Scriptural evidence because of your a priori, nonBiblical starting point. You are what I call a convenient Christian. You reject or ignore any OT or NT Scripture which is not convenient. Only accepting Scripture which is convenient for you, that which fits with your personal nonBiblical interpretations.
---Warwick on 10/7/09


//Lee, as I said I spoke to 'scientists', not students.

People have often asked me to justify 24hr creation-days from Scripture, and I have done so, as I have done for you. They understood.

Scientists in general know better than to debate with religious people who have refuse to apply any analysis to what they believe.

But I can see you have not mentioned a single verse in scripture that specifies the duration of any of the creation days. You were not there during the creation periods and all you are left with is what you want to believe.
---lee on 10/7/09


This Covenant runs from the fall to the present, it is the "Covenant of Grace" Which is an agreement between God and a sinner in which God promises salvation through faith, .... ---MarkV. on 10/6/09

The point I pointing too is that it seems pretty important to know who GOD is speaking too. Right?
The N.Covenant is too who again.....Heb 8:8, Jer 31:31 ?

This is the largest reason there are so many denom's preaching un-truths. They cannot make the scripture mesh together because they exclude the main participants. You did so yourself. You've been taught....jews are all Israel.
The prophets don't do this....why do you and others? Because we have been "Recipients of False Teachings".
---Trav on 10/6/09


Trav, I believe in "Convenantal" though there were about six covenants in history, there is really only two that most theologians follow through history. The first is the Covenant that God made with Adam and Eve when they were "sinless". "A Covenant of works" obey and have eternal life, disobey and get death. We know how that went. Immediately God made a New Covenant. This Covenant runs from the fall to the present, it is the "Covenant of Grace" Which is an agreement between God and a sinner in which God promises salvation through faith, and the sinner promises a life of faith and obedience. Though some covenants were a little different, they were by grace through faith after the fall.
---MarkV. on 10/6/09


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Lee, as I said I spoke to 'scientists', not students.

People have often asked me to justify 24hr creation-days from Scripture, and I have done so, as I have done for you. They understood.

I have also asked questioners to supply Biblical evidence to support non 24hr days, and as with you, silence!

'You can only state that since the days after the creation of the sun were 24 hours in duration, we can only ASSUME the earlier 'days' were also 24 hours.'

Not so, Genesis 1:3-5 defines one day, (as the reference you supplied shows) and in Exodus God says He created in six of these days. What length (in whole hours) was a day for the Israelites?

BTW where does Scripture say days four on were 24hrs?
---Warwick on 10/6/09


Trav, my explanation was from my studies concerning what New and Old Testament really means (covenants) which was my main point not what a Jew means. Bobby 1 reminds us of defining the terms I suppose. So we can get into who is a Jew and who is an Israelite. Jew as used in the Bible, the term "Jew" in the pre-exilic era referred to citizens of the southern state of Judah. (Neh. 1:2, Jer. 32:12, 40:11). In the post-exilic times the name denoted the people of Israel in contrast to the Gentiles (Esth. 9:15-19, Dan. 3:8, Zech 8:23, John 4:9, Acts 14:1). In the New Testament the term applied to anyone who was Jewish by both nationality and religion. In a few cases Jewish Christians were also called Jews (John 8:31, Gal. 2:13).
---MarkV. on 10/5/09


//My first talk was on the foundational nature of Genesis ch.'s 1-3 and its relationship to the rest of Scripture.

While it is certainly to your credit to address college students, if someone in that audience was more critical and had asked where in Genesis does it state all the creation days were of 24 hour duration, you would be in the same situation you are now, namely up the creek without a paddle.

Obviously you need to realize that this has to be one of the greatest weaknesses of the Young Earth Creation theory. You can only state that since the days after the creation of the sun were 24 hours in duration, we can only ASSUME the earlier 'days' were also 24 hours.
---lee on 10/5/09


10His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark, sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.

11Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.

Such patience and love between the two barking dogs. Such pride...preached here,there hundreds of times. Complimented,praised by the crowds. And show all the wisdom accrued which is naught.
Hand in offering plate when it comes in I doubt not. L & W as applies.
---Trav on 10/5/09


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Old Testament or Old Covenant was given at Mt. Sinai and concerns the Jewish race, The New Testament "Covenant" was made in the upper room and concerns believers. This was sealed by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 10/5/09

MarkV, the one thing I really like about you is you study and look. I'm just pointing now... to a scripturally witnessed/found error in your mindset. We've all been taught this error. It has to be un-learned. Hard to do. I know.
Above you stated that the Old Covenant was to the Judean race.....There are Twelve other nations that make up Israel. They are the New Covenant too. To dismiss is to misunderstand the N.T. and the O.T.
---Trav on 10/5/09


The Old Testament and the New Testament:
The word "testament" means "covenant," and by this terms God designated the relation that existed between Himself and His people. "Testament" is used thirteen times in the Authorized version, but is translated "Covenant" in the Revised version.
Old Testament or Old Covenant was given at Mt. Sinai and concerns the Jewish race, The New Testament "Covenant" was made in the upper room and concerns believers. This was sealed by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 10/5/09


Lee, wrong again. My first talk was on the foundational nature of Genesis ch.'s 1-3 and its relationship to the rest of Scripture. I covered creation day-length of 24hrs as my PowerPoint slides attest, from Genesis, Exodus, Matthew, and Mark!

They understood we live a 7-day-week because God created in 6, rested the 7th. As per Genesis 1 and confirmed in Exodus.

My second talk was 'Evolution: Fact or Fable? They complimented me on my broad scientific knowledge and the balanced way I handled this.

In his early years Augustine took a figurative view of Genesis 1. However in later in life said he should have taken it literally. I do not believe he ever espoused your illogical idea.
---Warwick on 10/5/09


//At a Presbyterian church near a major university, with many university scientists present, question time was 1hr+. Afterwards the pastor said all the comments he received were very positive.

Bet you never addressed the 6 day thing or were able to point to a single verse in Genesis that mentioned anything about the duration of the creation 'days'.

As to light source, the light from God during the first 3 periods of creation could have lasted for eons and zillions of rotations of the earth. There is no rationale to have anyone beleive otherwise.

However, I tend to agree with Augustine that God did not operate in accordance to our concept of time. Too bad you really do not have the gray matter to comprehend that.
---lee on 10/4/09


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Lee, considering your beliefs, it appears evangelicals are those half-way between Bible-believing, and liberal.

Having spoken in churches, hundreds of times in a number of countries, I find your innacurate statements amusing. I always hosted question time afterwards and had little trouble giving the reasons for what I believe. At a Presbyterian church near a major university, with many university scientists present, question time was 1hr+. Afterwards the pastor said all the comments he received were very positive. You talk theory, I talk experience.

The 24hr day view fits with all of Scripture. Your vague notions don't.

Only Scripture, understood by the Holy Spirit's illumination, interprets Scripture-as Scripture says.
---Warwick on 10/4/09


Lee you fail to understand the light-source does not control day-length. As you know Genesis 1:3-5 defines 'one day' and God says He created in 6 of these days. Exodus 20:8-11 clearly shows all 6 were same-length earth-rotation days. You imagine our Creator God cannot light the earth without the sun He created! Such faith!

I feel no need to defend my intellect and don't mind your rudeness. We live in a rude world!

I do not believe you are dense, but appear so, being forced to defend the indefensible, because of your bias towards worldly thinking. Many would agree with you but remember Scripture is not about democracy, as Truth is not decided by numbers. Fortunately.
---Warwick on 10/4/09


//I have no problem as I am not reading Scripture with worldy glasses as you.

Being of an evangelical background I try to view scripture from as many different angles as possible. In doing that I am better prepared to "make a defense to anyone who asks [me]for a reason for the hope that is in [me]". 1Peter 3:15.

You on the other hand when challenged by a non-Christian would find your pants on the floor as you cannot find a single verse in scripture that states the creation days were all 24 hours in duration. Assumptions!

And yes, as far as doctrines is concerned, my authority is scripture as well but I seeks earnestly the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit when I study the Word.
---lee on 10/4/09


//Without any support from Scripture, grammar, or logic you claim the first 3 creation-days were of unknown length.

What you fail to understand is the fact that the Bible does not tell us the duration of the creation days. While we may logically assume that the last 3 days were of 24 hour duration because the sun was created on the 4th day, there is virtually nothing in the record that tells us anything about the duration of the first 3 days.

And that is why I view you as dense since I have tried all kinds of ways to convince you of this simple fact.

Suggest you go thru the Genesis record again, and view only the first 3 'days' then tell me which of them addressing the duration.
---lee on 10/4/09


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Lee I have no problem as I am not reading Scripture with worldly 'glasses' as you. Scripture is my authority, yours is man.

We are all biassed but you need to decide which is the best bias to be biassed with. Should we be biassed towards God or man?

As you admit, you provided the Holman Bible Dictionary reference which says Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day. You are now arguing against your own source!

In Exodus 20:8-11 God lead them to believe He created in 6-days so they were to work 6-days. You claim the first 3 were of different length to the second 3, but God failed to tell them this. If your lonnnnnng-days belief is true they never lived lonnnnng enough to have a Sabbath rest!

And you call me dense!
---Warwick on 10/4/09


Professor James Barr, (Chair of Hebrew, Oxford university, wrote.

'Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1-11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that:

a) Creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience.'

This is confirmation from a 'hostile witness', because Barr is a liberal who does not believe Genesis is history! But He admits whoever wrote it meant the days of Genesis 1 to be taken as 24hr days.

If a liberal can see what Genesis was meant to say, why can't those who claim to be Bible-believing Christians, see likewise?
---Warwick on 10/4/09


//Lee you provided the Holman Bible Dictionary definition which says Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day. True?

True, however, they do not address the issue as to where in Genesis it states the duration of the first 3 days.

And that is your problem as you cannot find anything in the entire Bible that states that duration of the early creation days.

Furthermore, you seem too dense to understand that my position is simply that the record does not state anything about the duration of the creation days. You seem only to cast negative comments about what I may or may not believe. And that is why I have an accurate but low opinion of what you post.
---lee on 10/4/09


Lee you provided the Holman Bible Dictionary definition which says Genesis 1:5 defines a 24hr day. True?

Without any support from Scripture, grammar, or logic you claim the first 3 creation-days were of unknown length. You make God appear foolish (unable to communicate) and an ogre for telling the Israelites they would be executed if they worked the 7th. Because, if you are correct (fortunately you are not) the Israelites could not have known when the 7th day was, and would have been executed. See Exodus 20:8-11.

You are forced into such antiBiblical irrationality by your nonBiblical long-ages bias.

Trust God not man!
---Warwick on 10/4/09


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//Au contraire Lee you argue against or ignore any Scripture which contradicts your man-made beliefs. I have only shown what Scripture says.

Au contraire you have not at all shown any scripture that denies what I have stated, namely that the initial 'days' of creation had to be of 24 hour duration.

Let me try a different approach.

Examine Genesis 1:1-5, the 1st 'day',

Is there anything in these verses that speaks of duration of the 1st 'day'?

Then do the same for Genesis 1:6-8 for 'day 2', and again for 'day 3' Genesis 1:9-13.

If you find anything there that speaks of the duration of these 'days' I will send you money.

If you can't I suggest you be done with your idiotic contention.
---lee on 10/3/09


Basically, whether it be to Adam in the garden, or to the Hebrew Nation (starting with Abraham and continuing through the gospel dispensation) there is really only one covenant:

Obey God's Commandments and live (with multiple blessings) - or - disobey and die (with an attendant curse). It is our free will choice to make.

The Old and New Covenants were the same "contract" written in two different places - on stone or in the heart.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
---jerry6593 on 10/3/09


Kandi, the Bible speaks of many covenants in history, Preflood Noahic Gen. 6:18, a post-flood Noahic covenant Gen. 9:8-17, an Abrhamic covenant Gen. 15:8,18, a Mosaic covenant Exodus 6:6-8, a Davidic covenant Ps. 89:3,4, 26-37, and a new covenant Jer. 31:31-34. In respect to this it is proper to speak of a covenant of grace rather than specific covenants. There is basic differences between covenants through history, yet human beings have been called by grace, justified by faith, and adopted into the family of God by grace ever since the fall. That is why its accurate to group these individual covenants under the more general heading of the Covenant of Grace. One covenant more graciously then the other. But all under Grace after the fall of Adam.
---MarkV. on 10/3/09


Au contraire Lee you argue against or ignore any Scripture which contradicts your man-made beliefs. I have only shown what Scripture says.
---Warwick on 10/3/09


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//Lee even if I did not point out that your evasive compromises undermine God's word, it would still be so. An atheist with a Bible would know you do.

I always try hard to stick to the teachings of the church and hold tightly to its basic doctrines.

You, however, insist that your interpretations are the only ones that are correct and anyone else has to be compromising the gospel.

Frankly, it appears you just love to be decisive and have problems you need to seek consulting on.

You contribute few if any truths to these discussions.
---lee on 10/2/09


Lee I have been away but now I am back.

Lee even if I did not point out that your evasive compromises undermine God's word, it would still be so. An atheist with a Bible would know you do.

But don't feel alone as you have many friends, who duck and weave throughout Scripture, believing only what they like. Just as Scripture says!
---Warwick on 10/1/09


mugrump -**Yikes! Some of you think I belong to Christ and some of you don't. Could you take a vote! :-)

You got my vote, however to really qualify, you must have all the right beliefs according to Warwicks' interpretations of the Bible, otherwise you will be found guilty of undermining the gospel. :)
---lee on 9/27/09


Mugwump maybe you have a short-term memory problem, as you must know I have read many of your blogs, and replied to them.

You do seem to be a man of faith but then some of the things you write appear to lack that same degree of faith. Maybe you are just having a little fun, doing some 'stirring.'
---Warwick on 9/26/09


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Warwick, perhaps you don't know what I believe because you have not read my posts. Jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification. He is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. In the end the whole creation will be reconciled to God, and God will be All in all. That's what scripture says and that's what I believe. :-) God bless you.
---mugwump on 9/26/09


Mugwump me boy. Easy to see why people wonder what you actually believe!
---Warwick on 9/26/09


Yikes! Some of you think I belong to Christ and some of you don't. Could you take a vote! :-)
---mugwump on 9/25/09


It seems that only covenant in Bible pertaining to all humanity is that which God made with Noah. All other biblical covenants are between God and Israel.
---mugwump on 9/15/09

Correctamundo mostly, mug. Additionally, most denom's, me included have been falsely taught that Judah= is all Israel.

Logic alone could/should/would/does tell us same group of descendants from Noah are Israel.
Again denom's teach a schoolchild's fairy tale/non provable/non witnessed in scripture global "erets" flood.
The covenants of blessing never were annulled...nor of punishment. Sooo...logically speaking....who got them.
Well yeah, the same people. Blessing to the whole world....and has been.
---Trav on 9/25/09


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mugwash...it would seem then that you dont belong to Christ who came and died for you and me and the world...because He was a Jew ---jimbo on 9/16/09

If mug is wrong....then all the prophets are wrong.
There are no prophets backing up your statements. Not one.

Not only the Judeans had the law...but the 12 other nations of Israel as well. Denom's forgot to tell us about them.
Only ones in scripture that GOD gave the laws too. Only ones in New Covenant that have them written by GOD into their hearts and minds.
Whether you or me are one of these are not doesn't/cannot change what GOD does or will do. He is GOD. He can do whatever he wants to. I honor him either way. I will accept whatever he wants to do.
---Trav on 9/25/09


Manny, again read what I said, I did not say they were saved by faith along, I said they were saved by grace along," That is grace through faith.
Not on account of faith but on account of grace. Justification is by faith along, not by anything we do. True genuine faith produces good works. For Scripture says, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (and here is the answer) For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10. God not only created us in Christ for good works, but prepared it beforehand
---MarkV. on 9/24/09


We humans sometimes break are covenant with God. God dose not forget his promises and he dont forget what we promis him that is to love him with are whole heart and keep his commandments and to love one another as christ loved us even are enamys.
---Teresa on 9/23/09


MarkV>>"...when man is told that they are saved by Grace along."

Just to clear it up... the phrase "faith alone saves" is not in the bible. More so, it is against what is in the bible. "...FAITH, if it hath not works, is dead, being ALONE." (Jam.2:17)

Eph.2:8 states: by grace we are saved through faith. We need faith to be saved... it's the start... but it is not enough. Salvation is a process and as we grow as a christian, there are a lot we need to add to our faith. (2Pet.1:5-8) These things mentioned in 2Pet.1:5-8 (i.e. patience, charity, brotherly kindness) we don't just show through lip service but through actual works. As Jam.2:20 states: "...faith without works is dead?"
(cont'd)
---manny on 9/22/09


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#2
But can we boast if we do these works? No, because we do it not by ourselves but with the help of the holy spirit which strengthens us, and helps us understand God's words. And we don't do it just to be able to say to others, "hey i've followed God's commandments"... we do it because it is what God expects of us.

As Phil.2:12 says: "...my beloved,... work out your own salvation... We need to do the works, not our own works, but the works "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:10).
---manny on 9/22/09


Muqwump>>"..if I do such and such.."

I agree. Again, I'm just trying to clear possible wrong notion that we don't need to do anything to be saved. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves..." (Eph.2:8-9)

We are saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH... through faith in Jesus Christ. That's why Jhn.3:16 says that those who would not perish are those who BELIEVETH in Him. So it's a wrong to say that "we don't need to do anything" ... we need to believe... to have faith.. for us to be counted with those whose sins have been washed by His blood. Those who, after hearing God's words don't do anything... don't believe in Him...refuse to repent and change his ways will never be saved.
---manny on 9/22/09


manny,
"Is that fair...? Is that justice...? Isn't God a God of justice...?"
Some men have of always picked and choosed what they wanted out of the full councel of God, that to their detriment. Matthew 23:23 is a prime example where 'some men' had, "omitted the weightier matters of the law". Much is being omitted by these partial Paulinians of today, who miss the full councel of the Gospel of Christ delivered by Paul to justify their pet theories and traditions.

Christ said,
"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." We should wonder if those are really living who do not heed to EVERY WORD!
---Nana on 9/18/09


He made many.
---Eloy on 9/17/09


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MarkV, thanks for your reassurance. I appreciate it.
---mugwump on 9/17/09


Muqwump, I believe you are perfectly correct in all of your post here. I believe when there is an argument about what the Bible teaches, it is when man is told that they are saved by Grace along. They somehow want to boast they have something to give God that is worth anything as Cain did. In other words, pride enters the picture. That is where the battle begins. Is God in charge or is man still in charge? God gave Adam to be in charge and look what happened.
---MarkV. on 9/17/09


Manny -**Is it justice other people (like the israelites) have to obey certain covenants to receive salvation while "believers", as you put it, receive it so easily...? Is that fair...? Is that justice...? Isn't God a God of justice...? ---

By our standards of what is fair, justice?

We have the same argument in His selection of Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, etc.

Romans 9:20-21 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

God is sovereign and salvation is by grace not of ourselves. Eph. 2:8-10
---lee on 9/16/09


Jimbo, I don't follow you at all. What are you trying to tell me? God bless!
---mugwump on 9/16/09


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mugwash...it would seem then that you dont belong to Christ who came and died for you and me and the world...because He was a Jew and some say the laws are just for Jews only..quirky...He also is the Word made flesh John 1:1-7 I guess He is our God and not yours then..
---jimbo on 9/16/09


as far as I know there are 5. noah,abraham,israel.david,and the promise of a new covenant.
---tom2 on 9/16/09


Manny, I was just saying that salvation is not some sort of contract we make with God -- that is, if I do such-and-such, then God will save me. Salvation is entirely gratuitous on God's part. You can read about it in Romans 5. God bless!
---mugwump on 9/15/09


God did not make covenants "WITH" mankind (they never depended on our approval). The covenants are only God's business, we can no more fulfill a covenant than create a planet. What is our business is...

....THE GOSPEL (what Jesus did on earth for us).

Paul said that he chose to know nothing about devotion to God except...

...CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED (very wise choice).

Develop eyes to see and ears to hear and focus on what is really important (the "depths of God").
---more_excellent_way on 9/16/09


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Salvation is a FREE gift and was given GRACIOUSLY, not IMPERIALISTICALLY (nothing is expected in return). JESUS is our sabbath rest (REST/relax in The Lord and be bored). The ONLY "works" we should do are the "works of God" by letting them be "manifest in" us...

John 6:28 and 9:3
"What should we be doing to do the works of God?".

"should be manifest in..." (GOSPEL trust and RELAX).

If and when we decide to give help/assistance to someone, we should not give it GRUDGINGLY, we should be giving WILLFULLY/cheerfully.

Academically, understanding a "covenant" is not our business (understand the GOSPEL).
---more_excellent_way on 9/16/09


muqwump>>"we believers are saved purely by grace and not by agreing..."

I'm not sure if this is what you mean by your statement, but the problem with this notion of "saved by grace" is that it is interpreted by some to mean that we don't even need to do anything and we're saved.

Is it justice that other people (like the israelites) have to obey certain covenants to receive salvation while "believers", as you put it, receive it so easily...? Is that fair...? Is that justice...? Isn't God a God of justice...?
---manny on 9/15/09


It seems that the only covenant in the Bible pertaining to all humanity is that which God made with Noah. All the other biblical covenants are between God and Israel. We believers are saved purely by grace and not by agreeing to terms of a covenant.
---mugwump on 9/15/09


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