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What Is Election Of Grace

What is the term "election of grace"?

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 ---g on 9/17/09
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Donna66, My understanding of Ralph's comment was Calvinists make the mistake of separating the benifits from the Benifactor. Salvation is ONLY in the Person of Jesus Christ...it is HIS LIFE that gives us Life everalsting.

In Him we live and move an have our being!

Oh, and Christ Himself IS the Mercy seat.
David foretold of this day when he said:

Psalm 85:10
Mercy and truth are met together, righteousness and peace have kissed each other. ( That happened at Calvary!

So you see, God doesn't just have Mercy on who He wills, God has Mercy on those who come to Him through Jesus ONLY. That is what HE WILLED from the beginning! There is NO MERCY without BLOOD! Hebrews 9 & 10!
---kathr4453 on 10/5/09


Donna, You misunderstood me. By saying neither I meant that its much more and that its NOT a work at all because Christ finished it on the Cross.
Its not my fault you don't understand this or that you chose to assume even when I explained why and yet you still want to persecute me. Thats fine. I know that the finished work on the Cross by Christ is how Im reconciled back to God. I know that I was made in iniquity and that I wasn't adopted by God as his true daughter until I came to Christ for salvation. Then I became HIS elect and predestined for salvation because God promised it through Christ.
If you don't believe its this way then you completely remove Christ out of the equation.
---miche3754 on 10/5/09


-- Miche :

1)"Where does the Bible say we are written in the Lambs Book of Life BEFORE becoming part of Christ's Body", it's in Rev.17:8

2)"Those verses don't say anything about being chosen BEFORE Christ saving you", it's in Rom.8:29-30

Sister, I responded to you only in Hopes of share scripture to your above questions which you thought was 'No Where' to be found.

I had/have no intentions of getting pulled into this "Chicken & The Egg" conversation of did we seek to Believe in Christ of our own Freewill or was it God Drawing us to seek & Believe in Christ!

My Trusting Faith humbly abide in John 6:44, and with that shared, I'll leave this Blog with Peace & God Bless to all.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/5/09


Miche-- As I remember, the question was
"Is Salvation the work of God for Man or the Work of man for GOD".

By saying "neither", you are denying both.

I can understand your rejection " a work of man for God"

But to say,
Salvation is NOT the work of God for Man" is incomprehensible to me. Who but God could possibly provide Salvation for Man?
It sounded to me like you didn't want to give HIM credit?

If you simply wanted to elaborate on and qualify both, you should not have said "neither".
---Donna66 on 10/4/09


Kathr4453 --I understand your comments. But If you say they explain Ralphs statement about "separating the benefits from the benefactor"...well,OK, I'll take your word for it.
---Donna66 on 10/4/09




After reading these assaults on each other using the Word of GOD I wonder if any of really Care for the other

Question

Does this conversation about election gloriy Christ,or is is about who can one up the other to prove a point?

Question 2

Have you responded in the Love the Christ or in the pride of your flesh?

I am praying for peace.

Blessings
---Psalm_91 on 10/4/09


Steven,
Stop twisting my words!
I didn't say anything about doing the law!
I said Grace is given freely from God. All man has to do is believe it!
Believing is NOT WORKS!
Yet God makes no one accept him!
That is very funny because I did go seeking. That is what he tells us to do!
God knows each and every one of us and all he is waitning on is for us to believe it.
I can't believe we have another on here twisting scripture to say that God makes some destined for salvation and the rest are just left out in the Cold. God is a loving God not the Hateful god you are trying to make him out to be!
---miche3754 on 10/4/09


Romans 11:1-10. The topic is Israel and a remnant of Israel, vs 5, "a remnant (of Israel) according to God's choice of Grace." The chapter goes on to discuss Grace toward the Gentiles.

Matt 11:25...vs 28, "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden..."

Yes, salvation is not by "works." But His grace calls all people to respond to His grace. II Peter 3:9"...not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

Yes, God foreknew who would accept His Grace, after they accepted His Grace, they are predestined to be His workmanship.
---Rod4Him on 10/4/09


Mich that is nothing more than a clever disguise system of works. You do this and God will do that. My God does it all start to finish He is the Author and finisher of my faith i.e. the faith. He has already declared NONE will seek Him NO NOT ONE Rm3:10, yet you call God a liar. It is by the grace of God alone anybody would be saved and it is by the Finished work Christ was sent too do, God does save. He promised to save His people out of this world. The message tells of this God and how he will save His People not another by sending a redeemer for them satisfying law and justice for them and them alone. Grace, grace grace it is all grace coz ti is all God
---steven-rem7000 on 10/4/09


Shawn,
Yes God forknew what is going to happen.
But he never created anyone destined for either heaven or hell.
He intended that salvation be for everyone.
We don't get "quickened" to be washed. It is a freewill choice. The quickening doesn't happen UNTIL we repent and believe Christ.
So, nothing none of what you are stating happens until after we receive Christ as our savior. The grace is already here, it is given. All man has to do is accept the gift.
Believe Christ and receive Gods Grace! God does the rest after that.
By the way, God's Spirit draws through his word. Those who believe otherwise are deleting the work Christ did on the Cross.
---miche3754 on 10/4/09




cut out these
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day.
God blindes people Mat 11:25b I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,
---steven-rem7000 on 10/3/09


Kathr:

I am glad you love John 17:20. It is an awesome scene for us who believe in this time because of the Apostles words so long ago. You are, of course, correct in the fact that we believe because we have heard these words, the Word of God.

But, in John 17:20, did Jesus pray a prayer of vagueness for those who would believe in the future, or did He in fact know all of us, individually, at that moment when He was thanking the Father for all He had given to Him?

I contend that Jesus knew the future at that moment in time. His simple acknowledgement that there WOULD be ones who followed because of the apostles words, shows it to be true. I further believe that He knew us all, individually, at that moment.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/09


ShawnMT:

I do in fact, strongly agree with your statement, that God in His foreknowledge, knew everything from the beginning to the end, every person, every thing, every word, every deed, every piece of information possible, before He created the world and all of the creation. He knew then, who would believe in Jesus, before Jesus even left heaven to become our Savior.

I know these kinds of statements blow people's minds. We must remember that it is the TRUE God that we love and call Father. He is so high and so far above all that we can comprehend, all we can do is fall on our face, cry for mercy, and worship Him.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/3/09


Election of grace is a man-made term used in a man-made system of thinking that says God by His divine shocking nature only chose specific individuals to be saved. Within that teaching contains the thought that not everyone has a free choice to accept God's salvation which God offers to all people by initiating the invitation to all people.
Ironically, the people who seem to hold stongest to this view appear to demonstrate the least of God's character of loving one another.
Through God's great lottery system, some people were chosen by God to hell, and others were chosen for bliss with God.
They nulify all the verses about God so loving the world that "whosoever" believes in Him has everlasting life.
---Rod4Him on 10/3/09


-- Miche :

Sister, MarkV & MarkE wouldn't probably use these words but this is what they're endeavoring to share.

God has Foreknowledge of everything that would happen in Creation even before He Spoke Creation into Existence and He Chose to Predestinate whom He Foreknow to be CONFORMED(at a later time) to the Image of His Son, because of 1Cor.15:36-38.

God's Plan to Sacrifice the Precious Blood of Christ was also Foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was only manifested it in these last time for us, so we may be quickened through being washed clean of our sins & Born Again in order to receive the 'Indwelling Seal' of God's Living Promise, "The Holy Ghost", and redeem Salvation to enter Heaven.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/3/09


Donna66, Why is Ralph's comment so hard to understand?

Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ....
You cannot separate Grace from Mercy...Only through the shed blood of Jesus Christ can you come boldly to the Throne of GRACE. Through the veil, that is, to say His Flesh...Identifying with Christ in death and resurrection life, BY this GRACE only have you been saved! Not some esoteric gnostic spirit, redefined as grace that borns again you first. The Holy Spirit did not die on a cross and shed His Blood. The Holy Spirit TESTIFIES of the work of JESUS Christ who became FLESH. To say you were saved by Grace apart from Jesus Christ, is to deny the absolute NEED for Jesus to come in the flesh.


I get it perfectly!
---kathr4453 on 10/3/09


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Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
These arwe the elcetion of grace Christ gave his life a ransom for many.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
non elect not Christ sheep, plain.
---steven-rem7000 on 10/3/09


By the way Donna, that wasn't nice what you said on the other blog about me saying "neither". If you had read the entire post you would have understod what I was talking about.
It is neither. Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED". That meant Grace is given and his work on the cross was complete.
Grace is free, all man has to do is believe and accept it. They should believe the testimony given by the Bible that Christ finished the work.
Since Grace is given and finished, it is when we come to CHrist that we become the elected, called out.
---miche3754 on 10/3/09


I'm an arminian believer who believes in free will, but I don't like the methods Kathr uses to discuss scripture for the cause. She is not one who I consider a representive of the cause with her tactics. A fair exchange of the Truth is what is needed. Everyone has the right to exchange the truth as they see it. After all, we are all christians. Sister Miche does not resort to the same tactics as Kathr. Kathr is not representing me or the truth. I want everyone to know that. She is speaking for herself.
---mary-lou on 10/3/09


Markv,
What you are teaching is not the Gospel of Christ.
You are teaching that God made some destined for hell and those he didn't have no chance for salvation.
This is not what Christ says.
Christ says if you repent of your sins, and Believe he is the son of God, the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world for your sins, You shall be saved.
Once you do this, he sends HIS Spirit to help you in all things. To sustain you, to teach you and pick you up when you fall.
You have got to understand that if salvatioin is determined BEFORE one is born, then there would have been no plan for God to sacrifice Christ, his only son.

And thank you brother Ralph!
---miche3754 on 10/3/09


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ralph -- your argument about separating the benefits from the benefactor... maybe I'm just dense, but I don't get it.
---Donna66 on 10/2/09


If only the elect receive the gift of the Holy Spirit who irresistibly draws His own people that they might believe the gospel, and the same Spirit is never given in such a way to the non-elect, then the only conclusion one can reach is that there is a benefit in the death and resurrection of Christ which was never intended for salvation.

By maintaining this erroneous point of calvinism one must separate the benefits from the Benefactor. In other words, the only way to consistently believe Calvinism is to erroneously conclude that irresistible grace is a grace given to people apart from the person of Jesus Christ Himself.

I believe this is what Miche and Kathr are trying to get across.

Bravo to Miche & Kathr!
---Ralph on 10/2/09


Miche, I love you too. What you are trying to do is correct me, which would be great if what you said was Truth. But I cannot be corrected by a lie, because the elect cannot be deceived.
I have a lot of respect for you, so I will not answer you concerning this topics. I believe I have put down enough Scripture. You are a good person and my prayers are that one day you will see God as Scripture discribes Him.
I rebuked Kathr because while at the hospital, my pastor got to read how she answered concerning my comments and was disappoint I was still talking to her, He told me that when someone needs help to help them, when someone has their own agenda against the gospel of Christ to rebuke them and move on.
---MarkV. on 10/2/09


Bobby1,
I understand and agree that we are "called out by God".
My debate with Markv has always been, How can we be called if Markv believes we can't hear God?
And How is it that God calls us out of the world?
We don't receive the Holy Spirit until we believe and we have to hear God's word to believe.
God calls out to us through the Word of God.
Jesus himself said "Repent and believe for the Kingdom of God is at hand".
AND "Whosoever will believe him will have everlasting life".
Markv says that people have to be given faith by God to believe that Jesus is truth.
Funny thing is that even the demons believe Jesus and they don't have God making them believe it.
---miche3754 on 10/2/09


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"it is unScriptural to teach the unregenerate before they come to repentance toward God and faith in the only true Christ1st God has to teach them HIS gospel concerning HIS SON coz it is the power of GOD unto salvation.."steven-rem7000 on 10/1/09

You can't understand the Spiritual things of God until you repent and believe God! Jesus says so!
Then the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you teaching you all the things of God.
The Holy Spirit will not dwell in an unclean temple. Jesus must wash you clean first!
God draws All man by his word to Christ to get washed clean.
Stop twisting salvation and Christ work on the cross.
How can you forget Christ is the one who washes you clean and makes you acceptable to God!?
---miche3754 on 10/2/09


Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed
---miche3754 on 10/2/09
Exactly Miche, and what exactly was it Thomas doubted....HIS RESURRECTION...Thomas saying I won't BELIEVE until I see...So then Jesus came, showed him His scars etc...and said BLESSED are those who don't see but believe...THIS IS FAITH!!!!

This is what Calvinists, along with Bobby1 snakey way of re-defining FAITH like the serpant with Eve.( god really didn't mean this)

OUR faith is in the REPORT that Christ is RISEN...We don't have to SEE to BELIEVE it's true!!!

God Bless you Miche....
---kathr4453 on 10/2/09


Kathr what I say now is that you have the skills of a snake, the same way the snake spoke to Eve by not defining the terms when he spoke.

Catherine gave a good example of defining the terms when she answered as to not to deceive. You, don't define the terms of words you use to deceive others who don't understand scripture and can be fooled by you.

The New Testament word for Church, which comes from the word "Ecclesiastical" means "those called out." Those whom God calls out of the world, away from sin and into a state of grace. All people means Israel and every person from all over the world who are called out, make up the Church.
---Bobby1 on 10/2/09


Shawn,
I asked "where does the Bible sa that we are written in the lambs book of life BEFORE becoming part of Christ's Body?"
You know "IN CHRIST AND HE IN US". Those verses don't say anything about being chosen BEFORE Christ saving you. It is AFTER that you are written in it because you have HIS seal upon you.

And Kath you are so right. Jesus was talking about the Apostles who were given to him by God.
John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed
---miche3754 on 10/2/09


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God's sovereign decision to choose people to be His own. "It does not mean His grace is going to save everyone". The word "election" itself is derived from the Greek word "eklegomal", which means, literally, "to choose something for oneself". This in turn corresponds to the Hebrew word, "bachar".>>>The objects of divine selection are the elect ones. The doctrine of election is rooted in the particularity of the Judeo-Christian tradition, that is, the conviction that out of all the people on the earth God has chosen to reveal Himself in a special, unique way to one particular people. [This conviction resunates through every layer of OT literature].
---catherine on 10/1/09


Mark, you will also be unsuccessful in your answers to both Mich and kathr. You cannot move them or teach them. God tells us to rebuke them and move on.
---Bobby1 on 10/1/09

Well Bobby1, I see you believe in the Rapture, So do I. MarkV does not.

Those elected to GRACE are those who are the Body of Christ, members of His Body, who will be the ones Raptured. That's what WE have been ELECTED to!

Markv, believes himself to be the elect Jacob, The Elect Israel.

Now it says the elder (Esau) will SERVE the younger Jacob). So are you saying here those whom God hated, Esau's descendents.. are chosen to SERVE us? Nothing said about Esau chosen for hell!

What say you now???
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


I agree Bobby1 also it is unScriptural to teach the unregenerate before they come to repentance toward God and faith in the only true Christ.
1st God has to teach them HIS gospel concerning HIS SON coz it is the power of GOD unto salvation. Yeah God gets all the glory and He will not share it with another
---steven-rem7000 on 10/1/09


-- Miche :

Sister, All of God's Word Spiritually coincides with each other like pieces to a puzzle fitting perfectly together.

I share Rev.13:4,8-9 & Rev.17:8 because you asked on 9/30/09 and was under the false assumption that they were "No where!" to be found. My intentions in posting those verses wasn't to spark your disagreement but so that you knew they existed!!

I was only in Hopes of you taking these new pieces of the puzzle and properly placing them in your belief system, so you may gain an even clearer over all picture of when we're born again in Christ, we gain the Seal of Promise and not our name in the Book of Life.

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/1/09


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Mark, you will also be unsuccessful in your answers to both Mich and kathr. You cannot move them or teach them. God tells us to rebuke them and move on.
---Bobby1 on 10/1/09


John 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word **Mark-Eaton**


Mark_Eaton I absolutely LOVE John 17:20 .....this verse is talking about US who hear. Jesus prior to this verse is talking about the APOSTLES whom God gave to Him, and through the preaching of the Apostles,who preach The WORD of God....not their words...believe teh report that JESUS ROSE FROM THE DEAD!!!!!


So that confirms completely FAITH comes by HEARING, not by election.
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father, neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son,

and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. READ THE BIBLE IN CONTEXT X3
And again they(the chosen)shall all be taught of God jN6:44...and whom He reveals Himself "for therin is the righteousness of God revealed"Rm1:16 shall come to Christ. no one will come except the Father which sent Him draw them
---steven-rem7000 on 10/1/09


Amen Kath!!
Many try to go around Christ, and he said many would try!
Matthew 7:13-15

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Those who say God chose them before the foundation of the world are peddling falsehoods and are wolves in sheeps clothing! They try to go around the True Gate which is Christ!
You can't enter without being in Christ first!



---miche3754 on 10/1/09


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Kathr, Miche:

I understand you feel that our free will decision for Christ was made without the foreknowledge and election of God. I must disagree with that statement and point out that Jesus taught differently.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day".

John 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"

John 17:20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word"

Jesus made it clear. The Father has given all believers to Him and the Father knows who they are in advance.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/09


MarkV, you continually TWIST the Word of God, just like in Ephesians.

We are saved by GRACE through faith.... IT is the gift "IT" being SINGULAR not plural...and you put the emphasis of the GIFT being Faith and Not Grace.

If Both were the Gift, then Scripture would say THEY, not IT. The IT is Grace, the Gift is the GIFT of the Righteousness of Jesus Christ.Romans 5

The Reason the GIFT cannot be of yourselves, is because YOU cannot shed your own blood and atone for your own sin. Please buy yourself a Rosetta Stone program and LEARN English, and then take a class on sentence structure....Nouns, verbs, prepositions etc, and LEARN how to carefully Comprehend Sentence structure.

It may help!
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


***The Book of Life of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the world.***

We see the emphasis is on the LAMB slain from the foundation of the world.

We know from Genesis 3:15, along with Abel who put his faith in the LAMB slain from the foundation, by his sacrifice of a lamb, acknowledging his own faith in the promise Hebrews 11...BECAME heir of the Righteousness BY FAITH in God's Promise.

Those who reject REDEMPTION throught the Blood of the LAMB, and believe themselves to be saved apart from the LAMB of God, Jesus and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, are the enemies of the CROSS, vessels of God's WRATH.

Again re-read 1st Peter 1..Christ was for-ordained( before the foundation of teh world) for us NOT with us!
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


Shawn, I have to disagree because our names are not written in it until we come to Christ. It is his spirit that Identifies us to God. If this were not needed God would not have sacrificed his son. He would have just went ahead and chose and be done with it.
The verses the talk about the lamb slain, say that IN HIM we are predestined. You can't ignore that. Because it is in him we are adopted and written in the book.
So, you have misinterpreted these verses to mean God has already determined who he would save from the beginning therefore stating that some were created destined for Hell with no chance of redemption. And that is against what Jesus says.
All have a chance for redemption. Grace was given to all of mankind, not just a few.
---miche3754 on 10/1/09


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Steven-rem, thank you for coming forward brother and defending God's Sovereignty as written in Scripture. Let me say that some do twist the word of God, but others just don't understand yet that part of Scripture because God has not reveal it to them yet. I understand when people want to know, and are searching hard to make sure they have the Truth. But some are working against the Word on purpose.
The rock throwing has increased the last month. The more I put the Word down, the more the resistance. I pray that more come to know the Real God of Scripture, The Ruler, The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Such a God can be known only as He is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit through His Word.
---MarkV. on 9/30/09


-- Miche & Kathr:

Sisters, Humbly are these the scriptures you were in hopes of knowing if they existed & where they're located in the Bible?

1) They worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast....And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the Book of Life of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the world. If any man have an Ear, let him Hear. Rev.13:4,8-9

2) They that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the world. Rev.17:8

Hope these verses are edifying to your diligent endeavors of abide in the Peace of our Lord & Savior's Light of Truth!

Grace Unto You Both & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 9/30/09


You can sure tell alot of people just don't believe God. And have a god by twisting the Scriptures to their own demise. God calls it unbelief. Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. God has preordained Rm9 before anyone was born.
It's is ALL of GRACE that is why it is called the gospel of grace coz Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable, there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
some beleive they are good enough
---steven-rem7000 on 9/30/09


Kathr4453, Grace is God adopting you to be in his family, Friendly Blogger


NO Friendly Blogger, If one can FALL from Grace, then one can unadopt themselves.

Grace is Galatians 2:20-21 the opposite of LAW!!!!
---kathr4453 on 9/30/09


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Kath, Amen to your post!
Mark E, Markv, and freindly blogger really need to read these!
Where does it say our names are written in the book of life BEFORE we are in Christ?
No where!
We must be in Christ to get into the book of Life.
Please stop trying to get around the work Christ did on the Cross!
---miche3754 on 9/30/09


Kathr4453, Grace is God adopting you to be in his family, Christ paid the price for all of the Elect's prior sins. Paul described the process in Romans. Roman adoption was serious business. You were literally bought from your old family for a price. You became a new person with a new name, any depts you had under your prior name no longer existed. Any crimes against you under your former name legally vanish. You are a new person with a clean slate. In John Chapter 17 Christ says he does not pray for the world he prays only for those that the Father gave him. I's that simple. No one gets saved you were either selected by God our you weren't. Most of the actions you attribute as necessary for salvation are actions as a result of salvation.
---The_Friendly_Blogger on 9/29/09


The friendly blogger/MarkV:

How do you understand this? It PROVES by your own words that not ALL CALLED (IRRESISTABLE GRACE) are all CHOSEN!

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

And in Acts...what about those who RESISTED the HOLY SPIRIT. Again Irresistable grace is not found in scripture.

GRACE is JESUS death and resurrection. Grace, IS his HIS GIFT of dying for your sin.

AND according to Paul in Galatians YOU CAN FALL FROM GRACE...RE: the doctrine of the CROSS Crucified with Christ, and go back under the LAW.

Therefore your definition of GRACE is the problem!

---kathr4453 on 9/29/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Whom God did foreknow(His Elect according to His Foreknowledge), He did Predestinate to be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many Brethren. Rom.8:29-30

Moreover whom God did Predestinate, them He also Called: and whom He Called, them He also Justified: and whom He Justified, them He also Glorified : with the 'Indwelling' Living Promise of His Seal, "The Holy Ghost", after being Born Again & washed clean of our sins through the Blood of the Living Waters of His Word made flesh, Christ Jesus.

......and many shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life(of the Lamb Slain) from the Foundation of the world. Rev.13:4-8, 17:8
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/29/09


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Miche:

I know this is hard to accept and even harder to understand.

1 Peter 1:1-2 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who ... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood...".

We are chosen by God's foreknowledge, His "before" knowledge. He chose us before. Before ourselves, before our salvation, before the creation of the world.

Before it all, He chose us.

I don't understand it all myself. This is the mystery of God. That He knows everything and still He chose us.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/09


Miche3754, regrettably, you have most of the salvation process backwards. God chose all of the individuals that were ever going to be offered his grace and salvation before the creation of the world. Read the first chapter of Ephesians again. Salvation is God initiated and God's Grace is irresistible. Being selected to be a member of God's family is the most exclusive group there is. Christ has the right of being the first born son but all other adopted children share in the royal inheritance and privileges. And no one is ever kicked out of God's family that does not mean that you may not go the wood shed for an attitude adjustment, but none of Gods children falls out of his hands.
---The_Friendly_Blogger on 9/29/09


SO true Kath.
Im interested in where the bible says we are written in the Lambs book of Life without the seal of the Holy Spirit?Jesus says that NONE come to the Father but by HIM & none to HIM except the Father draws.
God says we are all marked by Adams sin (old man) and condemned until we receive Christ (new man).
How can you put on Christ when you aren't born into flesh yet?
John 3:5-7 (King James Version)Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water(flesh) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again
---miche3754 on 9/29/09


Miche,

The Lamb's book of life is the record of the Lamb's life JESUS! It contains the perfect record of the SINLESS Savior for the years He lived on the Earth. He never once sinned, in thought, word, deed, or the profound intentions of the heart. Satan found nothing in Him that could incline Him to sin.

The Lamb's Book of Life is the perfect record of the Lord Jesus As He lived on the Earth.

"What does it mean to have my name written in that book? Itmeans His perfect record is imputed to me. Under my name are listed HIS perfections. Jesus became sin for me, and I have become the righteousness of God in Him. We traded record books! He took mine to the cross and grave, I will take His to heaven!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/09


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Only the elect will come to Christ for the elect is the Church.
---MarkV. on 9/28/09

No one is "elect" until they are in Christ. God says so.
So, how are you an "elect" before being in Christ?
God plainly says "In Him". Who is "him"? CHRIST is him.
The Holy Ghost speaks to every heart but not every heart listens.

God chooses anyone who answers his call. And we are not written into the Lambs book of life until we receive Christ.
---miche3754 on 9/29/09


We don't become chosen or elect until we receive Christ as our lord and savior. Then we become sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ.
Please stop circumventing the work done on the Cross by CHRIST!
None are elect, predestined or sealed without Christ first!
---miche3754 on 9/29/0

Miche this is so true. Only Mormons believe they existed before the foundation of the world, and have th same philosophy as MarkV. You will note Calvinism and Mormonism are inbreds. They BOTH believe themselves to be THE SECRET ELECT!
---kathr4453 on 9/29/09


Markv

where in the Bible does it say our names were written in the book of Life BEFORE coming to Christ?

You are still not understanding Markv.
Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world for man's sins
It is predestined- which means predetermined- that anyone in Christ is adopted by God and will gain the inheritance
So, God did not pick us out before we were born!
We don't become chosen or elect until we receive Christ as our lord and savior. Then we become sealed by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ.
Please stop circumventing the work done on the Cross by CHRIST!
None are elect, predestined or sealed without Christ first!
---miche3754 on 9/29/09


All descendants of Adam are going to hell because of the curse, unless God draws them and saves them through Christ, they will continue heading to hell as it is written. They go to hell because when they knew God, they did not honor Him as God.
All those that come to faith were chosen from the foundation of the world, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."
Their names have been written on the book of Life from the foundation of the world. Not Kathr or Miche or anyone can change that no matter how much they twist the Words of Scripture. The results will be the same. Only the elect will come to Christ for the elect is the Church.
---MarkV. on 9/28/09


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Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.God in His infinite wisdom and love has chosen for Himself a people whom Christ has redeemed. They are the remnant according to the election of grace. They were chosen in Chris before the foundation of the world Eph.1:4 These elect children of God are out of the world every kindred, tribe, tounge, and nation.Rev5:9 This is the world "God so loved" Deu 7:7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people, for ye were the fewest of all people: God chose (elected) Christ redeemed (finished the work) Holy Spirit gives life (regeneration)That is why it is All grace coz it's ALL God
---steven-rem7000 on 9/28/09


Here's the GOOD NEWS to ALL Humanity:

God expressed His love for humanity by coming down to the earth in the form of a man and laying down His own human life in sacrifice to pay for the sins of humanity.



"Propitiation" is Jesus meeting the demands of the Father, to appease His wrath, so that humanity could be redeemed to God.

The ONLY sin now is REJECTING the FREE gift ALREADY paid already APPEASED.

So with that GOD did NOT and could not pick out anyone for HELL....
---kathr4453 on 9/25/09


Paul stating in Romans 11 that he, Paul, a Jew is counted as a Remnant of Israel to the Elect CHURCH..those saved by GRACE.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant(ONLY ISRAEL would be considered a REMNANT) according to the election of grace..

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. STILL talking about Israel

However GOD is not finished with Israel, and they as a Nation are STILL Considered GOD'S ELECT!

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel,they(ISRAEL)are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they( ISRAEL) are beloved for the father's sakes.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/09


Nana, Romans 2:6-10, follows verse 5, which says, "But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for youself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righeous judgment of God," and then comes verse 6, "who will render to each one according to his deeds.". These passages are speaking about the lost who's hearts are hardened, and who are treasuring up wrath for the day of Judgment. This final judgement is for the wicked and those who reject Christ and comes at the Great White Throne of Judgment.
---MarkV. on 9/24/09


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The ONLY TIME the verbage Election of Grace is used in scripture is in the following verse....taking about ISRAEL.

Grace AKA Calvary..the stumbling BLOCK to the Jews..remember, vs WORKS of the LAW!!!
Romans 11:5-6


5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

NOTHING here about anyone's name being picked out of a hat from a Capricious God!
---kathr4453 on 9/24/09


1 Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness.


Things the Jews stumbled over:


the manner of His birth. Isaiah 7:14
His lowly parentage John 6:42 Mark 6:3
His place of residence during His early years. John 1:46
His residing in Nazareth of Galilee. John 7:52
His undignified appearance. Isaiah 53:2
the obscurity of His kingdom, John 18:36-Romans 14:17
the company HE kept. Luke 15:1-2
the kind of people HE drew Mark 12:37
the praise some gave to Christ. Luke 19:37-
His doctrines. John 6:41
His miracles. Matthew 12:22-24
His Terms of salvation. John 3:18
that HE would rise again from the dead. Matthew 27:63-64
---kathr4453 on 9/24/09


Miche3754 -- I would say that the Grace of God is freely available to all who realize they need it.

I believe that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is SUFFICIENT for all men.
Why some people do not or cannot accept the gift of Salvation is a mystery to me.

My only responsibility is to present the Gospel to those who do not know Jesus. The rest is up to the Holy Spirit.
---Donna66 on 9/22/09


But I am saying that if our works could merit Heaven, Christ would have had no need to die. He died because we were incapable of being good enough or working hard enough to earn eternal life. GRACE is defined as "unmerited favor"...that which is not earned. 1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
Donna66 on 9/18/09

Amen to this!
Donna, do you believe that Grace is offered to all mankind?
---miche3754 on 9/20/09


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Election of Grace - is God's choice whom he wants to save. Its is synonymous to the word Chosen, Elect,seeds, remnant. They are the special people from every tribe,race, nationality, nation...chosen by God since from the foundation of the world. They are called the seeds of abraham. Although they sinned, they are assured to be save..since Christ paid their sins. John 5:17 Romans 11:15
---rosalie on 9/19/09


Donna, great answer about Grace. I believe many problems people have is not been sure what saves us, either faith, grace or works. What they don't realize I think or don't believe is that all of Adam descendants are heading to hell already. They cannot help sinning against God. They love to sin. It is their sinful nature. They don't want anything to do with God. They are running away from God.
That only because of God's great mercy and Grace people are saved from that damnation. If God does not intervene none would be saved.
Faith though it manifest itself in action, comes as a result of God's work in us. God grants us faith and that faith is evidenced by our walking in the good works that "God prepared beforehand" Eph 2:10
---MarkV. on 9/19/09


Donna66,
Romans 2:6-11: "Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God."
Hebrews 5:9: "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him,"
---Nana on 9/18/09


Nana-- Of course, there are many things we are expected to do as Christians. Abiding in Christ is the only way to produce fruit that pleases God. I'm not diminishing this truth.

But I am saying that if our works could merit Heaven, Christ would have had no need to die. He died because we were incapable of being good enough or working hard enough to earn eternal life. GRACE is defined as "unmerited favor"...that which is not earned. 1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

---Donna66 on 9/18/09


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"election of grace" > well, election can mean selecting someone by means of a majority vote. So, election of grace could mean that God in His grace "votes", and He is a majority of one, since ones in sin are not voting to give themselves to God and obey Him. But "something" has to happen, first, before a person with an evil nature changes to having a heart that desires to obey God. An evil heart does not make itself become obedient and loving of God. So, this is where grace comes in > grace is the *action* of God in a person, with His love coming in to change to person to become truly loving. His working is against resistance (Philippians 2:13).
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/18/09


from Luke, "the angel said, Hail Mary(new Eve in hebrew)full of grace, the Lord is with you." Nobody can see or hear God so he uses angels. Mary was told by God she was FULL of GRACE.
---donald on 9/18/09


Donna,
Fine Scripture that Jhn 15:16. But that you say, "NOTHING that WE do "persuades" God to be merciful to us or to give us eternal life." misses the boat, for Christ said "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine, no more can ye, except ye abide in me."
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."
We have a promise and a guarantee, that if we abide in him, he will nebver leave us nor forsake us. So then, you can't say that there is nothing we can do.
---Nana on 9/17/09


Michael -- Good scripture.

Here's another that describes "election of grace"

Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

NOTHING that WE do "persuades" God to be merciful to us or to give us eternal life.
We could not produce "fruit" by our own efforts, except God had ordained that we do so.
---Donna on 9/17/09


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false teaching?
Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
---MIchael on 9/17/09


I came to know Christ as savior 23 years ago.

There is NO such thing as "election of grace". That is only a 'catch phrase' that scam artists (false preachers) have dreamt up to make it seem that they possess special information.

Only GOD can do any "elect"ing, otherwise, it is NONE of our concern to know or understand.

Our only concern is the "Godly spiritual" health of our relationship/devotion (the 'spirituality of man' teachings that we receive in the 'church of man' should not form our devotion...beware of false teachings).
---more_excellent_way on 9/17/09


In, richardinbellingham/blog.
Is more like predestination. God chooses you (or He wouldn't be knocking at your hearts door). God's knows from the foundation of the world who the people are that He chooses to serve Him & to bid His services.
---Lawrence on 9/17/09


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