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God's Wrath Held Back

Do you believe God's wrath has been held back so Christ can work on savng mankind?

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Who Is Jesus Bible Quiz
 ---miche3754 on 9/20/09
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Psalm_91

Is Salvation the work of God for Man or the Work of man for GOD?
It is totally the work of God.

How anybody can slither out of the question by saying neither, is beyond me. Salvation was GOD's idea, HE provided the means (Jesus Christ), HE provided the Word that conveys the truth. HE readies the hearts of men to receive the truth. If God did not do these things, is there any way a man could be saved? Of course not.

God needs nothing from mankind. And whatever work he appoints for men to do is entirely for HIS Glory.
---Donna66 on 10/2/09


Kathr
You would do best to study the word before you post anything. In every question no one is right but you. You act like a prophet who only has the truth, but know nothing of what is real truth.
---Bobby1 on 10/1/09

Bobby1, what exactly are these diggs towards Kathr? It is obvious you have a wild hair. I see many here on line saying the same thing Kathr is saying and I for one am in agreement with her. I see mima agrees with her. What do you mean...no one is right but her. I don't have a problem with any truth she brings.



You speak out of turn here. I would have to conclude you were brought online to attack certain people. That is obvious.
---Larry on 10/2/09


Miche
Thank you for your honest answer.

Election is a hard sell because most people don't want to read writings of the reformers and compare them to God word in context.
it is easier to listen to a pastor tell you about the word and what it means. Many Christians have a pick and choose version of Gods word (they pick out what they want and choose to remove what they dont want) I am not saying you do this.
I know you love Mark V. if you didnt you wouldnt try to show him his error
And I applaud you for that love.
---Psalm_91 on 10/2/09


Alan

the question was for Miche.
but thank you for your answer.


Blessings
---Psalm_91 on 10/2/09


Mark_Eaton,I do know what I am saying, You just don't know what YOu are doing!

We are called to be WITNESSES of Jesus Christ, RISEN. This is what the Apostles bore witness to and proclaimed...HE IS RISEN!!!

We bear witness to Christ HE IS RISEN, by the Witness of Christ in us and the Holy Spirit in us. We do not bear witness to a lost world that we are elect and they are not. There is NO POWER unto Salvation for that in any way.

I'm really sorry to say this to all you Calvinists...ONLY a Moron fails to see what we are called to do...bear witness TO CHRIST, not yourselves.

I'm DONE here!

This BLOG is not about election in the first place. But you -----'s always turn EVERYTHING to be about YOU!!!! YUCK!!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/2/09




Mark_Eaton , James and Peter are both writing to the 12 Tribes of Israel. Peter is an apostle to the Jews.

God said in Amos and elsewhere, this:

Amos 3

1Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying,

2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Now they are writing to the scattered dispersed of Israel, of whom ONLY God said He knew..foreknew.

Paul states in Romans 11 ..Hath God cast away His People He forknew? God Forbid...because out of those of Israel I FORKNEW, there is a REMNANT according to the election of grace.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/09


Ya'll just do not believe what God has said I appologize not for what the Scriptures plainly say.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Psa 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
---steven-rem7000 on 10/2/09


Psalms91, We are the salt, that makes others THIRSTY, and want to come to the Rivers of LIVING water, and out of our own bellies will flow rivers of LIVING water to give, just as Jesus promised the woman at the well.

We are the LIGHT of the world too, to be a LIGHT in darkness to the LOST, as HIS LIGHT, His risen life, shines through us, testifying/witnessing to the lost world, Jesus!

I Love Psalms 91, God spoke to me after I got saved.

He also gave me this along with Psalms 91:

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
---kathr4453 on 10/2/09


The Doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of the cross.
Larry you as many others are confused and confusion is of the wicked one.

#1The doctrine of the cross is where the work of righteousness was established and sins paid in full. That would also mean the sin of unbelief, rejection i.e. ALL sin. The problem is you do not believe "it is Finished" coz you still have to do something. Your faith is what you count as righteousness that makes the difference between heaven and hell. We, whom defend the faith of the saints, have been all taught of God Jn6:45 are faith does not save us, BUT Christ faithfulness in finishing the work His (our) Father sent him to do. Faith is a deed of the law. All are commanded to believe.
---steven-rem7000 on 10/2/09


#2 The doctrine of Christ is the person and the work as Paul has stated we preach Christ AND him crucified. The person of his constitution, what was foretold about Him that we would know He is the Messiah. He would be born of a virgin etc. He would save His people from their sins. HOW, He would justify many in what manner he would do this. How God would be glorified in justifying His people.
That is why believers preach the gospel of Gods grace in the person and work of Christ. Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
---steven-rem7000 on 10/2/09




Whoever you are Psalm 91, though sick right now I am encouraged by Matthew 5:11-12. I also read 13, which says, "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men"
Salt is both a preservative and a flavor enhancer. No doubt its use as a preservative is what Jesus had mostly in view here. Pure salt cannot lose it flavor or effectiveness, but the salt that is common in the Dead Sea area is contaminated with gypsum and other minerals and may have a flat taste and not effective as a preservative. Such salt is only useful for keeping footpaths free from vegetation. Peace brother
---MarkV. on 10/2/09


Kathr:

I do not understand what you are saying.

What does this say differently than the NASB version? The ELECTION OF GRACE is not in the actual TEXT, it is inserted by the translators or by you.

There is still the phrase "sprinking of His blood" which is salvation, pictured for the Jews as Moses sprinking the blood in the OT.

The verse does not describe the election of the Jews as a people, but describes the election of believers because of the obedience to Jesus. Only believers can be obedient to Jesus.

This verse is a parallel passage to Ephesians 1.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/2/09


Is Salvation the work of God for Man or the Work of man for GOD?
---Psalm_91

Unquestionably, Salvation is the work of God for Man

I cannot recall anyone here who has suggested otherwise.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/2/09


Is Salvation the work of God for Man or the Work of man for GOD?
---Psalm_91 on 10/1/09

Neither. Its the GRACE of God THROUGH CHRIST for man, to reconcile man back to God.
Its Christ who is foreknown and predestined. We are adopted by God as sons and daughters once we are saved by Christ and sealed with HIS Spirit. In other words, we become predestined and foreknown THROUGH CHRIST to God. God won't save anyone NOT in Christ and not sealed by HIS Spirit.
Jesus says for us to ABIDE in HIM and HE in US.
By BELIEVING the testimony written by the Apostles God gave to Jesus to record WHAT JESUS DID FOR US! we are saved.
If they didn't, would we have heard, believed or be saved?

thanx Larry and Kath for the back up!
---miche3754 on 10/2/09


Please Post.
Psalm, I love Markv. If I didn't I wouldnt show him his in error. I understand lifting up when its needed. BUT the word says for us to correct when one is wrong in the Body of Christ. If we rebuke him and he doesn't repent, then God takes over.
See 1 Corinthians 5.
God made none of us destined for heaven or hell.
He sent Jesus to make that decision. Then Jesus said Repent, Believe and be saved or don't repent, or believe and be cast to hell.
Before Him, we had to keep every letter of the law (animal sacrifice and all)to get to paradise.
Now, through Jesus, if we believe on him and follow after him, become sealed with his spirit, we shall have everlasting life, and aren't under the law that "killeth".
---miche3754 on 10/2/09


Mark V

Take comfort in Matthew 5:11-12

Miche####

Christ is glorified daily in spirit and in truth! Scripture says for us to encourage each other and that is what I am doing for Mark V.

I have one question

Is Salvation the work of God for Man or the Work of man for GOD?
---Psalm_91 on 10/1/09


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He who abides not (ya'll don't even have... so to not abide) in the doctrine of Christ has not GOD paraph. 2Jn 1:9
---steven-rem7000 on 10/1/09

steven-rem700,

He who abides in the doctrine of Christ, not the doctrine of John Calvin.

Both Miche and Kathr abide in the doctrine of Christ, that whosoever will may come. The Doctrine of Christ is the doctrine of the cross. Again, both Miche and Kathr are here holding to the doctrine of the cross.

I will have to say, your reply here is nonsense, poorly stated, and ignorant of the question at hand.

Answer:
God is slow to wrath hoping all will come to repentance. So the answer to the question is yes!
---Larry on 10/1/09


Paslm 91, thanks for the encouragement. I do want others to answer for a while because I have not been feeling too good lately. Maybe for a while others can speak with courage. It is important to defend the Word of God. We don't have to, for God knows what He is doing, but because of our passion for the Truth, we like to defend it. Praise God for all who spend their time studying about the Character and nature of God to know the real God of Scripture. Peace to you brother,
and also to all others who are speaking on behalf of our Sovereign Lord who has lost no abilities to man, only in their mind.
---MarkV. on 10/1/09


Kathr
You would do best to study the word before you post anything. In every question no one is right but you. You act like a prophet who only has the truth, but know nothing of what is real truth.
---Bobby1 on 10/1/09


Mark_Eaton,

The Amplified Bible of this verse explains it best. It compliments Romans 11:1-5 concerning the JEWS.

1 Peter 1
1PETER, AN apostle(a special messenger)of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered ELECTION OF GRACE (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia,and Bithynia,

2Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated(sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ(the Messiah)and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be [a]realized in and through Christ, [b]freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


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MarkV I am truly sorry that you are sick.

But I am not complaining or whining, here or on the whining blog.

I am just pointing out the FACT that you continuously LIE about what others say.

I hoped that you might at last realise that lying is wrong ... but sadly you don't.

Jesus did not lie when putting His message to the people ... there should be no need for you to do so. Jesus made no false accusations of His opponents ... but you lie continuously, even about those who like you love Jesus.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/1/09


to Mich an Kath
Well, you better cut out before either one was born so that Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,)
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
ya'll might as well try to find a religion that fits your ideology coz nothing you or Kath. said has anything to do with the promise of God, fulfilled in the person and work of Christ. He who abides not (ya'll don't even have... so to not abide) in the doctrine of Christ has not GOD paraph. 2Jn 1:9
---steven-rem7000 on 10/1/09


You said of Rod4Him's post ... "The rest is just garbage, wood and straw the will be burn"Alan***

Alan, that's funny. I had a different reaction to that statement...that MarkV was admitting his behavior is just garbage of wood hay and straw that will be burned.

Because that is exactly what it is. you see, MarkV is trying to build on YOUR foundation, which is Jesus Christ, His wood hay and stubble. God never asked us to go around to others IN CHRIST and call them liars, twisters of truth, corrupting God's word etc.

AND as long as MarkV continues to assault God's heritage, I WILL call him on every thing he twists,and corrupts.

MarkV, Gifts are given to BUILD up the Body...not tear it down!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


YES, I believe that Christ's coming has been set back so that more people will have an opportunity to hear and accept the Good News.
However, I don'think he is "late" in coming, rather I believe that in His love He has extended th time of probation some, because He really does not want any of us to be lost. He will however not extend the time any more than He wants to and He will come READY or NOT, like a thief in the night!
---Pierr5358 on 10/1/09


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Psalm,

None of us would be elect without Christ. SO give him all the glory instead of Markv.
He tries to tell people that they get chosen before being in Christ. The word does not say that.
It says through Christ we become the adopted children of God. If it weren't for Christ dying, shedding his blood and rising from the grave, none of us could be adopted by God.
It is through Christ we are elect by adoption through the fact that God foreknew he would send his son to die for mankind and reconile us back to him. God doesn't predestine anyone until they come to Christ!
---miche3754 on 10/1/09


Alan, there is a whining blog made for your complains and your answers to me. I cannot take your complains or answers on other blogs, since I have been sick for a while. And need some spiritual and physical rest from all the complains and Bible twistings, the Bible twisting is worse then the complains though. The complains are just about others who don't like you, the Bible twisting is worse since it concerns the Word of God. I said before, complains are all garbage and have no meaning concerning God.
---MarkV. on 10/1/09


Kathr, Miche:

1 Peter 1:1-2 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens...and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace..."

I do not normally make my theology on one verse but this verse illustrates our differences succinctly.

In THIS verse, who is chosen? Those who reside as aliens. Chosen by whom? by God the Father according to His foreknowledge. Chosen for what? To obey Jesus and be sprinkled by His blood. Cleansed by His blood. Saved by His blood.

Sisters, this is crystal clear. These ones were chosen by God before hand to be saved.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/1/09


MarkV ... Since you brought me into thias discussion, I will make my comment.

You said of Rod4Him's post ... "The rest is just garbage, wood and straw the will be burn"

But it is not garbage ... Rod4Him told the absolute truth when he said to you "You twist their words, you accuse, and you put words into others mouths which were not said"

When will you stop that unpleasant & despicable behaviour?

If you want to model your behaviour on Jesus ... remember He never bore false witness

Sadly false witness is becoming the main plank in your presentation of your views

.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/1/09


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Mark V

Keep up the good work,defend the faith. If only they could see that God is in Charge and he uses everything to do his will. the elect are Loved and chosen to the glorification and the advancement of the kingdom of GOD.

Folks it is not in pride that we make this statement it is to show the Love of God in the context of His word it is He who called you and saved you for his glory not yours. GOD Chose you accept it and get on with advancing the kingdom
---Paslm_91 on 10/1/09


steven-rem,

God never formed ANYONE Righteous out of the CLAY.

We receive the GIFT of the Righteousness of Jesus Christ....We receive HIS righteousness, Paul stating, not having a righteousness of my own by the Righteousness of Christ.

Now we are a NEW CREATION...and that is not formed out of CLAY, but are BEGOTTEN Sons through Jesus Christ!


Those who use these verses in Romans 9 DO NOT UNDERSTAND the GOSPEL!!!

Romans 9...God comparing MOSES to Pharoah...re....why not Joseph to Pharoah? In that case of Jospeh and Pharoah...GOD BLESSES THAT Pharoah, and that Pharoah was not a vessels of WRATH! But rather a vessel by which God blessed Israel! This will happen AGAIN...Romans 11! GET IT NOW??
---kathr4453 on 10/1/09


Steven-rem,
Those verses are about how God can take a vessel made for dishonor- US- and make it one for honor through Christ.
God doesn't do this until we are in Christ. There is no transformation without being in Christ.
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul, the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy, the second man is the Lord from heaven
---miche3754 on 10/1/09


Rod4him, well thank you for your wonderful answer to me. I will take it as I take all the others from Alan, and Kathr. I do not try to please everyone, but to defend the Word of God. I was happy that you didn't find fault in the Word of God I presented, thats really all that matters to me. The rest is just garbage, wood and straw the will be burn.
---MarkV. on 9/30/09


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2 Timothy 2:19-22: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart."

A call to action for whosoever "nameth the name of Christ". Should you not throw those out, rem-rem?
---Nana on 9/30/09


Don't know what bible you are reading out of,(Mich) but if these verses are in it you better cut them out to fit your god.
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
---steven-rem7000 on 9/30/09


TO those who say God only chooses whom he predestined from the foundation of the world or created some destined for heaven and others for hell-

you realize you are saying "NANA NANA booboo GOD saved me but he won't save you! You are destined for hell and there is nothing you can do about it!" to the lost!

Thats NOT the Gospel of Jesus.
He died for the sins of the world that you are "nana boobooing" - HELLO!!
his word says Who soever will repent and believe shall not die but have everlasting life. The gift of Grace is for all who accept it.
Don't forget you used to be part of the world. Where is the love of CHrist that is supposed to be in you?
---miche3754 on 9/30/09


1 Peter 1:18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers,

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, WHO WAS FORORDAINED before the foundation of the world? You or Jesus....JESUS!!!!

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory, that your faith and hope might be in God.

Yes Miche, MarkV here is working OVERTIME now stating EVERYONE was Chosen to try to conform you to Calvin's sick theology!
---kathr4453 on 9/30/09


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Mark V, you're not the only one here who holds to John Calvin's system of predestination. Unless I write a specific persons name, I am writing to readers of the blog. Don't be so self absorbed. One reason for these blogs is to inform people of differing concepts and perhaps where they come from.
You have been corrected by many more capable than me, but you persist in your errors. Your greatest error is in your attitude toward those with whom you disagree. You twist their words, you accuse, and you put words into others mouths which were not said.
Titus 3:9-11. You enjoy foolish controversies...which are unprofitable. You have been rebuked many times.
I want to help people who are open to God.
---Rod4Him on 9/30/09


Funny thing about reformers.....
They make the WORD fit them, they don't conform to the word. Some food for thought on that.

Shawn, Really enjoyed your post.
Markv, stop conforming the word to you and conform to the WORD.
Kath, AWESOME, sis, you are so right.
God didn't choose anyone from the foundation of the world. He chose his Son, and that we who are in him become conformed to him. So, e can't be anything without being in Christ first. Why else would Jesus bother going to hell and ministering for 3 days to Moses and the others?
Mark E, stop listening to people who tell you God only chooses who he wants. God truly wants all of man kind and speaks to every man, he tells them and then leaves it up to them to choose.
---miche3754 on 9/30/09


Everyone in history was chosen by God, not everyone was chosen unto salvation. God is the Potter and everyone is the clay. God formed a plan, that is complete. He is the Alpha and the Omega. The whole plan is before His eyes. Israel was a chosen nation for God to bring salvation to those who would believe. Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith just as the New Testament believers are. The only thing different is the ministry of the Holy Spirit, in the Old T. it did not endwelled believers as He does in the New Testament. God already know the end of His plan and He will not be surprise by anything or anyone who thinks they can change His plan by doing something that He does not already know. God is in control, and Ruler of all.
---MarkV. on 9/30/09


Miche, Kathr:

Ladies, the word is clear. We are chosen for salvation. How can there be service without righteousness, and righteousness without salvation? Mark_Eaton,

Mark_Eaton, Mary was CHOSEN to be the Mother of Jesus Christ..but Mary was not Born Again In Christ until He rose from the dead!

Moses was CHOSEN to bring the Children out of Egypt. Moses was not IN CHRIST at that time. So again he did not have the Righteousness of CHrist at that time.

Of coarse all of these are great saints all through out history...but they were not JUST chosen for salvation.

Paul was chosen to bring the gospel to Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 9/29/09


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Pardon us Mr. or Ms. Moderator we've gotten off on an unrelated tangent. My answer to your question is YES.
---larry on 9/29/09


Rod4him, I suppose you meant me when you said some people follow the teachings of Calvin. I follow the teachings of Scripture, which is taught by the teachings of the reformers. If those teachings you do not follow, then instead of throwing stones explain to me where I am wrong, and why. What teaching did I mention that is not in Scripture in order for you to make those comments?
Anyone can stay there like you and just throw stones without a cause. That is easy to do. I can look at all your answers and throw stones at what you say without mentioning your name. But that would be for my own prideful self not for the glory of God.
---MarkV. on 9/29/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Yes, God is holding back His wrath & shall not hurt the earth til all His Servants(whose names were written in the Book of Life of the Lamb Slain from the Foundation of the world. Rev.13:4-8,17:8) are Sealed with His Living Promise, the Holy Ghost. Rev.7:1-3

God Predestinated His Elect according to His Foreknowledge to be conformed to the Image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many Brethren. Rom.8:29-30

Whom God did Predestinate, them He also Called: and whom He Called, them He also Justified: and whom He Justified, them He shall Glorified : with being Born Again & washed clean of their sins through the Blood of the Living Waters of His Word made flesh, Christ Jesus.
---Shawn.M.T. on 9/29/09


Miche, Kathr:

Ladies, the word is clear. We are chosen for salvation. How can there be service without righteousness, and righteousness without salvation? Of course we are chosen in Christ, or though Christ, for without Christ, how can we be saved? But we are chosen by God before our own existence, before our own salvation. This is the definition of the word foreknowledge.

We were chosen by God before the foundation of the world. If you contend that we were only chosen by God for salvation, then where is the foreknowledge in that? Where is the election in that?

His pro-gnosis is far above our understanding.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/29/09


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Let's be straight up here. There are a few people here who follow the teachings of John Calvin blindly and embrace predestination. In this area, they seem to have the spirit of John Calvin, "burn anyone at the stake who disagrees with them."
This discussion carries on a war of words (Scriptures), whoever can pile up the most verses wins, rather than learning the character of God.
By John's own quoted from scripture words, "by their fruit you will know them."
If one wants to follow John's teaching blindly, one has to answer the question, "how could John agree to burn Michael Servetic at the stake?"
BTW, "God is not willing that any should perish," that reveals God's loving patient character.
---Rod4Him on 9/29/09


"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."
- markv

That was a nice misinterpretation of this verse.
You forget so easily that it says "IN HIM"
and you forget Christ by saying God chose who was to be saved and not saved at the beginning, when God chose Christ at the beginning and we become adopted into the elect through and by Christ if we repent(turn) and honor God. You forget the following verses that say we become adopted.
---miche3754 on 9/29/09


All descendants of Adam are going to hell because of the curse,

.....Only the elect will come to Christ for "the elect is the Church."
---MarkV. on 9/29/09

Hell= grave
The statement above makes sense.

Elect is easiest of all. Heb 8:8, Jer 31:31. Both sides/houses of Israel. Judean side and Divorced side of 10 nations. After all this is who covenant was too. Who all prophets...prophesy about.

Most, so jealous of Jews today (who may not even be Judean)fail to realize..if they have laws in heart and mind....they are "the" people.
If I don't have these marks....it doesn't change GOD's plans. I can learn/apply them. There will be others scripture says. I will be an-other then.
---Trav on 9/29/09


Wow man, the who's, who!

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor, he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
God bless you all!
---TheSeg on 9/29/09


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WOW MarkV, is this the GOSPEL of the GOOD News we are called to preach to the lost?


The answer to the question here is YES, the WRATH of God is held back during this age of GRACE, while we preach to the Lost souls that they can ESCAPE the wrath to come through Jesus Christ.

So, unlike the gospel of calvin's hell, along with his actions to burn everyone at teh stake who disagreed with him, (Calvin's WRATH..not God's) WE preach the GOOD NEWS, that Jesus took the WRATH of sinners upon Himself.

God never asked us to preach what MarkV preaches....

---kathr4453 on 9/29/09


All descendants of Adam are going to hell because of the curse, unless God draws them and saves them through Christ, they will continue heading to hell as it is written. They go to hell because when they knew God, they did not honor Him as God.
All those that come to faith were chosen from the foundation of the world, "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love."
Their names already written on the book of Life from the foundation of the world. Not Kathr or Miche or anyone can change that no matter how much they twist the Words of Scripture. The results will be the same. Only the elect will come to Christ for "the elect is the Church."
---MarkV. on 9/29/09


Romans 9:21 Paul's message is clear, God is Sovereign. The argument comes, that well it isn't fair. Paul says, the Potter can make a vessel any way He wants. He's the Potter and the vessel is simply clay. V. 22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."
---MarkV. on 9/24/09


Paul is saying The Church was prepared beforehand for GLORY, SEPARATED from this world. Only the CHURCH consists of Both Jew and Gentile, having the RICHES that are In Christ.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


Amazing as it sounds, He chose us.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/09

Mark_Eaton, I do believe if you check your facts we were chosen IN HIM. And WHO is chosen here FIRST? And through HIM what/why are we CHOSEN FOR?

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.



Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


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Please Pring> Part 2

Mark_ Eaton, no one is denying God choosing anything. He chose Jacob to be Israel, He also CHOSE Israel. He Chose the Church to reign and rule with Him in the Millenniel Kingdom Reign.

So lets be sure we know WHAT we are chosen for...

God never Chose anyone for salvation....He Chose for Service.

And you see too, OT Israel was too CHOSEN, but was ALL of Israel saved? No..They were chosen for SERVICE. After the church is raptured, Israel will again be CHOSEN, but only a remnant will be saved!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


Yes Mark E, they did, but you are missing THE point that they all taught Election is only through CHRIST.
Before you come to Christ, you aren't elected to anything but Hell and death, a vessel of dishonor.
It is AFTER coming to Christ of your freewill and giving up your freewill to Christ and give Christ all control and he becomes in you and you in him, that you become adopted and an elected son of God. It is through adoption. It is Christ who is prestined and us through adoption through Christ that become predestined.
It is all hand in hand. God didn't pick and choose people from the foundation of the world, he chose Christ from the foundation of the world.
Think about what adopted means, Mark E.
---miche3754 on 9/28/09


Miche, Kathr

Whether you want to accept it or not:

Jesus taught election
John taught election
Peter taught election
Paul taught election
O.T. taught election

You limit God when you say He did not choose us. His abilities are beyond our comprehension.

It is also incorrect to say that only Christ was elected and we are elected when we accept Him. Jesus himself taught election before His death. It also nullifies the election in the OT.

Also, God did not look down history and see that we would accept Jesus and elected us based on that. No, that would make our choice more important than His.

Amazing as it sounds, He chose us.
---Mark_Eaton on 9/28/09


Genesis 12/ Romans 9
SEPARATION: 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

VESSEL OF HONOUR: 2And I will make of thee a great nation, (ISRAEL) and I will bless thee, and make thy name great, and thou shalt be a blessing:

VESSELS OF WRATH: 3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee.

So, Jacob/Israel, Gods vessels of Honor, Abrahams physical descendents revealed the WRATH of GOD ON Pharaoh who cursed Jacob/ Israel and Gods SOVEREIGN promise to them, will again unleash HIS wrath/CURSE to Pharaoh / EgyptAKA:Gentile arrogance, at HIS Return. Zechariah 12-14!
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


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Salvation comes FIRST, individually, not corporately. Israel was CORPORATELY God's vessel of Honour on earth for HIS SERVICE!




2 Timothy 2:20-21

20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21B.If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Purge here Miche means separation...and says if a man purge HIMSELF...Then God will make him a vessel of honour and FIT for His USE!

As was Israel a SEPARATE Nation, used by GOD for HIS USE!. Romans 9.
---kathr4453 on 9/28/09


Amen Kath!
Some here don't admit that we all started as vessels of dishonor. Its through Christ that the Potter remakes the clay into a vessel of honor.
those that dont receive the good news will be destroyed in the end.
Im still wondering why some think that God will remake a vessel to honor without Christ. They believe God chose them without Christ from the foundation of the world to make them a vessel of honor when really none are vessel of honor until they come to Christ. Then God remakes them. Its not God choosing you, then you come to Christ. Thats false and not scripture based. They take the verse about God drawing completely wrong.
And kath You are right, God makes us new after we come to Christ, not before.
---miche3754 on 9/26/09


If the truth were obvious, we would all be in agreement. But it isn't, and we aren't.
---mugwump on 9/22/09

The truth is obvious Mugwump and many, as noted in Romans 1 and other scripture, still reject him.

Believe me Mugwump, it sounds impossilble to us because we have the entire scripture, but people looked Christ the man straight in the eye and rejected him even after witnessing miracles. People actually witnessed and resented miracles.
Seeing is not believing
Faith is believing.
---larry on 9/25/09


Miche, God's WRATH was met in Jesus Christ. So the Good News is, Jesus is the propitiation for the sin of mankind, meaning He took OUR wrath. A just God cannot overlook sin. It had to be dealt with.

The Good News is BECAUSE Jesus took our wrath, we can come to God through Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is that message that God made PEACE through the Blood of the Cross. We are saved from wrath through Him.

However, at a certain point in time..those who are not In Him, those who rejected this UNIVERSAL GOOD NEWS that...Jesus Died for the SIN of the whole world will endure God's wrath.....not because God picked out individuals who were excluded from Christ propitiation...

---kathr4453 on 9/25/09


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the Potter can make a vessel any way He wants. He's the Potter and the vessel is simply clay. MarkV


Yes, the CLAY is Israel.

However Born Again Begotten Birthed by God Sons of GOD, Joint Heirs with Christ, are not CLAY.



Concerning Israel's FUTURE, Paul reminds us again in Romans what was promised:



Jeremiah 18:4
And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
---kathr4453 on 9/25/09


God is long suffering not willing that any of His elect should parish. "Does not the Potter have power over the clay, "from the same lump" to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21 Paul's message is clear, God is Sovereign. The argument comes, that well it isn't fair. Paul says, the Potter can make a vessel any way He wants. He's the Potter and the vessel is simply clay. V. 22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."
---MarkV. on 9/24/09


Thanks miche3754, here are a couple more Scriptures that line-up with the same theme,
Lamentations 3:32-33
But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

39: Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?
40: Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the LORD.

Interesting that Verse 40, "and turn again to the LORD". Sounds like the lost planning their comeback to the Lord! After all, who were John and Jesus calling, if not the lost? Yes, they hear alright.
---Nana on 9/23/09


If the truth were obvious, we would all be in agreement. But it isn't, and we aren't.
---mugwump on 9/22/09


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Good question!! Interestingly God does seem to be holding back his wrath in order for a certain number of the Gentiles to come in. Also I believe he is holding back his wrath in order that in that awesome time of despair the lost(those headed to hell) will be able to reflect of having had ample opportunity to be saved. Second Thessalonians 2:10,"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." Many many go unsaved because they receive not love of the true!!! Out witnessing we encounter them all the time.
---mima on 9/22/09


Indeed, and even the Lord stated that many will be called but few received, yet their being chosen is not on whim. All men stand to gain the Lord's favor as Paul declares in 2 timothy 2:21: "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." That, as well as brotherly love and common faith, Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
---Nana on 9/21/09

Just wanted to say, Awesome post my brother!
---miche3754 on 9/22/09


God has never intended to save all man-kind. But, I do believe that the reason He has not allowed all hell to come down upon us is because of some He will save.
---catherine on 9/22/09


GOD HAD MERCY ON ALL OF US! HE SENT CHRIST!
Those called beloved/us are because we are in Christ!
Kath is right. Some removed him from the Gospel.
What about Nineva? didn't God send Jonah to tell them that if they don't repent God will destroy them? Didn't God give them a choice?
WE are elect/chosen because we chose to accept the gift of God that was sent for ALL of man kind.
SOME have misinterpreted the entire message of becoming elect. Its Christ that was chosen from the foundation of the world. If you don't go through HIM you won't be saved. SOME don't understand how God even saves people. How can anyone tell me anything when they deny what even Jesus has said?
Salvation IS FREE AND OFFERED TO ALL MANKIND!
---miche3754 on 9/22/09


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"But [nevertheless] in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour."
---josef on 9/20/09

Indeed, and even the Lord stated that many will be called but few received, yet their being chosen is not on whim. All men stand to gain the Lord's favor as Paul declares in 2 timothy 2:21: "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." That, as well as brotherly love and common faith, Matthew 18:20: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
---Nana on 9/21/09


God's wrath is a misconceived notion .In early biblical history the personality of God fails to be accurate consistent with the personality of Jesus.
Jesus never said ,"an eye for an eye"is the right thing to do.Many old prophets and teachers misunderstood but in time they progressed in their understanding.Jesus was asked by his apostles to send down wrath upon this town they were kicked out of and Jesus replied ,"ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of".
Paybacks and revenge is inconsistent with his nature and personality as Jesus teached it.
Todays many natural events are are viewed as God's wrath.
What God constructs a torture chamber for his children to last forever?
---earl on 9/21/09


Miche, God saves individuals, not all of mankind. He already told us many are in hell and many more are going there already. Unless God has mercy on any, they will all go to hell. They were born with a sin nature, and have rebelled against God, having enough knowledge of Him and yet when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God. He revealed Himself to such a degree that everyone is responsible for the revelation, and thats why the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness.
Josef passage about God not been slack concerning His promise, (promises are for believers) but is long suffering toward "us" because in the context we need to know who he means by "Us"" in 2 Peter 3:9,
---MarkV. on 9/21/09


Miche 2:
When you read verse 6 of 2 Peter 3 you will see that the "us" are the "beloved" and the beloved are the believers, brothers. And when you go to 1 Peter 1:1 you will see that Peter in both letters is speaking to the "elect" according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ," So He is not willing that any should parish, and all come to repentance. 1 Peter 1:3 Again he mentions "Us" "who according to His abundant mercy has begotten "us" again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"
---MarkV. on 9/21/09


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I agree wih both of your posts.
I asked this because certain people keep saying that God made some people to NOT be saved. It just baffles my mind that they believe that Jesus only died for some and not all and if this were true, our gifts of ministry are in vain. They believe that God hasn't given man a choice and refuse to see ALL man was born into iniquity, and that if they don't turn to God, theyll die. It seems like a trick of the devil who says, "well, God can only save those who HE chose, the rest is for me, and they will die in the lake of fire with me".
Do they really believe that the devil is stronger than God,would let any man perish or let the enemy win?
---miche3754 on 9/21/09


Miche, the Apostle Paul wrote that it is God's will to save everyone. So you are probably right.
---mugwump on 9/20/09


Miche3754, quite possibly. "The LORD [is] longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing [the guilty],..[It is of] the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not 'willing' (purposing) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. But [nevertheless] in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth, and some to honour, and some to dishonour."
---josef on 9/20/09


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