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Is Theistic Evolution Blasphemous

Is Theistic Evolution blasphemous?

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 ---jerry6593 on 9/25/09
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Cluny: "I can outBible you in 17 versions and 3 languages."

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
---jerry6593 on 10/3/09


1stCliff the long-ages belief predates the development of dating methods. The foundational belief is uniformitarianism, i.e. the forces acting now are those which have always acted. Therefore as we do not see kind-to-kind evolution occurring today it must happen too slowly to observe. Therefore the earth must be ancient. Speculation!

This belief holds the fossil record catalogues life from the very beginning, over imagined long-ages, which record shows death, disease, and suffering of sentient beings. The gospel is founded upon death being an intruding 'enemy', brought into the world by and after Adam's sin. If death of humans stretches back through the ages the NT is wrong and the gospel undermined. Can't have it both ways Cliffy.
---Warwick on 10/3/09


Cluny, you may be the greatest Bible scholar of our age, but how boastful you are! See James 3:13-17. Conversely I do not claim to be an expert but my advantage is that I believe Scripture to be absolute truth.

You boast of your great linguistic and Biblical knowledge but apparently this has brought you little understanding of Scripture. Is not our Christian walk about faith, not knowledge? See Hebrews Chapter 11.
---Warwick on 10/3/09


\\Cluny, some of you guys are giving me an overdeveloped sense of my status. You have exhalted me to a Godly position. Feels uncomfortable.

I quote Scripture and you infer I wrote it. I didn't, I just trust it. Give it a try, it would be a new experience for you!
---Warwick on 10/2/09\\

You're only flattering yourself.

I can outBible you in 17 versions and 3 languages.

Don't start.
---Cluny on 10/2/09


Warwick, Long ages (not millions) does not undermine the gospel, just your interpretation.
How would you "rule over" millions of sharks,geese,cats etc...(illustrate)
In your local meat packing plant do they kill, pillage and destroy creatures???
Maybe in your neighborhood,but here, we have inspectors to see that all is done "humanely"
You say "stick to scripture" then say I should "imagine..."
It's good to have it both ways, huh!
---1st_cliff on 10/2/09




Cluny, some of you guys are giving me an overdeveloped sense of my status. You have exhalted me to a Godly position. Feels uncomfortable.

I quote Scripture and you infer I wrote it. I didn't, I just trust it. Give it a try, it would be a new experience for you!
---Warwick on 10/2/09


Warwick:

That was my point. Where the Bible is silent, we can speculate, but can't create dogma out of silence.


jerry6593:

I called you a "theistic non-evolutionist" (i.e. you believe in God but not evolution), and you said "no, we Bible-believers". Since we both agree you don't believe in evolution, the specific definition of evolution is irrelevant to why you said "no".

As far as "theistic evolution" classically meaning God's hand is involved continuously: that is not what I mean by the term, nor (as far as I am aware) do any mainstream theistic evolutionists (See wikipedia). Can you document any t.e.'s who DO believe in "continuously"?
---StrongAxe on 10/2/09


\\ 1stCliff we will progress when you accept Scripture as our only authority and that long-ages views undermine the gospel.\\

Paraphase of Warwick's words, "We will only make progress when you admit that I'm right and you're wrong."
---Cluny on 10/2/09


StrongAxe, thanks for the correction, just a typo.

As to the overabundance of animals I am confident God knew Adam would sin and that under the curse, natural selection and other forces, would control population growth.

As to eye colour I speculate that our original ancestors had brown eyes. A genetecist reading this may confirm that it is possible to get blue eyes from brown, but not brown eyes from blue. As far as I understand it all eye colour (other than the albino pink) is effected by a brown pigment called melanin. Very little gives blue, and lots gives dark brown, with all the other shades in between. Isn't God amazing creating blue eyes with a brown pigment.

Pure speculation, of course.
---Warwick on 10/2/09


Axey: "Why no?" The word "evolution" implies a slow unfolding development. The scriptures I quoted indicate a sudden, fiat creation. God even wrote with His own finger that it took only six days to create "heaven and earth and all that in them is." (Exo 20:11) So you have to make a choice to believe the writings of God or those of Darwin. They cannot be reconciled on this point.

"Why contradictory?" "Theistic evolution" classically means God's hand involved continuously in the evolutionary process. If He is continually involved, then it does not develop "all by itself."

C'mon Axey, this stuff is not that deep!
---jerry6593 on 10/2/09




Warwick:

You are right. Just because scripture is silent about the creation of Adam's eyes, it would be ludicrous to imagine that he had none. But it would be equally ludicrous to make other statements about his eyes (such as "they were brown" or "they were blue" either) without other evidence. The only time we can infer something from silence is when such silence is deliberately conspicuous.

As far as being in control: if creatures never die, their birth rate must eventually be virtually zero to avoid overpopulation.

(Also, the verb is 'radah', Hebrew has no 'j' sound).
---StrongAxe on 10/1/09


\\ Cluny do you imagine that as Satan quoted from Scripture that this somehow devalues the truth of God's word?\\

Only that quoting from the Bible gives no intrinsic superiority to the one who quotes it.

Did you think it did?
---Cluny on 10/1/09


1stCliff we will progress when you accept Scripture as our only authority and that long-ages views undermine the gospel.

Do you imagine because Scripture does not say God created Adam's eyes he had none? We program our crude computers with a form of 'knowledge and understanding.' Cannot Almighty God programme humans with real knowledge and understanding? Your antiBiblical mind-set blinds you.

'Dominion'-the Hebrew is 'radjah' 'to rule over.' Consider for a moment how God rules. To imagine He is telling man to kill, pillage and destroy is ludicrous.

You also imagine God is not in control of His creation and would allow it to become 'knee deep in rabbits,cats,dogs,mosquitoes,flies, deer,buffalo etc if none died!'
---Warwick on 10/1/09


Alan 'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' Romans 6:23

As you know Jesus paid the 'wages' the price of sin by dying upon the cross. This definitely was physical death.

If you read Romans ch.'s 5 and 6 you will see it explains that Adam's sin brought death (physical and spiritual.) The above quote shows Jesus death and resurrection 'the gift of God' brought us eternal life. Those forgiven will live physically forever, and praise God for that!'

Liberals believe Jesus only died in some spiritual way which makes no sense. they rob the cross of its power.
---Warwick on 10/1/09


Cluny do you imagine that as Satan quoted from Scripture that this somehow devalues the truth of God's word?

Jesus and the apostles quoted from or alluded to the Book of Genesis 200 times, as recorded in the NT. And always as historical reality, obviously. They focussed upon what it does say not upon that which it doesn't say.

You wrote '.. the Church functioned in all her fullness before ONE WORD of the NT was written down.'

True but they had the OT, the Word, and His apostles with them didn't they? And the Holy Spirit. What more could they want!

From what I have read quite a lot of the NT was written within a few decades of Jesus' resurrection.
---Warwick on 10/1/09


Warwick, Now were getting somewhere!
You "fill in" orally what's lacking in scripture. There's no mention of your supposition that God explained death!How do you explain death to someone who has absolutely no concept??
Having seen animals live and die , no explanation would be necessary.
We would not be able to move on this planet,knee deep in rabbits,cats,dogs,mosquitoes,flies, deer,buffalo etc if none died!
What did God mean "Have dominion over the animals"???
---1st_cliff on 10/1/09


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\\1st_cliff: It appears that cluny has studied at the school of Lee. His religion is composed of things the Bible does not say, and is opposed to things that it does say.
---jerry6593 on 10/1/09||

And just what do you think Christianity is all about?

One of the things that burdened Christ was all sorts of people coming up to Him telling Him what the Bible said. Did you notice the only ones who quoted the Bible to Him were Pharisees and demons?

OTOH, the Church functioned in all her fullness before ONE WORD of the NT was written down.
---Cluny on 10/1/09


jerry6593:

Why "no"? Aren't you a theistic non-evolutionist? You believe in God, which makes you a theist (as opposed to an atheist), and you don't believe in evolution, which makes you a non-evolutionist.

How does my definition contradict the definition of theistic evolution? i.e. God created the mechanism by which species develop, and then lets it operate by itself as designed? Non-evolutionists already believe in similar mechanisms (for example, childbirth is a natural biological process whereby a few cells create an entire individual, earth orbits sun without strings tied to God's hands).


1st_cliff:

Genesis is silent on days 8 and later. (If this is still day 7, so much for 24 hour creation days).
---StrongAxe on 10/1/09


1st_cliff: It appears that cluny has studied at the school of Lee. His religion is composed of things the Bible does not say, and is opposed to things that it does say.
---jerry6593 on 10/1/09


Earl, you have said all that's necessary to understand you have little faith in God.

'There is no biblical scripture challenging creation story authenticity simply because in its day of fabrication by imagination man had yet to develop to investigate his enviroment.'

The 'imagination' is yours-based upon what? Jesus the Creator, always quoted from or alluded to Genesis as fact. You are saying He lied.

To expain the basis of marriage He quoted from Genesis 1:27, and 2:24 in one sentence, with no hint they were 2 accounts of creation, and clearly showing Genesis is the historical foundation for marriage. If Genesis 1 and 2 are not historical reality then there is no Christian basis for marriage.
---Warwick on 10/1/09


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1stcliff your inability to comprehend and believe the absolute power of God is stunning.

You must imagine God told Adam and Eve death was the penalty for disobedience, but was unwilling or unable to tell them what death was!

Living in a perfect world where animals and man were vegetarian, death would be shocking, and 'the last enemy to be destroyed', as Scripture says. To someone living is such a world the death of an animal/s would be a startling example of the cost of sin-the wages of sin is death. As in the horror of Jesus' death.

Your error is somewhat akin to Lee's belief that God told the Israelites to rest the 7th day or be put to death, but did not tell them when the 7th day was. What a dreadful God some follow!
---Warwick on 10/1/09


<< Jesus did say "my Father has kept working 'till now ,and I keep working" doesn't mean creating with respects to our planet....it's a big universe out there!
What new thing has been created here???>>

I'm sure we'll find out in due time.

Meanwhile, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature."

Have you ever read C. S. Lewis's chapter "The next step in evolution" from his MERE CHRISTIANITY?
---Cluny on 9/30/09


Cluny, I made the statement,if wrong ,the onus is upon you to cite the scripture that says creation continued!
Jesus did say "my Father has kept working 'till now ,and I keep working" doesn't mean creating with respects to our planet....it's a big universe out there!
What new thing has been created here???
---1st_cliff on 9/30/09


||On the 7th day God "rested" ceased,desisted from creating , as far as this planet is concerned.
Nothing new has been created since!||

And on what grounds do you say that?

Prove from the Scripture that God did not resume creating on the 8th day.

||Some of us quote scripture, but you quote works of FICTION! How strange for a Christian.||

So does that keep the thought from being true in itself? Are you DENYING it's the same miracle?
---Cluny on 9/30/09


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Axey: "Theistic non-evolutionists believe God created everything by hand." No, we Bible-believers believe that:

Psa 33:6-9 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. For he spake, and it was done, he commanded, and it stood fast.

"[The] universe ... is capable of developing newer and more complex forms all by itself" Kinda contradicts the definition of theistic evolution, doesn't it?
---jerry6593 on 9/30/09


Cluny: "Whether it took many centuries or six days, it's still the same miracle."

Some of us quote scripture, but you quote works of FICTION! How strange for a Christian.
---jerry6593 on 9/30/09


Strong Axe, There's just one thing wrong with that theory...On the 7th day God "rested" ceased,desisted from creating , as far as this planet is concerned.
Nothing new has been created since!
Sub-creation was not ongoing!
When satan and his crew are finally obliterated,this planet can sustain life forever!

"Be fruitful ,multiply and fill the earth" mandate is yet to be accomplished!
---1st_cliff on 9/29/09


||Theistic evolutionists believe God created a universe that so sophisticated it is capable of developing newer and more complex forms all by itself - something MUCH more wondrous and complex.||

When God said, "Let the earth bring for grass...whose seed is in itself," it seems to me that means He included the mechanism of plants adapting to different environments and conditions.

And yet, would all things living not trace back to the initial act of creation?

The only thing being argued over is the time scale, which is, all things considered, not the most significant part of it.
---Cluny on 9/30/09


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Related to what Cluny just said:

Anyone who has ever done any kind of engineering can tell you it is MUCH easier to make something than to build a machine that can make it. For example, it's easier to build a car than an automobile assembly line, or to write a letter than to make a word processor.

Theistic non-evolutionists believe God created everything by hand. Theistic evolutionists believe God created a universe that so sophisticated it is capable of developing newer and more complex forms all by itself - something MUCH more wondrous and complex.

Essentially, theistic evolutionists' God is MUCH more wonderful and powerful and intelligent than non-evolutionists's God. So whose faith is weaker and whose is stronger?
---StrongAxe on 9/29/09


\\Sounds like you believe in more "miracles" than I do. I only believe in 6 days worth of them, but you believe in millenia of miracles. How funny.||

As Anna Leonouwens said to the King of Siam, "Whether it took many centuries or six days, it's still the same miracle."
---Cluny on 9/29/09


earl: "There is a trail of development-progress and there are sudden changes along the way." And what are the motivating forces behind such sudden changes? Certainly not random mutation/natural selection - both of which supposedly take extremely long periods of time to operate. Sounds like you believe in more "miracles" than I do. I only believe in 6 days worth of them, but you believe in millenia of miracles. How funny.
---jerry6593 on 9/29/09


jerry ,
there is a term I use ,that fits my views on creation and evolution.It is sometimes called progressive evolution.The term is defined in various places .However I am not in complete agreement with any current definitions of progressive evolution life establishment on earth except one that I read years ago.You may by chance read where I have said progressive evolution from a earlier post.
Life establishment , brief ,is not spontaneous ,not accidental.There is a creator-force-energy that makes life and maintains life.There is a trail of development-progress and there are sudden changes along the way.There are life branching progressively and there branches known not to develop.
---earl on 9/28/09


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jerry,it that all?
---earl on 9/28/09


Jerry It is apparent that you also are a good tap dancer, but it is also apparent that you are no scientist, and have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to evolution.

Where is the requirement for one to be a scientist in order to understand the theory of evolution?

While you may have a degree in Physics, it has been obvious that you have never taught the subject nor kept up with the latest theories in physics.

Besides it is more in the field of biology that one learns & studies the various theories concerning evolution - and it is apparent that you know little concerning that scientific field of endeavor.
---Lee on 9/28/09


earl: It is apparent that you are a good tap dancer, but it is also apparent that you are no scientist, and have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to evolution.
---jerry6593 on 9/28/09


people don't believe the Bible:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
Exd 31:17 It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you, even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
---MIchael on 9/27/09


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Warwick and Jerry,Ponder this,p1.
Theistic evolution or sometimes called christian darwinism acceptance hinges on possibly this point.They hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not conflict or contradict.
Well,
Evolution ,to some,is spontaneous,accidentalwithout a master blueprint and without the aid of an energy source for life development-it just happened.
Life evolution is through one's current collected observations at present date.
next page.
---earl on 9/27/09


P.3.
Generally, evolutionists state every living thing leaves a trail of evidence back to a origin-beginning.
Generally,creationists state God created any and all living things as they are known. No trail of evidence is tracable to a origin-beginning.Both agree on certain adaptations.It is for creationists-"kind follow kind".
The conflict is generally "trail or no trail" of evidence and God is /is not the source from where life springs.
In basic, theistic evolutionists may attempt to agree there is a trail and God is the source for all life.However,
From the previous basic definitions the two will remain conflicting-they cannot meet reasonable compatibility.
---earl on 9/27/09


Warwick, Scripture please,where animals (creatures) were promised immortality, contingent upon Adam's fidelity????
The 1st law with a penalty (death)was "don't eat from the tree.." The law was broken and the penalty was carried out!
Cursing the "ground", pain in child birth,hardship of life,were "add-ons" indicating God's frustration with Adam's disobedience!
---1st_cliff on 9/27/09


P.4.
If christians maintain the creation story is true then at least they can do is to re arrange the creation sequence of events, which I believe is not in order, into a more acceptable chronological order.
The beatitudes have a similiar disorder.Once corrected it reads well and makes greater sense.
---earl on 9/27/09


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jerry,
The topic, is there desecration of scripture by theists who value some form of evolution?
At the core of my replies is the out of sequence creation days and their time frames and how unrealistic they are.
The items you have listed that you think I should consider answering (your counter to evolution concepts)is threading away in that I do not know your or anyone's definitions here of evolution and of creation .I think your question is more suited in another post .This is about theists who value an alternate view of life establishment on earth .
---earl on 9/27/09


||
A question for Cliff 'n Cluny.

Do you believe the curse was pronounced only upon mankind?

If you do believe it was pronounced upon the whole of creation, how did this affect animals?
---Warwick on 9/26/09||

I'm not the one claiming that animals didn't die before the Fall.
---Cluny on 9/27/09


Warwick,You are deliberately ignoring the "natural food chain" created by God,the evidence of which is overwhelming!
Sure the Adamic sin affected all creation (flora and fauna)to some degree (due to the curse) as ALL men are born sinful now!
Huge herds of elk,deer, moose, caribou etc flourish despite the long harsh winters ,because they are not carnivores!
The snowy owl,wolf,snow leopard,coyote's natural diet is "game" (same environment)
The spider's ability to spin a web is not for the beautiful pattern. Get it?
---1st_cliff on 9/26/09


Warwick,
Question 1.-Ans.Did not say Genesis as a whole .You misquoted.
Q-2.Ans.It is obvious the bible is not faultless.Any one can pen the creation sequence and live happily ever after.People re pen the bible very frequently.And the outcome is oversimplified inconsistent scripture.
Q-3.Ans.From todays common knowledge of general education God would be foolish to get the sequence out of order.
Q-4.Ans.Adam's sin,etc.is not part of this subject.Creation Sequence is.
Gen.1.11 references shows no comparrison to sequence of events before or after-irrelevant.
---earl on 9/26/09


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Warwick, On the last blog you went to great lengths to describe the shock and horror, Adam and Eve must have felt, never having witnessed death.right?
This poses a problem-to wit-How could they be culpable, not understanding the penalty??
On the other hand ,having seen creatures live and die,they had no excuse for not understanding their demise!
Above all things God is "Just" is He not?
---1st_cliff on 9/26/09


Warwick,
There is no biblical scripture challenging creation story authenticity simply because in its day of fabrication by imagination man had yet to develop to investigate his enviroment.Once he did it has become obvious there are inconsistencies and errors in history.It is obvious that challenging tribal traditions in that day were not considered.
No scripture needed ,the problem is obvious.
---earl on 9/26/09


"However 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death"

What death is that? Physical death? Death of the body?

Did Jesus promise that He would conquer that, and free us from that?

---alan8566_of_uk on 9/27/09


earl: "Evolution ,(any),even if greatly incompatible with my personal belief is much more common, sensible and realistic than a hocus pocus magic miracle."

Oh really! At its core, evolution is built solely on a foundation of hocus pocus, magic, conjecture and outright fraud. Explain (if you can) how evolution explains just a few of the following "miracles:

1. Abiogenesis
2. Absence of Cambrian precursors
3. Multi-mile unconformities and
Overthrusts
4. Polystrate trees

When you're finished with these "miracles," I have more for you to explain.
---jerry6593 on 9/27/09


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Earl this is easily settled. Can you show me one Scriptural reference which suggests Genesis is not historical truth?

Actually Jesus and tha apostles quoted from or alluded to Geneis 1-11 107 times and always as historical fact.

You are clearly saying your opinion, or man's opinions are the arbiter of Biblical truth. Can you show me one Scripture which gives man this power?

You wrote 'To God and everyone this writer who wrote the creation sequence is not believable ...' Can you give me one Scripture which agrees with this unbelievable statement?

'Jesus mission was ministry not history.' Are you saying Adam's sin, the curse and Jesus, God's remedy, are not all historical?

Four questions for you Earl.
---Warwick on 9/26/09


Earl this is easily settled. Can you show me one Scriptural reference which suggests Genesis is not historical truth?

Actually Jesus and tha apostles quoted from or alluded to Geneis 1-11 107 times and always as historical fact.

You are clearly saying your opinion, or man's opinions are the arbiter of Biblical truth. Can you show me one Scripture which gives man this power?

You wrote 'To God and everyone this writer who wrote the creation sequence is not believable ...' Can you give me one Scripture which agrees with this unbelievable statement?

'Jesus mission was ministry not history.' Are you saying Adam's sin, the curse and Jesus, God's remedy, are not all historical?

Four questions for you Earl.
---Warwick on 9/26/09


2) Evolution contradicts a literalistic interpretation of Genesis, however, according to Roman Catholicism and most contemporary Protestant Churches, biblical literalism in the creation account is not mandatory. Christians have considered allegorical interpretations of Genesis since long before the development of Darwin's theory of evolution, or Hutton's principle of uniformitarianism. A notable example is St. Augustine (4th century), who, on theological grounds, argued that everything in the universe was created by God in the same instant, and not in six days as a plain reading of Genesis would require.[4] Modern theologians have advocated what has become known as the literary framework interpretation of the days of Genesis.
---lee on 9/26/09


Warwick,
Your reply is welcomed.
"....what we will and what we won't believe".To God and everyone this writer who wrote the creation sequence is not believable and it ,I believe with common sense,is not your/our(God's) work.Simple observations -common sense is not requiring experts on the events.
Again Jesus' mission is ministry not history.Yes,There was some remarks and references to history by apostles.This is not backed up by quotes by Jesus.This then is inconsistent .
Evolution ,(any),even if greatly incompatible with my personal belief is much more common, sensible and realistic than a hocus pocus magic miracle.
---earl on 9/26/09


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Cluny why not stick to the point?

I was writing about T/E undermining the gospel. Correct? Surely the gospel concerns man, not animals. Whether sin brought death of animals into the world is another matter.

This is called missing the point!
---Warwick on 9/26/09


1stCliff, yes let us talk reality! Whether Adam's sin brought death to animals is another issue. Let us do something new (for you),stick to the point!

The point being T/E and other nobBiblical views place death of man before Adam's sin therefore undermining the gospel.

Jesus and His apostles believed Adam's sin to be historical reality, the reason Jesus came to die. The wages of sin is death.

How therefore can we believe what He says of heavenly things, the promise of the gospel, if we don't believe what He says about earthly things.

'I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel.' Galatians 1:6
---Warwick on 9/26/09


A question for Cliff 'n Cluny.

Do you believe the curse was pronounced only upon mankind?

If you do believe it was pronounced upon the whole of creation, how did this affect animals?
---Warwick on 9/26/09


Isa 48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning, and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them, I did [them] suddenly, and they came to pass.
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof, because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
---MIchael on 9/26/09


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\\ Theistic-evolution (T/E) undermines the gospel by postulating death is as old as life. However 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death but if the fossil record is correct then death is no enemy but what God used to create. Scripture is therefore wrong!
\\

The death that came into the world through the fall of Adam was NOT the death of animals or plants.

You have not offered any proof from the Bible that death came to ALL creatures--only assuming so.

This is called eisegesis.
---Cluny on 9/26/09


Warwick, "How can you believe the heavenly things if you don't believe the earthly.."
True!
One of the "earthly" facts is that Adam's sin caused "man's" Death...not creatures who's natural life cycle is living and dying.Rom.5.12 Death spread to all MEN because they have all sinned" Right?
Do animals sin???
Did Christ die for the pigeons and warthogs???Come on now!
Let's talk reality here!
---1st_cliff on 9/26/09


\\Cluny you may be convinced that your ancestors were primates or less but mine and others were not.\\

So you're saying that you believe that your first ancestor was a lump of dirt?
---Cluny on 9/26/09


1) Theistic evolution and evolutionary creationism are similar concepts that assert that classical religious teachings about God are compatible with the modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life.
---lee on 9/26/09


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Theistic-evolution (T/E) undermines the gospel by postulating death is as old as life. However 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death but if the fossil record is correct then death is no enemy but what God used to create. Scripture is therefore wrong!

If death (including humans) occurred before sin, Scripture is again wrong! See Romans 5:12,14, 6,23, and 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

T/E postulates a contradictory order of creation to Genesis-if T/E is correct the Bible is again wrong.

Jesus believed Genesis was historical fact. In John 3:12 asks how can we believe Him about heavenly things if we don't believe what He says about earthly things! True.
---Warwick on 9/26/09


Atheist you're back!

I tend to agree with you, except for your use of 'literal.' I believe the corect interpretation of Scripture is to take it at face-value (like any literature) unless the language suggests it should be interpreted otherwise. If you read 'On the first day of my holiday it rained cats and dogs', I am sure you could tell what was meant to be taken at face-value, and what was a figure of speech.

I see nothing in Genesis that marks it as anything other than a sober historical account. I am not suggesting you must believe it is historical, but that whoever wrote it expected it to be taken that way.

Ultimately all views of origins, evolution or creation, are faith positions.
---Warwick on 9/26/09


Earl as a Bibie-believing Christian, ex-agnostic, I do believe that all there is was created by God's power just a Genesis says.

Conversely I do agree with scientific facts as they have been proved via the scientific method which involves observation, testing and retesting, obviously in the present. Beliefs about the past, whether long-ages/evolution or creation are not scientific facts.

As Christians on what possible basis can we tell God what we will and what we won't believe?

On what basis can you say anything Scriptural is fact if it all isn't? Did the apostles or Jesus ever suggest Genesis (for example) is not historical fact? Just the opposite!

It all comes down to faith-evolution or creation!
---Warwick on 9/26/09


For those interested Google '10 Dangers of Theistic Evolution' by Prof. Werner Gitt. Easy to read, not long and informative.
---Warwick on 9/26/09


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\\ Cluny, your definition of evolution is vague and overlooks the appearance of life from nonLife, which cannot be disconnected from naturalistic evolution.\\

And did I say I believed in naturalistic evolution?

Please re-read my original posting.
---Cluny on 9/26/09


Cluny said, "There was not spontaneous creation of everything at one instant, but first there was one thing, then there was another, and then there was a next, all by stages."

What you do not see is more complex things coming from simpler things. Cluny you may be convinced that your ancestors were primates or less but mine and others were not. People came from the special creation by God as all things did.
It is sad that Atheist wrote more intelligent statements than Cluny did on this subject.
---Elder on 9/26/09


Warwick .."your definition of evolution is vague and overlooks the appearance of life from nonLife, which cannot be disconnected from naturalistic evolution"

That's in your view & understanding. But that's like a person who loves (or hates) all sea food saying to someone else "You don't like mussels, so that means you do not like prawns or cod"

Although you find the two inevitably hang together, others may not.

If someone believes that 'God-created Life from non-life' may have been followed by 'God-guided developments (some sort of evolution)' that would not for them undermine the Gospel
---alan8566_of_uk on 9/26/09


A theist: "You can then go on to enjoy and explore the wonderment and mystery of the universe through science without feeling that perhaps you have surrounded yourself in 'false belief' and have need of an Inquisitor to provide for you penance through confession and torture."

I always enjoy your posts. They're so direct, blunt and humorous. I agree with your point - only from the opposite direction. I am a scientist, schooled in the unsatisfying evolutionary paradigm, and know first hand the persecution meted out to those who won't bow at the alter of Darwin. Once the blinders were off, I became free to explore the scientific mysteries of God's creation. Question Darwin with the same vigor as you question God.
---jerry6593 on 9/26/09


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Cluny, your definition of evolution is vague and overlooks the appearance of life from nonLife, which cannot be disconnected from naturalistic evolution. How did massive amounts of genetic information spring, by naturalistic prosesses.

There is no such thing as simple life forms as the single cell is amazingly complex. We are composed of these complex cells so are no more complex than them. We have more, different, but not more complex, genetic information.

Genetic information is not part of cells but imposed upon them-not a material thing.

God is Almighty therefore needs no time/evolution to create. His Genesis description of creation is opposite to evolution.
---Warwick on 9/25/09


Warwick,This universe did not become what it is with miracles as you may possibly postulate.I do not agree with all scientific facts.Neither do I agree with all religious ones.To counter either one I should be able to provide at least a reasonable option providing current understanding of the topic.The "story" leaps past and over common rules in life development.Fundamentalism and literalism of scripture will quickly falter when someday the Garden of Eden and it's age will be discovered .
---earl on 9/25/09


\\It clearly undermines the gospel so should, on this count alone, be rejected.
---Warwick on 9/25/09\\

Saying so doesn't make it so.

No, it's clear.

Please clarify.
---Cluny on 9/25/09


If as a 'believer' you don't feel compelled to take the bible as the literal and absolute word of 'god', you can, as Mike Huckabee said, believe that evolution is how 'god' did it. You can then go on to enjoy and explore the wonderment and mystery of the universe through science without feeling that perhaps you have surrounded yourself in 'false belief' and have need of an Inquisitor to provide for you penance through confession and torture.

If you think the bible to be the literal word of 'god', then 'theist evolution' is not only oxymoronic, but blasphemous as well. In that case then maybe you should press for more vigorous application of public punishments for 'sins'. Let the stonings begin. Rock on!
---atheist on 9/25/09


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Warwick,You say "it"-(theistic evolution) "undermines the gospel".In the gospels Jesus did as John wrote,"to reveal the Father".History is not ministry.
Because everyone has personality unique from another is is most ordinary that one does not "see" like the other. This is not distraction to true believers as it may appear to you .Faith surpasses the uncertainty .Revelation clarification is progressive in the minds of those who open it.Simple observation of the genesis creation story is obvious uncertainty of truth in relation to sequence of creation events.Reality is -the written sequence is unrealistic.
---earl on 9/25/09


The Holman Bible Dictionary says 'Blasphemy' comes from a Greek word meaning to speak harm. 'In the Biblical context blasphemy is a attitude of disrespect that finds expression in an act directed against the character of God.'

Theistic evolutionists consider the fossil record (one of death disease and suffering) is the record of God's creation extending back billions of years.

It is has no Scriptural support and is contrary to the goodness, and perfect nature of God.

It is a misplaced attempt to align Scripture with 'science' by Christians who believe 'science' has proved the earth to be billions of years old.

It clearly undermines the gospel so should, on this count alone, be rejected.
---Warwick on 9/25/09


Well . . . if there were to be "theistic" evolution, I understand this would mean God started with little cell beings and then He controlled the process of these cells giving rise to plants and animals, then monkey creatures to humans. And the Bible does say God started with plants, then water and flying creatures, then land animals, then humans. So, there was an evolution, of some sort . . . in how He progressed. If there were genetic progression through it all, it would be with Him "reaching" through the genes and managing the outcome. I consider that now God is operating through our genes, multi-tasking through genes more than scientists can detect, since His ways are "past finding out." (Romans 11:33)
---Bill_bila5659 on 9/25/09


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