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Atheism Loves Evolution

How close is the connection between Evolution and Atheism?

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 ---jerry6593 on 10/3/09
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Lee, you create a straw-man argument. You are saying that we need to have a degree, or a masters or Ph.D to be able to talk on a subject. Not so, I know numerous experts, in many fields who have no formal qualifications. And others while holding a Ph.D/s are experts in other fields.

I do have a good knowledge of Scripture, both via formal education, and long study. I also have a broad scientific knowledge of science, languages and litetature both from formal education, and long study. Am I boasting? Not at all, as I am an expert in none, but do not need to be to show your errors.

I am not interested in opinions but in what the word of God says. You do not argue against man, but against God.
---Warwick on 10/9/09


Mark:
Bible: Earth before sun, stars-Evolution: Stars,sun before earth
Bible: Earth water covered initially-Evolution: Earth molten blob initially
Bible: Oceans first then dry land- Evolution:dry land then oceans
Bible:First life on land-Evolution:First life in oceans
Bible: Plants created before sun-Evolution: Plants came long after sun
Bible: Fish + birds created together-Evolution: Fish formed long before birds Bible: Land animals created after birds-Evolution: land animals before whales
Bible: Man + dinosaurs lived together-Evolution: Dinosaurs extinct long before man appeared
Bible: Big Bang future-Evolution Big Bang past

Opposites!
---Warwick on 10/9/09


Atheist, I have not seen Jerry 'touting' his credentials.

I noticed the self-proclaimed superior-intellect, Lee, claiming Jerry was not qualified to write on scientific matters. Jerry pointed out he does.

I do not believe Jerry or other Scientists who believe in Biblical creation 'ignore' scientists who believe otherwise. He as I, disagree with their interpretations which don't come from the scientific method, but from their a priori starting point.

Consider 2 scientists at the Grand Canyon. Would they interpret the evidence the same way? Would not their foundational beliefs cause them to interpret the evidence differently? This is not ignoring.

You though do ignore, ducking most questions you are asked.
---Warwick on 10/9/09


1stCliff, these are figures of speech. We are not obliged to take them at face-value here or in any literature.

King Henry the 5th is quoted as saying 'Let us fill the breach with English dead.' Do we need to imagine a castle wall, breached, then filled to the brim with dead Englishmen, to understand his meaning?

I once met a man who said he was 'broken-hearted' but X-Rays exposed no break.

Did not Jesus, likewise, use figures of speech?

BTW they knew the earth was an orb, God told them.

Your continuing repugnance towards the word of God is startling but confusing as on other issues you stand for its truth! Strange.

Own up to what? You are wrong. You are getting better at it!
---Warwick on 10/9/09


Warick,

Jerry's been touting his credentials for the last year. Again you need to keep up.

Why I accept Jerry's claims because of his 'credentials' anymore than Jerry accepts the consensus of the thousands of other crediential scientists he choses to ignore?
---atheist on 10/9/09




Warwick are you a tag-team with Jerry?

Lee challenged Jerry about his scientific credentials and Jerry supplied them.

While my graduate degree is in one of the scientific fields - mathematics & physics, the discipline that involves itself in evolutionary theories is not in those areas.

Jerry should also realize that since he claims his degree is in physics.

Neither can you boost of your expertise in the scientific arenas as your degree is more in the philosophical arena. Col. 2:8

All you can do is to read and study these issues and offer an opinion, i.e. you prove nothing thro you think unwisely your interpretation of scripture has to be the correct one.
---lee on 10/9/09


Warwick, You're way off the mark on this one.
These are not "figures of speech"
Job38.4 "where you there when I LAID the EARTH'S FOUNDATION?"
v.6 "where the footings set?""or who laid it's cornerstone"
v.13 "take the earth by it's EDGES and shake the wicked out.." The earth has no EDGES ,it's an ORB (but they didn't know that!)
Job.9.6"He shakes the earth from it's place and makes it's PILLARS tremble"
No double meanings here! Own up just once ,huh!
---1st_cliff on 10/9/09


Jerry:"Were you even an amateur scientist, you could look up the combined probability calculations for the self-organization of even the simplest single-celled creature by random processes."

What has that got to do with the theory of evolution? The theory of evolution deals with the changes of living things over great periods of time. It says nothing about the probablity of a single cell spontaneously appearing out of a chemical mix.

Since you are the real scientist, why don't you write a paper that can be accepted after scutiny by the larger scientific community? You might get a Nobel prize...?
---atheist on 10/9/09


Doesn't anyone who agrees with evolution every exercise faith in the Word of God? When God said, "Let there be light" He didn't go on to explain for us how He created that light. He spoke and it was done. The Bible says, "and there was light" And again, He didn't explain how He divided the light, only that He did. Your arguements come because you want to reason how they just became light. God did not write every word so that you could reason with Him. He said it, and it was done. When God says, He created the heavens and the earth, He does not go on to explain each planet, sun, or Milky way, which came first or last, He just spoke and it was done. As soon as He said it was done. What is there to reason?
---MarkV. on 10/9/09


Atheist are you a tag-team with Lee?

Lee challenged Jerry about his scientific credentials and Jerry supplied them. Now you are saying he keeps 'touting' his scientific credentials.

Tag-team!
---Warwick on 10/8/09




A theist: "Does it scare you not to 'know'"

Ah, but I do know. And since you claim not to know, you must be agnostic rather than atheist.

Were you even an amateur scientist, you could look up the combined probability calculations for the self-organization of even the simplest single-celled creature by random processes. Or perhaps you could even understand the chemical enigma that exists in the synthesis of simple organic proteins.

But, I imagine that you find it easier to bash the God you refuse to meet and remain forever ignorant of His creation, and the natural laws and processes by which it operates.
---jerry6593 on 10/9/09


1stCliff actually both my headlights and taillights do project their light via reflectors. Did you imagine the automotive light we see comes only, and directly from a globe?

As to 'foundations' have you never heard a person talk upon the foundations of democracy per example?

Have you never heard someone described as a pillar of society?.

These are all common figures of speech as are-my right hand man, sunrise, sunset, raining cats an dogs, bored to death!
---Warwick on 10/8/09


StrongAxe God defined what 1 day and saying He created in 6 of these. The Israelites were to work for 6-days because He created in 6-days. This is why He 'wasted' 6 days. Nothing in Scripture, grammar or logic leaves room for the days to be billions of years.

The fossil record, as interpreted by evolutionists shows creatures which evolved and disappeared. Blind alleys leading nowhere. Wasteful!

Almighty God doesn't need Billions of years to achieve His ends.

Further the fossils show death, disease and suffering. Would God create this way and then pronounce it 'very good?'

The long-ages view undermines the gospel placing death before sin. The NT must be wrong! See John 3:12
---Warwick on 10/8/09


The currrent form of evolution, called Neo-Darwinism has no place for God.
Warwick

Amen and Amen!

No place for God is, as Don Henley would sing "the heart of the matter".

Warwick, the sad thing is how we sit in death (temporary) and make vain attempts to understand life (eternal).
Pagan science and evolutionists errantly believe life ends at death when it really just begins. Having committed such great error and blasphemy its no wonder everything is backwards.
They believe the egg proceeded the chicken when in reality its the other way around.
---larry on 10/8/09


Warwick, Some night when a cop pulls you over and says "did you know you have no tail lights?" Your reply "but I have reflectors, they're just the same, right?"
He will give you a citation for your brilliance!
Job says the earth has a "foundation" with "pillars" holding it up .You believe that too? or that snow and hail are kept in a storehouse in the sky? Or that the ocean has "flood gates"???
That's what they believed and that's what they wrote!
In fact "Job" is attributed to Moses.(like Genesis)
---1st_cliff on 10/8/09


Jerry,

That I wrote: "You keep touting your credentials as a scientist," is not a "personal" attack, it is a fact. Do you read what you write?

Gee Jerry, I just don't know. Why are you asking me such a complex and profound question? Why do I have to have an answer to it? Okay: Life came to be through natural causes yet to be explained. Satisfied. Does it scare you not to 'know'.

Darwin was a scientist. No! Darwin wasn't a scientist. Yes! No!

Excuse me, but what does it matter? He's dead, and he hasn't written any papers lately that are subject to peer review based on current observations and theories.

Are you a 'real' scientist, but he was not?
---atheist on 10/8/09


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Warwick:

You seem to think that taking a long time to do things is wasteful. If speed is of the essence, why did God waste 7 whole days creating the universe, instead of doing it all at once? Why did God wait several thousand years before sending his son, instead of doing so immediately after the Fall, in order to minimize suffering and misery? And why wait several thousand more before his second coming?

The answer to these questions is that God's was are not our ways, and what we think "makes sense" or "doesn't make sense" is based only on our very finite perspective.
---StrongAxe on 10/8/09


I wonder how many people here know that Charles Darwin was originally supposed to prepare for ordination in the Church of England?

\\You would have us believe you know what Adam, created perfect, could achieve.\\

Eastern Christianity teaches that Adam and Eve were created in a state of undeveloped innocence. They were to grow into perfection.

(Consider: A healty baby is "perfect" as far as it goes, but is not complete or perfect. It is not what it will grow into.)
---Cluny on 10/8/09


1st_cliff
But those that penned Gen. had no concept of space.
Not Moses, Christ, not even God. But those!
Very nice! A true believer!
Everything you see is a reflection of light! Everything!
Even the sun!
No one here can see light! Well maybe one.
God Bless!
---TheSeg on 10/8/09


1stCliff, to the Christian, Scripture is, as it claims to be, the inspired word of God. It is not limited by human knowledge. You presume to know what knowledge the ancients had and assume Genesis is not from God.

The moon is a light,(Heb. 'or') but not a light maker, which is 'ma'or.' The crystals in a chandelier are not 'light' but are there to reflect the light in all directions so as to maximize the available light.

You would have us believe you know what Adam, created perfect, could achieve. Very presumptious. God has carefully defined how long one day is, and told us what Adam did. By faith I believe. But you have little faith.
---Warwick on 10/7/09


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StrongAxe a poor comparison. Edison had an idea and had to work upon it.

Conversely God is Almighty, knowing the end from the beginning and is able to create perfectly the first time.

Why would our Almighty God need to spend years developing a fish? Is He not powerful enough to get it right the first time.

I can just see Jesus the Creator feeding the 5,000. Just wait a month and I will have lovely bread and fish. Woops got it wrong that time. Just wait another month and...

Jesus life was the antithesis of a waste.
---Warwick on 10/7/09


Rusty having absolute faith in God I believe Genesis creation because that is what He says.

Some religions say little about origins. A few have somewhat-evolutionary notions. I believe God's word alone is Truth, and there is no room for evolution therein.

The currrent form of evolution, called Neo-Darwinism has no place for God. It concerns naturalistic processes, the opposite of supernatural creation. Therefore an atheistic belief. Some Christians propose God used evolution however Scripture disagrees. Nothing in Scripture even hints at evolution. Why would Almighty God use such a slow, wasteful and violent method ('Nature red in tooth and claw, as Tennyson described it), to create? Did any of God's miracles need lots of time?
---Warwick on 10/8/09


A theist: Please don't descend into personal attacks ["You keep touting your credentials as a scientist."] as answers to serious questions. You are better than that. At least two such questions remain unaswered by you:

1. What is your explanation for the beginning of life on earth? I sense that you don't like Warwick's two choices, so come up with one of your own. As an atheist, I'm sure you've determined this in your own mind years ago.

2. Do YOU believe Darwin was a scientist, and why?

(I've got more when you answer these.)
---jerry6593 on 10/8/09


Warwick:

When Thomas Edison made 2000 attempts to make a light bulb before he finally got it right, he didn't think it was a waste of time, he said he learned 1999 ways to NOT make a light bulb. When we hear about evolutionary dead ends, we assume that the creatures that did not survive were a waste, but we can't necessarily make that judgment. We don't know why they were there, nor what niche they filled. The same applies to people - we can't say that people's lives were a waste because they didn't have any descendants. By that kind of logic, one would conclude that Jesus's life was a waste because he didn't father any descendants.
---StrongAxe on 10/7/09


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God called into being light during the first'day', but then did He have to wait until the 24 hours were up before He decided to call into being the dry land, and then wait until another 24 hours were up until He could call into existence the vegetation? I hardly would think so as He is not limited by our concept of time and could have called the entire creation into being in less than a 24 hour period.

Of course, those that contend for the young earth creation theory cannot accept the belief that God is not limited by our concept of time for that may indeed destroy their arguments against those that have evolutionary theories, esp. those that hold God ordered the evolutionary processes.
---lee on 10/7/09


Jerry,

You keep touting your credentials as a scientist. Tell me, as a scientist can you say words, "We just don't know yet," about anything. Or, do you have to have an explanation based on a mythology you personally believe?

I don't remember where I was before I was born and can't remember no matter how hard I try. But I don't feel the need create an explanation based on some 'belief' of where I will be after I die.

So are you afraid of not 'knowing' certain things or are you afraid of being 'dead'?
---atheist on 10/7/09


Warwick, No God is not ignorant of anything ,but those that penned Gen. had no concept of space.
I merely pointed out that saying the moon was a "light" is incorrect, even tho we know what was meant. There's only one light which is mirrored by the moon!It gives off sunlight but it itself is not a light ,now is it?? Fess up!

By the same token insisting that "day" has to mean 24hr, "ain't necessarily so " (Porgy and Bess) Especially day 6! (too many events for 24hr time envelope) God could do it but not Adam!
---1st_cliff on 10/7/09


Warwick - If what you say is true, you still haven't answered my question about how so many other religions look at the facts and accept evolution. Are they atheistic also?

Who are you to say that god didn't create humans through evolution? You say you can trust scripture but then how come there are so many contradictions in it? You cannot say you can only trust god because you trust other people every single day: driving, flying, eating, doctors, etc.
---Rusty on 10/7/09


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Warwick:

Arguments of the form "Any reasonable person must believe that..." are logical fallacies called "Argumentum ad populum".

From the dictionary:
1. interval of light between two successive nights, time between sunrise and sunset
2. light of day, daylight
3. Astronomy:
a. Mean solar day. 24 hours - average period earth rotates about axis
b. Solar day. Time elapsed between two returns of the same meridian to the sun
c. Civil day. Division equal to 24 hours but reckoned from one midnight to the next.
4. Analogous division for a planet other than the earth: the Martian day.
5-15. (related to counting time)
Note that the ONLY definitions involving 24 hours also rely on the sun.
---StrongAxe on 10/7/09


1stCliff no one who submits to God, and His word could write 'Back in that "day" they thought the moon was a light and the stars twinkling little lights, not planets millions of light years away!'

It appears you believe God was ignorant of reality?

In all the languages I know when the word day is coupled with a number it means a 24hr day.

I will repeat my sentence and maybe it will eventually sink in. 'In my father's day (1), by driving all day (2), he drove across Australia in 10 days (3). Now tell me which use of 'day' means a 24hr day?

Are you saying that because the moon is a reflector that it does not light the night?
---Warwick on 10/6/09


Atheist, evolution is an attempt to explain how all there is came into being without any supernatural input. surely this is a given?

Biblical creation explains how everything came into being by supernatural power.

There is no trick in this or in my question. You appeared to be saying they were not the only options and I asked you to provide another scenario.

BTW you still have not answered my question about what positive things atheism has given to the world.
---Warwick on 10/7/09


A theist: I could be wrong, but it appears to me that you are waffling in your response to Warwick's question. What is your explanation for the beginning of life on earth? I sense that you don't like Warwick's two choices, so come up with one of your own. As an atheist, I'm sure you've determined this in your own mind years ago.
---jerry6593 on 10/7/09


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Evolution describes a process by which higher forms of life evolve from lower forms...StrongAxe.
StrongAxe..discriptions and process arguments don't matter if they are not true. The answer to the question on the connection between Evolution and Atheism, is pride. Since Belzebub's rebellion the beat goes on.
Evolution at its core is an attempt and sad facade to deny God worship. For the creature owes the creator and this can't be tolerated - i.e. pride and hence Atheism.
.
Let's discuss anything but who God is, right? God in speaking with Jeremiah said "let us reason together." There is nothing reasonable about the hilariously silly and verbose defense of spontaneous biogenesis.
---larry on 10/6/09


StrongAxe evolutionists view the fossil record as catalogueing evolution over eons. Definitely slow.

Wasteful: when interpreted via evolutionary thinking it shows countless numbers of evolutionary failures. Dead-ends, going nowhere.

Violent: catalogues untold, constant brutal death. I remember seeing a human skull, pierced by a large cat's teeth.

It also catalogues serious diseases.

Is this consistent with Genesis 1:31 where God said His finished creation was 'very good? Makes sense with 6 day creation but makes God an ogre if the fossils show His creative process.

God is eternal, by definition outside of time.

Violence, suffering and wastefulness are the result of Adam's sin, part of the curse.
---Warwick on 10/6/09


Warwick:

The concepts of "slow", "wasteful" and "violent" are very subjective, as is the notion that all of these are "bad". What is "slow", since a day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day? What is "wasteful"? One could just as easily look at humans and other living beings, and look at their means of eating, excreting, reproduction, etc. and find them humorous at best and wasteful at worst. Earthquakes and volcanoes are violent. Does that mean God didn't make them, because you don't like violence?
---StrongAxe on 10/6/09


\\How any Christian would imagine our Loving, Almighty God used such a slow, wasteful, violent prosess, beats me.\\

Is not six days equally "wasteful" for a God Who could have created everything simultaneously and instantaneously? Or are you implying that God is so limited He could not do that?

Since God created time and it is His possession, He is free to do with it what He wishes.
---Cluny on 10/6/09


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Warwick, While you're being dogmatic about the sentence structure insisting that a "day" has to be 24hrs, consider this=
Gen.1.14 says God created two "lights" one for day (assumed to be sun) and one for night (assumed to be moon) Right??
The moon has no light,it is simply a reflector of sunlight. Technically it is wrong! the moon is not a "light" but a reflector!
Back in that "day" they thought the moon was a light and the stars twinkling little lights, not planets millions of light years away!
---1st_cliff on 10/6/09


Rusty Christians should trust that only God knows absolute Truth, and therefore trust all of His word.

Nowhere in Scripture will you read anything which supports evolution. In reality Scripture contradicts evolution. Why would a loving Almighty God use such a slow, wasteful and violent process such as evolutionists propose? If you understand the implications of the evolutionary belief you should understand.

Who should the Christian trust?
God who cannot lie, who makes no mistakes, who was there at the beginning, and who knows everything? Or man who lies, makes mistakes, knows very little, and was not there at the beginning?

Do we trust, a perfect eye-witness or hearsay?
---Warwick on 10/6/09


Warwick:"You ducked a question, again.
Either we arrived here by naturalistic processes. Or we arrived by supernatural creation. If you believe there is a third method please tell us."

I did not. I refuse to agree with your equivlancy that "natural processses" equals "chance."

I am not confused. I am pointing out the philosphical conundrum you have put your argument in. Making a decision is an "event". If you make that decision by "chance" or "design", (i.e.,presumably by 'god'), you, as in Warwick, really had no control or choice about that decision. Neither is anything I or you write or think or do.
---atheist on 10/6/09


Atheist "The conclusion is that events happen either by chance or design."

You ducked a question, again.
Either we arrived here by naturalistic processes. Or we arrived by supernatural creation. If you believe there is a third method please tell us.

"So if you concluded that the "event" of you chosing "design" as the cause of the "event" of making the choice, you had nothing to do with making the "conclusion", because your conclusion was previously "designed" to occur."

A little confused Atheist, your meaning eludes me.
---Warwick on 10/6/09


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Cluny you have not yet shown me to be wrong on anything, so I cannot be wrong again.

You are to an extent correct as even the ancient Greeks believed in a form of evolution.

However the modern 'scientific' view of evolution as espoused by Dawkins et al is a purely naturalistic prosess with no place for, nor any need of, God. Ask Dawkins. Evolutionary text-books don't mention God's input.

How any Christian would imagine our Loving, Almighty God used such a slow, wasteful, violent prosess, beats me.

"Even before Darwin, there were many God-fearing Christians who believed that evolution was the mechanism God used." References please.

Regards,

Your personal pop-evangelical polemecist!
---Warwick on 10/6/09


1st_cliff:

To be precise:
1) Gen 1:1 does not mention God's spirit, nor does it mention waters
2) Gen 1:2 mentions God's spirit moving over the waters, but not over the earth.


larry:

Evolution describes a process by which higher forms of life evolve from lower forms. It has absolutely nothing to say about how the earth got here (that is cosmology), nor does it have anything to say about the existence or non-existence of any God or gods (that is theology).

One could similarly complain about the books of Chronicles and say that they don't mention God creating the earth. It's true that they don't, for good reason - they're about something completely different.
---StrongAxe on 10/6/09


Jerry,

One definition of scientist---"A scientist is a person who is an expert in one of the sciences: biology, physics, chemistry, history, etc. Scientists study the world, do experiments, create theories, and write about them in papers."

Ashley Montagu," A scientist believes in proof without certainty, a bigot certainty without proof."

And so why would not Darwin not have been a scientist? Did he ever claim to be certain?

What you do is play with the word, claiming that some scientists are not scientists and therefore their ideas are trash. The advancement of 'science' does not hinge on the certain ideas held by any one 'scientist', but an evolving concensus of many based on continuing research.
---atheist on 10/6/09


I have a simple question for the creationists here. How is it that lots of other religions accept evolution and see it as part of god's plan? Explain the entire Catholic Church and it's understanding and acceptance of evolution. They look at the evidence and conclude that evolution did happen, why don't you just look at the evidence and maybe you will see it also?

If evolution is atheistic, then there wouldn't be the majority of religions that accept it.
---Rusty on 10/6/09


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A theist: "Those who call themselves "scientists" but you claim are not "scientists" are not scientists."

OK, let's cut to the chase. Do YOU believe Darwin was a scientist, and why?
---jerry6593 on 10/6/09


Warwick:

Miracles are translations from the supernatural to the natural. That is, some event occurs that violates the normal laws of nature, but afterwards the consequentes follow natural laws. For example, God createe life, but afterwards, life reproduces after its own kind. Miracles are meaningless without the natural component. For example, why would God bother raining fire on Sodom if the fire didn't then subsequently naturally burn the city to the ground?

The big debate in evolution is about when the natural process started, not if it started.
---StrongAxe on 10/5/09


Cluny, As regards "water"
Gen1.1 says Gods Spirit moved over the surface of the earth and the "waters"...
Life cannot be sustained without water,it was (according to 1.1) created with the surface of the earth...a no brainer!
---1st_cliff on 10/5/09


\\
StrongAxe, as evolution is at its core an atheistic belief,\\

Wrong again, Warwick.

Even before Darwin, there were many God-fearing Christians who believed that evolution was the mechanism God used.

It's only pop-evangelical polemecists like yourself who gratuitously assert an instrinsic connection between evolution and atheism.
---Cluny on 10/5/09


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Cluny, I was replying to your 'dirt' from which God made Adam. Certainly God makes things from existent matter however Genesis 1:1 shows He created space, time, and matter from nothing. In Hebrew 'bara.'

But what is your point?

'This anticipates present scientific theory, which says that life originated in the sea.'

But Genesis says life began on land. The order of creation in Genesis is opposite that proposed by evolutionists.

'Nowhere do you find, "Let there be water."'
Nowhere do you find let there be oxygen, nitrogen, helium' Your point?

In Genesis 1:1 the word for earth 'eres' in context means 'the earth.' And as we know the earth includes rocks, soil, water and an atmosphere.
---Warwick on 10/5/09


Warwick:"The conclusion is that events happen either by chance or design."

So if you concluded that the "event" of you chosing "design" as the cause of the "event" of making the choice, you had nothing to do with making the "conclusion", because your conclusion was previously "designed" to occur.

Likewise, the "event" of me chosing "chance" was not actually my choice since my choice was determined by "chance".

Perhaps the "natural" universe has the appearance of "design" when we look deeply enough at it, negating the need for a "supernatural force".
---atheist on 10/5/09


Catherine you are right. Evolution is part of the biggest lie every created which is at its core says God is not God.
We must understand the idea of a creator and moral agent is intolerable to the non-believer no matter how unreasonable the theory of evolution.
Atheist however are not without faith. The idea that Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen and other trace elements could by chance combine from a bang to create individual human personalities, attitudes and an inate sense of love, survival, right and wrong is so preposterous it takes more faith than belief in the resurection or many of the world's errant cults.
---larry on 10/5/09


Atheist people have discussed this for a very long time. The conclusion is that events happen either by chance or design. Our universe and all that is in it either came about by supernatural (design) forces or by naturalistic (chance) forces.

It must be obvious that those who say there is no God cannot believe in a supernatural creator. Therefore an atheist can only believe all we see came about by naturalistic, evolutionary forces. Simple.

You can philosophize all you like but can you propose a third scenario?
---Warwick on 10/5/09


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StrongAxe, as evolution is at its core an atheistic belief, life must have arisen by naturalistic forces. The whole deal, the universe, matter, life and all creatures arose by naturalistic forces. The story begins with the Big Bang, to spontaneous generation of life, appearance of animal kinds, and man, then on to today. It is a whole-convenient to call it evolution as one part depends absolutely upon another.

Some Christians believe God used evolution to create. This is contrary to evolution, which needs no God. Also contrary to the nature of God, and is contradicted by Scripture. It undermines the gospel. Jesus said if we cannot believe Him about earthly things how can we believe Him about heavenly things-John 3:12. How indeed?
---Warwick on 10/5/09


StrongAxe said "Evolution is a disipline that attempts to explain how life evolved out of non-life."

StrongAxe, this is an incorrect statement. Evolution does not explain the origin of the first life nor is it meant to.

Also the question of the blog is easy for me to answer. I was an atheist before I ever knew about evolution. I grew up in a religous family but never thought any of it was true. I didn't learn about evolution until around 14 years old and that was well after I rejected any idea of god. However I do think evolution makes it easier for a believer to become an atheist.
---Rusty on 10/5/09


"The fool has said in his heart,
.'There is no God.'
.They are corrupt,
.They have done abominable works.
.There is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)

This was written before Darwin came out with his theory of evolution. And I can see these ones who said there is no God had their motives > they wanted to do what they pleased, and not answer to You. But we have people saying "God won't lead you to brush your teeth," things like this > saying there is no God who is interested in us enough to personally share with us and guide us in everything we do. So, isn't this also a sort of atheism? Proverbs 3:5-6, Isaiah 58:11, Philippians 2:13, Colossians 1:29.
---Bill_bila5659 on 10/5/09


Jerry,

But of course...

People who you call "scientists" and call themselves "scientists" are scientists.

Those who call themselves "scientists" but you claim are not "scientists" are not scientists.

What could be more simple...
---atheist on 10/5/09


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Warwick:"Atheist, Atheism cannot exist without evolutionism."

No. One cannot say that if you don't believe this, then you must believe that.

There are billions of questions that can be asked, only a few having answers that reasonable and educated people would agree make sense, and far fewer still that either of us can answer reasonably.

There are many questions therefore that an honest person must say, "I just don't know."

That answer doesn't make one ignorant, and doesn't force him to assign the answer to a actions of a supernatural power, much less your particular and peculiar concept of 'god'.

To pretend otherwise is dishonest...
---atheist on 10/5/09


Warwick:

Evolution is a disipline that attempts to explain how life evolved out of non-life (whether by natural selection or by special creation or by any other theory). It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to say about how matter arose from non-matter. That is cosmology, which is a totally different discipline.
---StrongAxe on 10/5/09


\\
But our God created from nothing as Genesis says, and still does. No problemas.
---Warwick on 10/4/09\\

As a matter of fact, according to Genesis ALL life was not created ex nihilo.

"Let the earth bring forth grass...let the waters bring forth..."

This anticipates present scientific theory, which says that life originated in the sea.

Furthermore, according to Genesis, water apparently was pre-existing. Nowhere do you find, "Let there be water."

Read it!
---Cluny on 10/5/09


A theist: "How dare you assign motives to the work done through hundreds of years by thousands scientists across a multitude of diciplines?" [??]

What scientists? Darwin and Huxley were no scientists.
---jerry6593 on 10/5/09


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In actually one has very little to do with the other.

Atheist do not believe in god [not in caps as applying to any deity].

Evolution is that individual species evolve and mutate to adapt the conditions of the environment in which they exist, and that is really what Darwin wrote about.
---The_Friendly_Blogger on 10/5/09


Atheism is far older than the theory of Evolution and can be found in ancient Hindu and Greek texts. This is enough to show that atheism doesn't need evolution to exist.

There are religious evolutionists (Francis Collins, Ken Miller), and even atheists who don't believe in evolution (David Berlinski). This shows that one doesn't require the other.

The only reason they are so closely linked in people's minds is because religious people make it so.

If the bible is taken literally, most of physics must be challenged as well, including the idea that the earth orbits the sun, or that the stars are millions of miles away.
---Travis on 10/4/09


Atheist, Atheism cannot exist without evolutionism. Either we arrived here by supernatural creation (God) or naturalistic evolution-no God. I am sure there are atheists who have never thought it through. Having worked in the scientific field for decades I am aware evolution is not a theory, by the scientific definition, but a belief or philosophy. Please show how evolution qualifies to be called a theory.

Having numerous scientist friends and acquaintances I am aware they go about their work without reference to evolution. One friend works at designing and installing of satellites in space, another at developing new varieties of fruit. Evolution does not come into it. This is hard science, separate from philosophies and beliefs.
---Warwick on 10/4/09


Saying that life came by "accident" is on an equal par with---Webster's unabridged dictionary was the result of an explosion in a printing plant! duhh!
"It could happen"...only in fiction!
---1st_cliff on 10/4/09


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For evolution atheism goes hand in hand, kissy-kissy. Just another instrument that devil uses to get some peoples minds off & away from God, some people he surely has.
---Lawrence on 10/4/09


Cluny, FYI we are composed of 50% water, some trace elements , I believe it's about the same formula as 7 gals. of sea water, ,anyway, All God had to do was "enliven"it with His Spirit and voila! a human!
My post was that inanimate objects could never create their own life!
It's not difficult to find the chemical composition of creatures,they are all products of our earth!
---1st_cliff on 10/4/09


I am sure the connection is very close. One lie thrives on another,usually. Evolution is a lie and an atheist lives in a liars paradise. They go hand in hand. They are cousins
---Robyn on 10/4/09


Cluny the earth God made Adam from was earth He created, ex Nihilo.

I imagine 1stCliff was referring to the scientific dictum that matter cannot be created or destroyed. Nonetheless evolutionists believe matter created itself. Maybe some consider matter is eternal? Sounds a bit religious! Eternal God or eternal matter?

But our God created from nothing as Genesis says, and still does. No problemas.
---Warwick on 10/4/09


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//cause and affect..life never comes from inanimate objects..even these objects came from somewhere.//

Was not the lump of dirt Genesis says God made Adam from an inanimate object?
---Cluny on 10/4/09


It is neck to neck. Evolution is the biggest lie ever told by man. Do you know what's going to happen if this next generation falls for this lie? There will be no fear of God at all! And no fear of God, no regard for man, which means a man's life will have no worth at aLL. EVEN WORSE THAN IT IS TODAY, MY FRIENDS. We have kicked God out of schools, government, even churches, and told Satan to come on in, and he came in with a vengeance. Believe you me, you either have God or you have the devil, and God is not going to stay where is is not wanted. So, therefore, this country is like a sitting duck without God's protection. And you did it.
---catherine on 10/4/09


Warwick:"How close is the relationship between evolution and atheism? One cannot exist without the other."[Nonsense. One can not believe in 'god' without accepting evolution as a theory or a fact, or even be aware of it.]

"Evolution is a philosophy" [It is a theory.]
"created in the attempt to explain how all there is could have come about without a creator God. A human attempt to make God redundant." [How dare you assign motives to the work done through hundreds of years by thousands scientists across a multitude of diciplines?]
---atheist on 10/4/09


It's all very basic..cause and affect..life never comes from inanimate objects..even these objects came from somewhere.
Antares is 350 million miles in diameter (cannot fit between here and the sun)where did it come from???
Ans.- from the great cause YHVH He who causes to be!
Alternatively- Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit!
---1st_cliff on 10/4/09


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How close is the relationship between evolution and atheism? One cannot exist without the other.

Evolution is a philosophy created in the attempt to explain how all there is could have come about without a creator God. A human attempt to make God redundant.

There is no Bible in evolution, and no evolution in the Bible.
---Warwick on 10/4/09


Do I detect someone trying to set up guilt by association?
---Cluny on 10/4/09


Evolution is defined as "A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form, or a change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection... resulting in the development of new species."
Atheism is "the doctrine or belief that there is no God, or
a disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings."
The only connection I can see is the atheist using the theory of evolution in an attempt to explain what they can not explain in any other way.
The only definition of evolution I believe has any semblance of validity is as in "any process of formation, growth, or development."
---Josef on 10/4/09


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