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Adam's Choice To Sin

Did Adam and Eve have the choice to sin or not sin?

Moderator - Of course. Do you always make the right choice or do you decide to sin at times?

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 ---miche3754 on 10/6/09
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And trav, where did you get the idea that it was a role swap? ---miche3754 on 10/14/09

I didn't get the idea it is in scripture. Here I'll post it.

40And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother, and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

41And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand, then will I slay my brother Jacob.

Esau did just about every thing he could to disobey his father/mother. Some more grevious than others.
---Trav on 10/14/09


Also Mark E., It is God's plan that is foreknown and predestined.
He has two.
1. Whosoever will hear the call and accept and be conformed to Christ is predestined to be saved.

2. Those who who refuse to hear the call are conformed and predestined for God's wrath.

God gives man 2 choices. Period. No in between. And Kath and Ralph are very right.
It is God's PLAN that is predestined and foreknown NOT man.
---miche3754 on 10/14/09

Ms preacher woman. Where is the scripture to match your opinions....
Every prophet prophesy's the above too....right?
This would be meat for the table. Set us a meal...yoplait is for baby's.
---Trav on 10/14/09


--Miche:

Sister, You were sharing where in scripture your understanding believed God's identifying mark is our names written in the Book of Life.

....and you responded back to me on 10/13/09 with......"Shawn, Moses told the Israelites to mark the lentil posts so that the death Angel would pass them over? He is our passover! We are "marked" by him for eternal life!"

......but this isn't synonymous with when our names were put in the Book of Life.

The Passover is synonymous with us being cleansed & reborn by the Blood of Chris, the marking of the post is synonymous with when we received Christ & God's Seal of Promise. Eph.1:13-14, Rev.7:2-3
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/14/09


Ralph, you did not read enough. Your comments are not helping the cause of God. Kathr did say,
"Shawn MT, I'm totally confused. The LAMB was slain from before the foundation of the World."
I was the first one to mentioned that was not so. That He was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" because if He was slain before the foundation of the world it would be a heretical view, since it would change the whole of the gospel, since an imposter would have been on the cross and not Jesus. He had to die a human death then and there. If He died before the foundation of the world then there is no need for the Cross, and his death would not be a human death. Think Ralph for the right reasons.
---MarkV. on 10/14/09


MarkV, To take OT scripture speaking to ISRAEL, not Gentiles, and apply to individuals today is a gross, false accusation against God, and His Character. OT Israel was under a conditional Covenant, the Law of Moses. The other Covenants, not yet fulfilled, are unconditional, apply to Israel. You failed to read the END of the Story. In the Story of the 3 pigs...the WOLF did not in the end eat the pigs!!! To tell half a story is to tell half truths, also known as LIES!


Have you read ALL the OT? You may want to read Hosea, Zechariah, Ezekiel 36, Isaiah 14, and other places where God WILL forgive and bring revival to Israel, the Nation!

WE are not under the LAW of Moses and are not JUDGED by that law!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/14/09




Miche, Kathr, Ralph:

You are all leaving out one very large item. Election.

The "elect" is a concept going back in the Bible through most of the OT, into the NT, all the way into the Revelation.

The concept is consistent and taught by Jesus. There are those "elected" or "chosen" by God without them having any part in it. Like the children of Israel.

Miche, your statement "It is God's plan that is foreknown and predestined" is inconsistent with this verse:

1 Peter 1:1-2 "...who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood..."
---Mark_Eaton on 10/14/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brothren lets get one thing very clear, I'm not here to flatter or impress anyone. I'm here to share & receive the Truth of God's Word. So, Don't think for one minute that glory is going to you. All Glory goes to God!!

Ralph, To say "The LAMB Was Slain & His Works Finished from BEFORE TFOTW", is incorrect. These things didn't happen BTFOTW, they were Foreordained to happen BTFOTW because as you pointed out, NOTHING EXIST BTFOTW but God's Plan.

Until today Kathr never even mentioned Foreordained Plan. So, It you Brother who are confused.

Where I once didn't understand, now I do because I'm able to admit my errors and humble myself before the Lord to ask for Forgiveness.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/14/09


Shawn T, first, thank you for not only been patient but for explaining the Word of God in a simple way.
One thing people have difficulty in is, knowing the character of God. Sometimes we just trust, and believe in His Word, and not add because we don't understand.
It reminds me of Habakkuk dealings with God. In his prophesy, he cries out to God and says, "Oh God, oh God bring a revival, God bring a renewal, Your people, save your people," And God answers him and says, "I'm going to come to My people, only I'm not going to save them I'm going to wipe them out" And his reaction is, "what kind of God is that?" This is the people of your covenant" and God answers,
---MarkV. on 10/14/09


Shawn T, #2: "Not only that I'm going to use the Caldeans" These people were worse than the people. So now he's not only wondering why God doesn't bring a revival, two, why is God going to punish people of His love, and three, why is He going to use a worse people to be the executioner. And God gives no answer.
So finally Habakkuk just steps back of his dilemma, and he says, "God thou are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look upon iniquity." in other words God you are too Holy to make mistakes, You have to react against sin, then he calls God the Covenant keeping God, the Almighty, and surrenders to nothing but faith and trust in God.
---MarkV. on 10/14/09


Also Mark E., It is God's plan that is foreknown and predestined.
He has two.
1. Whosoever will hear the call and accept and be conformed to Christ is predestined to be saved.

2. Those who who refuse to hear the call are conformed and predestined for God's wrath.

God gives man 2 choices. Period. No in between. And Kath and Ralph are very right.
It is God's PLAN that is predestined and foreknown NOT man.
We are given a choice by God which is God's sovereign right.
---miche3754 on 10/14/09




Colo3: 1-4
YE are DEAD, and your LIFE is hidden with GOD IN CHRIST, and when CHRIST, who IS YOUR LIFE shall appear, you will appear with Him in GLORY...Where/what is GLORY.

No one is saved today unless they are IN CHRIST. In the OT, before Jesus came, died and rose again, SAINTS were in Abraham's Bosom. Now they are in Heaven. They went there after Jesus rose from the dead. ONLY those who placed their faith in the redeemer,Gen 3:15, (explained in Hebrews 11..the list was longer than that chapter) He took with Him...leading captivity Captive. Hebrews 12, the spirits of JUST men made perfect. Their perfection came at Jesus Resurrection! Their/our Glorification will come at His RETURN!!!


---kathr4453 on 10/14/09


Shawn, you seem to be confused here. The Lamb Slain and Works finished were/are God's Plan from before the foundation of the world.

We know the Lamb was not slain AT the foundation of the world either.

Kathr did not claim any such thing or that anyone existed before the foundation of the world. I have read many of her entries, where she believes anyone who does claim such things are as the Mormons.

Please stop using flattery with me as an excuse to slander another. I'm also not impressed with your behavior here on line in your replies to others.

As one who didn't understand from the beginning, making an error in sound doctrine, you still have not received a clear understanding to date.
---Ralph on 10/14/09


SCRIPTURE says Jesus Christ was first Forordained, Elect and Chosen.

Jesus Christ IS head of the New Creation, All things made by Him, for Him etc Col:1.

So one must be IN CHRIST to be a New Creation, Col 3:1-4, to be in the New Creation, the New Heaven and Earth.

Paul tells us in Galatians nothing matters BUT the New Creature or New Creation Gal 6..of which even the earth groans now waiting for the reemption of the NEW heaven and earth. Romans 8.

Christ was FORORDAINED before the foundation of the world.

The Book of Life FROM the foundation has as it's first entry..Adam/Eve

Then Abel, Seth, and so on...and names are STILL being recorded as individuals receive Christ, becoming a NEW CREATION IN HIM.
---kathr4453 on 10/14/09


"the marking of the post is synonymous not with when our names were put in the Book of Life" Shawn
I never said that.

Mark E, you cannot agree that its in/through Christ that you are saved, predestined and adopted?!
You forget that Christ gives us the spirit of Adoption which is the Holy Spirit.
God foreknowing that those who accept this spirit does not mean you are predestined. The predestination and foreknowing means that God established/planned that whosoever will come to Christ will have everlasting life through Christ by adoption.
He didn't choose you btfotw. He knew you would choose Christ and be adopted!
---miche3754 on 10/14/09


-- Ralph :

Brother, You're Absolutely Correct ! We didn't exist Before The Foundation Of The World, because the only thing that did exist as you've shared was "God's Plan",.......so neither was The LAMB Slain & His Works Finished from BEFORE TFOTW, as Kathr wishes to claim.

God's Plan was to Foreordained the Precious Blood of Christ and Chose to Predestinate us in Himself BEFORE TFOTW. This is how our names were put in the Book of Life, of the Lamb Slain, FROM TFOTW.

Like Sister Miche shared, "God Planned and Covered all the bases Before TFOTW---miche on 10/13/09".

Ralph, Miche & You have all the pieces, now just line scriptures up with scriptures and the Truth will become Crystal Clear !
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/13/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Take rebuke with Love if you Love God and the Holy Ghost will awaken you to the Truth,..so you may repent.

This is more important to my heart than going along with the hypocrisy of flattering lips who are defiled by a root of bitterness, filled with PRIDE and never take responsibility to admit their errors & repent. Instead they Blame your sins for their DIFFERENT sins.

They continue to revel on, after you've repented & spoken no more of it, Saying "Your HERETICAL comment in the beginning started this whole outburst". They can NOT let it lay in Forgiveness nor remove themselves from it!

It reminds me of Adam blaming Eve instead of asking for Forgiveness & repenting.
---ShawnM.T. on 10/13/09


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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

We shouldn't be shocked that an individual who starts a response on 10/7/09 by rendering heretic for heretic, would discontinue their revelling & let things lay in repentance !

MarkV Justly brought to Light the Heresy again 1 Peter 1:20, from that response on 10/7/09 "The LAMB Was Slain from BEFORE TFOTW", which is calls for rebuke & need of Repentance and shows no sense of discernment in study or presentation of scriptures and we are to withdraw from it.

If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the wholesome Word of our Lord, he is proud, knowing nothing but doting about questions & strifes of words and destitute of the Truth, from such withdraw thyself. 1Tim.6:3-5
---Shawn.M.T on 10/13/09


Just to get this straight, I never said it was God's plan "b".

I said God made contengencies. That means God planned and covered all the bases before the foundation of the world.

We humans can never see a thing from all angles. But God can certainly do this. He sees the beginning and the end.
So, Did he see man falling? yes, he did. Did he plan for it? Yes he did.
Anyway, I never said it was plan "b".

Anyway, Kath and Ralph are very much correct on this. I applaud both of you and thank you both for your wisdom in Christ and the wonderful scripture. I just wish others appreciated you! God bless!
---miche3754 on 10/13/09


IN HIM is where we are chosen.IN HIM!!!!!
---miche3754 on 10/13/09

I cannot agree with this statement.

Let me see if I can explain why.

If what you are saying is that God, before the foundation of the world, looked down the tunnel of time, and saw that you would choose Jesus to be your Lord and Savior. Having seen this, God then chose or elected you because He saw this.

If this is what saying, then your decision is more important than God's and that He would not choose you on the basis of something else.

This is not coincide with wording like "foreknowledge", "elected", "chosen". All these imply a choosing not on our own, but of God's.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/09


-- Miche :

Sister, While the Passover is synonymous with us being cleansed & reborn by the Blood of Christ, the marking of the post is synonymous not with when our names were put in the Book of Life but when we received Christ & God's Seal of Promise. Eph.1:13-14, Rev.7:2-3

Miche, "IN HIM" is crucial and must be read as a whole with the rest of the chapter, specifically verse 10, to understand no one is claiming we received Christ BTFOTW. We were Chosen & Predestinated BTFOTW!

Eph.1:4-5,10 God hath CHOSEN us in Him BTFOTW...Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ...(Verse 10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, all things in Christ.
---ShawnMT on 10/13/09


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No Markv,
You are missing a vital and crucial point in that verse. IN HIM is where we are chosen.IN HIM!!!!! We were not in him at the foundation of the world.
We don't become in him until we receive him.
We don't get written in the book of life until we receive Christ. We must be covered and washed in the blood of Christ just like the Israelites had to mark the posts. Christ is our passover from God's wrath.
When you say we were chosen before the foundation of the world, you remove the finished work of the cross. IT IS CHRIST WHO IS THIS AND WE CAN ONLY RECEIVE SALVATION THROUGH HIM! stop going around Christ!
---miche3754 on 10/13/09


Eph. 1:4,5, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"

God predestined(PLANNED), BEFORE the foundation of the world, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

The Good pleasure of HIS WILL again reiterated this was God's plan before the foundation of the world. As Kathr pointed out, Jesus was not plan B.

The emphasis: GOD'S PLAN,PURPOSE,WILL. You did not exist before the foundation, God's Plan did.
---Ralph on 10/13/09


Sister, I've never seen scriptures even comes close to stating "God's identifying mark is our names written in the Book of Life". Please share!

Shawn, have you not read how Moses told the Israelites to slaughter a lamb and mark the lentil and posts so that the death Angel would pass them over?
What do you think Christ is for us?
He is our passover! We are "marked" by him for eternal life!

To do receive passover we must be born again!
First born of water(flesh)-first birth. Then by Spirit-Christ- born again!
To be born again we must repent and believe!
Christ's words, not mine brother.
He came to reconcile all man back to God.
Before Christ, we were all predestined for hell!
---miche3754 on 10/13/09


Shawn M.T., You need to address your comment to MARKV, who continues to imply everyone here is a heritic (excluding you of coarse).

Step up to the plate with MarkV,and others wouldn't have to.

Scott, I want to apologize for the rude nasty people here who dare to call themselves Christians, having respect of persons, we know James calls EVIL.


Shawn M.T. Your HERETICAL comment in the beginning started this whole outburst. MarkV continues to agree with that heretical comment.

Let's put blame where it belongs, and NOT sweep under the rug!

Please stop posting garbage with the heading:

Those who have an ear. as though you were Jesus. HE is the ONLY one who has a right to say those words!
---kathr4453 on 10/13/09


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Ralph, what you really don't have time for is the real Truth of God's Word. You want to go against the Word of God, that is your choice. I heard you, I listened to you and I did read Psalm 10. I could give you many passages also, that does not mean a thing, if you always corrupt the Truth.
Eph. 1:4,5, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" What you do as those others is corrupt and change the Word of God to your own liking. No one chosen passes the blood of Christ. In fact they are the only one's to receive it for their sins.
---MarkV. on 10/13/09


Anne, there is no more sin now then when Jesus was here. Heathenism and paganism were very much alive during the church early times, during the history, and now. The only thing we have is more people. We don't need Jeremiah or Jonah to put sense into people. The world needs Christ Anne. But this course will end when God has received all of His elect. And not a one will be lost. He chose them from the foundations of the world as His children.
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the gurantee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
---MarkV. on 10/13/09


-- Miche :

Sister, The Lord has 'Open' my eye to the horror of entertaining Opinions of Speculation, no matter how interesting it may seem. It's like walking down a road paved with good intentions...it only leads to hell.

More & more Biblical conversations are springing up questions & answers based in the opinions of speculation, and this is the cause of much strife & arguments not only within the Body but also about the Body of the Church.

So, I'm steering every clear of the temptations to share or receive these inquiries.

I think I'll just start utilizing three word in response to such inquiries in the future, " That Didn't Happen !!"

Good Day Sister Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 10/13/09


Yes of course they did, We all make our own choices and we are held responsible for the things we do. (I'm not talking of mental illness or disabled peoples)
Now if God had not specifically told Adam and Eve do not touch the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then it would not have been a sin but God plainly told them not to touch it, They touched it alright, Eve got pregnant by it. (Yes the tree of knowledge of good and evil was Satan) just as the tree of life represents Jesus.
---larry on 10/12/09


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-- Scott :

Brother, It doesn't matter who presented what first, we're not to render evil for evil, railing for railing or heretic for heretic.

Next time just post for the sake of not arguing and maybe you won't come across as a hypocrite, as you do through your first three lines. You're doing the very thing you're telling MarkV he needs to repent for doing.......Repent Scott !

Statements like "The LAMB Was Slain & His Works Finished from BEFORE TFOTW", shows no sense of discernment in study or presentation of scriptures and is calls for rebuke. MarkV was Just in bringing this to Light.

What you've brought to light is you're own malicious attack to slander a Brother's choice of a word rightly spoken.
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/12/09


-- Miche :

Sister, I've never seen scriptures even comes close to stating "God's identifying mark is our names written in the Book of Life". Please share!

God's identifying mark is His Living Seal of Promise, the Indwelling Holy Ghost received by Whomsoever Believes, Repents & Accepts God's Living Word. It's their names written in the Book of Life FTFOTW.

Miche, You do understand God has Foreknowledge of everything that would happen before He Spoke Creation into Existence and He had Chosen BTFOTW to Predestinate whom He did Foreknow to be CONFORMED to His Son's Image : which from our point of view is Whomsoever ?? Rom.8:29-30

It's more like the cart was assured before sending out the horse. Eph.l:4-12
---ShawnM.T. on 10/12/09


Mark V~ Yes, all Christian SHOULD have a fear of the Lord, but in this day we live in where sin/temptations are so rampant, and where excellent preachers who truly put the fear of God in people's hearts are as rare as 2 headed chickens...I would say absolutely positively NO...that many many 'Christians' do NOT have the fear of God in their hearts.

Why do you think the Bible tells us that toward the end of time the love of most will grow cold?
This wicked world is leading many Christians to become exceedingly lukewarm and dying spiritually like flies.
I can only pray that God might send us a mighty 'Jonah', or 'Jeremiah' to put some sense into this world of ours soon. May He send a mighty army to awaken this sleeping 'beast'.
---Anne on 10/12/09


For just sake of argument it is not right to present something that is heretical in nature just to argue with someone.


markv, Shawn MT was the first to present with argument something heretical in nature.

Shawn MT repented.

How do you reconcile your twisting this to kathr4453 presenting something heretical in nature.

Everything presented here by kathr4453 has shown diligence in study, scripture and presentation.

markv, there is something seriously wrong in your attacks here. Using words like heretical is beyond malicious slander.

Is this not the manifestation of Calvin himself?

Repent markv!
---Scott on 10/12/09


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Jesus taught us that we must be as wise as serpents in a world of wolves...we'd better be wise to deception, and not fall into its traps.
---Anne on 10/12/09


Anne, all christians should have a fear of God. And true information is essential. When I have a doubt on a passage it so happens that at some point a brother or sister will bring light to that passage and I compare it with the rest of Scripture to see if it is true or not. The Spirit guides us by giving us the passion to learn more about God so that our lives are better prepare to bring the gospel truth to those who need it. Even believers don't always make the right choices. It is as Psalm 10 begins, questioning where God is during hard times. But He is teaching us and helping us to get through those hard times when we make bad choices. Psalm 10 is a song of confidence in God's triumph over evil.
---MarkV. on 10/12/09


ShawnMT, yes you did repent of your original statement.

MarkV didn't hear that TIME OUT, but kept on running with the ball...IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

My statement concerning your remark that Adam could disallow (no such thing) Eve's sin...had complete and total disregard for the fact that It was God's intention from before the foundation of the world (called the Everlasting Covenant)to redeem SINNERS.

The Lamb slain at or Before..scripture states both....WAS not Plan B or an after thought.

MarkV KNOWS this..or should, yet has created enormous contention here by accusing me of starting a new religion???

Yet, MarkV says being deceived AFTER one KNOWS truth as Eve KNEW truth, is not all that bad???
---kathr4453 on 10/12/09


Shawn it is my understanding that we do not get our names written in the Book of Life until AFTER we receive Christ and then we are in him and he is in us.
That is God's identifying mark that we belong to him.
Just as the beast will have a mark, so does God.
If you say you are written in the book of Life before Christ came and died and rose for us, then you are putting the cart before the horse and cutting out the finished work Christ did on the Cross.
Anyway, here is another ? I have been pondering... What if Adam had chose not to fall with Eve? where would that leave us?
What if Adam had went to God for her and said "Lord please forgive her she was deceived"?
---miche3754 on 10/12/09


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MarkV:

I was in hopes Psalms 10 would convict your heart. It appears it did not.

I see more heretical teaching here coming from you.

I feel your comments are insulting, not only to me, but all those who know and understand the wisdom given us in Christ Jesus. I fear you have knowledge without the wisdom to understand. Exactly what does your wisdom tell you in Ephesians 1:4 and 1st Peter 1:19-21.

Do you believe you were chosen In Christ before the foundation of the world as a sinner or righteous person without need of the Lambs Blood? Again, what I see is your separating the Benefit from the Benefactor.

Mark, I really don't have time for your nonsense.
---Ralph on 10/12/09


***When Eve sinned she decided after all the talk the serpent gave her, that the serpent was telling the truth and she misundertood God, and didn't know what she was doing. It was not overt rebellion against God, but seduction and deception to make her believe her act was the right thing to ......MarkV****


MarkV, Let's be clear here, all who will be decieved by the beast, and take his mark....

2 Timothy 3:13
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being decieved.

Revelation 18:23
....for by thy sorceries were all nations decieved.

MarkV, gives NEW MEANING to DECEIVED??? Just as the serpent give new meaning to DEATH!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/12/09


Yes, they had the choice to sin...but my the horrible consequences it brought!!!

Does it not tell us we must have a most holy fear of God in our hearts? Yes? I would surely hope so!

Sin has devastating consequences...in fact, the world at present is so full of sin right now that it is most definitely awaiting the great wrath of God that it most desperately deserves.

Let us hope that this world might come to a great awakening...we need true reformation and revival, or we are headed down an even more dire road in the very near future.
---Anne on 10/11/09


-- Miche :

Sister, Let's focus on your questions while stepping away from getting caught-up in all the speculation and not get turned around by those whom I'm shocked to see continue to revel on, about things already repented !

We can Choose good & not sin, but only do to God's Drawing Spirit coming upon us(not to be mistaken with dwelling in us).

God has Foreknowledge of those who shall Hear His Word. Only they Believe in Christ & Choose Him in Faith, and God had Chosen to Predestinate them to be conformed to His Son's Image.

While not everyone Hears God's Drawing Word, they're still compelled to do His Will. Like Caiaphas in John 11:49-51 who didn't Hear Christ nor Believe but was still compelled to prophesy.
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/11/09


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Ralph, the most important thing for us to do is to give the right information to other Christians who are studying or learning in the area we are speaking of right now. The correction on Kathr suggestion is not only to set the record streight but to present the real Truth as written in Scripture. For just sake of argument it is not right to present something that is heretical in nature just to argue with someone. I don't usually take sides against someone just because we don't agree with one topic, because we could agree on many other topics. But each one should not be taken lightly for it is the Word of God we are dealing with not our emotions or feelings. I have read Psalm 10 many times. Thanks for sharing it with me.
---MarkV. on 10/11/09


-- Ralph :

Brother, Rev.13:8 is stating the same thing as Rev.17:8. All dwelling upon the earth shall wounder & worship him(the beast), whose names are not written in the Book of Life, of the Lamb Slain, FTFOTW.

The names written in the Book of Life are FTFOTW, NOT the Lamb slain.

Any motives for the purpose of revenge are not from MarkV. He's rightly spoken that it's the Precious Blood of Christ that was Foreordained BEFORE TFOTW.

Ralph, Kathr's not rightly dividing 1 Peter 1:20 nor Rev.13:8 and needs rebuking. She has yet to even attempt to answer the Blog question once. Instead, spends her time disrupting the sharing of God's Truth by trying to claim The LAMB Was Slain & His Works Finished from BEFORE TFOTW.
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/11/09


MarkV:

Revelation 13:8 The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Here again we can read this verse in the Living Bible which translation is
Yet we all know Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago. What then was John, Peter's and Paul's meaning?

It means, as I agree with Kathr, the Lamb of God, the Word who became flesh, was foreordained from before the foundation of the world for that which was purposed in God through Christ in bringing many sons into Glory, to share His Glory.

Markv, I would ask you to consider reading Psalms 10 as your motive causing disruption for the purpose of revenge.
---Ralph on 10/11/09


Ralph, He was foreordained to be a sacrifice before the foundation of the world, but was not slain before the foundation of the world. He was slain during His time when He was put on the cross. If He was slain before then who died on the cross?
Yes, we were chosen before the foundation of the world, but we were not saved until we were reborn, repented and put our faith in Christ works and resurrection. All of the elect have to be reborn because they are born under Adam. All have to have faith and repent. All is planned before the foundation of the world, and finished before God, for He sees all the plan, for He is Omniscient, but we are but creatures of time who are going through the process of that plan.
---MarkV. on 10/10/09


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MarkV:
Ephesians 1, We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, and 1st Peter 1:20,21, Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world. Notice in both places the reference is before.

How then could you be chosen or rather purchased with His Blood before the foundation of the world, if the Lamb were not already in God's foreknowledge?

You are creating a useless argument for the sake of arguing.

We today have this knowledge given us that Adam and Eve did not have in their knowledge. Because it was not revealed to them in their time does not change the fact, Christ was foreordained to suffer and die to purchase His precious possession, His Bride before the foundation of the world.
---Ralph on 10/10/09


Miche, 2: continue:
When Eve sinned she decided after all the talk the serpent gave her, that the serpent was telling the truth and she misundertood God, and didn't know what she was doing. It was not overt rebellion against God, but seduction and deception to make her believe her act was the right thing to do v. 3:13. The New Testament confirms Eve was deceived (2 Cor. 11:3, 1 Tim. 2:14, Rev. 12:9). When Adam ate, it was a direct transgression without deception (1 Tim 2:13,14). Adam could have prevented the fall because he had dominion over his wife and he had not sinned yet. He could have forgiven her right then and there. That is why we are under sin because of Adam. By one man's sin, sin entered the world.
---MarkV. on 10/10/09


Miche, We both know Shawn M.T. spoke falsesly concerning Adam1 being able to disallow sin, by using scripture totally unrelated concening VOWS and oaths under OT Law.

God did not disallow David's sin, as we know he was forgiven, however he suffered the consequences..his son died.

ShawnMT believed Adam1 could disallow Eve's disobedience by waving a wand as though it never happened, putting them both back in a state of perfection....WRONG.

Even today, if a Christian sins, RE: gets preganant out of wedlock, certainly there is forgivness, but the baby DOESN'T DISAPPEAR!

Without the shedding of blood, THERE IS NO FORGIVNESS OF SIN!!!

And, it was unfortunate you listened to ShawnMT to begin with to even be rebuked!
---kathr4453 on 10/10/09


Please print


Disallow in scripture 5106 means to DISCOURAGE one from doing something.

Look up scripture using discourage 5106 and you will see the same word Disallow as is in Numbers 30..

Num 32:7 And wherefore discourage ye 5106(DISALLOW) the heart of the children of Israel from going over into the land which the LORD hath given them?

Disallow can also be a bad thing, as in Num 32:7.

Are there those who would discourage you from following Truth? Or discourage you from sinning?

Where did Adam DISCOURAGE Eve from eating the fruit?.

Now if they discussed it first, and Adam DISCOURAGED Eve from disobeying, and Eve obeyed, that's another story...that didn't happen.
---kathr4453 on 10/10/09


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-- Miche :

Sister, You've rightly spoken that man did lose the ability to disallow sin after the Fall. 'Disallow' doesn't mean to Forgive(it's God who Forgives), it means to not Choose!

Before the Fall Adam was sinless and could disallow the choice to choose sin.

Man's evil heart can't do anything now, without the help of God's Drawing Spirit, but speak & choose to sin because as stated in Matt.12:34-35 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Kathr is rebuked for trying to prove her point & lead people astray from the Truth by making the false statement "The LAMB was Slain & His Works Finished from BEFORE TFOTW".
---Shawn.M.T on 10/10/09


Miche, if you are patient and take one step at a time and do your best to avoid rebukes and other things from others you can learn a lot from Shawn T. I will put my experience and you can question me or Shawn and Shawn can question anything I say too. He might have some knowledge of somethings I haven't gotten yet, so I will listen. This is all for the glory of God to get together and speak and discuss things. If we cannot discuss thing why even be here. I checked the comments that Shawn T wrote, if you remember God made that covenant with Adam only at the time concerning the tree in Gen. 2:16. because Eve was not in the picture yet until verse 22. Eve knew about the covenant with Adam because Adam told her.
---MarkV. on 10/9/09


Kathr, I am not oppose to what Shawn T stated in fact I am very much in agreement with what he said.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09

I know MarkV, that is why I have so much more respect for Miche. I know the Holy Spirit in her awoke within her truth, even with my rebuke. You see MarkV, those IN CHRIST will take rebukes of love because we love God...and that is more important than the hypocracy of flattering lips.

Double minded men are always unstable in all their ways.

You're a trooper Miche, and came back with TRUTH.

MarkV however, filled with PRIDE will never admit his error.

Adam disallowing sin???...MarkV,Don't be like ESAU allowing a root of bitterness to spring up defiling yourself!
---kathr4453 on 10/9/09


Miche, my reply to ShawnMT was concerning the scriptures in Numbers 30 concerning VOWS. I was shocked he took such scripture out of context and used it to apply it as though it meant SIN could be disallowed by man. Not even the POPE can absolve or disallow sin. God never gave Adam 1 such power to begin with. Only GOD can forgive sin...and sin is not disallowed to begin with. It took teh death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to FORGIVE sin...not disallow it!

Only through the BLOOD of the Everlasting Covenant could ANYONE be forgiven...as when God killed an aminal and covered Adam & Eve's transgression!

MarkV will have to be accountable to GOD for his hypocracy here!
---kathr4453 on 10/9/09


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Eve chose first to sin- Lawrence

she didn't choose to sin. She was deceived. - 3.1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression

Kath, looking at this, I apologize to you and Markv. You are both right. According to this, how was Adam supposed to redeem Eve after she had been deceived?
It wasn't possible. Paul says that she transgressed God's Law first through deception of the enemy. I didn't know there was so much info in just the first 3 chapters of Gen. until I started studying it(woohoo, I love God's word!)
It took God nailing his son's flesh(the perfect sacifice) to the Cross to disallow the transgression and redeem man back to God fixing what man had messed up.
---miche3754 on 10/9/09


Miche, Jesus was not Plan B just in case!

The works were FINISHED from before the foundation of the World. Who's works....Jesus Finished work..Hebrews 3 & 4. In other words the NEW CREATION was already planned, the New Creation IN CHRIST. Why, because sin had already entered the universe BEFORE Adam and Eve wver sinned.

The New Creation are those who enter into HIS REST....the 7th day!

Those who enter into HIS REST are a perfect 7..Perfect IN CHRIST, not a 6..still man of the dirt.

Circumcision on the 8th day was a SIGN of the Everlasting Covenant, represented the resurrection DAY of Jesus Christ!

Deep stuff!
---kathr4453 on 10/9/09


Miche, as I see it, when Scripture speaks, it speaks to us who are making choices all the time. Babies and little children are sinful in nature, but I believe they cannot be found guilty of doing bad works from conscience. Everyone who is not in Christ will go to the Great White Throne of Judgment, babies and children too. No exception. But when the book of works are open, God will not find any works where they should be found guilty. There is no cruelty in Hell. It is impossible for God to be cruel. God is incapable of inflicting an unjust punishment. The Judge of all the earth will surely do what is right. No innocent person will ever suffer at His hand.
---MarkV. on 10/9/09


Kathr, I am not oppose to what Shawn T stated in fact I am very much in agreement with what he said. I didn't phrase my answer to him clearly, it was my fault. Shawn T. Always stands for the Truth, and there was no need for anyone to disagree with his statement. Shawn T is a great teacher of the word, though he and I might not agree on every little detail we agree on all the essentials of the Christian faith. When I said his opposition, I was refering that someone, I was refering to you, for you said that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world and that is not true at all. He was foreknown as a sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world but was not slain before, since He died on the Cross. Any other interpretation is wrong.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09


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Humans still have free choice to choose right and thereby be blessed, or else choose to serve sin and thereby be cursed. Like many experiences in life, according to the choice we choose will determine the ease of making future choices. That is why it is best to get on the right track with God as early as possible in one's life to avoid inevitable hardness later to those whom choose living without God. "Know you all not, that to whom you all yield yourselves servants to obey, his slaves you all are to whom you all obey, whether of sin onto death, or of obedience onto righteousness?" Romans 6:16.
---Eloy on 10/9/09


Shawn T, I want to appoligize to you on my comments. I was not opposing your comments at all. I didn't find nothing wrong with them. When I wrote "your opposition" I meant "your opposer." I read it again and it did sound like I was opposing your comment too as Kathr was.
In fact I wrote what comment she made and expained it.
We could not have Jesus dying before the foundation of the world are else who died at the cross? So many things would have to change if that really happened. He was "foreknown" or ordained as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world. Thank you brother
---MarkV. on 10/9/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

While I stand firm on Num.30:6-8. God didn't have Foreknowledge of Adam disallowing anything while he was sinless, which makes my comment speculation and I REPENT of it, as well as REBUKE all speculation.

...and while taking about speculation.

**Adam CHOSE to eat & die with Eve, out of LOVE for Her! Just as Jesus chose to DIE for His bride out of Love for Her!--kathr4453 on 10/7/09**

Kathr, This is not only speculation about Adam's Choice but is also a false statements leading people astray to think they can sin for Love. Love doesn't make one sin.

While Jesus does Love us, everything He said & did including His Chose to Die for us was done out of His Greater Love for God.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/8/09


-- Miche :

Sister, Is a good deed in general, really a 'Good Deed' if it doesn't Glorify God ??

A Good Deed spoken & done by man will Glorify God, because its in direct response to God's Drawing Spirit coming upon us to Spiritually fill & move our hearts with the Good Wisdom of His Word.

Matt.12:34-35 states O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. Man's evil heart can't help but to speak & choose sin, without God's Drawing Spirit.

MarkV, Kathr thinks you're speaking about me. I know you mean no harm but your post should be addressed to Kathr and not me because I never implied or stated anything contrary to 1 Peter 1:20.
---ShawnM.T. on 10/8/09


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also,
I guess I should have asked do we still have the choice to sin or not?
Or when Adam and Eve sinned, did that mean we were just so low that all we want to ever do is sin.
Anyway, I am enjoying everyone's point of view on this along with the scripture references.
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


"The LAMB was slain from before the foundation of the World."

This means that God planned to do this before the foundation of the world was set.
It means that God knew man might fall and if they did he planned to do this to reconcile man back to him.

See Gen. 3:15
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


They had free will to choose obedience or disobedience. lit.Hb: "And Yhwh God commanded Adam saying: Of all trees of the garden see you, eating you will eat. But of the tree of knowing of good and bad, see that you eat not: for even the same day you eat, of it you will, dying you will die." Gn.2:16,17. And in Genesis 3:6, the woman the weaker vessel, after listening to the serpent, freely took of the forbidden tree and did eat, and then she also took some of it and gave it to her husband, and he also freely ate of the forbidden tree.


---Eloy on 10/8/09


Shawn,

Man did lose the ability to disallow sin after the fall.Miche***


MarkV, thank you for standing with the word of God.

I want to rebuke both ShawnMT and Miche as well here on this issue.

Adam or man of the dirt so to speak was NEVER given dominion over a Commandment of God to disallow GOD's WORD.

You SIN you DIE!!!! End of story!

Man having dominion over the earth, animals etc, is not USURPING authority over GOD or was given POWER to override God's command!
---kathr4453 on 10/8/09


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Shawn T 2 continue: As we already know, Jesus was foreordained as a sacrifice for sin by the Father. It was His commentment to the Father and when He was born and grew up, He knew what His purpose was. If He was never born then Jesus was never here. An imposter then would have been on the Cross. But Jesus was born of a Virgin and had all attributes of humans with the exception of a sin nature.
Many times comments are made to impress someone else as many preachers do when they speak of passages out of context. Forming their own meaning and not what God wanted to convey.
She talks of people turning Scriptures when she make new religions and since it wasn't me she was answering to, now it's become you.
---MarkV. on 10/8/09


Eve chose first to sin & then gives to Adam to sin. It makes me wonder what would have happened if Adam had Not partook of the forebidden fruit.
This dispensation of Grace we are in, we are saved from our sins & we Need to repent daily, some are saved in their sins & go on as there's nothing wrong. This once saved always saved, no works salvation & the so called sinners prayer is Man-made teachings.
Judas was a follower & he betrayed Jesus then hung himself. Because of satan he made his choice to be lost forever. NO once saved always saved, you can lose out with God & it's your choice.
---Lawrence on 10/8/09


Shawn T, your opposition just to argue gives more religious talk that really could start another religion with those comments. If Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world He was never here as a human, with the same attributes as all humans, a person of time as we are.

"The LAMB was slain from before the foundation of the World."

The Lamb was not slain from the foundation of the world, Scripture gives a different account,
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as a Lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained (as a sacrifice for sin) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God"
---MarkV. on 10/8/09


Shawn,

Man did lose the ability to disallow sin after the fall.
But did man lose the ability to choose to sin or not?
I asked because certain denominations believe man can't help but to sin. That man just never does good by choice.
Now I know that any action we do that is good but not done to glorify God, is works, so that is not what I am talking about.
I am just talking about man doing good deeds in general because some think that man doesn't have a choice to sin or not.
---miche3754 on 10/8/09


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Shawn M.T. Numbers 30 outlines the LAW of VOWS. This is called the Statutes of the LAW of Moses.

We see in 1st Samuel Hanna in fact made a VOW to God that if God opened her womb, she would GIVE her child to God. She in fact KEPT her VOW, giving Samuel to the Lord. Now if her Husband did not want that for his son, he could as the head of the woman, disallow her vow, and God would not hold Hanna's vow against her or hold her to it.

THEREFORE Shawn M.T. OT Vows were NEVER a sin( and Eve never took a VOW TO SIN!!! to begin with.

Verse snatchers will grab at anything to prove a point....not rightly dividing the Word of God.....leaving themselves open to doubt by making false statements leading people astray.
---kathr4453 on 10/8/09


-- Kathr :

"Eve did not utter with her lips any vows...she used her teeth" Kathr on 10/07/09

WOW, Talk about missing the mark!!!

Num.30:6 "When she vowed, OR UTTERED OUGHT OUT OF HER LIPS.

Sister, To commit a sin, is a vow of sin. Whether it's spoken as in a LIE, acted out as in MURDER or even just LUSTING in your heart, it's still a vow of sin.

Eve's vow was made by her heart causing her to eat of the tree of knowledge do to seeing it as good for food, desirable to make one wise and lusting after it as pleasant to the eye. This is her vowed wherewith she bound her soul that her husband having power & dominion over everything in the earth(before he chose to sin) could have disallowed.
---ShawnM.T. on 10/7/09


-- Kathr :

Sister, Why are you telling me of your confusion with Rev.13:8 and basing your whole post on things which I never implied or stated.

Adam did chose to eat from the tree of knowledge but you're missing the mark that before he made that choice he was sinless (despite not being the Lamb of God) and still had power & dominion in the earth to choose to disallow Eve's vow to sin.

Mankind lost that power of dominion to choose to disallow sin without God's Drawing Spirit.

Christ now having all Power in the earth, is able to disallow any of our(His Bride's) vows of sin, wherewith we bound our souls, making it of none effect(Num.30:6-8). This along with(John 6:39)is how & why Once we're Saved we're Always Saved.
---ShawnM.T. on 10/7/09


Num.30:8 Her husband can disallowed her on the day that he heard her vow, making that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
---Shawn.M.T

Shawn MT, Eve did not utter with her lips any vows...she used her teeth and blatently disobeyed God.
---kathr4453 on 10/7/09


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Shawn MT, I'm totally confused. The LAMB was slain from before the foundation of the World.

DEATH reigned after Adam's transgression. Jesus brought life and immortality to us through His death and resurrection life. HEBREWS 2

The first man Adams was a life giving soul, not a life giving Spirit as Jesus is, therefore ADAM 1 could never have disallowed Eve's sin.

Adam was not sinless that he could be the spotless lamb of God to begin with or a begotten Son of God, as is Jesus.

WOW, you really went off the mark there!

Adam CHOSE to eat the apple and die with Eve, out of LOVE for Her!

Just as Jesus chose to DIE for His bride out of Love for Her!
---kathr4453 on 10/7/09


Adam and Eve were sinless. They had no sinful nature. They were not enslave to sin. God made a Covenant with them, that Covenant that was given had the freedom of Choice. God did not have to give them freedom of choice, but did what was righteous in His sight. God made a Covenant of works, Obey and have eternal life, disobey and get death. They had a choice. They chose to disobey. And we know now what that brought. Death. Spiritual and physical death. Spiritual, (immediate separation from God), Physical, (they would surely die a physical death at a later time.)
All that are lost are under the Covenant of Works.
---MarkV. on 10/7/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Adam being given dominion over every living thing upon the earth, was able to make 'Choices' Gen.1:28. In Choosing to sin he gave dominion of everything over to Satan but before making that choice Adam could have disallowed Eve's vow in sinning so she could have received forgiven(Num.30:6-8)

Christ holding all power in the earth now(Matt.28:18), is able to make intersessions for our, His brides, sins by disallowing the vows we make(like Adam should have done for Eve), so we may be forgiven.

Num.30:8 Her husband can disallowed her on the day that he heard her vow, making that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/6/09


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