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Pass Health Care Legislation

Health care in America is in shambles. Millions of Americans are without health insurance. Should the Government pass health care legislation?

Moderator - Not in its current format. It would cause the economy to go into a deep recession and throw even more people out of work.

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 ---NurseRobert on 10/8/09
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Trish, the preamble of the Constitution describes the "why". The rest of the Constitution specifies the "how". Federal run healthcare is not constitutional.

Government healthcare will violate the precepts of the preamble. Forcing people to purchase insurance or face fines does not establish justice. Domestic tranquility will not be achieved, rather strife and disputes will arise when the inevitable rationing starts.

Also, there is no money to do any of this. It will be borrowed or printed. How does devaluing the currency of citizens and being indebted to foreign nations secure the blessing of liberty for ourselves and our posterity? Debtors are enslaved to creditors. There is no liberty for the debtor.
---ralph7477 on 10/16/09


Rhonda, there is nothing about Iraq that had anything to do with freedom.
Liberals?
The communities that boast the largest percentage serving in the armed forces are minority communities and not by a little bit.
Hispanic and Black communities are far more conservative in all recorded surveys than their white brethren on matters of abortion and gay marriage but vote largely democratic.
So we have by a percentage the most patriotic communities that vote democratic but don't consider themselves liberal considered less patriotic by conservatives?


Its the same logic that saw decorated combat vet John Kerry criticized by Cheney who had his pot belly full of 5 deferments. Spare us please.
---larry on 10/15/09


Trish, Amen and Amen. Conservatives who were church mouse quiet when we spent billions on bombing Iraq to the point where U.S. taxpayers had to replace over 100 Baghdad city garbage trucks now scream about spending?
Bush and the Republican congress INCREASED SPENDING and the SIZE of government from the Clinton years and they rewrite history?. There is no explanation for their rants beyond a pharmaceutical-induced denial.
Obama is criticized for having over 30 czars while Bush had 47. Again, Pharisee like hypocrisy at every turn.
Nothing illustrates the need for Health care reform more than those free clinics being held by Dr. Oz. I dare you to watch those events and deny they are not third-world shameful. Good grief people.
---larry on 10/15/09


Freedom comes with a price it is THAT freedom that allows liberals to create agenda's that are for the minority and TAKE from the majority

liberals don't see how military men and women and their families are HONORED by the SERVICE to PROTECT my freedom and even the freedoms of the liberals who have zero clue that the freedom they flaunt comes with a PRICE

---Rhonda on 10/15/09

Rhonda, Where do you come up with these? Do you make it up as you go along.

This liberal spend over 30 years in the miltary, both Army enlisted and a Naval Officer.

Don't even go there.
---NurseRobert on 10/15/09


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

What part of PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE would exclude ensuring everyone adequate healthcare?

As for the liberals not honoring the military, I do honor the soldiers. I was an Army wife and appreciate the men and women who serve. I do not believe that the war in Iraq was anything but Bush's lies and greed, NOT our protection.
---Trish9863 on 10/15/09




Trish9863- According to the Constitution, The Government HAS to BE responsible for the military... but NOT for health care.
---Donna66 on 10/15/09


Trish,

8 YEARS less than 6K military killed since 2001

Freedom comes with a price it is THAT freedom that allows liberals to create agenda's that are for the minority and TAKE from the majority

having a husband his brothers, my brothers my father uncles and grandfathers SERVING in the military I'm well AWARE of the COST

liberals don't see how military men and women and their families are HONORED by the SERVICE to PROTECT my freedom and even the freedoms of the liberals who have zero clue that the freedom they flaunt comes with a PRICE

liberals most likely would not be speaking about a "health care" plan today if US had not done something
---Rhonda on 10/15/09


I find it fascinating that there are people here who talk about the government's inability to manage things, and handle the enormity of expense of healthcare legislation, YET, these same conservatives saw nothing wrong with our same government managing the trillions of dollars it cost to send thousands of young men and women to a war in a country where there was not imminent threat to us, bringing many of them home dead, or disfigured. Somehow the government was okay handling and managing the defense department, and the slaughter of our young people, BUT not in taking care of the healthcare needs of our citizens here on U.S. soil. Hmmmm. Good for war. Bad for health. I must be missing something.
---Trish9863 on 10/15/09


Never did He advocate the theft from one individual (against his will or by force of arms) to give to another.
****

Amen giving freely from the heart to charitable causes is not the same as government taking especially when it is unable to manage itself and our money financially now

and Jerry thank you for adding the one million plus lives that are erased and taken from the womb

liberals health care agenda and their lopsided agenda to "help" the unfortunate YET ignore more than a MILLION killed by abortions each year

governments health care plan will PROVIDE abortions ...unlike today where many health care plans do not provide
---Rhonda on 10/15/09


1965-All Medicare would cost $12B by 1990, actual cost $107B in 1990. Today it costs $440B
*****

Ralph thank you for the truth ...nauseating how many programs are an obscene absurdly gross difference from what they TOLD the masses it would cost when it was implemented to the actual cost years later

imagine what a TRILLION dollar health care business will look like once the financially corrupt irresponsible government gets a hold of it?

Not one program ever came in under cost and the liberals are shoving this down our throats with expectations the masses will BUY their LIES with loose ends and fuzzy details and promise of "helping" the unfortunate - what a scam
---Rhonda on 10/15/09




Alan of UK-- Helping the unfortunate has been an important part of American medicine for years. The doctors who don't charge, the hospitals who charge only a small token payment and the neighbors who chip in to pay the medical bill of a fellow....are common but seldom reported occurances. There are charitable organizations whose hospitals NEVER charge and provide years of cutting edge medical care. But efforts are unofficial and unco-ordinated.

We need affordable health care for everyone and can provide it, but the proposed plans are overly complicated economically unsustainable.
---Donna66 on 10/15/09


Alan: I agree. But at what cost did Hitler and Stalin achieve socalism?

Jesus' injunction for us to be charitable to one another was based on our free choice to serve Him and others. Never did He advocate the theft from one individual (against his will or by force of arms) to give to another. There was an attendant blessing from God to the giver in Jesus' method. In Satan's method (socialism), the forced confiscation of one person's property for the benefit of another person (and for the government) brings only resentment and no blessing to the giver. Big difference!
---jerry6593 on 10/15/09


Jerry ... I would just like to remind you that Hitler, in just 20 years transformed Germany from a wreck into the strongest nation in Europe.

And about 10 years after WW2, the USSR was equal in power to the US.

And that was done, in both instances, partly by gross exploitation and annihilation of the weakest.

There's always going to be injustice, inefficiency, cruelty and exploitation, and limited compassion.

But Jesus said love your neighbour, and commanded us to feed the hungry and clothe the naked. I think in that, He included helping the unfortunate.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/14/09


Alan: Like you, I occassionally like to have a little fun. It seems that we are in complete agreement after all. You UKers have descended a long way into the pit of european socialism. We Yanks are just beginning the death slide. One major difference, though, Our constitution PROHIBITS the Federal Government from engaging in all but 21 specific areas of legitimate activity, and government health care, like nationalized banks and auto companies, is not on the list.

You may argue with our Constitution if you like, but when followed, it transformed a rag-tag bunch of backward Colonies into the world's greatest superpower in just 200 years. With socialism, we will become yet another 2-bit banana republic dictatorship.
---jerry6593 on 10/14/09


Jerry ... I did not say "that people become ill because they lack health insurance" Thaty is certainly NOT my thesis.

I said "You seem to say that all people without health insurance fall ill because of their decadent lifestyle?"

I said that because that is what your post seemed to imply. I'm glad your last post has clarified that you did not mean that.

And I certainly agree that we should not subsidise the decadent behaviour you describe.

Having said that, there are many who can't afford health insurance and whose need for health care is not caused by such behaviour. A sensible national health plan should be able to help them.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/13/09


Alan: "Jerry ... You seem to say that all people without health insurance fall ill because of their decadent lifestyle?"

No. All generalities are false [joke]. I even said that I personally have been without health insurance for many years without any serious illness - which disproves your thesis that people become ill because they lack health insurance. It is a proven fact that unhealthy lifestyle choices in diet, sedentary living, smoking, alcohol, crack cocaine, unprotected sex, etc., etc. lead to disease and early death. I don't condone such behavior and prefer not to subsidize it. Do you?
---jerry6593 on 10/13/09


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Jerry ... You seem to say that all people without health insurance fall ill because of their decadent lifestyle?

YOu do have logical arguments for your view, but this is not one of them! Also its implications are quite offensive.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/12/09


duane- I read what Charles wrote. Socialized medicine, cheaper for whom?
Certainly not better! If you disagree, please explain.
---Donna66 on 10/12/09


Rhonda: How about the 1.2 Million children killed by abortion in the USA last year? I wonder if NurseRobert cares as much as them as the others he cited. I for one resent the fact that health concious people like me (did fine without health insurance for 20 years) have our meagre funds stolen from us to pay for the results of the decadent lifestyles of the immoral.

Did Christ or the Apostles have or advocate health insurance or government health care? Did not they rather state:

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
---jerry6593 on 10/12/09


NurseRobert

You MENTION CONSIDERATIONS these are PROPOSALS of which nobody can determine how or if they will be implemented at this time ...SIMPLY idea's floating around because NOBODY has ANY concrete FACTS TODAY on how to fund this "reform" ..you are far more about disinformation if you claim these as "facts"

Obama was AGAINST a value added tax and is now considering it - now potentially looking at BREAKING his campaign promise

what you fail to grasp because your head is so far up in the clouds in your babbling noble cause is the government has NO CLUE how it will fund this reform and a federal tax increase HAS NOT been ruled out ...guess that's why you KEEP EVADING my question
---Rhonda on 10/11/09


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federal government unable to manage its money and programs swimming in debt would become a healthcare BUSINESS too ...REALITY IS once government TAKES OVER NOTHING to stop them from imposing their WILL to "make it work"

taking on a program costing more than one trillion during an economic crisis is criminal and suicidal

1000+ page reform reality is loss of freedom for all americans expanding POWER of government beyond health care with no firm details on implementation or long term forecasting

Congressional Budget Office STATED estimated $239 billion to federal deficit during first 10 years if implemented

MORE disinformation with UNANSWERED questions and FUZZY details ...liberals unable to comprehend
---Rhonda on 10/11/09


The fact that Harvard is a bastion of liberalism doesn't give much credibility to a "study" that is meant to advance a liberal agenda.

Harvard also holds "Darwin Day" celebrations to reinforce their teachings that man evolved from apes. Do you buy into that too, Trish? Yeah, real credible bunch over there.
---ralph7477 on 10/11/09


Ralph: Read the study yourself. Harvard University did the study. It is called "Health Insurance and Mortality in U.S. Adults." It was conducted by Harvard University. There seems to be a direct correlation between lack of health insurance and premature death.

Sure, people with insurance will die. But, according to the study, there is a 40% greater chance of it occurring in the age bracket studied for those without insurance.

Dismiss the study, if you like, but I find it credible, given that Harvard put its name on it.
---Trish9863 on 10/11/09


You don't have to be able to read the future, Nurse. Just use your brain and look at the past. All CBO estimates:

2009-TARP plan would cost $189B revised later to $356B.
1965-Medicare Pt. A cost would be $9B by 1990, actual cost $66B in 1990.
1965-All Medicare would cost $12B by 1990, actual cost $107B in 1990. Today it costs $440B.
1987-Subsidy for Medicaid special hospitals would be $100M by 1992, actual cost $11B in 1992.
1988-Medicaid homecare cost would be $4B by 1993, actual cost $10B in 1993
2003-White House estimate of Iraq war would be $60B, actual cost over $600B.

Now, what intelligent person wouldn't think that this trend won't continue?
---ralph7477 on 10/11/09


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Kimberly Young, 22, died after reportedly suffering from swine flu delayed getting medical treatment because she did not have health insurance.

Deamonte Driver, 12,died because his family could not afford private dental treatment. (developed a massive infection from a bad tooth).

Ed Hauser had been making excuses not to seek medical care because he didnt have insurance coverage. He died from a massive heart attack.

They may not have died becuase of "no insurance" but it is why they didn't get medical help.
---NurseRobert on 10/11/09


44,789 people die each year from lack of health insurance. Does that number bother anyone else but me?
*****

depends on which source seeing many claim aprox 22K

16K plus murders yearly
12K plus die yearly by a drunk drivers

100K plus die yearly from taking legal drugs exactly as they are prescribed

we will NEVER know about all the ignorant people who HAVE health insurance but REFUSE to seek treatment and die

what about suicides?

65% of US population is OVERWEIGHT and their LACK of care for themselves CREATES health risks like heart disease diabetes cancer etc

there are no guarantee's in life
---Rhonda on 10/11/09


You people just dont want to get it I guess.
Forget insurance companies, just get rid of them. We need socialized medicine. A tax just for medical care. Everyone is covered. No forms to fill out, no claims to worry about. Is that so hard to understand?
The problem with Obamas plan is he wants to dance with insurance companies. He dont get it either.
---duane on 10/11/09


There has never been a government funded non-entitlement project that has come in at or under budget ...immoral to have run up such a huge debt...
****

how true ...bleeding heart liberals have grandiose idea's yet never GRASP big picture never TRUTHFULLY address money required for their pet projects hoping masses (aka tax payers who fund) will be SOLD on their "CAUSE" with slick campaign overlooking major details: ACTUAL Tax increase

if there were such a thing as "liberal small business owners" they would not last ...no small business owner could sustain a business if they worked by liberal money management standards of government ...seeing they don't have tax payers on hand to FUND their endeavors
---Rhonda on 10/11/09


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Trish,surely no one wants people to die due to no medical intervention,but treatment doesn't always mean help. Did you know more people die in the Hospital being treated than anywhere in the USA. In the years 2000,2001,2002,195,000 people died in hospitals from preventable medical errors. A study in 2006 found medication errors are among the most common medical mistakes harming 1.5 million people in different settings. I am sure the list of Medical Treatment harming people in one way or another goes on. Of course thats not to say don't help those who can't help themselves. I just wanted to show medical treatment isn't always good and even if everyone could get medical treatment it doesn't mean thy will have a positive outcome.
---Darlene_1 on 10/11/09


NurseRobert-- I AM assuming that public insurance would be cheaper than private. Isn't that the general idea? What purpose would it serve otherwise?

I know quite a few small business owners.
Some have checked their current expenses against the probable cost of doing business if we have a public option, ( both with and without suggested fines for not insuring their employees). The concensus seems to be that, at best, thay would have to scale back, start laying off employees. Not a very rosy sign for our econonmy.

Few politicians have ever worked in private industry. They are mostly ignorant of what it takes to be in business. We can provide afforable coverage for all, but not this way!
---Donna66 on 10/11/09


$829 billion you say. Yeah right.
---ralph7477 on 10/11/09

Hey, I just call them as I read them. Those numbers come from the CBO...
Of course, you are much better at reading the future than I am.

Nothing said will change your mind... so...
---NurseRobert on 10/11/09


Yes Trish, that number bothers me too for the simple reason that it's a made up figure that can't possibly be verified. There is no way to prove that somebody died because they didn't have an insurance policy.

As NurseRobert loves to say, "Where's your proof" that every one of those people would be alive and well if they only had an insurance policy?

On a related note, do you realize that there are hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who die every year who have insurance? If having an insurance policy guarantees life, then how come all these people are dying while being covered by insurance? Things that make you go hmm.
---ralph7477 on 10/11/09


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44,789 people die each year from lack of health insurance. Does that number bother anyone else but me?
---Trish9863 on 10/11/09


NurseRobert-- The public option can charge whatever they want for their plan. That is not the case with private insurance. Private companies cannot LOSE enrolees AND lower premiums and still compete. They will go broke. The likely scenario is that companies that now provide health insurance will simply stop writing health and switch to life, property, vehicle... which many of them aready write.
---Donna66 on 10/11/09


$829 billion you say. Yeah right. Whatever they claim the cost to be, you can multiply it by at least 4 or 5 to get what the actual cost will look like.

There is no government entitlement program that has ever stayed within the original estimates. Every entitlement program has exponentially expanded far beyond anybody's comprehension, both in money spent and the impact on the taxpayer. History bears this out.

There has never been a government funded non-entitlement project that has come in at or under budget. Government can not control spending. It is immoral to have run up such a huge debt for the sake of present wants, and then make your children and their children responsible for paying it off.
---ralph7477 on 10/11/09


Listen very carefully, Rhonda..

$829 Billion over 10 years. And since the final bill isnt finished, plans are to pay for it by:

Trimming money from Medicare and Medicaid (specifically the Medicare Advantage program).

A surcharge on people making over $280,000 a year.

A tax on employers who refuse to provide insurance for their employees.

A change in tax deductions and what people can claim.

A sin tax on cigarettes, alcohol, and soft drinks.

Lowering the insurance subsidy threshold.

Now, give us the facts backing up your statements. Or are you just parroting your talking heads?
---NurseRobert on 10/11/09


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Small businesses esp. would benefit from employees switching to the public option.---Donna66 on 10/9/09A

Possibly, but not necessarily true. Are you assuming that the public option would be cheaper than private insurance? This is not necessarily so. If anything, I believe that pvt companies will have to lower premium costs to compete.

There is a ton of money to be made in the health insurance business and these companies are masters at doing it. Competition will still be around.



---NurseRobert on 10/11/09


Has any one asked the doctors how they will handle the new account? Like the V.A. did when they let all service men and women into the system when they were overcrowded with the disabled Vets. I got squezed out.
---Norman on 10/10/09


The health care is in a shambles because of corrupt character of admin people and users. No law or policy change can make people love and become honest. Practically . . . if it is true we now are approaching a ten percent unemployment situation . . . isn't this partly because these people's jobs have been exported? So, there are no jobs for these people, then . . . not sustainable ones > with taxes depending on underpayed workers . . . can we have enough tax money to pay for government program jobs for the unemployed, plus for a medical system? And if we trim the inefficient jobs of government and medical > this means more people not working (o: who also will need, yes, tax payed support from anyone left to work underpayed???
---Bill_bila5659 on 10/10/09


NurseRobert-- Just an interesting sidelight. Viagra has even been used for newborns whose vascular systems are compromised. Interesting.
---Donna66 on 10/10/09


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Donna, read what Charles wrote...
---duane on 10/10/09


the health care system,as with everything else is based on PROFIT,the almighty dollar,or mark,pound,ruebel,pescos,you name it,greed rules the world.
---tom2 on 10/10/09


AND AGAIN NurseRobert

how much will it cost?

how much?

do YOU KNOW?

the government has not disclosed this information ...SELL the MASSES on noble cause and OMIT the COST

how much will it COST THE TAX PAYERS???

HOW MUCH?

I can't backup MY STATEMENTS?

too funny - you support a healthcare bill WITH OPEN ENDED FUNDING ...in other words NurseRobert the TAX PAYERS who will FUND the gangster governments plan HAVE NO IDEA how much they will be SOAKED FOR

and YOU WANT a fact finding mission on my statements

sure ...when you can tell me the COST I'll let ya know
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


OK, now I understand Robert.
---ralph7477 on 10/9/09

You're welcome Ralph... just another fringe group to add to this list
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


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back it up with facts? You keep spewing statements but you cant back them up. Why is that Rhonda?
*****

YOU have NO FACTS about COST yet looking for details and "back up" on the very issues government ignores?

just another sorry liberal so wrapped up in you're delusional noble righteous high foolishly supporting a plan that has not told tax payers (aka the one's footing the bill) what they will be paying

WHAT IS THE COST? you dodge evade this question STILL claiming YOU have all the answers "RIGHT" sources STATS FACTS and everyone else is wrong

so AGAIN what is the COST to the TAX PAYERS who will FUND IT?

Why is it you won't answer this ROBERT?
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


Accoording to the Washington Post, the average annual premium for family coverage amounted to $12,106 in 2007, of which $3,281 was paid by the worker. (The employer picks up the rest.) A small employer with six employees would spend $53,000 per year in premiums, a significant budget item, not counting time and money spent negotiating with insurance companies. Small businesses esp. would benefit from employees switching to the public option.

The actuarial nature of private insurance means fewer enrollees equal higher premiums. Private insurance would become unaffordable. Insurance companies would quit writing health insurance. That leaves a single payer system: the US Government who then has ultimate decision making power in health care.
---Donna66 on 10/9/09


How can my answer be false when the gangster government has NOT TOLD the TAX PAYERS what will be expected of them?

Then back it up with facts? You keep spewing statements but you cant back them up. Why is that Rhonda?

YOU must WORK for the government

I do. I work for Monroe County in Upstate NY at a 566 bed LTC facility, 87% Medicaid, 7% Medicare, 6% Private Pay. We take these residents because most of the "private" facilities will not. You are welcome to come and see what we do.

yet government hopes it will pass a bill with an OPEN END tax collection to FUND its latest endeavor

Again, pure hyperbole. WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS RHONDA?
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


OK, now I understand Robert. I have to admit that I never heard of a "tenther" before. So it's simply somebody who thinks that we should adhere to the constitution. Seems reasonable.

It's funny because I thought the term might be used to describe how a reasonable person such as myself, using only a tenth of my brainpower, is still far smarter than the average liberal using 100% of whatever brain power they can muster. Either description would apply to me, so I'm glad you cleared it up.
---ralph7477 on 10/9/09


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The people who have always had Health Care Insurance do not know what it is like to be sick and not be able go to the doctor. If ALL U S A citizens had government health care insurance it would be affordable and of good quality.
This is what separates the rich from the poor. The rich always goes ahead of the poor because they have the money to pay for it. By putting the insurance companies out of business it would take the middle man out of health care. We would all be on the same level and save a lot of money in the process. The people who created the system would have to use the same system for their health care.

---Charles on 10/9/09


Duane -- Just HOW would your "commom sense" plan make health care "cheaper"? What, specifically, would it do to make health care "better"?
---Donna66 on 10/9/09


Rhonda-- I am against any of the plans that have a public option because it will
INEVITABLY lead to a single-payer system.


Where is your evidence to back up this statement?

You are right, to have health care as you envision it, would be a disaster...There's 0 chance of the plan you envision even being proposed by Congress now.

Thats the problem, Rhonda envisions a health care system that NO ONE is contemplating.

Even,as is, a small but significant percentage of MDs are threatening to quit if proposed reforms pass.

I doubt it. People get angry and say thing, but if any of them quit, it will be a insignificant number.
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


You are right, to have health care as you envision it....there's 0 chance of the plan you envision even being proposed by Congress now.
*****

didn't post a "plan" REAL concerns of health care industry yet government document has NOT addressed these and many other issues

hospitals will remain private? another hat-pulling answer ...just like government has NO CLUE how it will FUND their newest gangster project

how delusional to believe health care professionals will not be working for government? if money for their bogus health care service is collectively taken in taxes BY THE GOVERNMENT then WHO do you think will pay the health care workers? ..or do the liberals think they should be slaves and work for free
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


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required to pay "$6K PLUS" in federal taxes, instead of contributing to employer provided health care? It doesn't. This is false.
*****

How can my answer be false when the gangster government has NOT TOLD the TAX PAYERS what will be expected of them?

or is your answer more mysterious and delusional - pathetically soothing hoping ignorant simple minded masses will believe you when YOU SAY "it won't cost too much more"

YOU must WORK for the government

a legitimate business could not run this way ...yet government hopes it will pass a bill with an OPEN END tax collection to FUND its latest endeavor - pure poison
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


Medical care in the country is in shambles. We are nowhere near the top in multiple catagories of care.
*****

is this why some of the richest people in the world fly to Cleveland for heart treatments

no small wonder more than half of the devices in medical care are created in good ole USA

not to mention the drug cartel and all its wonder ...more medicines to treat ...CDC capital of the world is here

the POOR in other nations come here for emergency life threatening surgeries PAID for by DONATIONS from CARING US citizens?

and we are "nowhere near the top"? ...in multiple categories of care no less
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


Rhonda-- I am against any of the plans that have a public option because it will
INEVITABLY lead to a single-payer system.

But nothing suggested so far, would make health care personnel (doctors and nurses) employees of the government. Private hospitals would continue to be privately owned and run.
You are right, to have health care as you envision it, would be a disaster...Even,as is, a small but significant percentage of MDs are threatening to quit if proposed reforms pass.
There's 0 chance of the plan you envision even being proposed by Congress now.

Ironically, Australia is considering giving up socialized medicine because it has been such a failure.
---Donna66 on 10/9/09


Economy doesn't depend on all having health insurance. There's a big problem if health care is made government provided by higher taxes. Common sense dictates if taxes are charged on already low salaries it will put a worse strain on the economny. The government is set to destroy medicare,cutting back money doctors and procedures receive. Can't they figure out that practice by government will hurt the Senior Citizens,maybe they just don't care doctors will not give the patients the care they should. Plainly stated,whatever the Government takes away from the doctors they will take away from the Seniors. It isn't fair to the Seniors who have already paid their dues to this Nation in many ways,to let them be robbed of what they have earned.
---Darlene_1 on 10/9/09


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Duane,

Unfortunately common sense has nothing to do with it.

Insurance companies are not just interested parties, they hold a vested interest in the way things are. To change things seriously you would have to disrupt the stream of income and profits they now enjoy. It is not in their interests to lower premiums, insure those who most need or are likely to need insurance, or pay out claims if they can find a way around it. It is cheaper to buy lobbyiest and advertising to get their way.

Solar energy, likewise will not find a place until every drop of oil is used up and every penny of profit taken from that last drop.
---atheist on 10/9/09


There is no pain if we use common sense. If we get rid of insurance companies and collect money in taxes for universal healthcare it will be much cheaper and better.
Can we please use our brains?
---duane on 10/9/09


all so minority who pay nothing GET MORE benies (sic) from EVERYONE
---Rhonda on 10/9/09

That one sentence says everything we need to know about you.
Just who are those who have "hinted" at 25%?

Where, anywhere, in any health care bill does it say that you will be required to pay "$6K PLUS" in federal taxes, instead of contributing to employer provided health care? It doesn't. This is false.

You accused me posting "ALL your fancy statistics" but you post outright lies and parrot what the talking heads on Fox tell you what to say.

You have NO CLUE as to what you are talking about.
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


Disclaimer: (in case the previous Health Care blog does not continue). In the previous blog Kathr4453 makes some ABSOLUTELY unfounded accusations about me.
---Donna66 on 10/8/09


Donna, you don't need a disclaimer. Those of us who follow your posts know where you stand on this.

As an aside, we have a resident at the LTC facility I work that that gets viagra, but NOT for that reason. Viagra was actually developed as a cardiac drug. The other use was a noted side effect.
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


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First of all, health care is not in "shambles". It is very expensive which is a direct result of Government involvement-Ralph.
Ralph that comment has no common ground in truth. The VA, and health plans that cover the military, post office employees, Congress and other workers is actually the most efficient by any measure. A five-second search on Google would have told you so?
The lack of government invovlvement and laisse faire free market is the reason premiums will go from $12k now to $26k by 2016.
I am a free market enthusiasts but that doesn't mean I have to stick my head in the sand because the facts don't fit my ideology.
The the map doesn't follow the terrain go with the terrain.
---larry on 10/9/09


duane-- Why do you think your idea would make health care cheaper? Or better, for that matter?
Specifically, what mechanisms would control costs. And what incentives would there be to improve care?
---Donna on 10/9/09


Nurse, what's a 10ther?
---ralph7477 on 10/9/09

At 10ther (tenther) is a term used to describe a political ideology that believes that many actions of the United States government are unconstitutional.

Adherents claim that that the states share sovereignty with the federal government and with the people by citing the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution as the basis for their legal and ideological beliefs.
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


-MANY will loose jobs in industry, estimates are MORE THAN half a million job losses.
-remaining health care workers will now be government OWNED employee's ALL receiving a dramatic reduction in their salaries..
-MASSIVE job loss MASSIVE reductions in salaries by MANY MILLIONS MORE than "those" who do not have healthcare
-REDUCTION in income for ALL - more goodies for less than 12% of which more than half living in large cities of whom receive FREE healthcare at clinics
-Rhonda on 10/9/09

You forgot "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! "

Where are your FACTS to back up these statements. Come on Rhonda... post just a few.. prove you know what you're talking about.
---NurseRobert on 10/9/09


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There is no pain if we use common sense. If we get rid of insurance companies and collect money in taxes for universal healthcare it will be much cheaper and better.
Can we please use our brains?
---duane on 10/9/09


Nurse, what's a 10ther?
---ralph7477 on 10/9/09


BIG BOY libereal government cartel seeking control of all by brainwashing MASSES - details of government health care are big dark secret ....less MASSES know better it "looks"

truth is MANY THOUSANDS across USA will loose jobs in industry ...estimates are MORE THAN half a million job losses

remaining health care workers will now be government OWNED employee's ALL receiving a dramatic reduction in their salaries

MASSIVE job loss MASSIVE reductions in salaries by MANY MILLIONS MORE than "those" who do not have healthcare

and REDUCTION in income for ALL - more goodies for less than 12% of which more than half living in large cities of whom receive FREE healthcare at clinics
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


catch with gov run Ins is they want control of everybody. It's written in the bill. As the saying goes "beware of the hand that feeds you"
Have you read the bill?
*****

NurseRobert has read EVERY WORD eager to pay 15% PLUS tax (exact amount UNKNOWN some have hinted at 25%) and fighting for government to OWN every citizen

majority of USA makes aprox $45K year - paying far less than 2K yearly to employers for choice of healthcare ...now these people will be paying $6K PLUS in federal taxes to be TOLD by government who how and when they can receive care

all so minority who pay nothing GET MORE benies from EVERYONE
---Rhonda on 10/9/09


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Disclaimer: (in case the previous Health Care blog does not continue). In the previous blog Kathr4453 makes some ABSOLUTELY unfounded accusations about me.

She says of me //you believe recreational Drugs for Senior Citizens should be funded by MY HARD WORK!!!! Or that abortions should be funded by my taxes. Or that MY Taxes should go to religious organizations promoting abortions that I DON'T believe in.//

None of these are true. In fact I DISAGREE with them ALL! Kath4453 has no way to know what I believe because I have never mentioned these issues! Any one who reads my posts would know I'd be most unlikely to support what she alleges. I don't know the reason for her rant.
---Donna66 on 10/8/09


Ralph, I could not disagree with you more.
Leaving aside the people who don't have health insurance (its hard to ignore the 40 million plus, but for you, we will). Medical care in the country is in shambles. We are nowhere near the top in multiple catagories of care.

You want to dismantle Mcaid/Mcare and leave almost 100,000,000 MORE people without insurance. Maybe we should go back to the old folk remedies of the past? We could stick mom and dad in the back room and nurse them until they die.

And I figured you for a 10ther....So Im not surprised at your answer.
---NurseRobert on 10/8/09


Moderator - the problem is the economy can't be fixed without fixing health care. Its more burdensome to business than taxes, Sarbanes-Oxley or any other odious regulations combined.
The new Baucus bill will, according to the CBO, actually lower the deficit but only after serious tax increases on existing health plans.
Strangely enough only the liberal MSNBC has been beating the drum on the hidden cost of the Congressional plan thanks to Lawrence O
Donnell.
Health care is akin to Afghanistan. There is no way it can be resolved without great expense and pain but it must be done.
---larry on 10/8/09


StrongAxe, Congress will pass something but you'll pay more than the measley $504 deductible they pay for the mother of all health plans we can only dream about.
For the life of me I don't know why the otherwise very smart President Obama didn't come up with a plan on his own and just sell it.
Trying to push 5 congressional proposals only in the early stages was political suicide. There is Democratic infighting and dishonesty from the left about the true costs, while today's poll showing a 25% approval ratings for Republicans who oppose everything including the rising of the sun is laughable. Pelosi and Cantor are both acting like knuckleheads and members on both sides of the aisle should be ashamed.
---larry on 10/8/09


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Ralph:"The United States managed quite well without these programs for 190 years."

Including all those that died who couldn't afford medical treatment?

Really. You don't say. Ummm...
---atheist on 10/8/09


Wayne:"The catch with gov run Ins is they want control of everybody."

Who is 'they'? And who told you about 'they'?

Are 'they' coming to get you?

Is 'they' the legislators paid by the health industry? That 'they' is already controlling practically everything to do with health in this country.

Or is you 'they' got bigger plans that just health care.
---atheist on 10/8/09


I agree with the moderator. We DO need some reform. I'd like to see cuts in health care costs and affordable health insurance for those who would otherwise be uninsured.

But we don't need to REMAKE the WHOLE system. So far, the government pays only lip-service to cutting costs. They don't
know how, without upsetting some political supporters, and they have refused to accept suggestions despite their claims to the contrary. The PUBLIC OPTION would necessarily end in socialized medicine.

If health insurance could be sold by any company in any state (which is not the case now) competition would be increased and insurance would become portable. The cost to the government? Essentially nothing.
---Donna66 on 10/8/09


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