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Christ's Third Coming To Earth

We have called the next appearance of Jesus on Earth, the "Second Coming." Would it be more accurate to call it the THIRD Coming: Counting the Birth as first and Resurrection as Second?

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 ---Geraldine on 10/10/09
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False doctrine lies saying, Jesus was the Son from all eternity: True doctrine affirms saying, Jesus is the Father: "For unto us a Son is given: and his name will be called, The Everlasting Father. Jesus says, I and Father are one. He that has seen me has seen The Father." Isaiah 9:6+ John 10:30, 14:9.
---Eloy on 10/22/09


Warwick ,I don't "trall" any "sites" I only know what I read.
Bible dictionaries point out that Pharisees as a religion, believed in the immortality of the soul (not supported by scripture) but it comes out in Paul's writing like "absent from the body" etc. Something Jesus never preached!
Paul by all perceptions appears to be an "angel of light" enlightening the Christian congregation!
But hey,satan's not that smart, huh, he really couldn't deceive the "elect" could he? nah!
---1st_cliff on 10/21/09


My statement is not heresy, The Father of Jesus Christ is God-
A. Explicit statements that Christ is the Son from all eternity: "Father, the hour has come, Glorify Your Son, that your Son also may glorify You, as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You. the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now O Father, glorify Me together with yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was"
Christ was the Son from all eternity.
---MarkV. on 10/21/09


Kathr 2 continue: The passage I gave was John 17:1-5. and the passage you put down Hebrews 1:5, "For to which of the angels did He ever say, "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"
is in reference to the voluntary submission of the Second Person of the Godhead to the First Person for the purpose of fulfilling the program of redemption established in eternity past. His Son-ship was also expressed in the Old Testament (Psa. 2:12, Prov. 30:4). The word "Today" indicates that God's Son (Jesus incarnate)was born in a point in time. He was always God's, but He fulfilled His role as Son in space and time at His incarnation and was affirmed as such by His resurrection (Rom. 4).
---MarkV. on 10/21/09


Cliff I really cannot see your point. You seem to infer that Saul the Pharisee could not become Paul, the Christian apostle. This is wrong, and makes no sense.

However you falsely claimed Jesus denounced Paul as from the devil. Untrue. I know you find it difficult to stick to the point but try.

As Kath has pointed out 'Paul, the servant of Jesus Christ, was called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God.' Romans 1:1

Once again you have been trawling antiChristian websties, and they have lead you into obvious error.
---Warwick on 10/21/09




***God's Plan to Sacrifice the Precious Blood of Christ on the Cross------
Shawn M.T.


Shawn M.T. God did not plan to sacrifice the Precious BLOOD of Christ, He planned to sacrifice Jesus Christ, SON of God who shed HIS BLOOD. BIG DIFFERENCE! Should I call your turning thing upside down HERESY??

Please stop chanting these things not found in scriture, but your own words (rather twisted) Unless of coarse you can find scripture stating the BLOOD was sacrificed! It's the Blood OF THE Sacrifice of Christ WHERE The BLOOD was APPLIED !

And no one here is even debating the Blood of Jesus anyway!

Son of God, Son of Man, Son of David...all TITLES of Jesus, not 3 Jesus's!
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


Miche:

Everything you said is also true for me. The "big" sins are now in the past and the Father is working on the small ones, like road-rage. I have passed that test for now but I am still working on murmuring.

Our christian walk should be a steady upward climb toward sanctification but at times it seems more like a staircase. Up we go to get over a new "test" and when we finally have it, we can rest only a little while until we climb up the next test.

I wanted to apologize for some harsh words. This debate will never be settled until we see Jesus. My friend Will (he has passed) always disagreed on this issue. Will now knows the true answer, and if God is true to His nature, we are both wrong.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/21/09


Shawn M.T. #2 please print.

In the OT, the Blood of animals ATONED for sin....only covered, However we read in Hebrews 9:24-26 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others, For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

Jesus' blood applied to the Mercy Seat in Heaven opening the way for ALL to come into the presence of God through HIM!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


Paul was a dyed-in-the-wool Pharisee whom Jesus denounced as from the devil!
Acts 23.6 "Brothers I am (not used to be,not once was) a Pharisee, son of a pharisee" Sorry but that's what it says!
Do you not think writing 1/2 the NT influences people to feel that his words are truth???
---1st_cliff on 10/20/09


Acts 23:6

6But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead, the Pharisees did! This is what Paul was referring to...the RESURRECTION of the dead!!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, That which is sown is not quickened, except it die and we sow not the body that shall be, but bare grain, that it may chance of wheat or SOME OTHER GRAIN. 1 Cor.15:36-37

God having Foreknowledge of everything Chose in Himself BTFOTW(b/c of 1Cor.15:36-38,56) to Predestinate whom He Foreknows to be CONFORMED to the Image of His Son, AFTER His Finished Works on the Cross : God did this b/c He Knows what shall chance of Wheat & what shall chance of some other grain.

Christ Jesus came to Reign in Salvation that we through Him shall be Saved, where we're free from the Law of sin & death b/c sin is no longer imputed or abounds where there is No Law. Rom.5:12-13,19-20
---Shawn.M.T on 10/21/09




Eloy, here I have to disagree with you. Christ was always the Son from all eternity. .....
---MarkV. on 10/18/09

MarkV, ONLY in the sense that the Lamb was always the lamb from all eternity.

So, is your statement Heresy?

I will not start a heretical fire here, BECAUSE, through your mis-applied statement I understood what you were TRYING to say!!!Maybe!
I will give you the benefit of the doubt!

The Son was not in the OT, the WORD was.

The WORD BECAME flesh, THEN called the SON OF GOD. TODAY have I begotten thee!! Hebrews 1!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


-- Miche/MarkE :

God has Foreknowledge of everything and BTFOTW b/c of 1Cor.15:36-38,56 He Chose to Predestinate whom He Foreknows to be CONFORMED to the Image of His Son, AFTER His Finished Works on the Cross.

God's Plan to Sacrifice the Precious Blood of Christ on the Cross was Foreordained and manifested in these last time so we may be Reborn & Quickened through being washed clean of our sins by it in Christ where we're Free from the Law & SIN IS NO LONGER IMPUTED & we may receive God's Indwelling Living Seal of Promise The Holy Ghost, to REDEEM Salvation & enter Heaven.

This is how/why we get Saved, we stay Saved ! People who claim Christ but continue to do whatever, don't Hear the Truth no matter what you say !
---Shawn.M.T on 10/21/09


We slip up so easily. The longer I walk with Christ, the more He shows me little things that I do wrong. For example, if I am waiting in a line and I see someone who needs to get through before me, if I know Phil 2:3 and do not let them go first, it is a sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/20/09

I find as I grow in God's grace and wisdom, I slip up less and less.
And the things that used to provoke me to sin don't do that anymore.
You do that too! I thought I was the only one. So many people just don't consider their neighbor anymore. That was one of the things God delivered me from- road rage! Now, I have patience and am trying to teach my daughter that since she is driving now.
---miche3754 on 10/21/09


-- Warwick :

Amen Brother, Excellent first day post !

When a Brethren repents from his errors, God's Children are to Forgive, no longer continuing to count it against them but letting it lay in Forgiveness.

When we carry around & dredge-up repented sins, we're only attempting to slander a fellow Brethren in Christ who has received Forgiveness already from the Lord. When we do this it acts as a stumbling block to us & only stifles our Spiritual Walk in coming to the 'Alter', while also hindering & not helping others who are diligently enduring to receive & share the Gospel in Peace.

When we do not allow things to lay in Forgiveness, we are no longer the persecuted but have become the 'Persecutors' !!
---ShawnM.T. on 10/21/09


Cliff you have supplied nothing which causes me to think the Bible is anything less than God's Truth.

It seems we are not only reading from a different page, but from a different book. In my Bible Saul the Christian killer experiences a dramatic confrontation with Jesus, en route to Damascus. Which confrontation lead to his conversion-'at once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.' Acts 9:20

2 Peter 3:16 shows the Apostle Peter considered Paul's writings to be Scripture.

Saul the persecutor becomes Paul the apostle! BTW Jesus did not denounce Paul as from the devil!

You must spend considerable time trawling antiChristian sites to come up with such nonsense.
---Warwick on 10/21/09


Romans 1

1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh,

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


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-- MarkV :

Brother, Do you know the word 'AD HOMINEM' ?? It means to Attack the character or motives of a person, by appealing to the prejudice & emotions of others, rather than debating the issues.

God forbid we do this to others but when it's used to start a discussion the individual is frustrated & unable to express themselves or it's their last resort when they feel the sharing is at an impasse & they just want out.

When we're address this way, it's best just to say 'Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied'...b/c the conversation, if ever started, will only turn into a 'Maelstrom' and all the compassion & patience in the world isn't going to help them Hear God's True Word that's being shared.

God Bless
---ShawnM.T. on 10/20/09


I didn't say that we stop sinning. I said that if we are mature in Christ, we should sin a lot less than other people.
---miche3754 on 10/20/09

This is the realization that we all have, that the Scriptures describe as "There is none righteous, no not one".

This is what I was driving you to express, that we cannot be sinless or perfect apart from God making us so, but we can sin less over time and be progressively sanctified.

We slip up so easily. The longer I walk with Christ, the more He shows me little things that I do wrong. For example, if I am waiting in a line and I see someone who needs to get through before me, if I know Phil 2:3 and do not let them go first, it is a sin.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/20/09


markv, Until you become born-again, you will continue to bear false-witness and your sin will contionue to believe whatever you desire.
---Eloy on 10/20/09


Eloy, to begin with you again are wrong and here is why, you say "there is 1 Jesus and He is the Father" without going anymore to what other things you said, Jesus was born of Mary, He is not the Father. The Father was not born of Mary, Jesus was. He was given the name of Jesus, Matth. 21. He was human with flesh and blood. If you suggest He was the Father then you have got another heresy. If He was the Father then He and the Father were both born, and I guess He was talking to Himself half the times. No Eloy, The Son (Christ) was from all eternity in God, so was the Father and so was the Holy Spirit, One God not three.
---MarkV. on 10/20/09


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Eloy, 2: The New Testament speaks of Christ weeping, sweating, or being hungry, here we see human manifestations of Jesus human nature. When He wept, sweated, or hungered, He was still in perfect unity with His divine nature, but the tears, sweat, and hunger were not divine. God does not weep, sweat or gets hungry. The God-man did weep, but He did so in His humanity, not in His deity, likewise the God-man died on the cross, Jesus, but His divine nature did not die. If God has expired on the cross, the very universe would have ceased to exist.
---MarkV. on 10/20/09


Warwick, Our differences stem from a basic belief .You believe every word in the bible is "God-breathed" I do not. Why??
You take the words of Paul on par with God.
Paul was a dyed-in-the-wool Pharisee whom Jesus denounced as from the devil!
Acts 23.6 "Brothers I am (not used to be,not once was) a Pharisee, son of a pharisee" Sorry but that's what it says!
Do you not think writing 1/2 the NT influences people to feel that his words are truth???
---1st_cliff on 10/20/09


Mark E, you said that its impossible but God says otherwise.

You contradicted the Word of God.

It says if we walk in the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh and sin.
Everything is possible with God, isn't that his word.
I didn't say that we stop sinning. I said that if we are mature in Christ, we should sin a lot less than other people.
Please stop misquoting me.
Look at what God says.
I also said that we don't always walk in the Spirit that we all do sometimes walk in the flesh. That is why Christ is our advocate just in case we stumble.
So, again, its not to prove me a liar, because I didn't lie about anything. You did by saying its impossible. If it was, God would have said so.
---miche3754 on 10/20/09


Jesus is God's Son in that He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:35 declares, The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Jesus was declared to be , appointed to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead. What this means is that the resurrection from the dead demonstrated that Jesus is the divine Son of God who had authority over death and the grave.

This is why he alone is able to redeem us. Jesus said I am the resurrection.
I will raise you up.

##Hebrews 2 Tell it all!
---kathr4453 on 10/20/09


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Miche:

You have me really bothered.

You said in the other blog

"Mark E. said that we can't ever stop sinning. Thats what I called a lie"

This is what I believe and you can dispute it.

Show me a person who NEVER sins after being saved and NEVER sins the rest of their life, and I will show you a LIAR.

Paul even said:

Phil 3:12-13 "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet, but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/20/09


Thank you Markv.

1st Cliff, may I make a suggestion?

Read the book "The Shack".
God is one and 3 at the same time.
I know this is hard to wrap our human minds around but its the truth.

Another thing is, how is God omnipresent?
Everywhere at one time. Because part of him is in everything that was ever made.
John 1, "There is nothing that was made that wasn't made by Him."
God's Spirit over shadowed Mary and created a body for his Spirit. Before this happened, there was no way for us to have a relationship with God. He had to come, die on the Cross and Rise again to Give us Access back to him. Sin had seperated us from Adam on.
Another thing to think about, God is bound by HIS word.
---miche3754 on 10/20/09


Cliff, as I pointed out Scripture is written for us to understand, explaining things from our point of reference, and in terms we understand. In human terms we understand what begotten means but I would be surprized if anyone thought this meant Mrs God gave birth like a human!

"For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form.' Colossians 2:9

Mat.26: 39 As Scripture says Jesus was God in flesh-1 Tim. 3:16. I can imagine as a man Jesus would have preferred to avoid what He knew was coming. Nonetheless as He had humbled Himself to become a servant He submitted willingly to God's will.

Rev.3.14- you gave the quote so it is up to you to explain it!
---Warwick on 10/20/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, To Truly be accurate we should address the return of Christ Jesus as the 'Last Coming' !!!

Christ Jesus, God's Only Begotten Son is the Firstborn among many Brethren, but there's a reason why He's referred to as the "Last Adam", and not the "Second Adam".

While calling Adam who was made a Living Soul the 'First Adam' is accurate, to refer to Christ who was made a Quickening Spirit the 'Second Adam' would imply the possibility of a third, fourth, fifth...etc which isn't accurate b/c Jesus Christ is the Finisher, the Last piece : Reigning in Salvation that the world through Him might be Saved and is why He's referred to as the Last Adam !
---ShawnM.T. on 10/20/09


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Markv, Notice this writing: "Eloy said, Let us see what Eloy posts. And thus Eloy posted his things." Now did I speak to other Eloy's or other beings inside of myself in saying, "Let us see"? No, by no means. When God speaks in the plural it is because there is other beings other than himself in his presence, like the angels that he created and the powers of intelligence or knowledge and of seeing and etc. God is and has and always will be 1 Being and 1 Person, there is not 3 Beings neither are there 3 Gods- a polytheist, but only 1- The Monotheist. The Father is not 1 God and the Son another lesser God and then the Holy Ghost a third God, but there is only 1 Jesus, and he is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost.
---Eloy on 10/19/09


"Plural reference to God and the angels possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the genesis texts, in 1:26 "Our image" explained in 1:27, "in God's image", In 3:22 "Like One of Us" refers back to 3:5, "like God". All of these instances God is speaking to the angels and to the powers that he has made, and he is in no way speaking to other nonexistent Gods. For polytheism is false doctrine. Many believe in 3 Gods, but there is only 1, and I believe in him alone, The one and only Lord God Jesus, he alone is proven to be worthy of all obedience to his Commandments and worthy of all worship and acceptation.
---Eloy on 10/19/09


1st Cliff: Mt.26:39, lit.Gk: "...not as I joy, but as you." The Judeo-Christian oneness doctrine refers to the monotheistic deity of Jesus Christ being the One Almighty Lord God, the Creator of all. "Hear, O Israel: Yhwh our God, Yhwh One. Who is this King of glory? Yhwh of hosts, he the King of glory. Exalt. Know you all that Yhwh he God. His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Jesus says, I am the Alpha and the Omega, Beginning and Ending, says the Lord, which from being, and which to being, and which coming, The Almighty." Deuteronomy 6:4+ Psalm 24:10+ 100:3+ Isaiah 9:6+ Revelation 1:8.
---Eloy on 10/19/09


Miche, I respect your view on the Trinity. It is a subject that takes a lot of study and important to put Scripture down when answer. There is many None-Triniterians.
I also want to apologize to you for my behavior towards your answers. I am hard on you but only because I care so much about God and His Word. When I asked you if you were saved, you don't have to answer me there. I already know you are. It was to show that salvation is all of the Lord.
From now on please ask me whatever you disagree and I will answer you in the most repectful way, and if show disrespect, please point it out to me. I do love you, you know. That does not change.
---MarkV. on 10/19/09


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Warwick, *begoten ..to describe Jesus comming from God*
You got that right, no doubt Jesus came from God.
I'm not sure what you mean by this..
*fullness of the deity lives in human form*

Mat.26 39 "not as I will, but as you will"
Shows definatly Jesus has His OWN will seperate from His Father!
Maybe you can enlighten me on Rev.3.14???
---1st_cliff on 10/19/09


Markv, I liked your last post and how you clarified what you believe to Eloy.
Great desciption of how God is one and 3 at the same time.

I had addressed my last post to you because I thought you did believe God was 3 seperate persons.
I apologize for not waiting for your response to Eloy first. That would have clarified that we are on the same page on this subject.
---miche3754 on 10/19/09


Eloy, there is only One God, that is a fact. One single individual Being, But not one person. He is One Spirit (John 4:24). At least four times God speaks of or to Himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26, 3:22, 11:7, Isa. 6:8), and nontrinitarians interpetations cannot account for them. The Father is one person, the Son is one person, the Holy Spirit is one person, they all make One essence or Substance, the Godhead.
Plural reference to God and the angels possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the genesis texts, in 1:26 "Our image" explained in 1:27, "in God's image", In 3:22 "Like One of Us" refers back to 3:5, "like God"
---MarkV. on 10/19/09


Guys, God is one God with 3 Parts to him.
Markv, Jesus is the WORD made flesh.
That is how he was there at the foundation of the world.
It is difficult for our short human minds to comprehend HOW God is one and 3 at the same time, but he is.

If we look at Genesis, it says that God's Spirit was upon the face of the deep or waters which ever interpretation of scripture you read.
God's Spirit...hmmm and it said let US make man in our image.
But there was only one right? Right. So, that means God the Father(personage), God the Son(the Word), and God the Holy Spirit(God's Spirit) are one and the same with 3 parts.
I suggest reading "The Shack". It gives a wonderful description of God.
---miche3754 on 10/19/09


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Cliff, Jesus used illustrations such as shepherds, and sheep, to explain things in human terms. We say man gives birth to ideas, because the idea came from man. Scripture uses begotten, a common term, to describe Jesus coming from God.

God is not man, but spirit, living outside time/ space-not a physical being. Some antiTrinitarians imagine God (nonCorporal entity) mysteriously, improbably, divided in thirds! Not so!

'The fulness of the deity lives in human form.' Do you imagine Jesus became larger and heavier after God indwelt Him fully? Surely not!

One substance with the Father is an apt description of He who is 'in very nature God.'

What Scripture says 'Jesus is His own individual,makes His own decisions...?'
---Warwick on 10/19/09


Markv, There is only 1 God, not 3. "For to us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and overthrows the headmastership by his shoulder: and his name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9:6. Jesus says, "HE THAT HAS SEEN ME HAS SEEN THE FATHER." And I know my Father. Papa yahwah, yahagahan elohim, Lord Iesous, you alone are my Lord and my God, Papa Jesus. Christ God Jesus, you alone are my God and my Salvation. Papa yeshuah, let them who will not harden their heart but believe my word, let them come to know you even as I know you and am known of you, the one and only true God, and eternal life. In Christ God Jeus I pray. Amen.
---Eloy on 10/18/09


Yhwh is Yeshuah: Jesus is God. Know you all that Jesus, he God, none else.
---Eloy on 10/18/09


Warwick, "Scripture explains things in our terms from our reference point" (all except begot) you rather draw "homoousius" a term dreamed up by the Constantine crowd!
There's no such thing as "one substance with the father" Deut6.4 makes it clear that God is a "single" entity with no "hangers on"! Jesus is His own individual,makes His own decisions, no they're not "joined at the hip" as trinitarians imagine!
For 4 thousand yrs. God did not mention to His "special people" anything resembling a "trinity"!
---1st_cliff on 10/18/09


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Cliff, I cannot see how Revelation 3:14 says Jesus is created. I know this is the JW belief, but is not well founded, at all.

Colossians 1:5 says Jesus is creator of all things in heaven and earth whether visible or invisible. Everything created was created by Him, and for Him. Therefore He is not made, but the maker.

Certainly man begets man. However God is not man, having no wife to bear children. Therefore when applied to Jesus 'begotten' does not mean born, but of one substance with the Father, coming from the Father. Scripture explains things in our terms, from our reference point, as we have no other.

Once again you anthropomorphize God, imagining He has human hands and eyes.
---Warwick on 10/18/09


Eloy, here I have to disagree with you. Christ was always the Son from all eternity. The Father is always the Father from all eternity. The Father is not the Son nor the Son the Father. They are two different persons. The Son possess the nature of the Father. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, He was not physically procreated by God. The word "son" in Scripture means simply one possessing the same nature or essence, whether literal or fugurative.
1.He is self-existent- John 5:26
2. unchangeable- Hebr. 1:10-12, 13:8.
3. Eternal- John 1:1, 8:58, 17:5, Col. 1:17
4 Omnipresent- Matt. 18:20, 28:20, John 3:13, Eph. 1:23.
5 Omniscient- John 16:30, 21:17,
---MarkV. on 10/18/09


Warwick, Sorry but the scriptures contradict you ,Rev3.14. says Jesus was created, also God called Jesus "only begotten" see how many Saints were "begotten" in the OT, tell me what they meant when it says "and Abraham BEGOT Issac"
let the scripture do the "interpreting"!
Anthropomorphize???even God says He has hands, eyes etc...
---1stcliff on 10/18/09


Warwick,*If what we can believe is limited to our intelect and knowledge, then we're in trouble*
So are you suggesting that you possess the powers of a Shaman, Fakir, Clairvoyant that can see way beyond the sphere of us lowly humanoids? If so then ya I'm in trouble, since I have none of those attributes!
God has never spoken to me audibly,I've never actually heard His voice!
Maybe He thinks I'm a goat, but I can Baaa with the best of those who think they're sheep!
---1st_cliff on 10/18/09


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Cliff, as I have shown Scripture says Jesus created everything which was created. Moreso Scripture says everything was created 'by him and for him.' And that Jesus is not created, being before all things, and in him all things hold togerther, by His power!

But you reject Scripture if it contradicts your story. Your writings are non-Biblical opinion.

Jesus does not take credit for being Creator, Scripture proclaims He is. You have it backwards.

Of course the Son was with the Father-hard to be a Trinity if they weren't.

Again you anthropomorphise God.

If what we can believe is limited by our intellect and knowledge then we are in trouble. How can we imagine eternity, for example? We can only accept it.
---Warwick on 10/18/09


Warwick, If you buy a widget from the Smith corp.,Mr. Smith did not have to turn a wheel but takes the credit for his product.

In the same way God created,by His Son, all things, God takes the credit because He's the supreme being who made it all possible even tho He need not have personally did all the work! That's "co-creating"
Jn.1.1 says "with" ,right?
Explain a single individual who is "with" himself! (me, myself and I ???)(hey a trinity)
---1st_cliff on 10/17/09


MarkV, All the scriptures you cite are bona fide,except the Holy Spirit is not a
"person" but the power that both God and His Son Christ Jesus use to accomplish whatever!
The Father has a name (YHVH)
The Son has a name (Jesus)
The Holy spirit has no name!
God forgives,Jesus forgives ,the Holy Spirit does not,why? because it's not a "person"
Because he's addressed as a person does not make him one, one place he's called "it"!
Jn.16.13.KJV.
---1st_cliff on 10/17/09


Warwick ,Why would you cite a scripture from Hebrews as proof of a point when no one knows for sure who's words they are???
Some attribute Hebrews to Paul ,others dispute this,actually the author is "unknown" If you're a bible student you know this!
---1st_cliff on 10/17/09


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Cliff further to your 'co-creator comments' from experience I am aware this view come from the fact that John 1:1 reads 'Through him all things were made...' In the antiTrinitarian scenario this is taken to mean Jesus was the conduit through whom God created-the co-creator, not the creator. The fatal flaw with this story is that Hebrews 2:10 says everything was created 'through' God!

Therefore if 'through him all things were made' means Jesus isn't creator, then Hebrews 2:10 means God isn't creator either!

At any rate Colossians 1:15 says for by Jesus 'all things were created', as mentioned previously.

But you know this, as this has been covered quite a few times.
---Warwick on 10/17/09


Cliff, Jesus Son of God, Son of man. Son of God means He is of the one substance, therefore equal, with the Father. Son of Man= He is also human.

Colossians 2:9 'For in Christ all the fulness of the Deity lives in bodily form.' 1 Timothy 3:16 'God manifest (revealed) in flesh.' Hebrews 10:5 'therefore when Christ came into the world he said 'but a body you prepared for me' This is the mystery, that the Deity dwells fully within a human.

As I understand it was the Son of Man, who died upon the cross. As to the spirit fully God, as to the flesh, fully man!

To suggest Jesus is 1/2 man, 1/2 God shows you don't understand God is spirit, and not 1/2 of anything.
---Warwick on 10/17/09


1 cliff, I will give you passages that the Holy Spirit is God which I am sure will mean nothing to you since you are a protester against the Trinity, as Athiest is a protester against God. It will not change anything but here it is:
1. The Holy Spirit is equated with God in Acts 5:3-4, 2 Cor. 3:17-18,
2. The Holy Spirit has the incommunicable attributes of God, He is eternal- Hebrews 9:14, Omnipresent- Psa. 139:7, Omniscient-1 Cor. 2:10-11,
3. The Holy Spirit is involve in all of the works of God, Creation- Gen. 1:2, Incarnation-Matt. 1:18, 20, Luke 1:35, Resurrection- Romans 1:4, 8:11, In salvation- Romans 8:1-27.
4. The Holy Spirit is One person- Matt. 28:19, is One The helper-John 14:16.
---MarkV. on 10/17/09


Markv, Scripture says that Jesus is the Father: the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. Once a person accepts that Jesus Christ is perfect God just as he has said and proven himself to be, then that is half of the spiel. The Bible says that God became flesh, the man Christ Jesus, and dwelt among us. "Emmanuel" God with us. This is easy to accept when you know that God can do all things: if he wants to put on flesh and be born in a stable where lambs are born, he can, and if he wants to put on sin when he is sinless, he can, and if he wants to go to hell and minister to the captives, he can, and if he wants to raise himself back up to life, he can do that also: for what is impoosible with humans, is quite easy for Jesus.
---Eloy on 10/17/09


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Markv, Scripture says that Jesus is the Father: the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father. Once a person accepts that Jesus Christ is perfect God just as he has said and proven himself to be, then that is half of the spiel. The Bible says that God became flesh, the man Christ Jesus, and dwelt among us. "Emmanuel" God with us. This is easy to accept when you know that God can do all things: if he wants to put on flesh and be born in a stable where lambs are born, he can, and if he wants to put on sin when he is sinless, he can, and if he wants to go to hell and minister to the captives, he can, and if he wants to raise himself back up to life, he can do that also: for what is impossible with humans, is quite easy for Jesus.
---Eloy on 10/17/09


Cliff Bible-believers trust God's word. And we can draw things from Scripture. God nowhere says He created Adam with eyes, however it is unreasonable to assume He didn't.

'God the Son' is a deduction. Jesus said He was God, His enemies said He claimed to be God, the apostles said He was God, and most of all God says He is God. The term 'the Son of God' means He is equal to God, as 'the Son of Man' is equal to man.

Jesus is not co-Creator as Colossians 1:15 says 'For by Him all things were created...'

The word 'Trinity' is a deduction which describes Biblical reality. The term 'Pre-diluvian' is not in Scripture but do you say there were no people living before the flood. Surely not!
---Warwick on 10/17/09


Warwick, By the way ,you say you "only" follow scripture, right?
You cite "God the Son" (last post) Show me the scripture that says exactly that!
You know and I know it doesn't exist (part of the trinitarian brain wash)
You really need to check your cliche's.
---1st_cliff on 10/16/09


Warwick, According to Jn.1.1 Jesus was co-creator!
Your suggestion that Jesus is/was the Almighty Father is ludacris---why? because God is "immortal" and could not die on a cross or anywhere else, that's why He "sent" His Son.
If He did not send His "only begotten Son" then I'm hopelessly involved with the wrong religion!
Scripture says "1st Adam and 2nd Adam (Jesus)
Was 1st Adam 1/2 god 1/2 man???
FYI They were exact equals, perfect!
---1st_cliff on 10/16/09


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Christ was not born a spirit being so his birth was not a "coming"

---Rhonda on 10/11/09


Rhonda in light of OT scripture Jesus birth, the promised Messiah AKA: Christ, the Begotten Son of God, being fully God, fully man was a Coming. He came in the Flesh. He came from above to here below. John 17 says He was with the Father in a glorified state before humbling Himself, leaving GLORY for you and me..to be born of a virgin. You do not deny that Christ came in the Flesh, but do you deny He was fully God who came in the flesh? as 1st John says.

Second Coming **Acts 1:11


---kathr4453 on 10/16/09


Mark V: Would you be good enough to show me just one scripture that says "God the Holy Spirit"??
When Jesus was talking to the Father,how many persons were in this conversation???
Deut.6.4 does not say "One God in three persons" it simply states that YHVH is ONE (singular) God! true or false?
When did Jesus ever say "we/us"???
---1st_cliff on 10/16/09


Cliff your examples do not illustrate Jesus is not God, for example,

While on earth God the Son submitted Himself to the Father, as Scripture says.
In Biblical times kings would ask a visiting king to sit at their right hand, indicating equality.
Your confusion stems from your idea that God is some sort of super-human, super-powerful, but restricted in time and space. He is not, He is spirit, not limited in any way.
Let me give a frivolous answer to your store jibe. They sold the store!
God is 1 but none the less talks of us and we. Colossians 1:15 shows Jesus is the creator God, who made everything that was created. He obviously did not create Himself.
God is a Trinity, three in one, not a triad of Gods.
---Warwick on 10/16/09


For your consideration HEB 8 28...
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people, and He will appear a
SECOND TIME , not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
---Pierre on 10/16/09


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Eloy, good answers. What I believe gives opposers of the Trinity power or ideas to speak against Jesus, is because the Son took human form. And while in human form He was submissive to the God the Father who is Spirit. The Spirit of God was in Jesus, but He communicated with God the Father as a human would. If Jesus was in Spirit form He would have said, "We" "us" in the conversation. 1 Cliff says, "who was minding the store?" God the Father was. Who was working in the life's of others? God the Holy Spirit. Jesus baptism was through His human form. He is also seated at the right hand of the Father. Deut. 6:4 The Lord is One, does not say One person. He is One God, in three persons.
---MarkV. on 10/16/09


1st Cliff, I see what is in your heart. I have not given you any fancy dancing, as you say, but every single word I have given is straight scripture and straight from the Word and from Christ's own mouth. Cliff, until you accept the truth, you will believe whatever you desire. For it is for me to preach the straight truth, and for the hearer to either accept the truth or else to harden their heart against the truth and thereby accept falsehood in the place of the truth.
---Eloy on 10/16/09


Will one whom is preached the truth from Christ, say the truth from Christ is copying paganism? Whom manifestedly follows and worships Christ alone as commanded, the dissers, or the born-again Christians?
---Eloy on 10/16/09


Eloy, I know you mean well, but all that fancy dancing doesn't show Jesus and His Father are the same person.
#1 Jesus prayed to His Father -- that's 2
#2 Jesus sits on the right hand of His Father--that's 2
#3 Jesus said "My Father is greater than I"--that's 2
#4 Jesus' baptism, He's in the water, God's voice from heaven--that's 2
#5 If Jesus was Almighty God on earth,who was minding the store???
#6 YHVH is only "ONE" person Deut.6.4.
#7 Let's not copy the pagan gods!
---1st_cliff on 10/15/09


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1st cliff, Yhwh, he God, none else. Yeshuah (Jesus) says: Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I Am. For I am The Lord. I level my life, and I raise it again. I am The Almighty. He that has seen me has seen The Father. And no one always stepped in heaven except he out of heaven came down, the Son of man who from being in the heaven. And Jesus went to them, walking on the sea, and said, Take courage: I am, be not afraid. I am Light to the world. I am from above, I am not of this world: for if you all believe not that I Am, you all will die in your sins. Which of you maligns me of sin? I am the door, by me if anyone enter in, that one will be Saved. I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd gives his life for the sheep.
---Eloy on 10/15/09


Jesus is called "The" Almighty, not "a" Almighty. Isaiah 9:6 + Revelation 1:8. YHWH is YESHUAH: Jesus is God. "Hear, O Israel: Yhwh our God, Yhwh One. Who is this King of glory? Yhwh of hosts, he the King of glory. Exalt. Know you all that Yhwh he God." Deuteronomy 6:4+ Psalm 24:10+ 100:3.
---Eloy on 10/15/09


Cluny, Jn.1.1 says the Logos was "with" God

In English "with" indicates more than one.
Get an Interlinear see that there are "Theos" and "hoTheos"..God and theGod..

Now how would you write "a" God if there was no article "a" in the Greek language???
Easy, just leave it out and say the "Logos was...God" works for you if you're a trinitarian!
---1st_cliff on 10/14/09


1 john 1:14 and the word (Christ) became flesh(incarnate) and dwelt among us.....
1 Jesus came as a lamb
2Jesus comes as a lion
---jerry on 10/14/09


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\\ Nowhere in scripture does it say "Jesus is God incarnate"\\

Read John 1.

That's what it means.

The Word was God--and was incarnate.

If that doesn't mean Jesus is God Incarnate, then words have no meanings.
---Cluny on 10/14/09


no. Because eventhough his body expired on earth, he raised it up again from the earth. His 1st coming was in Bethlehem, he left the earth and ascended up to his heaven, then he is coming again very soon, this is his 2nd coming to his earth from his heaven- not his 3rd.
---Eloy on 10/14/09


Amen JESUS is GOD incarnate that is how HIS death and blood can atone for the sins of all mankind.
---Samuel on 10/14/09


1st Cliff:

The Scriptures may not exactly say "Jesus is God incarnate", but that is certainly IMPLIED:


Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God,..."

John 14:9 "Jesus said to him, Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, how can you say, Show us the Father?"

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/13/09


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Cluny, "Glorified body"?
When He showed Thomas, He still had the holes in His hands and side !!!
Nowhere in scripture does it say "Jesus is God incarnate"
He's still and will forever be "The Son of God"
---1st_cliff on 10/13/09


\\
Christ died and on the third day his resurrected body was in spirit form\\

Wrong.

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. His human nature is now forever linked to His divine nature.

He rose from the dead in His glorified human body.

Since His human nature is FOREVER united to His Divine nature, He could not have been "changed" into a "spirit Creature," as Jehovah's false witnesses claim.
---Cluny on 10/12/09


Cluny hit in the doorknob:

"
No, because nobody but you seems to consider the Resurreciotn a "second coming."

The term "Second Coming" has always been used to refer to His return in glory to rapture the Church and administer judgement at the end of the Tribulation and initiating the eternal kingdom (no, there is no earthly Millennium).

Don't confuse the issue."

The Second Coming of Jesus Christ, per Holy Scriptures, occurs at the end of the age, after the Tribulation. The General Resurrection is never called "the second coming" in Holy Scriptures.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/12/09


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