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Jesus Returns For Us

Why did Jesus say that He would return to get us and take us to where He is if we are already with Him when we die?

Moderator - What's scripture as you are mixing some oranges with some apples.

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 ---jerry6593 on 10/15/09
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MarkV: So what was the score for unconscious vs. conscious dead people?
---jerry6593 on 11/13/09


Jerry, I have the word study Bible of the Old and New Testament. I do a word study before I answer. I believe it is you who is stuck in your believes that nothing anyone gives you will do any good. Actually, I believe you are here with a purpose to push the SDA faith.
I know there are many SDA's here but I don't see them pushing their believes but answering in great ways about all topics. Their purpose is different then yours. I don't mind, that is why I answer you. Not to change you, but just to discuss Scripture. It allows me to keep searching each day for more of God's Word. When I have a problem with a topic, not a denomination, I ask for help from brothers who might know. Then I check what they say with Scripture.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


MarkV: "Jerry, the passage in Job does not make you correct."

The scripture has nothing to do with me. It says what it says. You give your opinions, and I give you scriptures. Do yourself a favor. Do a word search on soul and on sleep. Give a point to each scripture that implies immortality and consciousness in death, and give a point to each one that implies an unconscious rest in death until the resurrection. Add them up and see which "theory" the Bible supports.
---jerry6593 on 11/10/09


Jerry, the passage in Job does not make you correct. If God took the spirit and the breath of anyone they would for sure die. That has nothing to do with what we were talking about. That passage actually gives proof that man has a Spirit. And if God took it away together with the breath, (soul) the person for sure would die.
We are talking about the time of the Second Coming Jerry. Not before. When believers die and are buried, their spirit goes to be with the Lord. When Jesus Comes the buried bodies will be taken. They will become incorruptable and immortal.
I gave you answers from Scripture about immortality and you refuse the Word, but for the wrong reason Jerry. Study to be approve by God, not by your church teachings.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


MarkV: Unfortunately, your concept of individual, immortal, non-corporeal spirit entities is not substantiated by the Bible. It is not YOUR SPIRIT that returns to God at your death, but rather GOD'S BREATH.

Job 34:14,15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself HIS spirit and HIS breath, All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
---jerry6593 on 11/9/09




Jerry, no. It is the physical body we are talking about immortality. The corrupt flesh which died been turned into incorruption and from mortal to immortality for believers. The Spirit has no body. The Spirit of a believer is not corrupt. The flesh is. The believers will get a new body that will come together with the Spirit and that person will be prepared for eternal life with Christ.
Of course the wicked get another body also, prepared for hell.
---MarkV. on 11/8/09


MarkV: "The Spirit does not die, they are already with Christ." Isn't that the definition of immortal - they don't die? And if they are already immortal, then why do they need to "put on" immortality? If they are already with Christ, then why does He need to come back for them? Do you think He needs some decayed old bodies to make them whole? Is earth the only place God can create?

I find such logic as yours self-contradictory. If you are comfortable in it, well, bless your heart.
---jerry6593 on 11/8/09


Jerry, I don't know of what I said that is confusing.
You gave exactly what I said in my response to you about 1 Tim 6:14-16 which says, "That you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until the Lord Jesus Christ appearing, Which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, King of Kings and Lord of lords."
At that time, which is the same time that you put down from 1 Cor. 15:51-53. Glorification will start then when the bodies of those saved gets glorified. Those which are in the ground and those who are alive when He comes. From mortal bodies to immortality from corruption to incorruption. The Spirit does not die, they are already with Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/7/09


The host declares, "I go make your bed", we are spending the night, here about not spending the night but eternity. When?
What hinders us from going to him? Don't we know "whither" he went and the "way" there? Thomas then and Jerry (Tom & Jerry) now, did not know where and how.
To make doctrine of a point without considering its validation added after the point was made is not wise, we throw away the proof and the evidence.
The way: Through Him.
The abode: In Him and in the Father, John 14:10.
John 14:18-23. No rapture, just the facts as stated in John 14. Ok, one mystery: "I go to the Father", but the Father was in Him and He in the Father...
Ain't no mountain high enough...
---Nana on 11/7/09


MarkV: Although your lengthy response is confused and self-contradicting, I think you are getting close.

Point 1. We are not currently immortal - only God is.

Point 2. We do not become immortal when we die - we sleep until the resurrection at the 2nd coming of Christ.

Point 3. We "put on" immortality at the second coming - whether dead or alive at the time.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
---jerry6593 on 11/7/09




Amen, Right On, and Bravo! If everyone would read "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on Google, they would have a good balance re the rapture debate. One can argue theology and even church history until Doomsday, but how can anyone argue about, or defend, plain old dishonesty? Jon
---Jon on 11/6/09


Jerry 2 continue: When he speaks of God who alone has immortality he is still speaking of a God that from eternity past to eternity future is the only one with that kind of immortality. The passage is still speaking about the Sovereign King of kings and Lord of lords. If he was speaking of those who are saved, that one day they too will become immortal, he would have said what Scripture declares that we change from mortals to immortality, from corruption to incorruption. You just cannot take a passage and make it law unto itself and make a religion out of it. There are some thing we don't understand but those points we do because they are told to us.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


Margaret MacDonald did not read tarot cards [duh!] and wasn't an occultist [duh!]. For the real skinny on her, Google "X-Raying Margaret," and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" is good too!
---Jon on 11/6/09


Jerry, you try to hard to make passages speak for your believes that you forget to read the context to make sure you read the word of God correctly. Here again is a passage in 1 Tim. which doesn't say that others will not become immortal or not. What it does say is, that Christ return is imminent, which should be enough motivation for the man of God to remain faithful to His calling until he dies or the Lord returns (Acts 1:8-11, 1 Cor. 4:5, Rev. 22:12). v. 15 "In His own time" is the time, known only to Him, that God established in eternity past for Christ to return (Mark 13:32, Acts 1:1:7). Paul continues to speak about the sovereign and omnipotent God we have whom no man man has seen or can see. God in Spirit is invisible
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


This point leads to the question why do we have to be resurrected from the dead if we live with GOD without a body already?

Also note the point of argument here.

Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
---Samuel on 11/6/09


MarkV: The Bible says that only God is immortal (1Ti 6:16). Thus, your speculations to the contrary are anti-biblical.

Again, why sould He come to get us if we're already with Him??? Where's the logic in that?
---jerry6593 on 11/6/09


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Jerry, again you are speculating. Nothing you said is written in Scripture. It might and it might not does not flow with Truth. When Peter was speaking he was quoting something said in the Old Testament. Qouting something from the pass does not make it a present event. It was a Ps. quote.
Of couse we are in Christ already, and when we die we will continue to be with Christ spiritually. At the Second Coming all the dead bodies of those who were in Christ will resurrect to a new body, and those still alive who are in Christ will also be caught up. No speculation there. How God receives ashes of those dead we are not told. And please do not speculate you know how.
---MarkV. on 11/5/09


MarkV: "The Old Testament saints were taken when Christ resurrected."

Apparently not ALL the OT saints - David was still in the grave years later when Peter made those remarks. The Bible says that "many" were involved in that special resurrection, but not ALL. It may very well be that there were only 24 - the number of elders in heaven.

"True believers in Spirit are already with Christ, when they die, in spirit they are already with Christ, and at death they will receive their bodies prepared for heaven."

This is a pagan, non-biblical teaching. It denies the resurrection and the necessity of the 2nd coming. Again, why sould He come to get us if we're already with Him???
---jerry6593 on 11/5/09


Jerry, John 14:1-4 you will notice that Jesus waited for Judas to leave 13:30 before making the quote about leaving and coming again for them at a later time. He had to leave in order for the Comforter to come. None had been endwelled by the Spirit yet. While alive He could only save so many, but in the Spirit thousands would come. The disciples were devastated that He was going to leave so Jesus comfort them by telling them it was ok for Him to leave, that He would come again. His coming in the context was at the end of the age. When He would come, He would collect His own, the bodies of those who are dead in Christ and those who were alive in Christ at the time of His arrival.
The Old Testament saints were taken when Christ resurrected.
---MarkV. on 11/3/09


Jerry 2 continue: When you read Acts 2:25-35, he was quoting Psa. 16:10. At the time David was talking, he had not ascended to heaven. He was under the sworn words of God. By Peter quoting Psa, 16 he was reminding the Jews, that David's body had never been raised so he could not be the fulfillment of the prophecy of Psa. 16. Peter exposits the meaning of Psa. 16 as refering not to David but to Jesus Christ. He would be raised to reign (v. 30). David knew that God would keep His oath (2 Samuel 7:11-16) and Christ would come.
True believers in Spirit are already with Christ, when they die, in spirit they are already with Christ, and at death they will receive their bodies prepared for heaven.
---MarkV. on 11/3/09


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MarkV: One more time:

Joh 14:2,3 ... I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

It makes no sense for Jesus to come and get us if we're already with Him. Thus, we will be still waiting in the grave at the second coming. Here's an example:

Act 2:29,34 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. .... For David is not ascended into the heavens:
---jerry6593 on 11/3/09


Jerry, the moderator is correct. you have to give the passages you are talking about. You seem to be talking about two or three accounts. All you did was speak about a return and taking us. Is anyone been taken? or they still around someplace in another deminsion? Or we here and there at the same time? What is it you are speaking about?
That is why the comments are coming from everywhere.
---MarkV. on 11/2/09


Think for yourself and do your own verification. I gave you verses, name and history.
---Pastor_Jim on 10/31/09

Already have, perhaps you should.

This is what I know. The OT shows many passages for "the day of the Lord" that cannot be a 24-hour time. These passages include God's wrath and many millenial reign scenes. The passages in Joel coincide almost exactly with the sixth seal.

What is almost certain taking in all the OT passages is that the Day of the Lord starts with natural disasters caused by God's wrath, and ends with the millenial kingdom.

Does this fit your commentaries?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/2/09


StevenG:

When you said "The pretribers will take the mark of the beast not knowing it is the mark of the beast because they think they will be raptured before the antichrist hands out the mark and, therefore, accept the mark of the beast as just another human thing."

This is YOUR opinion. You have no scriptural basis for this statement.

This is equivalent to saying that all people whose name is STEVEN will take the mark of the beast and will be deceived.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/2/09


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I even explained what Tribulation means and how it is different from Wrath.
---Pastor_Jim on 10/31/09

My, you are stiff-necked!

Your internet stuff is junk. Did you ever read the MM prophesy? Never mentioned pre-Trib. Like I said, the internet spreads lies, and this is another one. Go do more internet searching.

Your definition of trib makes no sense, in the fact that the wrath of God and the Lamb is specifically cited in Rev 6 before the trib word is ever used. The period is about wrath, pure and simple.

You need to put away your commentaries and read the true word.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/2/09


All this pre-trib/post-trib stuff is ducking the topic. The issue of this blog is the location of people when they die. Are they in heaven with Jesus as soon as they die, or are they waiting in the grave for him to return to "receive them unto Himself - that where He is there they may be also"?

As for the pre/post thing, I think you are both right - sort of. God never takes us "out" of trouble, He takes us "through" it.

Psa 91:78 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
---jerry6593 on 11/1/09


Mark, I gave you several, several biblical verses that leave absolutely NO DOUBT that you will go through the tribulation and as our LORD said several times "ON THE LAST DAY I WILL ...". I even explained what Tribulation means and how it is different from Wrath.

I also gave you the complete history of where and when the heresy started and by whom. So what else is there?

You either accept the direct word of Christ or you follow the pastors and fad of this day. Think for yourself and do your own verification. I gave you verses, name and history.

Again...
I did my part, I'm done!
---Pastor_Jim on 10/31/09


My words are justified by Scripture. Prove that what I say is wrong according to prophesy. Would you even recognize the end times if you were walking through it? Is there no fear of God before your eyes? When the truth is spoken or written, do you mock it because it does not conform to your personal beliefs? Most christians will even mock the two prophets mentioned in Revelation because they do not conform to their personal beliefs and what they were taught.
---Steveng on 10/31/09


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Remember that Satan is the father of lies and confusion. The pretribers will take the mark of the beast not knowing it is the mark of the beast because they think they will be raptured before the antichrist hands out the mark and, therefore, accept the mark of the beast as just another human thing.
---Steveng on 10/30/09

I am starting to believe that YOU are the father of lies.

Where did you get such an outlandish statement from? What Scripture do you read this from, the Book of Steveng?

This is sheer opinion and dogma. Never have I heard such a devisive opinion. Why don't you just say that pre-Trib people are going to hell?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/31/09


It's not my job to convince you. That's up to you and the Holy Spirit.

I did my part and spoke to you.

Take Care
---Pastor_Jim on 10/30/09

What, is that it? Your theories are so weak that any challenge to them and you take your toys and run home? Where is all that seminary learning?

You never answered any of my questions, yet I tried to answer yours. Is this the kind of discussion you have? Do you consider me less than your equal and will not debate with me?

You were the one who claimed Pre-Trib was heresy by some crap you read on the internet. Is that were you do your Bible study? The internet is full of LIES.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/31/09


Steven G, maybe you should go to a church and get some lessons, because the prophets you talked about did not tell you anything about God or Satan. I have read the Bible and found out that Satan is not Omnipresent. He cannot be at every place at the same time. You give him more credit that he deserves, that is one argument you use all the time. He does not go around lying to each individual as they are born just because he lied to Eve. How could he be lying to everyone? And he is not Omniscient either, so he doesn't know who has been lied to already, you are talking about billions of people. Makes no sense whatsoever. The world is called the system of unbelief. People born of Adam are in unbelief from the time they are born.
---MarkV. on 10/31/09


MarkV: "why is it that it has to be Satan who is at fault for someone interpreting the coming of Christ the way they do?"

Just because Satan is the father of lies and of confusion. Read the bible and see how he lied to Eve and even to Jesus. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
---Steveng on 10/30/09


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Mark_Eaton: "no TRUE christian will take the mark of the beast."

Remember that Satan is the father of lies and confusion. The pretribers will take the mark of the beast not knowing it is the mark of the beast because they think they will be raptured before the antichrist hands out the mark and, therefore, accept the mark of the beast as just another human thing.

Mark_Eaton: "read the results of the trumpets, bowls judgments. Would you want your spouse to go through that?"

The christian faith will be tested to the extreme during these perilous times. Read all end-time prophecies concerning human behavior.
---Steveng on 10/30/09


Please recite the great commision. We are to preach the Gospel to all the world until the coming of the Lord. Not 7 years before he comes.

Jesus prays to the Father in John 17:14 " I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one."

It's not my job to convince you. That's up to you and the Holy Spirit.

I did my part and spoke to you.

Take Care
---Pastor_Jim on 10/30/09


Again this is your "interpretation" contrary to the thousands of translations that say "after". The Greek word is after. If it was before (as you say) then it would have said so in English.
---PAST_JIM on 10/29/09

Please show me the thousand of translations of the BIBLE that contain the word AFTER in the verse Revelation 7:14. I search thirty or more myself and I could not find one. The ESV and Youngs used the word "coming out" as opposed to "come out" but no after as you say.

If you are reading commentaries, perhaps you should read the real word itself.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/30/09


Steveng:

Your logic holds no water.

First, has there ever been a great Tribulation before? Except for the flood, has the wrath of God ever been poured out on the entire world since?

Second, dead are raised to be present for Rev 18:7-10 the marriage of the Lamb.

Third, no TRUE christian will take the mark of the beast. I believe very few will be saved during the Trib at all. Rev 16:11 says it all, "and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and they did not repent of their deeds"

Fourth, read the results of the trumpets, bowls judgments. Would you want your spouse to go through that? Why would Jesus?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/30/09


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These are the direct words of Christ,unlike your pastor who says this "means" rather than Christ SAID!
---PAST_JIM on 10/29/09

Barking Scripture is not a discussion.

If you tell me not to believe my pastor, why should I believe you, even if you are a pastor? My father is a pastor and I do not agree with him on everything.

The Scriptures you are quoting descibe the "last day". Is that one single 24 hour period or could it be longer. Is that "last day" the same as the OT "day of the Lord"?

As a matter of fact, I have asked you several questions which you have chosen to ignore. Please answer them if you are truly trying to convince me.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/30/09


Steven G, why is it that it has to be Satan who is at fault for someone interpreting the coming of Christ the way they do? Why isn't it the fault of the reader of Scripture? Why do you have to give the glory to Satan for everything wrong that man does? If its Satan's fault then I suppose man is not guilty of anything. When we stand before God, lets blame Satan. You are wrong Steven G. Maybe God wants to keep you from knowing at this moment what He wants someone else to know now? You say the denominations are the fault of Satan, now interpreting the coming of Christ is also the fault of Satan. We should not be deceived and to be aware, aware of people who twist things around.
---MarkV. on 10/30/09


Today's christians who believe in the pretrib rapture is believing a lie created by Satan. First, using the bible as it's own reference, godly people have never been "raptured" before the tribulation - not Noah, not the Israelites in Egypt, etc. We are ALL in His end-time plan together. Second, most christians believe that they are to escape the tribulation - so why are the dead raised also? Third, Satan wants you to believe this rapture lie so that christians will take the Mark of the Beast more easily, without their knowledge.

The time is at hand so pray that you and yours are worthy to recieve the mark of God.
---Steveng on 10/29/09


Again this is your "interpretation" contrary to the thousands of translations that say "after". The Greek word is after. If it was before (as you say) then it would have said so in English. Again you ignore what Christ stated in John 6:39-6:54/11:24/12:48/17:15
Dan 12:1-3 Thes 4-6 math: 24:29-31.
Also Wrath is for the wicked only. Tribulation is for the believers only. It comes for the word Tribul (A sled used the separate the Chaff from the Wheat)
These are the direct words of Christ,unlike your pastor who says this "means" rather than Christ SAID!
---PAST_JIM on 10/29/09


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"These are the ones that come AFTER the Tribulation
---PASTOR_JIM on 10/29/09

Totally incorrect in grammatical Greek.

The word "after" is NOT contained in the sentense and is not even impled. The verb "come" is present tense but the context of the sentense is past tense (washed, made) which makes the action start in the past with present continuation. It will then read:

"these are the ones who have come out from before the Tribulation".

The Apostles and church fathers believed the words of Revelation, and Daniel, and Jesus. They believed that the return of Jesus would come BEFORE and LEAD TO a literal thousand-year reign of righteousness and peace on earth.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/29/09


TO ANSWER YOUR FIRST POST

Read your verse again. "These are the ones that come AFTER the Tribulation". There is absolutely no verse in the Bible that talks about a Pre-tribulation Rapture, There are 100 verses+ that specifically say.."On the LAST day. Read John 6:39-6:54. Either Jesus is lying or your Pastor is lying. Your 2nd post answer, Neither verse you recite says you will not go through wrath. Read on, Paul tells you when he is coming to rescue you.

Churches today follow their traditions (new or old) and their deceiving Pastors over scripture. 1st Thes is Paul addressing a question on if the evil has already come nothing else. If this is the case at your church. Then ask,Am I following him (Pastor) or HIM.
---PASTOR_JIM on 10/29/09


First of all Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Heresy!
---PASTOR_JIM on 10/28/09

Please explain what the verses like this mean:

1 Thes 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come"

What is this "wrath to come"? It is not God's judgment on sin because it is not called wrath in that context.

Romans 2:5 talks about a day of wrath. When is that day? Could it be the Tribulation? Rev 6 talks about the wrath of Him who sits on the throne and from the Lamb. Seems like this is the day of wrath.

If we are rescued from the wrath to come, this day of wrath, this Tribulation, how will that come about if we are still alive?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/29/09


So why is it popular today?

Because antichrists such Ricky Warren, LeHay, Joel Osteen etc found out that if you tell "Christian" that they (unlike the rest of Bible history) would not go through the tribulation VIOLA! You get a mega church and lots of people who not have an easy,no hassle religion. At Rickys church all you need to say is "Me Too" when he says the "sinners prayer". At Joel's church he no longer allows the word sin, so the antichrist Joel has now change Gods word to Mistakes. It is a very carnal bourgeoise concept and it plays well the with light weights, praise music, pseudo Christians. That is why these churches are very popular mega churches and why these books sell.
CONTINUED...
---PASTOR_JIM on 10/28/09


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Mark_Eaton: "...this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group."

The verse shows that the group of people as a whole at that particular instant in time in the future. Remember that the book of Revelation if prophetic. The Angel showed John that this group of people came from the tribulation. Not all at once, but these are the martyrs during the entire tribulation and are now here.

Besides, the verses are: "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Past Tense.
---Steveng on 10/28/09


Just read your blog on the "Rapture" in Rev.7

First of all Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a Heresy!

It was started by an occultist, tarot card reader witch, named a Margaret Macdonald in Scotland (Google it). Them Pastor John Darby (UK) who was losing his congregation and decided to visit her and she told him this heresy (in a trance of course) he used this lie to rebuild his church in the UK, then his best friend and member of his congregation John Scoffield wrote the Scoffield Study Bible on his way to America. In it Scoffield puts this heresy in his study bible. He was already a cult member of Darby's church. It was then deemed a heresy here in the U.S., but some Baptist adopted it.

CONTINUED......
---PASTOR_JIM on 10/28/09


For all you Rapture deniers:

Please explain who the great multitude is in Rev. 7.

The Bible says they are ""These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb"

The phrase, "the ones who come" translates a Greek substantival participle. The participle in and of itself does not speak to issue of the timing of their arrival. However, this group is not in the process of coming one by one, but they come as a group.

A multitude that arrives in a single instant, what is that?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/28/09


The ultimate in being selfish is to think they will be raptured and let the lost defend for themselves during the tribulation.

God wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. If christians disappeared before the tribulation, who would be around to carry out God's plan of salvation to the lost? God wouldn't want anyone to go to hell. Christians, the few that are around during the tribulation, will need to be on earth to bing salvation to the lost.

A christian needs to seriously brush up on their bartering skills to survive the last three and a half years. blessed are those that endure until the end.
---Steveng on 10/27/09


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Jerry, I have followed your comments and I agree with you. Maybe I missed something but I am pretty sure you have it correct. I am not in favor of the Rapture either, and I have many reason why. I believe that Lehay's books are not truth. And many well known Bible speakers also believe on the Tribulation after the Rapture (the Second Coming) and later the again coming of Christ for judgment. The return of Christ will not be secret, in fact it will be the loudest noise anyone has ever heard. Because "as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" Matt. 24: v.27.
---MarkV. on 10/27/09


the rapture DENIES the resurrection - that is VERY CLEAR
---Rhonda on 10/25/09

How exactly is that IF the Rapture is the first resurrection?

I cannot follow the remainder of your post. Please ellaborate.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/27/09


Rhonda: Good points! I suppose thet the secret rapture crowd would like to change the Bible to read "the next to the last trump," rather than "the last trump."
---jerry6593 on 10/26/09


It is very obvious that there is a snatching up of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ prior to the tribulation.
*****

no it is simply misapplied scripture by those who promote the lie of a "rapture"

the rapture DENIES the resurrection - that is VERY CLEAR

When Christ RETURNS at the LAST TRUMP there is no additional return "later"

the key word is LAST TRUMP when ALL who ever lived in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be RESURRECTED to ETERNAL LIFE 1Corin 15 ...at this time DEATH will be DEFEATED where we reign in the Kingdom of God on EARTH

if death is defeated PRIOR to the trib (times of trouble) then ALL WHO DIE (even those who DENY Christ) would live eternally
---Rhonda on 10/25/09


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Donna: "A visual return in the clouds?
Yes, BUT I don't see it in THIS passage."

As a biblical scholar, I'm sure you understand the principle of comparing scripture with scripture to glean the true meaning. Jesus' promise is to return and get us to take us with Him ("I am the way"). That event is universally singular in the Bible, and is attended by the FIRST resurrection. He doesn't return for us individually, as:

Mat 24:27,30 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.... then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
---jerry6593 on 10/24/09


There are only two resurrections.

The first is upon the soon to return of Jesus in which the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with the dead. The dead are not living but are asleep until Jesus returns. Many christians believe they are to escape the tribulation, but why would the dead be raised if they won't feel a thing?

The second is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ in which all the other dead are raised and judged from the Book of Life according to their works.

Blessed are they that rise in the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 10/23/09


I was looking in Mark 27:13...in Jesus coming and gathering His elect. But these are His people who are still living. Yes, when you die your Spirit lives on and goes either to be with the Lord, or if you are lost goes to hell. Until the "The Great Judgment Day". At that time all the dead will rise. [from the grave. Our spirit will be united with our bodies. This is all I can remember on this right now. The lost will be found guilty and sentenced to eternal hell the saved will be found not guilty and will be with God forever....This I also know.
---catherine on 10/23/09


Jeff: "Well I am concerned by the ignorance concerning this subject"

This seems like a somewhat arrogant statement, particularly in view of the non-biblical statements which follow.

"It is very obvious that there is a snatching up of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ prior to the tribulation"

Reread 1 Thes 4. There is no mention of the concept "prior to the tribulation."

"we will looking [sic] for the Anti Chrsit to appear first and then we know that the Lord will return 7 years later"

There is no New Testament support for this theory. It is a mis-application of Daniel's Messiah prophecy in Dan 9.
---jerry6593 on 10/23/09


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jerry6593 --- The Rapture verses you cite are very familiar.
Yes, He will come visibly in the clouds.

But what in Jn 14: 2-3 makes you think He's talking about a
a visual return in the clouds?

Jn 14:4-6 says And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest, and how can we know the way?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

A visual return in the clouds?
Yes, BUT I don't see it in THIS passage.
---Donna66 on 10/22/09


Jeff: "...is very obvious"

Is it? If all the people on these blogs were christians, wouldn't they all think the same way? What IS obvious is that everyone has a different opinion about the subject of the resurrection. What is the truth?
---Steveng on 10/22/09


Jerry He will return to take His saints, bodies of those dead, and individuals who are alive. It is what is called the rapture by many. big event, hope I see you there.
---Morgan on 10/22/09


Donna: The return of Jesus to get His saints is described in several places in scripture - but always as a collective, rather than an individual event.

He comes visibly in the clouds:

Act 1:11 .... Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

All who love Him will see His return at once:

1Th 4:15,16 .... we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not preceed them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him,
---jerry6593 on 10/22/09


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Well I am concerned by the ignorance concerning this subject, Paul writing to the church at Thessalonica.Wants them to not be uninformed about this subject.1 Thess 4 verse 16 to 18.It is very obvious that there is a snatching up of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ prior to the tribulation. This is now the coming to save Israel as at that time he comes to the Mt of olives. This like in John 14 v 1 to 3 is not about Israel but about the church. Please readers understand that the promises that God made to Israel have no applaction to the church and when we as a church are looking for Him to return to this earth we will looking for the Anti Chrsit to appear first and then we know that the Lord will return 7 years later. From Jeff
---Jeff on 10/21/09


to say that we "ALL" go to heaven is an absolute outrage and a disgusting LIE!!! Rev 14:3 says a small group will be bought or redeemed from the earth and regarding these "spiritual" jews Rev 5:9 says they are from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation thus indicating they are not physical Jews. Rev 5:10 states they will be kings over who???? why, THE EARTH. indicating to us that there will be inhabiters of the earth.(Ps 37:11, 29, Mt 5:5) Rev 20:6 poses the question...They will rule over whom? none other than the inhabitants of the earth!!!
---brent on 10/21/09


Josef: "At the end of His millennial reign, the wicked are judged,..."

The WICKED are not judged.

There are two resurrections: one at the second coming of Jesus where the dead in Christ shall rise first and the living shall be caught up with them.

The second resurrection is at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ where all the other dead shall rise and be judged from the Book of Life according to their works - some to everlasting hell and some to everlating life.

Blessed are those who rise at the first resurrection.
---Steveng on 10/21/09


jerry 6593--
As I asked before, how do you know that John 14: 2-3 refers to the RAPTURE... and not the DEATH of every Christian? Is Jesus always "seen" by human eyes when He acts?


Please don't just dismiss my question.
---Donna66 on 10/21/09


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Jerry, their spirits are with God already, the reason Jesus says He will return is to receive the bodies of those saints that died and to take the living saints with Him. This passage refers to the Rapture of the saints at the end of the age when Christ returns. The features in this description do not describe Christ coming to earth with His saints to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11-15), but taking believers from earth to live in heaven Since no judgment on the unsaved is described here, this is not the event of His return in glory and power to destroy the wicked (Matt. 13:36-43, 47-50), rather this describes His coming to gather His own who are alive and raise the bodies of those who have died to take them all to heaven.
---MarkV. on 10/21/09


Sharon: Sorry, but the logic doesn't fit. The words "I go [to my Father's house] to prepare" and "I will come back to get you and take you there" make no sense whatever if earth is the place He is preparing for us, and the place to which we must "go!"
---jerry6593 on 10/20/09


jerry6593, GREAT QUESTION, and I am really glad someone could see something here that not many really think about.

Jesus here is talking to the CHURCH, His BODY. The Church, His BODY is who is raptured, and we are seated with Christ IN HEAVENLY PLACES In Christ.

So many don't uderstand the HIGHER calling of the Church.
---kathr4453 on 10/20/09


Jerry6593/
//That would mean that He has returned billions of times, and would contradict the scripture that "every eye shall see Him."//

Yes, but ONLY IF this scripture refers to the RAPTURE. My question was, does it? Where in the context does it indicate the rapture? Is this not an individual promise?

Jhn 14:1-4 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
---Donna66 on 10/20/09


Sharon: Sorry, but the logic doesn't fit. The words "I go [to my Father's house] to prepare" and "I will come back to get you and take you there" make no sense whatever if earth is the place He is preparing for us, and the place to which we must "go!"
---jerry6593 on 10/20/09


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this simply mean when we die in Christ, we die with the assurance that we are saved from hell. when he returns we will rise again. this is why Jesus says I go away to prepare a place for you so that where I am ye may be also.(meaning when he establishes his kingdom on earth we will be in his kingdom.
---sharon on 10/19/09


Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
---Samuel on 10/19/09


I know of no place in scripture where it is written that Jesus returns to "take" us anywhere. He returns to earth to establish His physical reign, thus establishing Heaven here on earth in the form of His government, for "Heaven" defined tangibly is wherever He in His fullness tangibly resides. At the end of His millennial reign, the wicked are judged, the earth is cleansed, and His bride, the new Jerusalem, comes down to us to be clothed with the righteous of the saints, and we will dwell in the house-as the restful eternal abode of the family-of the LORD forever.
---Josef on 10/19/09


Could He be referring to the believer's death and not the Rapture?
---Donna66 on 10/17/09

That would mean that He has returned billions of times, and would contradict the scripture that "every eye shall see Him." The ONLY rapture in scripture is at the second coming, and I haven't seen it yet.
---jerry6593 on 10/18/09


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I've wondered about this scripture myself.
Could He be referring to the believer's death and not the Rapture?
---Donna66 on 10/17/09


Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also.

If the dead are actually alive as spirits and go to heaven immediately at death, then logically, why would Jesus need to return to take them to heaven if they are already there?
---jerry6593 on 10/17/09


If you are refering to the rapture, God says that NO one will know the day or hour, NOT even the Son of Man (Jesus), ONLY God knows the day and hour. This is why we need to always be ready, because it could happen today (two seconds from now), or twenty years from now. We just don't know.
---Leslie on 10/15/09


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