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The Council Of Trent

The Council of Trent said,
"If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy [grace], which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence [faith] alone that justifies us, let him be anathema [cursed]". In your opinion was the counsel correct?

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 ---mima on 10/17/09
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Ruben, your mistaken. I am sure your indoctrination into the RCC is well known. And it bothers you when someone says anything against their teachings. But what you should be more worried about is, who is Lord of your life? I know that was what worried me when I was an RCC.
The institutional Church is not the body of Christ. The institutional Church is filled with sheep and goats. And there was and still is many goats in your Church. Molestors are some of them. Those who changed the Word of God are the others. Only those who are truely saved are part of the body of Christ. They are the one's who are born of the Spirit, spiritually baptized into one Body. And Christ is the Head of that body. It is not a physical baptism, but a spiritual one.
---MarkV. on 11/3/09


"Obviously our catholic friends view the institutionalized church as the real body of christ." (Lee)

Oddly enough, Christ viewed the Church as "visible" as well. "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. (Mathew 5:14)
And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? (Mark 4:21).Also, Matthew 18:15-19.

And you know little of Saint Augustine the Blessed writtings (no surprise there). He also believe the Church was visible. Want proof?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/3/09


Cluny, 10/31: Romans 8:5-8, 13, James 3, Jude 1:18-19.
I read your blog of 10/17, and you misrepresented the Christian position on grace through faith, or the confidence in Jesus alone for salvation. The Roman Catholic position was (and is) to add works to their definition of what they believe is needed for (potential) salvation. And that is what they were affirming. There are doctrines of the faith that true Christians believe in, and there are various doctrines that dont concern the essentials of the faith that we agree to disagree on, such as a rapture. But Believers study Gods word with the confidence that He will instruct us. John 16:13-15, Romans 8:14, 1Corinthians 2:5-16, 1John 2:20, 27.
---Glenn on 11/3/09


"Your arguments give evidence of who runs your life. He is not Lord of your life"-

No, Christ is my Lord and God. He gave us the Church, with spiritual teachers, to guide us. The Church is the pillar of Truth as Saint Paul taught.

How can I follow Christ, and not the Church he started? He is the Head. How could the Gentiles know about Christ without first going to the Church (i.e. the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors and Bishops, etc)? I am member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church that Christ started in 33AD.

Mark V, you speak against the RCC traditions, but you too follow extra biblical traditions and call it "Truth". Why attack Rome's extra biblical traditions?

In IC.XC.,
---ignatius on 11/3/09


One of the purposes of the council was to answer questions put to them. By not answering some of them, they were saying that particular doctrine was to continue as is. A major disagreement was in Mariology, protestants not believing: that she was the mother of God (Theotokos) and Gods creatures, coredemptrix and mediatrix of all grace, immaculately conceived, intercessor, to be especially venerated, and in her bodily assumption. Christians believe that she was born with a sin nature, that she sinned, and therefore required a Savior. Also, that she did die. We do not believe that her life, in any way, is needed to secure salvation which is only available by receiving Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior, and through his expiatory sacrifice.
---Glenn on 11/3/09




\\However, we Christians believe as did St. Augustine that the body of Christ is that entity composed of all true believers in Christ in whom His Spirit indwelts.\\

St. Augustine also insisted on being in Communion with the Pope, as the sign of being a true believer.

**Frankly, if the institutionalized church were the bride of Christ, we can certainly say that she is really an ugly looking b*t*h.**

As the figure of the Church says in Song of Solomon, "I am black but lovely, O Daughters of Jerusalem. Look not upon me with disdain because I am disfigured".
---Cluny on 11/2/09


Part 2:

||They can have what we regard as vomit.||

And Jesus said what is esteemed a high thing by men is an ABOMINATION to God.

I'd rather you regard me as vomit than that Christ do so.

In any case, it's not me that you're insulting. It's Christ's Bride the Orthodox Church you're calling vomit.
---Cluny on 11/2/09


Obviously our catholic friends view the institutionalized church as the real body of christ. However, we Christians believe as did St. Augustine that the body of Christ is that entity composed of all true believers in Christ in whom His Spirit indwelts.


Frankly, if the institutionalized church were the bride of Christ, we can certainly say that she is really an ugly looking b*t*h.

They can have what we regard as vomit.
---Lee1538 on 11/2/09


. You will defend your church before you defend Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/2/09


You separate the head from the Church, in fact you cut-off the head. Where in scripture does Jesus separates himself from the bride?

"For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body "(eph 5:23)

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence."(Col 1:18)
---Ruben on 11/2/09


\\
Of course not, however, the system of government was that of elders & deacons, much the same as the early church. The episcopal form of government that the Eastern Orthodox & Roman Catholic came much later when there was little or no distinction between the State and the church.\\

You've got it backwards.

Calvin's Geneva blended church and civil government.

However, the bishops were the only dignataries in a city who were elected by the people.

The presyberal model is a tradition and precept of men.

The epicopal model is the divinely given structure.
---Cluny on 11/2/09




Ignatius, you made my point with your answer. See how you put it in order? Your institutional church first and then justify why you do. Just exactly what I said.
Your arguments give evidence of who runs your life. He is not Lord of your life, your church is. That is why I said all along that the RCC and those similar to her, have replaced Christ in their believes with their traditions. Mary, saints, popes, are placed before Christ. Oh, they give Christ some credit, lets not forget Him, but He is second class in your lives. You will defend your church before you defend Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/2/09


This is the kind of argument that drives ordinary believers (and non-believers) nuts!

//You'd be surprised how many pop-evangelicals...know NOTHING beyond what they hear from their pulpits. Any objective information that conflicts with what they are told simply is ignored.//

Nobody is surprised. But are you saying
Orthodox believers are never like this?
Don't you realize this is a common human failure evident in all churches?

One or two bloggers addressed the intersting question that was posed...the rest have ruduced the discussion to an argument amounting to MY CHURCH is BETTER than YOUR CHURCH.
---Donna66 on 11/1/09


" That means you turn your life over to your visible church then to the infallible word of God." (Mark V)

I turn my life over to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church started by Jesus Christ, preserved by the Holy Apostles and the Fathers, i.e., Eastern Orthodoxy. What? You think the infallible word of God is limited to the written accounts (Scriptures)(cf. 2 Thes 2:15)?

"The supreme authority rests with the Bible, not with the visible Church"

Yes, that is your extra-biblical tradition. We have, before, established that your beliefs does not come from the word of God. Mark V, you follow extra biblical traditions too.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 11/1/09


//You don't think this "church as a whole" was your Presbyterian church, do you?

Of course not, however, the system of government was that of elders & deacons, much the same as the early church. The episcopal form of government that the Eastern Orthodox & Roman Catholic came much later when there was little or no distinction between the State and the church.

Your view that such doctrines as the trinity, nature of Christ, etc. was present with the early church shows us that you know little of either theology or church history.
---Lee1538 on 11/1/09


\\You really think that what the Apostles taught is what you teach today?\\

No, I don't think it.

I know it.

\\ The Bible came from the collective consensus of the church as a whole, \\

You don't think this "church as a whole" was your Presbyterian church, do you?

It wasn't even around then.

The only one that was was the Orthodox Church.
---Cluny on 11/1/09


Cluny - //We simply transmit the faith as we have received it from the Apostles.

And that is the basic problem with your Apostolic succession theory. You really think that what the Apostles taught is what you teach today? That doctrines did not evolve with the teachings of the church as a whole?

//And where do you think you got the Bible you appeal to to start with?

It was not from the Eastern Orthodox churches nor the Roman Catholic - both make the same claim that they authoried the Bible. The Bible came from the collective consensus of the church as a whole, not from some denomination that claims to be the chosen ones.



---Lee1538 on 11/1/09


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\\Wow, the question was specific, and most of you do anything but answer it. "In your opinion was the counsel correct?" .....
---Glenn on 10/31/09\\

Obviously, Glenn, you've not read the works of the Council of Trent, which actually said very little about the Theotokos.

And don't you think that YOUR interpretation of scripture is the right one, and all others heretical? If you don't, why do you bother believing it? Two opposites cannot be both true.

In any case, the question in the original post was limited to one particular issue, which I answered early on in the thread. Did you read it?
---Cluny on 10/31/09


"Presbyterian which is a very far cry from what we see in the Eastern Orthodox denominations." (Lee)

I never said the Presbyterian sect is like the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is very far from Ancient Christianity!

"While the basis for Presbyterism is in the Scripture being the ultimate authority, the authority in the Eastern & Roman Catholic churches lies with the visible church hierarchy. The membership at large, has little or no voice in either the doctrinal viewpoints or the operations of the church."

Like Cluny said, we not going to change anything. We don't want to. We simply transmit the Faith as received by the Holy Apostles and the Fathers. That's is OUR voice.

In IC.XC..,
---Ignatius on 11/1/09


"....you know... nothing about denominations" (lee)

What am I ignorant of? It is the fact that the Presbyterian sect share many opinions with other sects that arose after the 16th century. This doesn't include the Eastern Orthodox Church. We been here since 33AD!

".....that makes them the haven of truth which the gates of hell cannot prevail against. " (lee)

Yes it does or Jesus is a liar. By the way, our Apostolic Succession can be historically traced. Many unbiased Historians will tell you that.

"we recognize that it is the Scripture that is the ULTIMATE authority"

Yes, that is your "extra biblical" tradition. See Lee....you follow traditions!

In IC.XC.,
---ignatius on 11/1/09


Wow, the question was specific, and most of you do anything but answer it. "In your opinion was the counsel correct?" No it wasn't! Problems with the council: Tradition is co-authoritative with the Bible, only the Roman Catholic interpretation of scripture is correct (other interpretations being heretical), justification is by both faith and works, indulgences, purgatory, and the near apotheosistic veneration of the Virgin Mary.
---Glenn on 10/31/09


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\\That truly shows us that you know practically nothing about denominations, particularly the Presbyterian which is a very far cry from what we see in the Eastern Orthodox denominations.

While the basis for Presbyterism is in the Scripture being the ultimate authority, the authority in the Eastern & Roman Catholic churches lies with the visible church hierarchy. The membership at large, has little or no voice in either the doctrinal viewpoints or the operations of the church.\\

When you're not going to change any teachings, who has to have a voice?

We simply transmit the faith as we have received it from the Apostles.

And where do you think you got the Bible you appeal to to start with?
---Cluny on 10/31/09


//No more than the Presbyterian Churches makes the same claims as do other post-16th century sects.

That truly shows us that you know practically nothing about denominations, particularly the Presbyterian which is a very far cry from what we see in the Eastern Orthodox denominations.

While the basis for Presbyterism is in the Scripture being the ultimate authority, the authority in the Eastern & Roman Catholic churches lies with the visible church hierarchy. The membership at large, has little or no voice in either the doctrinal viewpoints or the operations of the church.
---lee1538 on 10/31/09


//I suppose your answer to my question would be that you get your teachings from your church.

And that is the theory of their belief in Apostolic succession. They think that just because their church was established by one of the Apostles (there is really no way we can research such history), that makes them the haven of truth which the gates of hell cannot prevail against.

But in the more biblical oriented denominations, we recognize that it is the Scripture that is the ULTIMATE authority, not some dude setting in some cathedral wearing his ecclesiastic roles and proclaiming himself to be the voice of God.

Ignatius, hope that this clarifies what need to be stated.
---Lee1538 on 10/31/09


Ignatius 2 continue: I suppose your answer to my question would be that you get your teachings from your church. That means you turn your life over to your visible church then to the infallible word of God. The visible church is established on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, therefore nothing can be more absurd than the fiction, that the power of judging Scripture is in the visible church, and that on her authority it certainty depends. When the visible church receives the word of God, and gives it the stamp of her authority, she does not make that authentic which was otherwise doubtful or controvered, but, acknowledging it as the truth of God.
---MarkV. on 10/31/09


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Ignatius, I don't believe Lee is saying that other churches are infallible. His arguement is that yours is not infallible and neither is the RCC. That so long as man are in charge they make a lot of errors. For all come short of the glory of God. But for one to say that their is the only infallible church is false. All people sin. In the case of the RCC which was the biggest. They used their own powers to keep everyone else blind to the Truth. The supreme authority rests with the Bible, not with the visible Church, with God, not with man. The question is, How does Jesus exercise His Lordship over your life? If Jesus is your Lord, then that means He exercises authority over you. How do you know how He wants you to live if not from the Bible?
---MarkV. on 10/31/09


"we can all see that the Orthodox church makes much the same claims as that of the Roman Church"(Lee)

No more than the Presbyterian Churches makes the same claims as do other post-16th century sects.

"They truly believe that the Lord commissioned them to led all the other churches but totally ignore the fact that He did not ever promise immunity from doctrinal error"

Yes, he did. The Gates of Hades shall prevail against the Church said Jesus (Matt 16:18). Sorry Lee, I won't follow your Presbyterians Churches beliefs, practices, and interpretations of Holy Scriptures, that only arose after the 16th century.

So you admit that your Presbyterian sect have doctrinal errors? How many?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/30/09


\\
They truly believe that the Lord commissioned them to led all the other churches but totally ignore the fact that He did not ever promise immunity from doctrinal error either in practice or theory.\\

Then the gates of Hell did prevail against the Church after all, and Jesus was a liar.

This is the alternative.

Of course, how do you know that YOUR church is free of doctrinal error?
---Cluny on 10/30/09


yes, Ignatius, we can all see that the Orthodox church makes much the same claims as that of the Roman Church.

They truly believe that the Lord commissioned them to led all the other churches but totally ignore the fact that He did not ever promise immunity from doctrinal error either in practice or theory.

As a result, they really are without any good argument that they have been the chosen ones of God.

The Lord leads His church through His people- that that are born spiritually in Him, not by some power hungry hierarchical elite that seeks to serve themselves.
---lee1538 on 10/30/09


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"...They hop from one denomination to another.....In fact, it may be questionable if they really know the Bible or even its Author." (lee)

I don't need to hop. I found the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church started by our Lord in 33AD, in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

"And such is those that would join denominations that are heavily burdened with all kinds of rituals like unto the ancient catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy."

Nope. For us Orthodox Christians, nothing is "heavily burden". In reality though, nearly all Protestant denomination has rituals that they have incorporated in their traditions, more so than others. Yes, that included your precious Presbyterian tradition.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/30/09


Ignatius//That is your opinion. However, other genuine Christians from the Presbyterian sect has decided to join the Ancient Apostolic Churches of the East, in essence, Eastern Orthodoxy.

Some view religion as a simple game that one plays. They hop from one denomination to another but in reality the depth of their convictions is very shallow. In fact, it may be questionable if they really know the Bible or even its Author.

And such is those that would join denominations that are heavily burdened with all kinds of rituals like unto the ancient catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy.

Anyway that is my cup of 'holy water' on this subject.
---Lee1538 on 10/29/09


//Well lee, since you was a former Episcopalian, before you became a Presbyterian, and who knows what else you were before, I guess your story was one that was not centered on Christ, but on denominations.

When I became a Christian I was basically without a denomination so had to explore the different denominations before I came to the conclusion that everything must focus on Christ, not on some denomination.

However, my search led me to that conclusion that I could study the Bible, have much my own convictions (beyond the basics of the faith) and still be considered a member in good standing and that was in the Presbyterian church.
---Lee1538 on 10/28/09


Mima, the council was wrong. In fact the council was formed to fight each area that the Reformers believed in. If that council had it origin from God, and man in the council had God's intended purpose in mind, they sure didn't know anything. Each area of faith they wanted to go through to fight each area the Reformers were teaching about the Truth. If the Council already had the Truth why did they have to redo the Truth again? You are talking about many upon many man involve looking out for the RCC teachings, not for God's Word.
---MarkV. on 10/28/09


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"Ignatius- in this day and age, it has been very common for many to switch from one denomination to another. But such is the story with those who are centered not on Christ but on denominations." (lee)

Well lee, since you was a former Episcopalian, before you became a Presbyterian, and who knows what else you were before, I guess your story was one that was not centered on Christ, but on denominations.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/09


larry -**Why even consider the council when the definition of faith is readily available in scripture,duh? Very strange postulate.

Good question but one has to address these issues on the grounds that the inquirer is more familiar with. Correct?

Ho, ho, ho, my religion is better than yours says the stupid to the intelligent.
---Lee1538 on 10/27/09


"such is the story with those who are centered not on Christ but on denominations." (Lee)

True, however, when one switch from a post 16th century denomination to the Original Church founded by Christ, preserve by the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the God-Bearing Fathers, one is certainty centered on Christ, especially if after the conversion, one grows deeper in Christ.

"Frankly Schaffer was more of a religious philosophy [...] I have read some of his works and considered them more of a waste of time"

That is your opinion. However, other genuine Christians from the Presbyterian sect has decided to join the Ancient Apostolic Churches of the East, in essence, Eastern Orthodoxy.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/09


Ignatius - in this day and age, it has been very common for many to switch from one denomination to another. But such is the story with those who are centered not on Christ but on denominations. The door are swinging both ways.

Frankly Schaffer was more of a religious philosophy than a Spirit led Christian. I have read some of his works and considered them more of a waste of time than anything else.
---lee on 10/27/09


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Why even consider the council when the definition of faith is readily available in scripture,duh? Very strange postulate.
---larry on 10/27/09


"But what happens to the poor Spirit filled Christians discovers that his church is not really the church the Bible portrays?" (Lee)

The will do want Franky Schaeffer, a former devoted Reformed Presbyterian, did: Leave the Reformed Churches and convert to Eastern Orthodoxy. His story is available via mp3 online.

Other poor Spirit filled Presbyterians and other Protestants (i.e., Baptist, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc) have made the same decision. There are several books available outlining there conversion and why they left Protestantism in favor for Eastern Orthodoxy.

Although it good that you left the Episcopalian church, you took a step downward by converting to Presbyterianism.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/27/09


"Very good....the word of God is making some headway into those denominations that have preached tradition "

Actually, Holy Scriptures is part of Holy Tradition. In fact, the word of God was present in the Church long before any NT book was written, and the word of God was present long before any OT was written. Tradition came first. That you have 27 books in the NT is tradition.

"But what happens to the poor Spirit filled Christians discovers that his church is not really the church the Bible portrays?"

They will leave there Church. That is why over the centuries many Presbyterians and other Protestants have converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, the Original Church. I suggest you do the same.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/26/09


\\Very good to see that the word of God is making some headway into those denominations that have preached tradition and obedience to their hierarchy for centuries\\

And just where do you think the Bible came from to start with, lee?

How much do you ACTUALLY KNOW (not what you THINK you know) about what has gotten preached in Orthodox Churches through the centuries?
---Cluny on 10/26/09


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Ruben - **Lee you don't get it, do you? One is way too many to begin with!

While very true, it is those denominations that have a rigid hierarchy often protects those that are guilty. The laity have little or no voice in their church.

The Roman Church for instance, has traditionally transferred problem priests to other parishes or sent them up to the Jemez Mtn facility here in New Mexico to be cured by prayer.

---lee on 10/24/09

Lee the non-Catholic christian Churches did the same thing, for instance a baptist pastor was not turn in but ran out, and he ended up at a Presbyterian church! Guess what he did there!
---Ruben on 10/26/09


"While it is a system of government by elected elders, yours is more a dictatorial type of system that is seldom responsive to the laity." (Lee)

Shows how little you know about Eastern Orthodoxy. I suggest all do not take notes from Lee. As my former teacher in High School told me once "Never study under the direction of a ignorant person. You too will become ignorant and naive".

The Laity has a responsibility in the Eastern Orthodox Churches. For instance, in order for a Council to be called "Ecumenical", the whole Church must agree, not just the Bishops.

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/26/09


Ignatius//In fact, last week, my Priest's sermon was about the need of Orthodox Christians to study Scriptures.

Very good to see that the word of God is making some headway into those denominations that have preached tradition and obedience to their hierarchy for centuries.

But what happens to the poor Spirit filled Christians discovers that his church is not really the church the Bible portrays?
---lee on 10/25/09


This quote is absolutely what the brother of Jesus, James stated. Paul said repeatedly do not be deceived when he warned against sinful lifestyles, you will have no share in the Kingdom living in immorality. John wrote do not be deceived if someone lives in habitual sin they are of their father the devil. Jesus said you are of your father the devil to the religious leaders as he rebuked them for their unrepentant nature. Peter said ,Paul taught exactly what all the apostles taught but those who are unstable twist his words to their own damnation. Paul said if anyone teaches another gospel let him be anathema.
---Leona on 10/26/09


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Lee,

"Presbyterians have a solid biblical based theology"

Others will disagree.

"and we encourage members to read and study the Bible in as much as possible."

And so does Eastern Orthodox Bishops, Priests, Monks, etc. In fact, last week, my Priest's sermon was about the need of Orthodox Christians to study Scriptures. He discussed how great the Holy Father Saint John Chyrsostom encouraged Christians of his day to study Scriptures (to protect against falsehood) and his answers to common "excuses" (i.e., I am poor, don't have time, Scriptures are for the Bishops/Priests, etc).

After his lesson, I started Studying Holy Scriptures more. Go figure!

In IC.XC
---Ignatius on 10/25/09


Cluny -Since I was an Episcopalian before I became an Orthodox, I'm in a pretty good position to know how these churches work and the voice and responsibility for laity in them.

I am a former Episcopalian, their choir director as well as one of their vestryman - back in the days before they ordained women and gays. So I can say I truly know something about how their church worked.

Most of us would prefer a more democratic organization with more of a voice in how our church is run and with more checks & balances against those that would usurp powers over the laity.

While you did the right thing in leaving such an organization, it would be a step upward for you to find a good Presbyterian church.
---lee on 10/25/09


Ignat//And a Presbyterian can follow what the good old pastor [s] ("Elder[s]") in the puplit preaches without questions too. Lee, are you one of those? What about the Presbyterian ruling body?

Presbyterians have a solid biblical based theology and we encourage members to read and study the Bible in as much as possible. While it is a system of government by elected elders, yours is more a dictatorial type of system that is seldom responsive to the laity.
---lee on 10/24/09


Ruben - **Lee you don't get it, do you? One is way too many to begin with!

While very true, it is those denominations that have a rigid hierarchy often protects those that are guilty. The laity have little or no voice in their church.

The Roman Church for instance, has traditionally transferred problem priests to other parishes or sent them up to the Jemez Mtn facility here in New Mexico to be cured by prayer.

The founder of that facility often labels these priests snakes and recommended they be confined to some facility someplace out in the middle of the Pacific ocean. The Diocese of Santa Fe even considered filing for bankruptcy.

But once a priest always a priest? Right?
---lee on 10/24/09


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"However, sooner if not later, such a follower would find a foot on their neck as well as a hand on their wallet." (Lee)

And a Presbyterian can follow what the good old pastor [s] ("Elder[s]") in the puplit preaches without questions too. Lee, are you one of those? What about the Presbyterian ruling body?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 10/24/09


\\You list Anglican/Episcopalian, however those that come under that umbrella are simply another form of Catholicism liken to the Roman or Eastern Orthodox, with its formalized hierarchy permitting little or no voice from the laity. \\

Since you are demonstrating you know nothing about how either Orthodoxy or Anglicanism works, why are you talking about them?

Since I was an Episcopalian before I became an Orthodox, I'm in a pretty good position to know how these churches work and the voice and responsibility for laity in them.

Have you ever actually READ the rules of these Churches to see how the laity participate?
---Cluny on 10/23/09


The Anglican church in Canada has had to dole out millions in lawsuits due to mistreatment of its Native American population. Take them out of the data and the non-Catholic statistics look even better.
---lee on 10/22/09


Lee you don't get it, do you? One is way too many to begin with! If you need to keep a sport score because it makes you feel better, well have at it....
---Ruben on 10/23/09


//I don't know about you but if you add all of these cases it should by pass far more, if you are in the we did less then them!

I notice that you cannot provide any dollar figure of lawsuits involving sexual indiscretion of non-catholic groups.

You list Anglican/Episcopalian, however those that come under that umbrella are simply another form of Catholicism liken to the Roman or Eastern Orthodox, with its formalized hierarchy permitting little or no voice from the laity.

The Anglican church in Canada has had to dole out millions in lawsuits due to mistreatment of its Native American population. Take them out of the data and the non-Catholic statistics look even better.
---lee on 10/22/09


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\\However, sooner if not later, such a follower would find a foot on their neck as well as a hand on their wallet.


---lee on 10/22/09\\

Which statement shows how much you know about the subject.

Is there any real difference between an infallible pope and an infallible lee?

You'd be surprised how many pop-evangelicals I know who know NOTHING beyond what they hear from their pulpits. Any objective information that conflicts with what they are told simply is ignored.
---Cluny on 10/22/09


We can easily see that in Roman Catholicism, an institution that has paid out over $1 billion in lawsuits during the past decade - far more than you find in non-catholic religions.
---lee on 10/22/09


I don't know about you but if you add all of these cases it should by pass far more, if you are in the we did less then them!
ALL Protestant denominations - 838 Ministers

147 Baptist Ministers

251 "Bible" Church Ministers (fundamentalist/evangelical)

140 Anglican/Episcopalian Ministers

38 Lutheran Ministers

46 Methodist Ministers

19 Presbyterian Ministers

197 various Church Ministers
---Ruben on 10/22/09


Cluny -//And as we all know, Protestant clergy, especially pop-evangelical ones, keep it in their pants all the time. They NEVER commit adultery or fornication or have children out of wedlock.Right?

I will agree that the institutionalized church is in general a corrupt institution.

However, the more formal the structure of those denominations that views themselves as an authoritative body above the general church population and has permitted little or no voice in its operations, are the ones that have the most problems with sexual failures.

We can easily see that in Roman Catholicism, an institution that has paid out over $1 billion in lawsuits during the past decade - far more than you find in non-catholic religions.
---lee on 10/22/09


//I forgot to mention the way you are using "magisterium" is NOT the way the Roman Church uses the term.

Perhaps so but I used the dictionary -

magisterium n, teaching authority of Roman Catholic Church: in the Roman Catholic tradition, ...

Yes, I realize that the Eastern Church did not progress downward as much as the Roman Church, probably due to lack of power curtailed by Moslem invasions.

it is still true if one really wants an authoritative religion in which you are made a simple follower not needing to think about anything, either catholic religion would suffice.

However, sooner if not later, such a follower would find a foot on their neck as well as a hand on their wallet.


---lee on 10/22/09


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\\I believe they refer to themselves as the magisterium which is composed of the pope and his leading cardinals.\\

I forgot to mention that the way you are using "magisterium" is NOT the way the Roman Catholic Church uses the term. You might want to look up unfamiliar words before you use them in the future.

You also asked about an equivalent Orthodox body.

Well, when you're not going to change anything, nobody has to be infallible. We get it right the first time.
---Cluny on 10/22/09


Why, apparently Peter deemed it neccessary to spruce up a bare bone faith:
2 Peter 1:5-9: "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, And to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience godliness,
And to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."
---Nana on 10/21/09


\\ Cluny//Can you tell us the name of this "current ruling body"?

I believe they refer to themselves as the magisterium which is composed of the pope and his leading cardinals.\\

You merely "believe"?

Or are you admitting you don't really KNOW whereof you speak?

What you are saying actually boils down to is that the POPE is not infallible, but this nameless "current ruling body" is where infallibility lies.

Do you see the corner you have painted yourself into?
---Cluny on 10/22/09


mima, is this quote saying anyone who believes one is justified by faith alone is accursed? If that is what is being said, the answer is wrong.

We are Justified by Faith alone. Justification is a legal term and legal action by God who says NOT GUILTY.

It's GOD who Justifies. It's His divine sovereign act to do so.
---kathr4453 on 10/21/09


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\\My wife was a school teacher in the Philippines and she had 3 students in her classes that were fathered by none other than the Father. Her brother became a priest but instead of following in their footsteps, simply married his lover, migrated to the US and raised his family.\\

And as we all know, Protestant clergy, especially pop-evangelical ones, keep it in their pants all the time. They NEVER commit adultery or fornication or have children out of wedlock.

Right?
---Cluny on 10/21/09


Cluny//Can you tell us the name of this "current ruling body"?

I believe they refer to themselves as the magisterium which is composed of the pope and his leading cardinals.

Do they have a similar structure in the Eastern Orthodox church.
---lee on 10/21/09


\\Very true, but it is the current ruling body that will make any pronouncement as to which statement by whatever pope made infallible pronouncements that are binding on the followers of Roman Catholicism.\\

Can you tell us the name of this "current ruling body"?
---Cluny on 10/21/09


//Are you aware that one of the things the Council of Trent was called to do was to eliminate clerical concubinage?

Apparently that objective was never met since it did not in the least discourage clerical concubinage. In fact, we still see it among the Roman clergy today, especially in third world countries.

My wife was a school teacher in the Philippines and she had 3 students in her classes that were fathered by none other than the Father. Her brother became a priest but instead of following in their footsteps, simply married his lover, migrated to the US and raised his family.

---lee on 10/21/09


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\\And yes, I would have to refer to my notes to name the popes, but I rather doubt you will find any names for the various mistresses as such were never kept in any records.\\

Are you aware that one of the things the Council of Trent was called to do was to eliminate clerical concubinage?

And at least one of the popes of this council did NOT have a mistress?

Did your notes not tell you this information, or did you suppress it because it did not fit into your model:?
---Cluny on 10/21/09


Cluny //It's also a dead issue, because there is no generally agreed list of just which statements are in fact infalible.

Very true, but it is the current ruling body that will make any pronouncement as to which statement by whatever pope made infallible pronouncements that are binding on the followers of Roman Catholicism.

And yes, I would have to refer to my notes to name the popes, but I rather doubt you will find any names for the various mistresses as such were never kept in any records.

---lee on 10/20/09


\\ The Council of Trent lasted for 5 popes. All of them had their mistresses and children from them\\

I really doubt you could tell us the names of these pope without looking at your notes, lee, or the names of their mistresses.

However, papal infallibility is actually defined differently from how you are using it here. What it really says is that under certain carefully defined limits, the pope is preserved from error. As you can see, it's negative, not positive.

It's also a dead issue, because there is no generally agreed list of just which statements are in fact infalible.
---Cluny on 10/20/09


Galatians 1:8-9:
Christians are pro Christ: Matthew 7:13-14, John 10, Romans 3:28-30, 4:3-5, 5:1, 15, 11:6, Galatians 2:16, 21, 5:4, Ephesians 1:7, 2:4-9, Philippians 3:9, 2Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5-7. Any creed that does not glorify Jesus Christ, and properly lead one to a saving knowledge of him as Lord and Savior, is the religion of Antichrist, 1John 2:18, 22, 4:3, 2John 1:7.
Roman Catholic, Council of Trent: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified, or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified, and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected, let him be anathema." (14).
---Glenn on 10/19/09


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-- Tom2 :

Brother, People do sin all the time & don't even know it, but in this case I'm aware of the speculation & wrong use of scripture I used and I know my Heart was Guided to repent for it.

So, In this case I know my sin and God knows my Heart & what it was I was sharing after I repented. God's is my judge and He knows that I haven't gone back on any repented sins ! Thank You

I hope everyone else Miche, Kathr, Ralph & Larry can state the same with an honest Heart ??......and when they realize that they're bearing false witness, Openly Repent !!!
---Shawn.M.T on 10/19/09


The Council of Trent lasted for 5 popes. All of them had their mistresses and children from them. It was not considered a sin to have a mistress but only a heinous sin to be married if a priest.

However, the Roman Church would maintain that even if each of those popes were pure devils, they could not have presented anything but the truth. Recall that in Matthew 16:18 Jesus promised that the church would be immune from doctrinal sin.

Of course, there is that nasty verse of scripture that states one should know them by their fruits. (7:16)
---lee on 10/19/09


our faith in christ is a result.though acripture says God has put a measure of faith in all men,some with more,faith is alsdo built,or grows over time.understanding that without jesus we can do nothing,are nothing,but lost souls,and that it is faith in him,his sacrifice that gives salvation,and that we can never do anything to save ourselves.
---tom2 on 10/19/09


"In your opinion was the counsel correct?"
If one properly understands saving faith, No.
Luk 18:13,14>Act 13:39>Rom 3:20,24,28>Rom 4:2-5:1>Gal 2:16>Gal 3:11,24-5:4>Tts. 3:7
It is by faith in His atoning sacrifice, the cleansing power of His word, and the renewing regeneration of His Spirit, that man is saved. Rom 5:9>1Cor. 6:11
If one fails to understand that the works referred to in James 2:21,24 & 25, the only witness in scripture that equates faith plus works with or to salvation, are works of love, influence and empowered of the Father, through which faith effectively operates, Mat.25:34-40, one may answer yes to the blog question based on that witness.
By our words we will be either justified or condemned.
---josef on 10/18/09


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This is aimed particularly at a propostion by Luther--that justifying faith is the faith that believes itself to be justified.

In other words, what is here being condemned is the confidence that one is placing in his own act of faith, rather than in Jesus.

Faith in one's own faith is NOT the same thing as faith in Jesus Christ.

It's a trap the unwary fall into.
---Cluny on 10/17/09


What Council of Trent said is totally incorrect. Anathema,a curse or ban pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication,one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority, someone or something intensely disliked or loathed,denunciation of something as acursed. No Council was given authority to add to or take from the Bible. Our entire walk as Christians is based on grace by faith, Romans 3:24,25,28 Being justified freely by his Grace by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past,through the forebearence of God.-we conclude,man is justified by faith without deeds of law.
---Darlene_1 on 10/17/09


somewhat confusing,my understanding is scripture says we are justified by faith in christ,yet not of oneself lest any man should boast.
---tom2 on 10/17/09


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