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Saved By Doing Things

Are people who hear and believe the word saved or must they also be doers of God's word?

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 ---miche3754 on 10/21/09
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John lets us know the truth about OSAS

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
---Samuel on 10/27/09

Samuel, that scripture is talking to the SAVED, warning us that anyone who names the name of Jesus Christ and does not abide in the doctrines of Christ not only does not have Christ or the Father.

And those who do as Paul said..I have KEPT the faith...the Doctrines of Christ. Paul/Peter/John didn't second guess their salvation! Paul/Peter/John also warned against false teachers and to stay away from them, as is 2 John 1:9!

Nothing in this verse says one can lose their salvation.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/09


Justification, by faith alone in someone else =7 (Perfect) Romans 4
Sanctification, by Faith alone in someone else = 7 (Perfected forever through Christ)Hebrews 10
Glorification, by faith alone in someone else = 7 John 17 Romans 8
kathr4453

True. But John lets us know the truth about OSAS

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
---Samuel on 10/27/09


Mark V.~ You're going to be surprised, but my favorite preacher in this dark day is a Calvinist (he's not a hard core Calvinist, and he barely talks about it, but yet he tends to side with it.) His name is Paul Washer, and I praise God he placed that man in this wicked world. Anne...

Anne, I know who Paul Washer, and I also KNOW Paul and what he preaches...he preaches THE CROSS.

And Anne and Linda, he does not preach that we can raise the dead, or muster up enough faith for someone's limbs to grow back. He also believes the WRATH of God is coming.
---kathr4453 on 10/27/09


Part#2 please print,

However Paul is confused in this area:

Paul wrongly understands repentance to be a process. He says, "the evidence that you have truly repented and believed unto salvation is that you will continue repenting" . Continue repenting? Obviously, Paul understands repentance to mean pursuing holiness, amending one's ways and doing better. This is NOT repentance! These things are the RESULTS of genuine repentance. A changed life is the FRUIT of true repentance, and not repentance itself. Paul is actually teaching works salvation without realizing it!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/09


Anne:

I just listenend to the "sermon" you mentioned. I agree with it 100% and I teach exactly what he teaches. However what you have said in these blogs does not agree with what he has said in this sermon. Here are a few statements he made that contradict losing your salvation:

"the doctrine of eternal security"

"We are not here to tell you that you will lose your salvation"

"This is not backsliding, you never knew Him"

"If a work of God does not continue, it was never a work of God"

"We are kept by the power of God"

"Sinless perfection is not taught by the Bible"

"Walking in darkness is a style of life"
---Mark_Eaton on 10/27/09




Miche3754,I also ask God for forgiveness any time I feel I even might have done something He doesn't like. God gave humankind a prayer to pray and it includes "give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us". "This Day",the one we are in at any given moment therefore we are also praying for forgiveness of tresspasses/sins for"this day". Thats God not me. This too is God,Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood,to declare his righteousness for the remission of the sins that are past,through the forebearence of God."Sins that are past",not our repent onetime forever. God Bless
---Darlene_1 on 10/27/09


Anne, if that preacher you talked about is a Calvinist and not a hyper Calvinist, then he is just ok. No one has it all perfect Anne. Not a one since all man are sinful. They all fail in someway. They have to put their own understanding and many times we agree 90% other times 80% and many times depending on what they are teaching 100%. I know Reformers that differ in different areas of faith. Everyone is given enough light, but not all the same light on each topic. Some are more mature then others. Others are smarter and learn faster then others. If Washer teaches Works as a condition for salvation then he is wrong completely. If He doesn't then he is ok. There is no works in our salvation, it is all of grace.
---MarkV. on 10/27/09


how can you back the its alright to sin because you are still saved when Jesus says to repent daily of any tresspass?miche3754***

Miche, you are doing the same thing here you get so angry others do to you.

I DO NOT SAY it is alright to sin.

I die daily Miche.....I am CRUCIFIED with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me.

Because it is the Holy spirit in me that mortifies the deeds of the body. I HAVE no power to do such.

Sinning and repenting is NOT what God wants. There is no power to deliver from Sin in continual repentance.

THE POWER IS being CRUCIFIED with Christ. Paul calls the Power of the Cross! It has more power than a AA Battery....IT (the CROSS) NEVER loses It's Power!
---kathr4453 on 10/27/09


Miche~ You deserve a big hug for continuing so steadfast. I am so proud of you. You are a lady who wants to make sure that people daily test their faith to make sure they have the evidence of living in the faith so they can be 100% confident of their salvation. This is what the Bible tells us to do...this is part of what it means to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. How we NEED more strong men and women like you in this day who encourages us to grow in the Lord. God bless you sister.
---Anne on 10/27/09


The only thing we MUST do is believe on HIM.
(faith) This is how we are saved and stay saved.
By grace through faith....
For sin shall have no power over you.
This is the power of the Cross.
---duane on 10/27/09




Mark V.~ You're going to be surprised, but my favorite preacher in this dark day is a Calvinist (he's not a hard core Calvinist, and he barely talks about it, but yet he tends to side with it.) His name is Paul Washer, and I praise God he placed that man in this wicked world.

Please listen to his sermon "The sermon that angered many." What Paul Washer is saying in this sermon is exactly my views because he stands completely on the word of God. I see things 99% in accordance with Paul, and if anyone could be my spiritual twin brother, I would say he is that person.

I have a slight disagreement with him in one area, but if you listen to him, you will understand how I see God because I think 99% exactly like him.
---Anne on 10/27/09


SuzieH: Good summary! Note also that many believe that humans are innately immortal - that they automatically keep living after "physical" death. Compare this belief to the Bible statements that only God is immortal, and that WE "put on" immortality at Christ's return. Why on earth would we "put on" something that we already inherently possess.
---jerry6593 on 10/27/09


---Curious.one on 10/23/09

Not at all, I do not believe in universalism.

I know the definition of hell. The Bible says that the wicked will not be granted eternal life. Only the righteous will be given eternal life. The wicked will burn in the lake of fire...but they will have an end.

How can a soul be destroyed if they live forever? Not possible. God said he will destroy the wicked and they will be no more. They will be ashes under the souls of our feet. We will search for them, but they will not be.

They will have spiritual and physical death.
I can give you the scriptures if you are interested.
---SuzieH on 10/27/09


Miche:

I do not know what OSAS says, nor do I care. What I do care about is God's word and His direction of me.

You are right, it is a daily walk. We are called to be obedient to Jesus and His commandments and that includes all the things you, Anne, and Nana list.

What it does not include is "do whatever you want and still be saved". I have never advocated that nor do I think it would be prudent for anyone to live that way.

I agree with Kathr, what God reserves for that is discipline and chastisment. What that entails, I have no real idea because frankly, I do not want to find out.

Will the disobediant lose their salvation? Only God really knows. We will argue about it until Jesus returns.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/26/09


Miche, you've been given enough truth, you should understand who saves who and how they are kept when they are drawn by God. I gave you the word of God and you egnore it.
You either believe the Truth or you don't, and you don't, but don't insist we think it is ok to sin, I have never mentioned it was ok, Mark E, Shawn T. Donna, Tommy, Mima, Duane, and others have never said its ok to sin. I have said obedience is not an option. You and Anne are the ones who say we think we can sin all we want. You don't even believe in Jesus words concerning the will of God, "This is the will of Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"
Words of Jesus.
---MarkV. on 10/26/09


-- Miche :

"OSAS tells people they can do what ever they want and still be saved --miche on 10/26/09"

Sister, This is an assumption that you've made about OSAS, just like some assume that Get Saved Stay Saved(GSSS) is telling people that they can redeem Salvation through the works of their own merits.

These assumptions are made on the bases of either a lack of Hearing or a lack of the Wisdom of God's Knowledgeable Word to Understand what is being shared.

BTW ~ There's only two types of "Wills" : God's Will and that which is not God's Will. No matter what people wish to call it, Devil's Work/Freewill/Evil of Sin, it's still not God's Will and a Changed Heart in Christ, is a Repenting Heart !!
---Shawn.M.T on 10/26/09


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Judgenot, first, you don't have to change your name to ask me a question or disagree with me. You cannot hide from God.
Second, as a person of faith, I can judge someone's salvation by their actions against God, and the Bible. The Bible judges them as wolves in sheeps clothing, with a righteous judgment, the same that I have judge. I don't have to know their hearts for I am not saving them. God does all the saving. On the Word of God along that is who they are.
As humans we do judge unrighteously many times. Just as you have judge what I said using another name. I know if you had spoken for me you would have used the name you use all the time, but you wanted to judge me using another name so no one could judge you.
---MarkV. on 10/26/09


We are to live day by day in Christ because none is promised tomorrow. Be ever careful and watchful, because when its least expected, He will come and will he find you as the lazy manager or the diligent one. If you think you don't have to repent, go ahead and believe that. You think you are safe, go ahead and believe that for not everyone who says lord lord will enter the kingdom.

We are only safe when we have ALL of what Christ tells us to have. It isn't one piece here or one piece there. OSAS tells people they can do what ever they want and still be saved. And all of you know it. What I have said stands firm On GOD"S word. You can't disobey God and think you are getting in.
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


And Kath you can say today you are but what about tomorrow? Since you you are not promised tomorrow, you can't say it.
And I am still wondering how you can believe in freewill BUT not losing salvation?
You can't believe in OSAS AND freewill.
And how can you back the its alright to sin because you are still saved when Jesus says to repent daily of any tresspass?
You are starting to not make sense to me.
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


Miche, 1. None of us believe we are a finished product as you call it. We are under sanctification for the rest of our physical lives.
2. been conformed to the image and will be when we are glorified.
3. We will disobey many times. The Spirit convicts us, and Jesus intercedes in behalf of those whom the Father has given Him. Listen to what the will of God is,
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day"
---MarkV. on 10/26/09


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Do you NOW still think God is finished with you yet that your disobedeince won't cause him to cast you in the lake of fire?
Do not be deceived!
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


Miche, was the man who died next to Jesus FINISED...without spot or wrinkle? Did he have time to be conformed to His death?

Miche, if I were to die today, no matter what IN CHRIST I am COMPLETE...finished, perfect IN HIM...PERIOD!!!

Miche, remember the laborers who came in at the LAST hour but still got the Exact same pay as the ones who worked 11 hours?

There will be people saved 1 minute before the return of Christ....are they less saved than you?

I'm SAVED Miche. I too can say IT'S FINISHED !
---kathr4453 on 10/26/09


Miche:

There are two views of sanctification and three times in salvation.

There is my view of sanctification, how I see myself against God's commandments. It is progressive and will never be completed until I go to meet the Lord. There is God's view of sanctification, how He sees me. It is already completed, a done deal from His perspective.

The three times of salvation are past, present, and future. The past is redemption, when I am actually bought from the kingdom of darkness. The present is my walk of progressive sanctification, and the future is my glorification, the perfecting of this old body.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/26/09


Yep, hebrews says that Mark E.
Jesus says this
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever. Amen!

It is a daily walk, Mark E. And we are changed daily from Glory to Glory In Christ.
But we still have to ask God for forgiveness when we trespass and forgive those who tresspass against us too. DAILY!
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


Mima ... and markV made a very clear and distinct statement uttering the utmost judgment and condemnation of others. Do you also totally agree with that.
---judgnot on 10/26/09


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---MarkV has made a very clear and distinct statement. About one person judging another person and I totally agree with what he said.
---mima on 10/26/09


So, You believe you are already the finished product?
What about the 2nd coming?
And are you already without blemish or spot?
Does the word say that you are already conformed to his image or BEING conformed?
Does God say he has finished his work in you or that HE WILL FINISH?

Do you NOW still think God is finished with you yet that your disobedeince won't cause him to cast you in the lake of fire?
Do not be deceived!
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


According to the Bible, there are yet two steps to go, "sanctification" (the Christian walk) and "glorification" (when we "put on immortality" at the 2nd coming of Christ).
---jerry6593 on 10/25/09


Jerry, I agree, however even sanctification is GOD'S work in us. And with that I'm not ever capable of Glorifying myself either.

So here it is.

Justification, by faith alone in someone else =7 (Perfect) Romans 4
Sanctification, by Faith alone in someone else = 7 (Perfected forever through Christ)Hebrews 10
Glorification, by faith alone in someone else = 7 John 17 Romans 8

All else...if it comes of self is 666!

Don't fall Short!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/26/09


Miche:

I am not tossed at all. I know exactly what I believe and why.

Your question is what happens in God's view to us when we sin? If we are truly a believer, the answer is nothing!

Either He has forgiven all your sins or not. Hebrews tell us Jesus paid one price for the sins of all time. Not only yesterday and today, but tomorrow sins as well. Therefore, God does not see me any other way except sanctified. The final product.

Are we not "seated with Christ in heavenly places"? We can be this by God seeing us as sanctified.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/26/09


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Mark E,
I didn't say we could not be obedient!
Of course brother I understand that when in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. I asked those questions to get answers from your point of view on it if you believe we are also to remain faithful to Christ.
So if you would please answer them. Then I will be able to see where you are coming from. Right now you seem to be tossed too and fro. I am not sure where you stand on if we can avoid sin or not, if you believe sin seperates us from God, should we repent if we fall short, etc.
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


'We can make all the judgments we want by what we see of another person, but only God knows His children' (MarkV on this blog)

'A few claim they love God, but behind His back they speak against His Word. Those kind are back stabbers. Imposters pretending to be children of God when in reality they are children of wrath' (MarkV on Origins of the Bible blog)
---judgnot on 10/26/09


Miche:

Another statement of mine that you struggled with was that we are not able to be obedient to the commandments.

It is the Spirit in us who is obedient to the commandments. I, Mark, am not able without the Spirit to keep the commandments, and I am not able to be sanctified with Him. This is evident by these two Scriptures:

Eze 36:37 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

Phil 1:6 "and being confident of this very thing that He who has begun a good work in you will continue it until the day of Christ"

He is the faithful one, He is the one who does the work. Not I.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/26/09


Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:


Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This is the answer. The words are not magic. If you love your wife you do not cheat on her.
---samuel on 10/26/09


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To both Mark's,
Yes we have been given a new heart by God after receiving his salvation.
But I have a question for you.
Are we not still in sinful flesh?
If we are not careful to let God lead, can't we still succumb to that flesh and sin?
What does God say if this happens?
Are we still clean and white as snow?
Aren't we supposed to hear Christ's voice when we do something wrong?
When Christ says, "My child, you should not have done, said or thought that", what do you do? Ignore it or repent and say "I am sorry Lord!".
---miche3754 on 10/26/09


Mark E. again you are right. Your explanation of faith and works. This works talked about are what others see in you. Not what God sees in you. As far as God is concern, you have been justified. Made right with Him. People might not see your works and say, he has no works so he is not saved, but that is their opinion. Not God's. God has a work for all believers, and some do it by been mothers teaching their children about God. Fathers been leaders for their families in respect to how God wants him to be leader of.
When God saves someone, He never makes mistakes. There is many who are not saved, but only God knows who they are. We can make all the judgments we want by what we see of another person, but only God knows His children.
---MarkV. on 10/26/09


Mark E, 2 continue: people here want others to believe that somehow God saves someone, justifies him, and then leaves him to himself to do what he can on his own. And the more works he does the more he is secured of his salvation. When God begins a work in an individual, God not only changes his heart, but his disposition. Puts the love of Christ in his heart, endwells him with the Holy Spirit, and gives him all the spiritual gifts necessary for him to finish his course, with Jesus sustaining him. What God start's He always finishes it.
If God didn't start anything from the beginning then don't expect anything for that individual but to fall completely. Because genuine believers never fall completely. God never loses one of His children.
---MarkV. on 10/26/09


miche3754: (it's Michelle, isn't it?) I think that the OSAS crowd almosts expects God to accept their own assessment of their fitness for heaven. I thought it was God who does the judging.

While I agree that a heartfelt acceptance of Jesus as personal saviour and baptism by immersion is a good start, it is just the first step to salvation - "justification." According to the Bible, there are yet two steps to go, "sanctification" (the Christian walk) and "glorification" (when we "put on immortality" at the 2nd coming of Christ).
---jerry6593 on 10/25/09


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Mark E.
How many times have I said exactly what you said in your last post only to get slammed by the OSAS crowd as doing works for salvation?
Plenty! and when I tell you that we are to follow Christ, you still say I am trying to do works for salvation.
I have quoted James I don't know how many times just to be told "you are telling people works for salvation".
I know people who only believe are not saved. BUT OSAS sometimes conveys this message. You cant live in continuos sin (not be doers) and be saved. Its not possible. If there is no new heart given By Christ, (showing new actions and new life)then you aren't saved. See Shawn's post.
---miche3754 on 10/24/09


Our works will not earn our way into heaven, but they can keep us out.
---jerry6593 on 10/24/09


"That why faith without works is dead, its dead to all those around you, except you the believer."
Mark_Eaton
...
2 Peter 1:8-9: "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."
Seems to me that the "barren" and "unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ", who also for such lack is declared "blind", cannot possibly be saved. For certain, he is not saved from his sins, would he be spared at the dispensation of the life to come? I rather doubt it.
---Nana on 10/23/09


Miche:

What I do not understand is how you can think "hearers of the word" are saved?

Go back and read my explanation of belief. In it you can interchange belief with the word faith.

True belief/faith contains action being taken on behalf of the thing you have heard and believed. Or put another way, trusting your belief enough to "put your money where your mouth is"

This is the truth being taught in James, that without the works or without external evidence, how can I know that you really are saved? That why faith without works is dead, its dead to all those around you, except you the believer. You may be saved, but your faith cannot be seen by those around you and it does not do them any good.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/09


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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

"Should we sin just because we're under the Blood?"

Brethren, God Forbid ! How can we Live any longer in sin, If we're dead to sin ??

If our claim of Christ is True then we Believe that as He Died unto sin once, likewise we ourselves are Dead unto sin, Living in Him serving God.

When our 'Old Man' is crucified with Christ, our body of sin is eternally destroyed b/c we no longer continue to serve sin. Our rebirth in Christ makes us Free from the imputing Law of sin & death.

God's Children are buried with Christ by Baptism & have been planted in the likeness of His Death & shall also RISE in the Harvest of His Resurrection(OSAS).

Thanx Miche & God Bless
---Shawn.M.T on 10/23/09


God is the owner of the human race. Originally, we were all "in His likeness", but as we grew up in this world, we learned bad habits and strayed. Some have read the gospel and returned to God. The ones who haven't are still God's offspring and remain the 'brethren of humanity' that might someday come to know God personally.

The brethren that are IN CHRIST shall NOT be given special treatment by us.

James 2:9
"if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors".

If you show partiality as part of keeping the faith, you revert to the old law that was in effect before Christ was crucified and are convicted by that law (no longer being judged under the law of liberty).
---more_excellent_way on 10/23/09


Repent, Be baptized in Jesus' name and Receive the Holy Ghost
---Sissy3396 on 10/23/09


Mark E.
Just to be clear.....
NO ONE HAS SAID THAT!!!! Please go back and read the blog again!!
Boy, you sure do know how to grieve your sisters and brothers in Christ dont ya!
---miche3754 on 10/23/09


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MEW,
I believe that Mark E. is not quite got enough descernment to understand what people are saying here.
Otherwise, he would not have asled me to explain why I asked the question the way I did.
Those who believe OSAS tell people all they have to do is get saved.
That is not the full truth. The must Get saved and stay saved by following Jesus commands and not their own. This is following in the footsteps of Christ and being lead BY HIS SPIRIT and not their own.
Unless we tell the fullness of God in all truth, people who get saved won't stay saved because they are misinformed!
---miche3754 on 10/23/09


Donna, my main purpose here may be so that people can feel superior to me. A am ipso facto inferior by not being an Evangelical Christian.
---Curious.one on 10/23/09


Suzie, if you don't think God will stay angry forever at the people burning in hell, you must be one of those universalists.
---Curious.one on 10/23/09


Curious.one --- LOL. I'm sure there is some truth to what you say. Some people are here mainly to stir things up, I think.
---Donna66 on 10/23/09


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All you who are using James 1:22 as proof that you MUST do the works to be saved are using it wrong.

James 1:22 is a continuation of verse 21 which starts with "therefore". The connection to the "therefore" is in verse 18 which says:

(James 1:18) "In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures"...continuing...(James 1:21) "Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves".

We put off the junk AFTER we are saved.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/09


Donna, I am here on these blogs for the same reason everyone else is here: We don't have a real life in the real world. It's a way to kill time and fend off boredom.
---Curious.one on 10/23/09


MEW:

What exactly are you saying, to NOT love the brethren in Christ?

Did you miss the "love" chapter, 1 Cor 13?

The love shown in this chapter is how you deal with the world and the brethren.

If you fulfill this chapter, you will have any problems with conceit or humility.

Are you are sounding like a clanging cymbal?
---Mark_Eaton on 10/23/09


Must be doers of God's word.
---catherine on 10/23/09


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Neither be doers of what people say (pastors, scholars, etc., God is a jealous God).

Have peaceful regard for others (even brethren that are IN Christ are only kinfolk and should be given NO special treatment), but LOVE is only for GOD.

James 2:1
"SHOW no partiality as you hold the faith".

..and love others only as much as you love yourself (and why are you showing love to yourself?,...conceited?, lack of humility?).
---more_excellent_way on 10/22/09


Curious One,

God will not always keep His anger.
And with Him there will be pleasures forever more.

Jeremiah 3:12
...for I am merciful, saith the LORD,
and I will not keep anger for ever.

Psalms 103:8-14
The LORD is merciful and gracious,
slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy.
He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever...

Psalms 16:11 (King David talking to God)
Thou wilt shew me the path of life:
in thy presence is fulness of joy,
at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

(Thou means "you" in old english)
(Thy means "your", chide means struggle/fight with)
---SuzieH on 10/22/09


If you dont believe in life after death then you dont know God
---Jaco on 10/23/09


curious one-- if you think there's no life after death and God is always mad...how come you are posting on a Christian blog? Are you looking for an argument or what?
---Donna66 on 10/22/09


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The bible will always remain useful as a reference/guide for greater understanding of God and His ways of righteousness, and as a textual source of His wise counsel, but we must remember that it cannot love us (do not personify it, God is indeed a jealous God and there must be NO competition in our heart/mind).

The bible has become an idol to many who claim Christ as savior (God is a JEALOUS God).

Whatever God has not yet explained to you when He speaks to your conscience, do not substitute "the book" for interaction with Him, WAIT on The Lord.

All wisdom and knowledge will pass away, but...
.......God is LOVE undying, return the same.
---more_excellent_way on 10/22/09


How come you's people think there's a life after death anyway? Sounds like wishful thinking to me. And also how come you want to live forever with some God that will always be angry with the people who aren't there in heaven with you? Doesn't sound like fun to me.
---Curious.one on 10/22/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Amen MarkE

To remember to keep doing God's Will, it's our Hearts that must Spiritually Hear & Believe but when it's only a person's brain that physically hears & believes, they'll follow along during devotional studies, but the moment studies stop, they're lost and are like a man walking in the dark night with another man who has a lamp, but at the crossroad they part and he must continue groping his way lost in the dark b/c the other man's lamp is no longer around !!

The Holy Ghost is the Lamp in our Hearts that teaches & keeps us in remembrance by shining the Lord's Light to Guide us through the darkness as we serve the Living God keeping Faith Alive & us from groping in dead works.
---Shawn.M.T on 10/22/09


Rod4him put it very well, very clearly!

Miche says "I get so upset when I try to convey this message and get told that Im trying to work for my salvation" I understand, because when when I say Salvation is by Grace through faith, I get 2-3 people jumping in to say "But you can't keep sinning and still be a Christian!" Of course. Isn't it a forgone conclusion?
What Christian wants to run around sinning?

Actually, I get weary of people pointing out all the sinners around them. Their sins are not my responsibility. They may be imperfect Christians like me....in which case it is the Holy Spirit's job to deal with them.
But, if they are not Christians at all, I will do my best to share the Gospel with them.
---Donna66 on 10/22/09


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Opps Angia7669 thank you for the Chapter since I didn't put it,I'll repeat,it is Romans 10:9,10. I would just like to say there is a difference in working for salvation and serving from obedience. Even though what one does for the Lord is taking action,it isn't work because in doing service for God is a pleasure and obeying God is our blessing. God looks on the motives of the heart and what something appears to be work to humans is considered by doers of the Word to be submission to God's calling and marching orders for their life. If all one does is work then no they can't find salvation from good deeds. Faith and love gives from the heart and understands,God's love and salvation can't be bought by work but obedience is received by God.
---Darlene_1 on 10/22/09


Romans 10 : 9- says that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart that god raise him from the dead shall be saved, 13- for whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved they have to hear, believe and be a doer
---angea7669 on 10/22/09


The definition of believe in the blog question needs to be clarified.

There is belief that knows flipping the light switch will turn on the lights, and then there is belief that will actually turn the switch on.

The first kind of belief is what we see when we read that even demons believe in Jesus. It is a head knowledge, without experience, without risk, without CHANGE.

The second kind of belief is what we NEED to see when we read verses related to salvation. This belief is saving belief because it involves TRUST and CHANGE. When you TRUST God and surrender your life and soul into His hands, you WILL be born again and you will be CHANGED.

After that, good works are just evidence of the CHANGE for others to see.
---Mark_Eaton on 10/22/09


Amen Rod!
We don't ask what works do we do today.
We are to first thank God for giving us another day and ask him what HE will have us do today!
I wonder how many actually do this daily?
Or if they realize they are suppose to have that kind of relationship with God?
I guess thats why I get so upset when I try to convey this message and get told that Im trying to work for my salvation when thats not the truth at all. Im asking God what he will have me do. just like if Im in my car and sitting in a long line and God says, "Let this person waiting go ahead", I do it because God knows something about that person that I don't and they may have an emergency to get to and me obeying God will help them get there faster.
---miche3754 on 10/22/09


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Well said, more excellent way.

I loved the definition of Heb. ""Therefore, we must LEAVE the elementary DOCTRINE OF CHRIST"/bible.....so that we can go on to a MATURE relationship/devotion."

I hope I am understanding a concept you are communicating, and that is that we don't worship the Bible, as the Bible is only a guide, but we worship the God of the Bible.

Concerning works, when I wake up in the morning, I don't want to ask myself, "What works must I do today?" as much as I want to wake up thanking God for salvation and asking God, "What is our relationship about today?" which results in works.
---Rod4Him on 10/22/09


The "WORD" (how God revealed Himself to humanity) became FLESH (Jesus, NOT 'TEXT') and still is not TEXT/bible, commentaries, etc..

The bible is only INTRODUCTORY for our devotion (Christianity does not understand this).

Hebrews 6:1
"Therefore, we must LEAVE the elementary DOCTRINE OF CHRIST"/bible.....so that we can go on to a MATURE relationship/devotion.

The Israelites/Hebrews only had the heavenly Father to worship, but now we have GOD IN ENTIRETY/completeness...

Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily".

We do not HEAR the bible, we READ it (in other words, we should not be doers of the bible, but be doers of what God says to each of us).
---more_excellent_way on 10/22/09


Rod,
"Must" to me means do what God tells you to do and show that you have faith in HIM and that Christ is in you.

Thats what this discussion is about.
If you have Christ or claim to have Christ and be in him, then you will do what God says first and always.
If you are not obedient to God then how can you claim to belong to him?
And the word does say be doers not just hearers of God's word.
Thats the fruit that comes from being in Christ and you are right, we can't have one without the other.
Its wrong to tell people all they have to do is claim Christ but not bear good fruit just as it is wrong to tell people to do good works and they will have Christ.
You must have Christ AND do HIS will.
---miche3754 on 10/22/09


Be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only.

I don't believe people who are saved "must" be doers of the Word, as much as they "will" be doers of the Word.

"Must" to me has the connotation that works earn salvation.

Works and salvation is like air and sky. There can't be one without the other.

This discussion is like which came first the chicken or the egg only in this case works follow faith. No faith no works, no works there is no faith.

What's the difference between a philosophical-head belief and belief that has works?
---Rod4Him on 10/22/09


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Guys, these are exactly what I believe the Bible says.
But why is it when I tell people that, certain ones say that I am teaching works for salvation?
That is why I asked the question. I have been taught that not only do we asks for forgiveness from God we also must receive Christ into our hearts and follow what he says to do. Following means to do an actions told to us by Christ.
So, I am still stumped as to why some on this site think that this is works for salvation.
---miche3754 on 10/22/09


Good question, the answer is yes! For proof we look at Luke 8:12," Those by the way side are they that hear,---- then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts,--- lest they should believe and be saved.

Hearers and believers of the word can be saved!!
Just take the devil out of the verse.
Luke 8:12," Those by the way side are they that hear, lest they should believe and be saved.
---mima on 10/22/09


Nothing can be added to the payment for the sin of mankind. We have administered "Easy believism" for decades. Then wonder why people do not live for Christ. All that is required is that Jesus is accepted the Bible way.
Paul wrote Rom 10:9-13 and also v16, "But they have not all obeyed the Gospel..." Not obedience to the law to be Saved, but obedience to the plan of Salvation as God said. Muslims and Devils accept Christ through belief but not according to the Word of God.
A person who claims Christ as Saviour and cannot get victory of sins that are besetting their testimony have problems in being obedient to the Word. Those who do not value the Word of God will not value the things of God.
---Elder on 10/22/09


As I see it, we are saved by doing things before and after salvation stemming from a predisposition to do as such brought about by the love of justice, mercy and faith from a 'good and honest heart' (Luke 8:15). To do is so important that Jesus said, "first be reconciled to thy brother" (Matthew 5:23-25). Zacchaeus had not done right, but he promised to, and it was counted to him for righteousness.
"Out of the fullness..." Why is Isaiah 1:16,17 so ignored and verse 18 so celebrated? Could it be that those who do such are against God's order of things?
---Nana on 10/21/09


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We must pay attention to each word that God speaks. The verse says "HEAR" and we should do what it says....be a DOER of what God SAYS, not a doer of TEXT, and not a BELIEVER of text.

John 10:27
"My sheep HEAR my VOICE" (as opposed to 'DOING TEXT').

Jesus did ALL of the "works" (John 6:28 and 9:3) and the only thing that we should 'DO' is REST/relax INside Jesus's body (He is our sanctuary and sabbath rest, no more sabbath DAY)...this is what TRUST is.

Jesus is our ONLY foundation and we should not attempt to establish another foundation with works/deeds, etc. (Hebrews chapter 6). That would be APOSTASY and will not be overlooked.

The bible is the introductory doctrine of Christ.
---more_excellent_way on 10/21/09


There is more to being saved than just general believing. Satan believes but he isn't saved. Romans 9,10 That if thou shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,thou shall be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness,,and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. A person who is saved wants to obey God and walk in Gods way putting under their feet,laid to rest,done away with all the old former acts which came from the fleshly mind. Instead they seek to show their love to God by living according to the message Christ preached. Living a holy life through the change brought to life through repentence,and they are new cereatures in Christ.
---Darlene_1 on 10/21/09


the doing part comes after the saving part.yes we hear the word,we accept who and what jesus dod,we believe,we repent knowing we have sinned,then we do works and bare fruit.we are saved because of what jesus did,theres nothing we can do tyo save ourselves,its a free gift from God,we must choose to believe.
---tom2 on 10/21/09


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