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Change Before Salvation

Why do people think that the minute you accept Jesus as your Saviour that you are changed immediately? Don't people know that to change your belief system has to change first?

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 ---Darkhorse on 10/23/09
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---kathr4453 on 11/13/09

Exactly. When the Lord spoke with Moses, it was the LOGOS who speaking. Moses asked, who shall I say sent me. The Logos/Lord said Tell them I AMsent you.

In the Gospels, Jesus says before Abraham was I AM. This infuriated the Jews because Jesus was saying He was God.

Jesus never said, I am the eternal son who always existed with the Father.
---Larry on 11/13/09

BIG AMEN Larry and Kath! (kath I would have pasted yours to but I didn't have enough room :)
---miche3754 on 11/13/09


And why ask Trav, who believes others besides Adam and Ever were created and the flood was not the whole world? ---kathr4453 on 11/13/09

Well...witnesses not all in yet. Am leaning this way. Science/archeology are getting closer to establishing civilization dates before scripture. Two creation accts in Genesis. Hebrew words witness. Cain married ....somebody. Pretty sure it wasn't a sister Adam gave him.
Noah, is the next new start over for fantasy crowd.
Oh, the flood did happen. Just didn't wipe all civilzations. So I'm not ashamed of searching the TOTAL truth. I would be ashamed to believe a lie. But, please....do your own searching and if you find a couple of witnesses....share em. For a change kattr.
---Trav on 11/13/09


It was the Logos/Jesus Who revealed The Father's existence when He revealed His Own existence. For that, Jesus was fiercely rejected and accused of blasphemy by the religious authorities of His day when He rightfully claimed to be the Son of God because they were not aware that God exists as The Father and The Word/Logos.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/09

Exactly. When the Lord spoke with Moses, it was the LOGOS who speaking. Moses asked, who shall I say sent me. The Logos/Lord said Tell them I AMsent you.

In the Gospels, Jesus says before Abraham was I AM. This infuriated the Jews because Jesus was saying He was God.

Jesus never said, I am the eternal son who always existed with the Father.
---Larry on 11/13/09


No Markv, I answered it and you denied it or should I say you never responded to the truth. Too busy picking on Kath, I guess.That is wrong and NOT Christ like.

God in the OT was Called Father, The great I AM.
God is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.
These 3 are ONE!(1 John 5:7-9)
AGAIN JOHN 1-1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Notice how it says was God?
But wait, you are hard headed thinking that Jesus was flesh BEFORE he became flesh.
John 1:14 says different.
Before Jesus became flesh in the NT, he was the WORD in the OT.
Brother, open your eyes. You too trav.
By the way, Jesus plainly says who he was in the OT. John 8:58
---miche3754 on 11/13/09


Again, I'm not sure what your point is: First you get saved. Then God changes your mind. Now you know, WOW, there is a God. Wow, there is a hell! You don't really change anything, my friends. God does ALL the changing.....Little by little. It's His supernatural abilities, God has them. Never discount His Blood. Because there is power in the Blood.
---catherine on 11/13/09




While I have seen dramatic deliverances from addictions at the time of some peoples salvation, I have also seen those who struggle character defects after accepting Jesus. There is no particular formula. We do know that the Bible says that our mind's are renewed and that is where change starts. In the renewal of the mind. Romans 7 shows us that we might always struggle with the "sin that dwells within me". I agree with Paul when he says "thanks be to Jesus Christ" who was perfect for us.
---jody on 11/13/09


MarkV I have no Idea what you're talking about..except one of your STUNTS twisting and saying someone said something they didn't say. It's getting OLD and boring MarkV.

The question and conversation is/was....WHO is the WORD in the OT. You said He was the eternal son, placing Him in a lower position than GOD. Sons are either Begotten or created. SO, was the eternal son in the OT begotten or created? He couldn't have been begotten in the OT so he must have been created. AND THAT is why we have so many CULTS who do not believe in the deity of Christ.

And why ask Trav, who believes others besides Adam and Ever were created and the flood was not the whole world? Yes MarkV ask Trav. Only Cults confer with one another for answers!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/13/09


Mankind's knowledge about God increased in stages through Bible History according to God's will, at times of His choosing : "And God said to Moses, "I am The Lord. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My Name The Lord I did not make Myself known to them." (Exodus 6:2-3 )

It was the Logos/Jesus Who revealed The Father's existence when He revealed His Own existence. For that, Jesus was fiercely rejected and accused of blasphemy by the religious authorities of His day when He rightfully claimed to be the Son of God because they were not aware that God exists as The Father and The Word/Logos.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/09


Trav, did you notice Kathr hasn't told us who God was in the Old Testament. I have waited for an answer. She told us who He wasn't, The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, ...... I know it will get better as we go on. I cannot wait to hear more.
---MarkV. on 11/12/09

She may be a widow and orphan..a lost sheep.

At 9:30 central time lets pray together (2 or more)for her. Only GOD can guide the individual.

Psalm 109:4
For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.
---Trav on 11/13/09


1Timothy 6:3 If ANY MAN teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
4 He is proud, knowing nothing

DoWE consent to teachings from your saviors lips?

Matthew19:16 what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17.none good but one, God: but if thou will ENTER into life, KEEP the commandments

John 15:10 IF YOU KEEP my COMMANDMENTS, ye shall abide in my love, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

John 14:15 IF YOU love me, keep my commandments.

Is there one HERE CONTRADICTING, YOUR saviors teachingS? Explain yourself.

Or are you proud, knowing nothing?
---Paul9594 on 11/12/09




Trav, did you notice Kathr hasn't told us who God was in the Old Testament. I have waited for an answer. She told us who He wasn't, The Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit, so I guess He was another Trinity we have not heard of before. Could be a whole new heresy. I thought I knew who the Godhead was.
But, in her believes it's someone else in the Old Testament. Could it be the Godhead turned into the Father Son and Holy Spirit through time? I never heard of such a thing not even from the heretics in the early church, and the early church never had to deal with the old Godhead. I know it will get better as we go on. I cannot wait to hear more.
---MarkV. on 11/12/09


The penalty of all our sin is paid. Thats why we come to God with boldness knowing that He is a keeper of His promises and He is "just" (1 John 1:9) to forgive a repentant heart because the penalty of the believer's sin has already been paid by Christ.
---JackB on 11/11/09

OK Jack, now that we have established that Justification pardons us from the penalty of SIN= DEATH, Justification does NOT deliver us from the POWER of Sin.

Justification CHANGES our POSITION before God Immediately, however it does not change the fact that sin still has power over us.

Scripture teaches we are SANCTIFIED through the BODY of Christ once and for all. Sanctification is where His Power over sin is effected in us.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/09


Thank You JackB, !

I see you're not Calvinist in the sense that one is Born Again First, or that God just picks out who he wants.

Remember the man who said...be merciful to me a sinner,and that man went away JUSTIFIED,Pronounced NOT GUILTY-Pardoned. Yes only God can Pardon. No one can Pardon themselves AKA saving themselves. And yes..sinners are very capable of knowing they are sinners before they are Born Again. The man who died next to Jesus was very aware he deserved to die but says the same thing...Remember me when you come into your kingdom...his way of saying "be merciful to me a sinner". We know the Holy Spirit wasn't given until AFTER Jesus rose from the dead....Yet this man was with Jesus that day in Paradise.
---kathr4453 on 11/12/09


Kathr4453,

Hebrews 10:12-14
"But this man, after he had offered ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God,
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED FOR EVER THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED. "

The penalty of all our sin is paid. Thats why we come to God with boldness knowing that He is a keeper of His promises and He is "just" (1 John 1:9) to forgive a repentant heart because the penalty of the believer's sin has already been paid by Christ.
---JackB on 11/11/09


Justification happens the moment you except Christ. We are adopted as sons and able to receive all the power and blessing of God that Christ received. We receive the Spirit of Christ. He is now living IN us.

When that happens a change takes place. Not overnight however. It takes time. If it didnt there would be no calls for us to live holy lives after receiving Christ.

Sin wont feel the same. It will make you miserable because youre grieving the source of your peace and love, the Holy Ghost.

To me if a man accepts Jesus and doesnt feel bad about anything he does I seriously doubt he let the truth sink into his HEART, but instead wanted to use Jesus as a get out of hell free card
---JackB on 11/11/09


YET our faith INCLUDES Romans 6..dealing with sin AFTER our salvation, and I see nowhere sin is justified.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/09

JackB, I posted this to show Nana that YES we are declared NOT GUILTY because of Christ's righteousness inputed to us= JUSTIFICATION.

Not because WE did anything whatsoevr. Christ did..We both agree.

But Nana and all others want to know about AFTER we are saved or Justified.

Nana, my answer to your question or comment is...those workers of iniquity were NEVER saved.

Our salvation includes both justification AND sanctification..two entirely different things. and NO, Pastor Jim, Christians DO NOT apply for sanctification after we are Justified, like one applies for a job.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/09


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And yes the Bible also says we receive the SPirit after we are already 'sons'
---JackB on 11/10/09

Thank you JackB, those were wonderful words.

I would like to ask you though about your understanding of Justification. Are you saying after we are saved, BECAUSE we have been Justified, it doesn't matter if we continue to sin, because all sin now is justfied under the blood?

I'm little confused? Becaue Justification is not our Born Again experience..it's our standing before God because we put our faith in His Son. YET our faith INCLUDES Romans 6..dealing with sin AFTER our salvation, and I see nowhere sin is justified.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/09


MarkV, in the OT God was never referred to as the FATHER. David never called Him Father. None of the Prophets called Him Father, even Abraham Isaac and Jacob never called Him Father. ...
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09

Kathr4453...should one apologise too...or acknowlege? Remind when it's my turn.

Isaiah 63:16
Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer, thy name is from everlasting.

Isaiah 64:8
But now, O LORD, thou art our father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jeremiah 3:4
Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?
---Trav on 11/11/09


Brother Jack, those were great answers. I know it's hard for anyone to come forward and speak on behalf of God in control of our salvation, because so many are indoctrinated with the teachings of the RCC works for salvation. And many are afraid if they speak for God everyone will come down hard on them, and so they stay away from answering. But let me say as you, I am not ashame to speak for the glory of God. Trying to make friends only happens when people agree on everything. Otherwise they are not your friends. You speak for God and all hell breaks lose. I am glad you came forward. I know there is many out there that refuse to answer this questions for that reason. Praise be to God in the highest for only He has power to change a heart.
---MarkV. on 11/11/09


JackB,
That is not what the "Word" says:
Matthew 7:23-24: "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:...".
Kath, like a Cat may lap-up what you are serving, but the fact is that there are those who work iniquity and those who do not.
---Nana on 11/10/09


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Oh and change before salvation? Utterly preposterous!

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING

Change comes AFTER you receive the Spirit of Christ which is AFTER you are adopted as a Son of God.

Galatians 4:4-6
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
---JackB on 11/10/09


Kathr, I think you misunderstood me on the (now closed) Grace blog.

I was tryin to show that all men are workers of iniquity (lawlessness) because breaking 1 law is like breaking them all. THe only way a man isnt guilty of breaking 1 single law is if the very righteousness of Christ is "imputed" to Him just like the word says.

That only comes through faith in his blood which the Bible explicidly states is what makes our peace with God. Not the good works we do AFTER being adopted as sons.

And yes the Bible also says we receive the SPirit after we are already 'sons'
---JackB on 11/10/09


So many unnecessary arguments that MarkV has caused with many here ...---kathr4453 on 11/10/09

I've yet to argue with Markv.
Is as stubborn as rest of us I've noticed. Can be good....in that not falling for everything that comes down the pike. He over analyzes context as much as I don't analyze.
I see him as a scriptural scientist sort of. He will find....and it will probably be good. You take an authoritive position....and just don't have all the hebrew/greek or context/scriptures tied. Me I'm too blunt. Just foundational. I never forget my enemies have no reason not to tell me truth about myself....from their lopsided perspective of course. ha, ha. Have a good laugh you'll feel better.
---Trav on 11/10/09


Psalm 52:2
The tongue deviseth mischiefs, like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
---Trav on 11/10/09


Absolutely Trav. I couldn't agree with you more.

So many unnecessary arguments that MarkV has caused with many here and then comes back and curses people denying he erer said what he said.

MarkV is to proud to ever admit he could be wrong..

or MarkV has a serious pathological problem and actually believes his own lies.

That comes from lying over and over so many times your seer your own conscience.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


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Kathr, as always to argue you take something again out of context. Paul was to go Macedonia with the gospel and because of that people in Asia did not receive the gospel, receive it at that time when Paul was alive. ---MarkV. on 10/30/09

MarkV, WHY do you continue to LIE and not acknowledge that Paul in fact DID GO TO ASIA!!!

Flip flopping AFTER I told you and showed you he infact did go to Asia YOU CHANGED your story.

You do this all the time here on line.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


What you try to do is twist what I say in some way to find fault. Very deceitful.
---MarkV. on 11/7/09

Appropriate call mark. Cannot figure out why... must have missed a blog somewhere between you two. Keep laying stone.

Psalm 52:2
The tongue deviseth mischiefs, like a sharp razor, working deceitfully.
Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.
Zephaniah 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies, neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
---Trav on 11/10/09


Kathr, you do have many issues. You read things not there. I also know anyone who agrees with me you go after. And when you do you just don't stop. Second, you cannot correct me when you are wrong. You have to wake up before 2:30 am to study on the subjects we talk about to be able to correct me.
In the subject of Mecedonia and Asia, I never said that God intentionally stopped Paul from going to Asia so that those in Asia would not come to Christ. What I did say was that the gospel went to Mecedonia years before then to Asia, by direction of the Holy Spirit, and that because of that, many in Asia did not hear the gospel so died in their sins.
What you try to do is twist what I say in some way to find fault. Very deceitful.
---MarkV. on 11/7/09


Because Paul wasnt the right person in the right place at the right time to begin bringing the gospel to the Roman Province of Asia at that particular time. There was nothing wrong with Paul's preaching in Asia, but it wasnt Gods timing, so he was forbidden by the Holy Spirit.

THEN They tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit didn't permit them there either,

WHY?

God wanted Paul to go to Troas and pick up a doctor named Luke. If God wouldnt have said "no" to Paul two times, we would't have a gospel and a Book of Acts written by Luke!


The reason then is NOT that God refused Asia or even Bithynia from the Gospel. God had a higher purpose.
---kathr4453 on 11/4/09


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It was wasn't until years later that Paul was permitted to start Ephesus.
---MarkV. on 11/4/09


MarkV, you did not say this here in the beginning or in other posts making the same statement.

Paul is not God who can be in all places at all times, God called him specifically to a place and time for a specific purpose. It's called obedience to God's Will for YOUR LIFE!

Just as God Called Peter to Cornelius for a specific purpose at that time, showing him Salvation was also to Gentiles!

MarkV, You will always find a way to squirm out and justify what you never said to begin with.

That's why you have lost so much credibility with so many. You'll always convince yourself you're right. Still immature!
---kathr4453 on 11/4/09


Kathr, it is not my pride at all, it is what Scripture says. In your rush to condemn what I say you condemn the Words of God. If you had only read the Bible you would have known the Truth. How can I apologize for the Truth? The Truth is the Truth.
"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in Asia." Acts 16:6. The Word of the Lord.
And since the Macedonians received the gospel at that time, they had what Asia did not have. While those in Mecedonia were coming to Christ by faith in the Word, the one's in Asia were not. It was wasn't until years later that Paul was permitted to start Ephesus.
---MarkV. on 11/4/09


I don't think MarkV believes he is wrong. That's why he won't apologize. Who apologizes when they are sure they are right?
---Donna66 on 11/3/09


That is unfortunate Donna66, since scripture in Acts 19 and Revelation 1:11 not only confirm Paul went to ASIA, but Jesus Himself addresses ASIA!! Ephesus is in Asia, as well as one of the 7 Churches Jesus addresses. Paul went to Ephesus, Phillipi etc, and other cities in ASIA!! MarkV is WRONG according to the WORD OF GOD!! MOST like to stick to the Bible rather then Calvin commentaries!

God did not exclude them from hearing based on MarkV definition of God's sovereign will to exclude them from hearing.

God Bless!
---kathr4453 on 11/4/09


You don't actually believe God means Abraham's physical seed?
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09

1.Prophets only testify too/about this seed. You want GOD to do what you THINK is proper. ha.
Clue:Ephraim mentioned 37 times Hosea.

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people, and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Hosea1:10 "Yet Israelites will be like sand on seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'
11 People of Judah and people of Israel will be reunited, they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be day of Jezreel.
Heb8:8
---Trav on 11/4/09


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I don't think MarkV believes he is wrong. That's why he won't apologize. Who apologizes when they are sure they are right?
---Donna66 on 11/3/09


Kathr ... No he won't. He will probably claim you have said the opposite of what you have actually said.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/3/09


MarkV, are you saying only Abraham's seed physical seed are given Gospel?

When Paul taught this to Galatains THEY WERE Gentiles....

You don't actually believe God means Abraham's physical seed?
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09

Markv may or may not believe it. I know it. And have scripture to prove. You've added words and meanings to scripture. Greater than the prophets...seeing you use none of their testimoney/witness.
Gal 4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To REDEEM THEM THAT WERE UNDER THE LAW, that we might receive the adoption of sons

REDEEM: To recover ownership of by paying a specified sum. To pay off (a promissory note,
---Trav on 11/3/09


Nana, it actually would be nice to see MarkV admit he was wrong and respond like a Mature Christian APOLOGIZING to me for his comments.

But we will never see that...

Now if you or someone else had posted those verses, yes, possibly a sheepish MarkV would admit he was wrong. maybe

That's one of the issues I have with MarkV. His pride has taken over so many times he knows he's wrong, but just can't admit it, rather pretending he doesn't understand people's posts, or accuse then of changing the subject, or twisting his words, or never returning to a thread when he can't do any of the listed.
---kathr4453 on 11/3/09


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"You don't actually believe God means Abraham's physical seed? Then NO Gentile would be saved...not even in Paul's time!"
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09
I am there with you kathr4453.
---Nana on 11/2/09


There also is no reason given in the Bible why it should have been Abraham's seed, and not the Egyptians or the Assyrians, who were chosen. It is all the choice of God not man.
---MarkV. on 10/30/09
MarkV, are you saying only Abraham's seed physical seed are given the Gospel?

Do you even understand what Abraham's seed means?

Abraham's SPIRITUAL SEED which is Christ can certainly be an Egyptian, or Assyrian, or anyone who receives Jesus Christ.

When Paul taught this to the Galatains THEY WERE the Gentiles.... And Paul concludes to them ALL families of the earth was the promise given Abraham.

You don't actually believe God means Abraham's physical seed? Then NO Gentile would be saved...not even in Paul's time!
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09


I'm sorry MarkV, but Pau,ps THIRD Missionary trip he went to ASIA. Ephesus is in ASIA!

Paul was alove and well and wrote Ephesians!!!


Revelation 1:11
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia, unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Acts 19: 10And this continued by the space of two years, so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Again MarkV You TWIST scripture to support a doctrine that does not exist!
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09


part 2..Please Print.

MarkV, you used a verse, not reading ALL of the Book of Acts to prove( as you have made this statement otherplaces, that God Sovereign will did not want Asia or want to save them..I guess the ground clutter??.

If I Point out your error you get very upset thinking I'm picking on you. When I see you twist scripture to push your Calvinistic doctrine to state God doesn't want certain people I HAVE TO CALL YOU ON IT! because it's a LIE.

Go ye into the WHOLE WORLD! No one is excluded from hearing the Gospel.

Please read ALL of Acts and you will not find the doctrine of Calvinism anywhere!
---kathr4453 on 11/2/09


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Kathr, as always to argue you take something again out of context. Paul was to go Macedonia with the gospel and because of that people in Asia did not receive the gospel, receive it at that time when Paul was alive. It does not mean they haven't today. Paul does not live today, it was over a two Thousand years ago. Many went to hell never hearing it. With free will and all. It was the sovereign choice of God which brought the gospel to the people in Europe and later to America, while the people of the East, and North, and South were left in darkness. There also is no reason given in the Bible why it should have been Abraham's seed, and not the Egyptians or the Assyrians, who were chosen. It is all the choice of God not man.
---MarkV. on 10/30/09


When Paul was forbidden by the Spirit to preach the Gospel in the province of Asia, and was given the vision of a man in Europe calling across the waters, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us" one section of the world was sovereignly excluded, and another section was sovereignly given, the privileges of the Gospel.MarkV***


MarkV has a peculiar idea Paul was the Only one God called to bring the Gospel to the world! He actually thinks because God chose rather to send Paul somewhere else, that NO ONE went into Asia. Paul wasn't talking about God's Sovereign will, but where God called Paul at that given moment for a reason!

How silly is that! John Mark and Barnabas parted with Paul and I believe they went to Asia!!!
---kathr4453 on 10/30/09


"Simple. He wanted Peter to remember that HE knew Peter, through and through."
---Donna66 on 10/29/09
Luke 22:61-62: "And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And Peter went out, and wept bitterly."
It remids me of when my Mom used to tell me to not do this or that because I could get hurt. Lo and behold, it happened as she had foretold many times, and she was present on certain occassion, and I still remember her look, as if to say, "I told you so". She told me to teach me to be careful.
---Nana on 10/30/09


Nana, //Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples."
Why did Jesus declare the future to Peter and the disciples? Was it to teach them that all is foreordained, or to teach them that they can be masters of their future...//

I really don't think He was trying to teach either one. I see no deep theological teaching here. I think he wanted to teach Peter (and others) that it is easy to swear loyalty, but difficult to exercise it. Simple. He wanted Peter to remember that HE knew Peter, through and through.
---Donna66 on 10/29/09


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Samuel 3, God does not change. His nature, character and attributes remain the same alway. At no time does He give over His authority to anyone. Nothing relating to the future is in anyway uncertain so far as the actualization of God's counsels are concerned. None of His decrees are left contingent either on humans or secondary causes. He is Omniscient. There is no future event which is merely a possibility, that which may or may not come to past for "Known unto God are all His works from the beginning" Acts 15:18. Whatsoever God decreed is absolutely certain, for He is without variableness,
---MarkV. on 10/29/09


Samuel, if God had turned over His will so that many could have free will it would change the whole Bible. If man has free will, that means he is completely free. God has no rights over him or his decisions. Which also means man would determine their own destiny, and the destiny of the future. Nothing would be sure. You would have to throw out the whole of the Old Testament from the fall to the story of Pharaoah. If he had free will, he sure could not stop God from using him. If all the man who died crossing the red sea had free will, their will could not stop God from killing them. How about the women and children who died at the hands of God? They had free will you say, they still died. It wasn't their will to die.
---MarkV. on 10/29/09


Samuel 2 continue: If man had free will, none of the prophicies would have come true. Any decision by man would change the outcome. Every person God called to use through history came because of the will of God. Paul didn't come by his free will, he was killing Christians. When Paul was forbidden by the Spirit to preach the Gospel in the province of Asia, and was given the vision of a man in Europe calling across the waters, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us" one section of the world was sovereignly excluded, and another section was sovereignly given, the privileges of the Gospel. The Bible nowhere indicates that God gives man free will. If He did, God would have to change His plan every time man change his decision.
---MarkV. on 10/29/09


Matthew 26:34-35: "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples."
Why did Jesus declare the future to Peter and the disciples? Was it to teach them that all is foreordained, or to teach them that they can be masters of their future if they but will truly know themselves, convert themselves, and thus change an otherwise unavoidable and undesirable future?
---Nana on 10/29/09


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Rod4Him, your right for correcting me. I have no problems with someone who uses Scripture correctly. It's easy to read through your concerns. The problem here is you don't know who is your brother or sister. Because, I don't know who is saved and who isn't. I have to listen to what they say. Wolves are not my brothers or sisters. Two, I don't mind anyone attacking my character, its only their opinion of me, It's when they attack the character of God to attack me that I begin to know who they are. Maybe you don't mind and you can handle it by saying nothing. I am not you and do say something. I speak for the character, nature and attributes of God. And answer when I feel I have to. I stand on my convictions. For I cannot go against conscience.
---MarkV. on 10/29/09


Since GOD is Omnipotent He can choose to limit His power and allow us Free Will. This make us responsible for what we do and not GOD.
---Samuel on 10/29/09


Galations 6:1, "Brethern, even if a man is caught in any trepass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he decieves himself."

Mark V. I hesitate to say this lest you start attacking me.

We are to abide in Christ and He in us.

Be careful less your passions for what you believe hinders the love of the brethern.
---Rod4Him on 10/28/09


In response to yuor tirade:

Most of what you say about my belief is total fabrication by you. That's OK by me, your lies can't harm my relationship with God. They may yours though.

You do appear to confirm that God as you perceive Him is a dictator, directing all the evil things that happen in the world.

So it's not your choice to lie about what I say, because you have no choice. God made you lie. God made you break His 9th Commandment. Where do we go from there?
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/09


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Mark ... a few more questions ... perhaps on this occasion, you will answer me?

1. God hates sin? Agree or not?

2. God punishes sin? Agree or not?

3. God does not deliberately make man sinful so that He can punish him? Agree, or not?

4. Why do you condemn me for believing exactly the same thing as you beleive?
I previously said I don't beleive God makes man for the purpose of punishing him, and you berated me for saying that. Then you said the same thing using exactly the same words.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/09


Alan 2 continue: "You alone are the Lord, You have made Heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And you preserve them all" He is in control and what you tell me is that He stops been in control of man, who is sinful, so they can determine not only the outcome of the future but the future of what happens during their control. For the purpose of giving them free will. If God was not in control, everything, would cease to axist. He even controls the drops of rain that fall and where they fall. Or you rather have Him have a little control, not not over man. What else can you be saying?
Stop complaining and explain yourself.
---MarkV. on 10/28/09


Mark ... What is it that I say about God that you object to?

That He is Omnipotent?
That He can do whatever He wants to do?

When you say thoise things, it is OK, but when I say them, you condemn me. Why is that?

I think it is because I happen to believe them them both, whereas you do not.

You may say that God is Omnopitent, but you don't believe that ... because you say He cannot do anything He wants. You say He cannot allow FreeWill.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/09


Mark ... it is YOU who make up the thihgs you claim I say about God.

You claim I said God cannot interfere with man.

I have never said that, or anything remotely like it.

I have told you so, yet you repeat the lie.

You appear to adopt quite a relaxed attitude towards the Ten Commandments, at least to that that written in Exodus 20.16 (Unless I am not a neighbour so you think it doesn't count)
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/28/09


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Alan, if you had studied about who God is, you would not be saying what you say about God. You think you can make comments as you do and be ok saying them, well, you do have a choice but your choice has its roots not in God but in your failure to understand who He is, not because you are not able, but because you refuse to learn about Him and continue to confuse His Word.
Scripture teaches that all things outside of God owe their continued existence with all their properties and powers to the will of God. "He upholds all things by the word of His power" Heb. 1:3 "He is before all things and in Him all things consist" Col. 1:17.
"In Him we live, and move and have our being" Acts 17:28.
---MarkV. on 10/28/09


Mark ... Read the whole of my post ... I withdrew those things before you even read them, because they were untrue! I wrote that to make you realise that you should not make up untrue things about me (or others) and repeat them, even when they are proved to be untrue.

I have said many times that I do not hold the view that "God cannot interfere with man", so why repeat it?

God can do whatever He want, ... He has the power to turn you into a squash racket. But does He? No. If I used the argument you turn on me, that means He is not Omnipotent, beause He does not use that power.

Don't you see that God, in allowing us FreeWill, does not lose His Omnipotence? He is exercising it.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/27/09


Alan 2 continue: You hold on the belief, as others, that God cannot interfer with man. That man has free will to chose or not to chose Christ while in a fallen state, unbelievers with faith in Christ while lost, then you are suggesting what I said most of you are saying. What else can you be saying? It is a system that has its roots in the RCC. A salvation of works. There is no salvation through the law. You break one, you break them all. No one can be found worthy to keep the whole law. But Christ kept the whole law, sinless in our behalf.
Man is fallen and needs God. Dead to the things of God and anything good in him is not even his to glory, for everything good comes from above. (Scripture). Nothing he has is worthy of salvation.
---MarkV. on 10/27/09


Alan, even if I love you, I still answer you the only way I know how. That is who I am. You said, I take glory in my own great sinfulness,
I am far from sinless Alan. I need Christ in my life everyday to speak on my behalf.
You say,
I take glory for myself in the fact that I was chosen by God to be saved.
I don't take glory, I am thankful God had mercy on me a sinner. Which is what you should be doing if you are saved, and not doing if you are not.
You say,
I glory in the special things about myself that led God to choose me and not some other less worthy sinner.
Alan there was nothing good in me that led God to have mercy on me. There is no other less worthy sinner, all who are fallen are corrupt.
---MarkV. on 10/27/09


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Before I was saved I didn't have a belief system. I was a lost sinner and associated with others who enjoyed the same sinful things. One morning I awoke and cried out to God, turned on the television and ended up with TBN on which I had never watched before. A preacher was giving an invitation and pointed his finger at me and said the same things that I was feeling. I got down on my knees and accepted Jesus. I know I changed from a sinner into a child of God. My belief system changed that day. It's been 25 years and I'm still trying to conform to the image of my Lord Jesus Christ. Praise God!
---Bob on 10/26/09


How God deals with people is HIS business.
I personally was changed in a second of time. How I once believed I remembered no more. I had a new mind in a second of time. Things I believed in I had no rememberance of. HE just took the old away and made me new.
---duane on 10/26/09


your belief system ahd changed if you truly are born again,you are born of the spirit.This belief in jesus is the only one that matters,from there when you truly follow him,daily you are changed,by as he said taking up your cross,or crucifying your flesh daily.what has any belief system to do with obeying God?following jesus?jesus says be in the world,but not of the world.Gods word promises to change you moment by moment,but you must allow his spirit to do it.
---tom2 on 10/25/09


Mark, You glory in several things.

You glory first in you own great sinfulness

You take glory for yourself in the fact that YOU are chosen by God to be saved.

You glory in the special things about yourself that led God to choose you and not some other less worthy sinner.

Mark, I know those statements are not true, so I withdraw them even before you protest.

There is one thing though in which you seem to glory ... making up inventions about what I and others have said.
---alan8566_of_uk on 10/25/09


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Darkhorse, your question is so true. I just finished answering Alan on this point. Again here is what people are suggesting, now, I put it this way because it is what they suggest.
"That fallen man, (without God changing his heart first,) decides to exercise his free will, (remember God cannot interfere they say) this is all the work of fallen man. He decides out of the goodness of his own corrupt heart to display his mercy and choose Christ, and God, happy you chose Him now gives you salvation and so changes your heart (rebirth) and begans to change you."
What else can they be saying? They don't believe the Spirit changes their hearts and brings them to live first. They do all those good deeds for God while lost.
---MarkV. on 10/24/09


Darkhorse #2, And get a load on this, they go even further when they suggest,
" They exercise faith while lost. Suggesting that fallen man has faith, so I suppose they are believers already while lost, since unbelievers are those without faith."
They go so far as to take glory for their own faith. They feel that the other way, God having mercy on whom He has mercy is just not fair. That He is mean and ungodly that way. They rather take man's right, over God's right. How can they even pray for God to change their sons or daughters? If He cannot interfer with man's free will. How can they live a life depended upon God?
---MarkV. on 10/24/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, The Path of the Just is as a Shining Light, Shining more & more unto that Perfect Day, while the way of the wicked is as darkness, not knowing what they stumble at which defiles them which is all that proceeds out of their mouth from their evil heart.

The Just will attend to God's Drawing Spirit, having Ears which Hear & God's Word doesn't depart from their Eyes b/c they're in the midst of their Hearts where they are Life unto them & Health to the flesh of their body.

It's our Heart that's immediately changed upon accepting Jesus as our Lord & Savior, not the body, but where the Heart is Drawn the body shall soon follow b/c from the abundance of the Heart our mouth speaks.
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/24/09


\\If Jesus Christ would even clean up an muslim Pres, he will no longer be a muslim & No longer be a President. \\

Do you mean Barack Obama? He was never a Muslim.

In any case, God's got all eternity to change the heart that is willing to let him.

That's the meaning of the Greek and Latin words for "repent": METANOIETE and POENITENTIAM AGITE. It's a dyanamic, active, process, not a once-for-all static condition.

Consider this, those of you who have been Chrisians for 10 and more years. Are your beliefs exactly the same as 10 years ago?

If so, then you're saying you haven't learned anything in 10 years.
---Cluny on 10/23/09


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The minute you accept Jesus as your Savior, your position before God and your eternal destination change...instantly.
It's not a change noticed by human eyes.

For you to UNDERSTAND these changes, may take some time. To change your habits and manner of living, may take CONSIDERABLE time.

Unfortunately, these changes are the only ones most most people notice.
---Donna66 on 10/23/09


what you seem to be missing is this. If you believe and except jesus,chances are great that your belief system is in place,has been, I mean you already believe that God is,that he exists,that jesus was and is his son.what other belief system do you need?I would say it,s more a matter of stronger faith,and living daily in obidience once you accept jesus ,rather than a changing belief system.
---tom2 on 10/23/09


The moment that you are saved, you are changed. However, the Person of the Holy Spirit has His work cut out for Him. The Bible says, "I will change you little by little"....You may still find yourself in and out of the Spirit, perhaps, you will notice this war going on. God pulling you in one direction, Satan pulling you in another direction. Remember,also, Satan has had you for a long time. Longer for some than for others depending on your age Jesus found you. The moment you are saved you are a believer. But, you will grow. OUCH!
---catherine on 10/23/09


Yes, change is a process & Not instantly or overnight. Even staying saved is a process, time your Truly born-again till when your number is called. If Jesus Christ would even clean up an muslim Pres, he will no longer be a muslim & No longer be a President. Because politics are corrupted. A true born again person will Not be in politics.
---Lawrence on 10/23/09


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Because they don't understand that man is three parts and that being born again takes place in the spirit of man. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Now, we have this part of us called the soul. It consists of mainly the mind, will, and emotions. The intellect, imagination, and personality are included. We are to be transformed by the renewing of the mind. Once we are born again and life is imparted to the spirit of man, the work of Christ in His death and resurrection becomes the truth that is, at that point, unseen in many cases. From then on the Holy Spirit takes those things that are His and shows them to us to renew our minds and give us understanding.
---Linda on 10/23/09


When you put all that together, it is not so hard to be longsuffering toward the new believer who is still struggling with some things. The difference is that he is no longer comfortable doing those things because of the heart change and will seek the heart and face of God for the outward expression of the inward "new creation man". The preaching of the true gospel reveals the righteousness of God until we clearly see that what is true in Him is true in us. As we believe, that outworks into the soul realm and into the body. It is the work of God, that we believe on Him and on Him whom He has sent.
---Linda on 10/23/09


true acceptance and belief in jesus ,whether you realize it the the moment you accept him,aka being born again,you are changed,you may not realize it at that exact moment,and when you do accept him your belief system is changed,because there is only one belief that matters at all,and thats belief in the lord,everything else will fail.
---tom2 on 10/23/09


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