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Church That Teaches Grace

2 Peter 3:18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. If grace isn't taught, how can one grow in it? Does anyone know a pastor and/or church that teaches grace only?

Moderator - Yes, too many of them. Sometimes to the point of ignoring sin in their congregations lifes.

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 ---Bob on 10/30/09
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The Son did not come to be, He was always the Son from all eternity. He was declared the Son to people at His resurrection. "God chose us in Him, (His Son Christ) before the foundation of the world."Eph. 1:4. Jesus the incarnate was born a son to Mary and Joseph. But was the Son of God from eternity.
9
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


Joseph and Mary??? Or Mary and the Holy Spirit?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

He was declared TO BE. the Son of God,! Also refer to David's seed in that same verse in context!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


From what I have read, we all agree that we can do nothing without Christ. We can't even wake up in the morning. All on here believe that CHRIST is our all in all.
So, why are we fighting? Just because one says it one way and the other says it the other way, we are all saying the same thing.
Works is by Christ in us and it is HIM that is doing the work because we are dead and Christ is alive!
Please stop bickering over the choice of words. We should all be touching and agreeing that HE IS ALL AND ALL.
This is just an observation and I am not taking sides. I just pray that we can all open our eyes to understand that we all believe this to be truth!
---miche3754 on 11/9/09


Kathr, the other blog close I will answer here about the Son. You said,
"begotten means. No one was begotten in the OT. If Jesus was the eternal son, how did a son of god come into being."

The Son did not come to be, He was always the Son from all eternity. He was declared the Son to people at His resurrection. "God chose us in Him, (His Son Christ) before the foundation of the world."Eph. 1:4. Jesus the incarnate was born a son to Mary and Joseph. But was the Son of God from eternity.
Prov 30:4 declares, "Who has bounded the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know? His name is Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


And as others have said, Mark was correct in saying that people were astonished with his works.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/8/09

Alan, again, my question was in reference to MarkV's reply to Pastor Jim's comparing Simon the S saying many will say, haven't we done wonderful works in Your Name.

MarkV brings up Simon the S in comparison.

My question, and I should have stated clearer...how could Simon the S ever stand before God with any works of the devil, before he was saved ever claim he did anything wonderful in God's name.

The comparision was a odd one.

My real prompting to MarkV was....since when are we saved by WORKS anyway, as those in Matt 7:21-23 seems to believe. But he didn't get it.

---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


Please post:

You know Pastor Jim, you are teaching SELF EFFORT, THAT is me myself and I centered:

When we are crucified with Christ, the me myself and I DIE...and Christ in us is who does the works. Galatians 2:20 & 21

Also:
Ephesians 3:20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
ALL GLORY GOES TO GOD!!!

Now MarkV KNOWS this or use to believe it...however he seems to be led astray now.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09




we Christians dont work to be justified. Branches dont work, they abide in the vine so they can bear good fruit.
What are the works we must do? Believe on HIM who HE has sent.(faith works) God working through you.
---duane on 11/8/09

duane, you and kathr are correct. Abide in me and I in you, as ye can do nothing of yourselves unless you abide in me. It is His life that is being our-worked in us. The fruit is the fruit of His Spirit as we abide and surrender and yield to do His will. This is our faith in Him.

We become partakers of His divine nature by Faith in Him, not works we do.

Pastor Jim, you are leaving out the very center of our Christian walk. Can you also conform yourself to His Image?

---Larry on 11/9/09


Here is a good Litmus test on
Sanctification (Works after Grace).

If God suddenly changed his mind and announced that from now on you will be saved by the Law. Would you be ready and excited with joy, or would you know you are a dead man. David said I enjoy your precepts and commandments. The righteous of the past have said the same. It is a question to ask/evaluate yourself. It will tell you if indeed you are truly a Christian or a Bourgeois Carnal imitation that likes God as long as he serves you an gives you."a Lovely Spouse," a lovely home" a lovely (fill in the blank), but if you have to work for him then it is ADIOS!
---Pastor_Jim on 11/8/09


It is true, we Christians dont work to be justified. Branches dont work, they abide in the vine so they can bear good fruit.
What are the works we must do? Believe on HIM who HE has sent.(faith works) God working through you. Offer your bodies to God in faith and love for HIS use, so you can bear good fruit.

We need the Spirit to understand theses things.
---duane on 11/8/09


Kathr .... This is what you asked Mark (I have copied and pasted) "what verse in scripture describes Simon the sorcerer as astonishing the people with his works and love for the people? Did you just make that up?"

You did not just ask "where does it say Simon astonished the people with his works"

And Mark had NOT claimed that people were astonished with Simon's love of the people.

And as others have said, Mark was correct in saying that people were astonished with his works.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/8/09


Kathr, as I stated before (perhaps too harshly) you are ME centered and Christ serves you. He follows you.

Examine your post...
"We don't WORK for God,
His POWER WORKS THROUGH US!"

If you do not work for God, then who do you work for? And why does his power work through you (Self Centered). Is it not that you work through his power? You need to understand works/fruits etc.

Since you're Carnal. I'll give you an earthly example:
You join the army. You take orders from the general, you don't go anywhere unless ordered to do so. Even if it seems good.

OR...

You DO NOT hand Christ a filled out sheet and TELL him to sign on. You hand him a blank sheet that you signed in advance. He fills it out.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/7/09




Kathr, you jump on Pastor Jim because he said our works were out of love for Christ. I told you he was correct you argued. Now you say,

"Our works are "FAITH that works through LOVE", there's no other kind of works...."

was he wrong in what he said? I don't think so. He did not have to add Faith as you did to make it look more riligious, If you love Christ you do have faith. It was not necessary to quote faith if you have love for Christ. Without faith you cannot love Christ. Do you realize what you say. Stop picking on the little things, join us in bringing the word out Kathr.
---MarkV. on 11/7/09


MarkV, no works of Sorcery are self righteous to begin with. Their satanic, and cannot be compared to those who claim to do works in Jesus Name..

Simon not knowing about Jesus at that time could never have done or said he did works in Jesus name.

Our works are "FAITH that works through LOVE", there's no other kind of works....it's works of faith.We don't WORK for God, His POWER WORKS THROUGH US!

Also Matthew 7:21-23 begin..those who do the WILL OF My Father,not WORKS.


your comparing these two confused me...but reading all of the story I found something wonderful. The Holy Spirit didn't come to any Philip brought to Christ until AFTER Peter got there. Again, no born again experience comes before belief.
---kathr4453 on 11/7/09


As MarkV stated there are no works outside of Christ.
See John 15:5 (The Vine Passage)"I am the Vine, you are the branches, he who abides in Me and I in him, bears much fruit, FOR APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

BTW the Fruits are listed in Gal 5:22. They are NOT what Pseudo Carnal Christian think. Carnal Christian think works are physical (Cleaning Parks,Homeless) Godless liberals, do this also. So why do you call these bearing Fruits of the Spirit. I can see the spiritless responding... HEY! God wants us to help the homeless etc... Well, thats obvious, but they are NOT your fruits to bring others into the Kingdom (which is more important). King Saul put his righteousness above God and lost his Crown (read Sam 15:11)
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/7/09


Kathr, first of all I was giving a story I remembered from Simon. here is the quote, " But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria" claiming that he was someone great" Did you read that? People were astonished in his works (sorcery)" and he claimed he was great.
Acts 8:9-11. You cannot correct me when you are wrong,
Pastor Jim's comments were also correct. If you do works outside of the love of Christ, you are doing self righteous works which is sin. Anything without faith in Christ is sin. So he is right. All Christians do works, out of the love for Christ, they love the Lord and want to work for Him.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


Kathr~ It's fine if you feel you need to correct someone and/or help someone for we all need help and guidance at times....but we must remember what it states in 2 Timothy 2:23-25 "Avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition."

Also we must all be reminded what the Bible teaches us about the true character of the new man: tender mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, bearing with one another and forgiving, love.
---Anne on 11/6/09


Kath4453 ///MarkV, what verse in scripture describes Simon the sorcerer as astonishing the people with his works and love for the people? Did you just make that up?//

Mark didn't make it up, you read it incorrectly.Love for the people??? Mark said ://It reminds me of the story of Simon the sorcerer who astonished the people with his works AND HE LOVED FOR THE PEOPLE TO THINK HE WAS FROM GOD".//

He was probably thinking of this scripture.
Act 8:9 (NASV)Now there was a man named Simon, who formerly was practicing magic in the city and astonishing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great,

It seems like you go OUT OF YOUR WAY to hassle MarkV over ANYTHING. Why?
---Donna66 on 11/6/09


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Awesome post Mark Eaton...and yes, I feel like that all the time. But God will have his day of vengeance so I put my faith in that.

I hope God builds up a righteous Army before His day of wrath, that people like you and me and many many others, might be able to defend our God, not with the weapons of man, but with the sword of the Spirit.
---Anne on 11/6/09


Alan, my question was where does it say simon astonished the people with his works. No verse states Simon astonished anyone with works. Pastor Jim said those who's works are not in love are not saved. MarkV then agrees and makes his comment re: Simon and his works. My comment was in that context.

Paul teaches the wood hay and stubble will burn, but that one,if truly saved is still saved.



MarkV, I'm sorry you cannot take any correction when found wrong. I see you are on the war path with very UGLY personal statements.

When you make PERSONAL Insults, as did Pastor Jim, your insult GOD. not me. I don't insult your person, family, integrity or relationship with God! That's where you fight DIRTY!!
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


Kathr~ I care about you, but you don't need to give MarkV. such a constant hard time. Calvin had some messed up ways, but he brought out the doctrines of grace. Even Wesley respected these doctrines of grace for they are completely biblical, but the only problem that Wesley really had with TULIP is the only problem I have with it...TULIP is a correct teaching overall if it's understood correctly, but normally many people take advantage of God's grace in these TULIP teachings and turn His grace into a license to sin.
---Anne on 11/6/09


Pastor Jim, Shall we continue to sin because we are under Grace..God forbid. Romans 6. Sanctification! Do you know NO ONE taught me that, not one person taught me my identification with Christ in His death and resurrection life but God Himself ONLY a FAITHFUL GOD DID!!! Praise God!!!

Galatains 2:20 & 21 state GRACE is Calvary...Crucified with Christ, living by the faith of the Only Begotten Son...having Christ formed in you, painfully through the fellowship of His sufferings. being conformed to His Image, as Paul also states being conformed to His death and resurrection life. Phil 3.

OUR suffering is all together different than those who will go through the Great Tribulation. We're not being conformed to His Wrath!
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


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Kathr ,,, "MarkV, what verse in scripture describes Simon the sorcerer as astonishing the people with his works and love for the people? Did you just make that up?"

Actually, Kathr, you misread what Mark wrote, which was "It reminds me of the story of Simon the sorcerer who astonished the people with his works and he loved for the people to think he was from God".

Mark is saying that Simon loved the people to think he was from God, not that he loved the people.

That's something quite different!
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/6/09


Kathr, you blame me, don't like me, obsessed with me, you don't believe Shawn T, Mark E, Pastor Jim, Donna, Linda, now Anne, Bob, and Jack B whom you say was teaching the law, what a corrupt mind you have by twisting his words too. So as soon as someone disagrees with you, they go in a group and they are your enemies. What a lonely life you must live. I really feel sorry for you, your family and friends. And how about those in Church who disagree with you?
And since you were deceitful when you were using the name Ralph, now you want to connect us with your sin. Kathr, we don't all agree with every doctrine, that does not make us enemies, only shows that we are human and don't think exactly alike, some have revelation others don't.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


CORRECTION!!! My Post of 11/5/09 had a typo..
IT SAID...

"And go through tribulation like ALL believers in the past."

IT SHOULD SAY..

And NOT go through tribulation like ALL believers in the past.

Hate when that happens!
---Pastor_Jim on 11/6/09


Iniquity (lawlessness) can be attained by simply breaking ONE of God commandments, because according to His word, breaking one is the same as breaking them ALL. And what Christian doesnt sin 1 time per day?

1 John 1:8
---JackB on 11/6/09

Thank's Anne, pastor Jim, Bob, Jack B, and others who already know the God we have, the God of the Bible. ......
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


MarkV, are you thanking Jack for keeping us still under LAW?? For Anne telling us we can lose our salvation?

How many MarkV's are here online. One of you need to change your name or add numbers to the end!!
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


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MarkV--//They should read the passage first and then see if it contradicts who God is, if it does, then they have it wrong.//
Then THEY have it wrong!

True. This is what many false teachers fail to do. They take a scripture that sounds like what THEY want to say, and teach it according to their own misguided interpretation. They do not consider it according to the WHOLE of God's Word.

The Christian listener must be careful to compare the teaching to what they themselves know of the nature of God. The Holy Spirit helps us discern the truth if we let Him. Thus,even fairly new believers will sometimes "sense" an error, though they may not be able to quite identify it.
---Donna66 on 11/6/09


I had heard about the disgraceful acts against the picture of Christ. I didn't want to believe it...to show it on television is worse than despicable! Studio auiances are programmed to laugh at anything a host does, but it's hard to imagine a whole group of people this dispraved! Surely the end must be near.
---Donna66 on 11/6/09


it reminds me of the story of Simon the sorcerer who astonished the people with his works and he loved for the people to think he was from God, and asked Peter for the power of laying on of hands so that other could receive the Holy Spirit and Peter condemned him for asking or even trying to buy the gift. and Peter said, "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God."
Coming to Christ with the wrong intention is useless.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09

MarkV, what verse in scripture describes Simon the sorcerer as astonishing the people with his works and love for the people? Did you just make that up?

Can you give me that verse please?
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


HBO aired a show (Larry Davis) where he urinated on the face of Jesus and they all laughed.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/5/09

I am totally shocked...why have I not heard about this before? Why are the voices of God's people?

We just had a discussion last night on anger. Where is the threshold for righteous anger? I feel like Peter a lot. I want to draw a sword and take someone's ear off, everytime I see junk like this. But the HS keeps me from doing so. I am angry and tired of my Lord being trampled on.

Does anyone else feel like this?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/6/09


DITO!!!!!!
---miche3754 on 11/6/09


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They should read the passage first and then see if it contradicts who God is, if it does then they have it wrong. It helped me so much. Anyone can do this.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09

No MarkV, not anyone can do this. You make it sound like a religion..not a personal relationship. That's what's wrong with you. Your conscience before God is seered because Calvin has become your conscience!

One must KNOW God personally, spend time with Him, allow Him to reveal Himself to You, and not second hand knowledge,brainwashing you into their understanding.

I love Ephesians 3:14-the end of the chapter.

Only through Jesus Christ can anyone KNOW the length, breadth, height and width and the KNOW the Love of God that passes knowledge.
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


Thank's Anne, pastor Jim, Bob, Jack B, and others who already know the God we have, the God of the Bible. I have mentioned this before, that if a new disciple, when he comes to Christ, was taught first who God is in Scripture, everything about God, His Attributes, Nature and Character, and plant them in their minds, as the most important part of his/her life, they would have less problems in reading passages in Scripture. They would not be interpreting passages wrong as so many do today taking one passage and contradicting that passage against the nature, character and attributes of God. They should read the passage first and then see if it contradicts who God is, if it does then they have it wrong. It helped me so much. Anyone can do this.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


HBO aired a show (Larry Davis) where he urinated on the face of Jesus and they all laughed.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/5/09

I am totally shocked...why have I not heard about this before? Why are the voices of God's people?

We just had a discussion last night on anger. Where is the threshold for righteous anger? I feel like Peter a lot. I want to draw a sword and take someone's ear off, everytime I see junk like this. But the HS keeps me from doing so. I am angry and tired of my Lord being trampled on.

Does anyone else feel like this?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/6/09


Bob, there is many churches that only teach grace. I believe that when someone comes thinking that all he has to do is receive grace so that he can have what others have, and not because of true faith in Christ, that person is an imposter. It reminds me of the story of Simon the sorcerer who astonished the people with his works and he loved for the people to think he was from God, and asked Peter for the power of laying on of hands so that other could receive the Holy Spirit and Peter condemned him for asking or even trying to buy the gift. and Peter said, "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God."
Coming to Christ with the wrong intention is useless.
---MarkV. on 11/6/09


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Mima, possibly the goats.

Pastor Jim's comments are so out of line. Those who belong to Christ today/yesterday SUFFER and the Church has suffered from the beginning. To think we think we escape suffering is to me an indication Pastor Jim has never SUFFERED and entered into the fellowship of His Sufferings NOW Paul tells us WE DO GO THROUGH .
The SUFFERING CHURCH has faith in Christ...because we live by the faith of Christ...cricified with Christ. Phil 3 the fellowship of HIS SUFFERINGS!!



Now the suffering of those during the great tribulation will be Jews, at the hands of the GOATS who persecute Israel, suffering God's WRATH coming on those who come against Israel.

Matthew 25..Zechariah 12-14!
---kathr4453 on 11/6/09


MarkV~ I liked your last post, and yes, we most definitely need more truly Holy Spirit filled preachers in our day since the miracle of regeneration comes through hearing the word of God! People need to realize that if a person does not experience an overpowering, complete, regenerated, altogether new, Holy Spirit filled transforming change in their life that now sheds and despises ways of darkness, and now embraces and lives for the ways of Light, that that person is not yet truly saved/elect.
---Anne on 11/6/09


Im simply saying that if you dont serve God out of love for the very precious gift of eternal life He has given you then God probably would rather you do nothing at all.

Works not done out of love will be burned up. People doing good works to try to please God or earn His favor are more than likely the very ones that will say ...

Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name cast out devils and done many wonderful works?

I never knew you. Depart from me, ye that work iniquity

Iniquity (lawlessness) can be attained by simply breaking ONE of God commandments, because according to His word, breaking one is the same as breaking them ALL. And what Christian doesnt sin 1 time per day?

1 John 1:8
---JackB on 11/6/09


From Gods lips, if you think good Christian works are enough to earn his favor, you are sadly mistaken. If you put YOUR good works before the work of Christ and his death, burial and resurrection for the salvation of your soul, you are condemning yourself.

It is Gods salvation. He is the author and finisher our your faith.

He deserves ALL the praise, ALL the glory.
Any man who tries to steal His glory will be in for a shock on judgement day.

We are ALWAYS unworthy. Ever single day of our Christian life.
---JackB on 11/6/09


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MarkV, if you're not already, you'll make one heck of a great Pastor!
---Pastor_Jim on 11/5/09


Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.

We are saved by grace. Instructed to fix our hope, stand firm, grow in grace, etc.. Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel. We end up going to churches and hear a different gospel because the true gospel of grace is not taught. One gospel is the ministry of death and condemnation, the other is the gospel of life and righteousness. I believe God might be disappointed with those who believe His grace causes one to sin. Think about it! The law is sin and death not grace.
---Bob on 11/5/09


Pastor Jim, you answered my comment very well. Those who are not moved are really not a part of the body of Christ. Too many tares in Churches too many tares calling themselves Christians. It's just to bad we cannot see a heart.
I believe if you look around, concerning how people act in this country, you will notice that the Holy Spirit is not working very much around us. What I mean is that there is not much conviction going on. The absence of the Spirit is very bad. Not many are saved. Oh you see some change in some individuals life's but you hear mostly evil stuff going on. It's all around us. We are not of the world but we are in the World. We should keep teaching and keep praying that God continues to draw people to Himself.
---MarkV. on 11/5/09


Hebrews 11:1 faith is the substance of things hoped for ,the evidence of things not seen as I face the temptations of life, the terrors of life, my failures in life, I've come through,gown, and persevered trough my faith in the promises of my god not my own works.because as i see my own failures in life I've grown closer to him and appreciate his love and sacrifice for me even more. i am nothing and can do nothing without him. Praise God for his mercy of me!
---jerry54 on 11/5/09


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There are two distinct different events concerning the Lord Jesus Christ return. First Jesus will return to rapture out the believers. Not at that time he comes in the clouds and does not touch down on the earth. Far as it is written we meet him in the air. Then seven years later after the tribulation is over he returns this time to Jerusalem and touches down on earth there. And will set up his kingdom to judge the nations. Question how do you believe the United States will be judged with the sheep or with the goats
---mima on 11/5/09


Kathr, you fit the people I described in my posts exactly. ME Centered faith. God is here to serve you, not the reverse. As long as I have a lovely. And go through tribulation like ALL believers in the past. Ill serve Him, otherwise adios! You really dont care about Him. How do I know? Because you didnt even care to comment that Your Saviors face being urinated on, viewed by millions. His plight doesnt matter to you just YOU. Pretrib Rapture is a heresy started by an occultist Margaret MacDonald (Google it). It is today fad for the bourgeois Carnal Pseudo Christians .Read Matt:24:29-31/John 6:39-54 and see what Christ SAID about trib. Today churches have married the world and so divorced Christ. Few will be chosen! (Matt 7:21/Matt 25:41)
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/5/09


Jesus said when I return will there be faith?

Well, obviously those raptured WILL have faith, because we live by faith, faith in His return.

Then during the great tribulation period, those saved surely will have faith as we do see there will be salvation. Again, only faith pleases God.

When Jesus returns and reigns and rules, will people then live by faith? Faith in what?

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

Those who wait for Him, regardless of when will be waiting in faith of His promises.
---kathr4453 on 11/5/09


Mark, then perhaps they're not saved. I often heard the Lord's question... When I return will there be The Faith on earth. Sadly the answer is no. But for a very VERY few. Not all who say Lord Lord will be saved, but those who do the will of God. Almost all are just Beougious.

LOOK AT THIS...

HBO aired a show (Larry Davis) where he urinated on the face of Jesus and they all laughed. You can't even draw a partial image of Mohamed. The Moslem would have you killed. Yet the 200 million+ Christians in America did nothing.Where's the outrage? Not even canceled their HBO as was asked. Tell me, do you think God sprit dwells among these "Christains". Or are they simply Carnal Christains who don't care about Jesus or God.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/5/09


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there were plenty of examples in the bible after christ healed the sick, those people were so greatful, they wanted to do something for the work of god.

but what is prevalent in churches are quick condemnation, accusation, judgement of something you failed to do & you don't even know what you did wrong.
another is when you are seeking answers, others would just quote a verse without explaining in greater detail & specifics. so instead of having the joy & freedom, you end up being weighed down & in bondage.
instead of understanding the goodness of god, you are forced of being a 'christian'
---jim on 11/5/09


Pastor Jim, I too like Mark E. was surprise you said what you said, and later in the end you said:
Thank God the apostles trembled and did works or we would not have a NT. (Their Fruits)
---Pastor_Jim on 11/4/09"

Because in that one sentence, you gave glory to God for the works of the apostles and not glory to them for doing the work they did. You gave the glory to God with your two words, "Thank God" In Marks comments he was saying the same thing, and so was Jack B. You blame believers for their lack of work, but it's God who moves them to do good works. If they are not doing, it gives evidence the Spirit is not moving them.
And since all good things come from above, nothing is coming from them.
---MarkV. on 11/5/09


James 3:2: "... If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. "
Deep breath, and slow to speak?
"Duty" and "obligation", are the same not opposites or different that we should contrast them.

"When you faith is in the right place, your good works will come naturally."
JackB

Luke 17:10: "So likewise ye, ... say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." The Lord's commands are the duty, the obligation of his servants. That out of love or faith we do good, can't boast, we are commanded.
My concern? That Grace is taught as a gift wrap for sin, quite far from its opposite- the truth...
---Nana on 11/4/09


Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. A child of God has peace with God and loves God. Knowing God loves them casts out their fear. If they love God they are reassured on a daily basis that God will cause all things to work together for good for them. Romans 8:28 God's children also has the fruits of love, joy, and peace to help them every day. Our fellowship with God is one of reverence, worship, and praise for His amazing grace and loving kindess.
---Bob on 11/4/09


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Mark that was good post.

I've been try to say that on several posts, but when I used the words "Fear of God" I got Gee... I'm not afraid of God...Blah blah blah. Many people do not know it's true definition and take offense. Im glad your church is not one of the ones I described, but as you say many (TOO many) American Evangelical Churches fit my description and if we were all honest we would admit to this. Anyway its just my observation nothing else.
Thanks for your post
---Pastor_Jim on 11/4/09


Tell me it's not so.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/4/09

Perhaps in your church, but not mine.

What you are describing are the "tares" and not the wheat. Try cultivating the wheat more and the harvest will be bountiful.

What we lack as the American church is a true fear of God. Not just reverence, but true fear. If we had some OT dramatics, we would fear Him.

The true body of Christ works for Him, not out of duty, but out of love and obligation. We were just saved from drowning, going down for the third time and He grabbed us. You would do everything for that man saved your life and so we do.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/4/09


Mike, I was not speaking against Grace (Justification), I was talking about what is not taught after one receives Grace. That is bearing the Fruits after Grace. The atmosphere on "Grace only" churches is, we're now save, slaughter the OX (Potluck). Like the Pharisees, they believe they are short of, but about 95% of the Glory of God. These churches are generally beaugoise and will not give a dime to someone in need. Let them eat cake. While the Catholics and Orthodox churches, The Jews, who they love to bash (Like the Pharisee of our time) give without hesitation or question. The evangelicals might give to members who pay back later + more). Generally members are intimidated not to ask for money. Tell me it's not so.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/4/09


pastor jim

after adam & eve sinned, god did not burn them up right away. his goodness promised a savior. and before the flood, he gave us sinners 120 years to turn around and repent. and he found favor with noah. (is noah perfect & sinless?) even david after he sinned, god still fulfilled his promise.

romans 2:4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness & tolerance & patience not knowing that the kindness of god leads you to repentance?

people become believer because they want & need to repent & not forced to repent
---mike on 11/4/09


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Really???
I have seen almost no exception to churches that just preach Grace and do not care one iota about Sanctification (Works/Fruits). Because after all "we are save by grace.. who cares what scripture says or God thinks". Totally unaware that God was at war with them and the "Peace" Jesus gives is not tranquility, But a peace treaty between you and God. Not even trembling at the fact they just got an undeserved pardon from Death Row. Which is what they deserved. Imagine if you had someone pardon you from Death row on earth would you tremble at that man who pardon you? But hey that potluck sure was delicious.
Thank God the apostles trembled and did works or we would not have a NT. (Their Fruits)
---Pastor_Jim on 11/4/09


My concern, Nana, is that a LOT of Christians today resemble the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day more than they do Christ himself.

They loved to point out reasons why some people werent true followers of God rather than looking at themselves. How many times did Jesus chastise them for this by calling them hypocrites and we still do it 2000 years later.

Men's hearts were changed towards God because Jesus was offering grace to ANYONE that believed in His ability and WILL to do so. Matter of fact those that considered themselves righteous He didnt even bother with. Since when does being repentant mean that we no longer have sin in us? 1 John 1:8
---Jack_B on 11/4/09


Pastor Jim, sorry but I have no idea what churches and elders your are talking about.
---Jack_B on 11/3/09


yes you can grow your faith when you see the grace of god.
god's grace is rich in mercy. the message I heard last sunday was
sin
judgement
grace

everytime man chooses to do his own thing, & commits sin, god's grace is rich to give us another chance. when those who see it, they trust him more completely. but there are those who deliberately ignore it.
---mike on 11/3/09


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---Jack_B "Would you really get excited enough about an A in math to be a teachers aid?"...

WRONG! You would never be a Teachers Aid, you received an undeserved "A (Grace) you would know nothing about Math. 97% of these churches Elders/Members are ignorant of their faith. I teach at these churches around the U.S. Examples of the Willful Ignorance from these types of teachings (i.e. Math)
ACTUAL QUESTIONS FROM THE ELDERS.
1)Is Jesus a Jew?
2)Is Hell in the Earth?
3)Is Paul an apostle?
4)Who is Paul writing to?
5)Well the Jews worship Jesus don't the?...

These are the norm from Elders(not members) in "Grace without Sanctification" churches throughout the U.S.
Tell me its not so!

---Pastor_Jim on 11/2/09


"If thats true then surely he has to die each and every time we commit a sin and ask forgiveness.?"
JackB
Surely you are speculating nonsense. 1 John 2:1, "... And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". Now he is not a crooked gangster attorney that justifies the wicked and plows over the just and the needy.
"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Romans 6:16-18 KJV).
Now, if you are a servant, finish serving, then love all you want and Do till you drop, you'll be highly rewarded. Luke 17:10.
---Nana on 11/2/09


Ya know Mike thats something that I think a lot of people miss in the gospels. Jesus didnt ask people if they were sorry for their sins and tell them to come back when they were more virtuous to receive their healing. One woman He didnt even speak to until after she had touched his garment in faith and was healed.

What a wonderful, merciful, gracious God we have!
---Jack_B on 11/2/09


Amen Jack B,
---duane on 11/2/09


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When Christ died for your sins, did the blood he shed only pay for the sins you had committed before you came to Him as your Savior?

If thats true then surely he has to die each and every time we commit a sin and ask forgiveness. But does He really do that?

Hebrews 10:12-14
"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God,
From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
For by ONE offering he hath perfected
FOR EVER them that are sanctified."

How is this not grace and only grace?

When you faith is in the right place, your good works will come naturally.
---JackB on 11/2/09


to jack B

that is totally correct.
we respond out of his grace, his favor & kindness & not through fear, guilt, shame, & blame.
but many churches use the tactic of fear in christianity
---mike on 11/2/09


the parable of the great banquet when god invited the sick, lame, blind, outcast, poor. even if these people had committed sins, god is still merciful & kind to forgive those who seek him. it is his favor that make us choose to seek & give thanks to him
---mike on 11/2/09


Hebrews 2:14,15
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil, And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

If you try to do what right out of fear of death, you havent been saved by grace. With grace and total freedom comes thanksgiving and a heart that serves God out of LOVE instead of fear of judgement.

1 Cor 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
---Jack_B on 11/2/09


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Ive been on both side and I promise you this...you will NEVER hold the proper LOVE for God if you are afraid of Him. When the day comes that you realize you are going to be with the Lord because of what HE has done for you, if will change your attitude and heart towards Him. You will then WANT to serve Him and stop doing those things that are against his will.

Jesus asked his disciples once which man has the most to be thankful for and they replied.. the man who has been forgiven the most.

We love Him ***because*** he first loved us. And THAT is straight from the Bible.

The goodness of God leads a man to repentance - not the fear of his judgement. The devils believe in God and tremble with fear.
---Jack_B on 11/2/09


Would you really get excited enough about an A in math to be a teachers aid for the rest of your life?

I dont know about anyone else, but knowing Im going to Heaven because of what Christ has done for me, causes me to love Him a LOT. I see ROmans 12:1 in a whole new light now.

Jesus is not a single step on the stairway to Heaven. Its horrible CHristianity has reduced him to just that. One of many things we must do to merit eternal life.

Is the blood He shed of so little value that we need to add the law to it in order to accomplish perfection? The blood redeems us to God. The blood justifies us. The blood gives us peace with God. Not his blood plus all the good things we do.
---JackB on 11/2/09


what about John 9:1-12
the disciples asked 'who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'

what about the book of job? job's so called friends insisted that job sinned that is why he is suffering
---mike on 11/2/09


Bob -- Excellent scripture, excellent reply!
---Donna66 on 11/1/09


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Galatians 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel, which is really not another, only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. The only thing I ever heard was we are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul spent his entire ministry explaining the difference between the law and grace. If grace is the true gospel of Christ it is not being taught in the church. If so, it is mixed with the law which brings a curse. Paul said the sinful passions of the flesh were aroused by the Law. Paul said sin would not be master over those of us under grace. The knowledge of grace prevents sin!
---Bob on 11/1/09


I know more churches that teach self-help and positive attitudes...which is not "Grace". Some paint God as an endlessly tolerant God...this is not "Grace". If you don't understand the evilness and vileness of sin, how can you begin to understand "Grace"?

1Cr 6:9-11... fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: BUT ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

THIS is GRACE, totally undeserved Grace.
---Donna66 on 11/1/09


The problem most of the churches that they only preach grace to the point where so-called Christians have no respect or really fear God. Generally it goes like this. You're save by grace... now lets have Potluck. If you dont go to their Pot luck your a SINNER!!! But you will notice that no one cares about bible studies (dead empty). That's preaching grace only.
There are 2 parts (Read James)
Most churches today are simply Country Clubs, because they fail to preach Sanctification that is the works/fruits you do after you are saved.
Heres an example
Say you are guaranteed an A for Math, since you passed, you simply don't study and your class is just a breakfast club of scipture ignorant Church ladies (Male & Female).
---Pastor_Jim on 10/31/09


I believe in Grace. Grace is the remedy
for sin.
---Will on 10/31/09


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Bob, I believe that Shawn T, explained it very well. What I believe you are saying is why aren't the children of God taught what grace means. And if they knew what it meant they would look at God in a complete different way. In fact when you talk of grace you have to explain what kind of grace, in what context. If you say God gives grace to all, that is a true statement because all receive from God something they don't deserve. Rains falls on all, the sun shines on all, and so many other things. When it comes to Grace for salvation, that is also something no one deserves, but that grace is not given to everyone. If it was, all would be saved. The definition is the same, the context is different.
---MarkV. on 10/31/09


--- Bob :

Brother, The Grace & Knowledge of our Lord can be taught & shared, but our Growth in the Grace & Knowledge of our Lord, requires Wisdom & Understanding(Job 28:28) which can't be taught by man, it must be experienced as we Live & sojourney through this world by the Guidance of our relationship with the Spirit of God's indwelling Light : which leads us to Understand more of His Knowledge, as we grow in the Wisdom of His Grace !!
---Shawn.M.T. on 10/31/09


the grace of God needs to be understood in context.theres nothing man could do to earn salvation,so God gave his son.God gives freely to those who seek him,but first you must be born again,to be a child of God.In my opinion sin is being ignored by the entire church.
---tom2 on 10/30/09


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