ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

Rapture Before Great Battle

If we recognize that Ezekiel 38 describes a great battle that causes chaotic conditions to exist in the Middle East, then it seems reasonable that the church will be caught away(raptured) before this great battle takes place? Give your opinion

Join Our Christian Chat and Take The Prophets Bible Quiz
 ---mima on 11/2/09
     Helpful Blog Vote (3)

Post a New Blog



Why? Because all that stuff was written to Israel, according to that philosopy.
---Rod4Him on 11/11/09

Please do not talk to me about the Rapture if you are going to insult me.

When did I ever give you the cause to say what you did?

Do you always group people together into a "category" without letting them explain themselves?

Your concept is very flawed. If this is "Rspture" theory, I am not in favor of it.

Please refrrain from putting me in any category.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/11/09


Mark E.

This is also is inconsistent..

The Great Commision is: we are to be witnesses of the Gospel until the coming of the Lord.

NOT... until 7 years before the coming of the Lord.
---Pstor_Jim on 11/11/09


Which came first? The rapture or the philosophy that produced the rapture?

The rapture concept and the philosophy that gives birth to it are intricately related. They also have incredible implications to interpreting other portions of scripture.

If one believes the rapture, it is inconsistent to believe:
1) that world events today are prophetic
2) that the sermon on the mount is for today
3) that anything in the Gospels is for today
4) that any of the promises to Israel are applicable for today.
5) that anything in the OT describes or foresaw this "church age"
6) that the "end times" are foreseeable today

Why? Because all that stuff was written to Israel, according to that philosopy.
---Rod4Him on 11/11/09


Rod4Him:

I did not write the Revelation. I did not put the veil on the Jews for the sake of the Gentiles.

The separation of Christian and Jew is described in Romans 11 and in Rev 7 with the sealing of the 144K. In the Tribulation, the Gentiles are grafted out, the Jews grafted back in. The veil is off the Jews, the veil on the Gentiles. End of the "time of the Gentiles".

Rev 6, the martyrs under the throne. Will anyone be killed for the sake of the Gospel during the Tribulation? In my mind, yes, but only Jews. No Gentiles. The martyrs are therefore not completed until later in the wrath. So the great multitude in Rev 7 cannot be the martyrs, they are not completed yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/11/09


Pastor_Jim:

When you say "It is the same as The Passover and the angel of death" that is YOUR opinion, is it not?

Opinions can differ as you see. I do not wish to argue about this, merely to discuss.

If we cannot discuss this, then we should not correspond about this.

I am resolute in my understanding, as I see you are also. You think you are right, and I think I am right.

As you see, I have much different opinions than the "Left Behind" books or many "pastors" you know. I did not get my knowledge from seminary or reading someone else's opinion, but by years of hard work searching the Scriptures myself.

I believe we need to cease discussing this for now.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/11/09




Mark E, I will give you my take on the end times and you can look it over and check it if you want. It comes from my studies. I will comment on some things but write down the pasages as I go along. I will have to go to another blog for this to happen since this one is closing soon. Blog "Rapture happening in my Life" That one has a lot of room. Blessings
---MarkV. on 11/11/09


You decided to use you own interpretation in sharp contrast to the 200,000+ expert translators for nearly 2000yrs. Jesus Prayed I DO NOT ask you to take them out of the world". John: 17:15.
---Pastor_JIm on 11/10/09

I have challenged YOUR opinions before and you have not answered that challenge, remember the BEFORE word. I am sure you do.

What you are saying is the Word of God is not alive, that it cannot say to one something different than it says to the next. That it cannot teach you something different the secing time than it did the first.

Tell me who are "they" in John 17:15. It is defined in John 17:6. You have read my post about it, so you know my mind.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/11/09


MarkE. Pretrib rapture is an assumption based on an absolute division between Israel and the Church. That distinction is also up for discussion to how isolated Israel is from the church.

I am not saying pretrib is false, just extremely unlikely.

Revelation 6:11. Whenever the events happen or happened in Rev. 6:11, it says that souls should wait until "their fellow servants and their brethern who were to be killed..." Doesn't sound like a rapture is going to happen to "deliever/rescue/take" folks from the things happening on earth.

Thanks for discussing this civilly.
---Rod4Him on 11/10/09


Mark Eaton, I gave you the verses absolutely direct in what they say. I also showed you where the saints are sealed for their protection for the rest of the trib. It is the same as The Passover and the angel of death. They were not rapture then and they are not raptured from the trib.Dan 12:1-3. I also explained the word tribulation it comes form a sled called a tribul used to separate the wheat from the chaff. I explained that Tribulations are for believers and wrath is for the wicked. I gave you verses where Jesus SAID "On the LAST Day" You decided to use you own interpretation in sharp contrast to the 200,000+ expert translators for nearly 2000yrs. Jesus Prayed I DO NOT ask you to take them out of the world". John: 17:15.
---Pastor_JIm on 11/10/09


as REV7 is where (the pause) the Saint are sealed(Passover) Mid trib. This is to protect them during the final destruction/wrath. Read the rest.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/10/09

This is where your error is, and so is nearly everyone elses.

Everyone ASSUMES that the seals are part of the Tribulation. Why? Who declared that?

As I have explained, if you put Matt. 24 and Rev. 6 side by side, they are nearly the same. The seals are the signs, a precursor, and NOT part of the actual tribulation.

The wrath starts AFTER the seventh seal is opened. This is why there is silence in heaven. Heaven is stunned at what is coming, and the Judge is ready to read the sentence.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/10/09




Mark_Eaton, these truths only come through the wisdom we have IN CHRIST, not outside wisdom.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

He starts I am beginning and end, alpha and omega, first and last. Rev begins with Jesus and ENDS with Jesus.

One has to KNOW scripture OT and New. The Holy Spirit enlightens us and clarifies to us His truth.

Mark_Eaton. I don't believe those who don't know or understand OT prophecy, or the UNCONDITIONAL promises to the Nation Israel will ever believe.

If in fact many believe God did away with those promises, or that the Church REPLACED teh promises to Israel....they will NEVER believe.

This seems to be the case....called Apostasy!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


Pastor Jim, sorry to disagree with you about Kathr post. She does not know anything about Calvinism period. I said it before and I will say it again. She has Zero knowledge of the teachings of Calvin or what the reformers taught. They never taught Pre-trib. The vast majority of Protestants taught what is called "Historism" Historism teaches straight forward, Chronological progression by saying that the major prophecies of Daniel and Revelation find fulfillment throughout Christian history while pointing toward the climatic, visible Second Coming of our Savior. Historism also places special emphasis on the ongoing struggle between Jesus Christ and satan inside the Christian Church.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


Pastor Jim, 2 continue:
Before you give her the stamp of approval, be sure what she say's is truth, or you will be found not teaching the Truth if you say she is correct, which in this case it is not truth at all. If she just studied the topics closely with an open mind but she didn't, she has got to wake up earliar with the right attitude. She is looking for fault not truth.
People who taught Historism includes Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Ulrich Zwingli, Robert Barnes, Nickoas Ridley, Hugh Latimer, Joseph Mede, Sir Isaac Newton, John Wesley, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, James Aitken Wylie, John Fox, John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Edward Elliott, Ryle, and hundreds of others.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


Zechariah 12-14 is outstanding. It parallels Matt 24/25.

It say the SAINTS are WITH the Lord when he returns to the mount of Olives IN PERSON. WE are the Saints. We are the Church who returns with Christ to reign and rule WITH HIM. This is the calling and purpose of the Church. This is why NOW, we are not to get involved with this world system. Things have to take it's course.

One day we will even Judge Angels. We are Joint Heirs with Christ, in the Earthly Kingdom Reign.

23 Christ the firstfruits,

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. RAPTURED SAINTS

----25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. Satan..death etc.
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


As I said before, to believe pretrib, one has to believe extra material and eisegses it into Scripture.
---Rod4Him on 11/10/09

Not true. Why do you say this? I have never used anything on this blog but Scripture and I am very cautious not to read INTO Scripture. Why don't you explain it to me.

Is there anyone out there who wishes to explain to me why Pre-trib Rapture is false?

Not bark and shout at me, but really explain using only Scripture.

I can explain my position quite well using only Scripture and have tried. Seems that no one wants to listen.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/10/09


I agree to find out the pretrib rapture you have to study other sources then the Bible.
---Samuel on 11/10/09

No one in John's time who received the letter of Revelation had to go to other sources to understand what John was saying.

It's ALL in Scripture,From Daniel,Matthew 24/25, Zechariah especially 12-14. Then Isaiah 14 and so many more.

Early Church and Apostles KNEW their OT scriptures.

Here's a clue. Acts 1:6/7...Peter asks, will you at this time restore the Kingdom to Israel? Jesus said NO, only the Father Knows. Matthew 24/ 25, Christ 2nd coming....Only the Father KNOWS!!!

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the Revelation of His second coming,to restore Israel!!! All found in the OT Promises!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Bible Verses


Rod4him if what you say in you last post is true about your view, then I do apologise. Your previous post did not read that and I read it 4-7 times. Kathr is correct on her post, and we should stick to that. Mark Eaton MATT 24 is the correct sequence of events (see 29-31). REV6 shows no rapture. as REV7 is where (the pause) the Saint are sealed(Passover) Mid trib. This is to protect them during the final destruction/wrath. Read the rest.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/10/09


MarkE, you are right, and that is an interesting position. One has to believe that the Apostles didn't know what we know, so we can now add to scripture. Let's just add another explanatory book, that's what the Mormon's do.

A challenge in following Christ is to balance learning from Him, and also to discuss eschotology without fighting and devouring one another.

Jeremiah 9:23-24, Thus says the Lord, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, ...the mighty in his might, ...the rich in his riches, but let him who boasts...boasts in that he knows Me.

As I said before, to believe pretrib, one has to believe extra material and eisegses it into Scripture.
---Rod4Him on 11/10/09


Howdy MarkV you have given very good insight and background to the Pretrib rapture fondations.

I agree to find out the pretrib rapture you have to study other sources then the Bible.
---Samuel on 11/10/09


Rod4Him:

I only study the Bible. I need no other sources. Pre-Trib is in fact Biblical, whatever the other shouting voices may say.

Read Matt 24 and Rev 6 side by side and you will see that they parallel each other. The seals are the signs that Jesus lists and they lead up to the gathering of the elect in Chapter 7.

I have offered this insight to Pastor_Jim and he will not listen. He does not have a teachable spirit at least from a lowly lay person like me.

The "comma" you mentioned is in Luke 21 and Romans 11. It is the "times of the Gentiles". Jesus told the apostles about it but they lacked insight into it for a long time. We are more fortunate to have hindsight.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/10/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Arthritis


Pastor_Jim:

I asked you to read the Rev. 6 passage in parallel with the Matt 24 passage you gave me. Did you do so?

You want to shout at me about Pre-Trib Rapture but what is your escatolgy? Please enlighten me. I have talked with you about my views, please let us see yours. Please instruct us, teach us.

You murmur about Olsteen and Warren. Talk to God about this. It is His plan we are living. In it, He allows the apostasy that we are seeing. In fact, it must happen as 2 Thes. says.

Do I fight against it. You bet. In the 2 Tim 2:2 way. By making true disciples.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/10/09


WOW I LOVE THIS ONE ROD..

"You'll need to study their material as you won't find it from the Bible."

A TRUE HERETIC!
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/9/09


Pastor Jim, I couldn't agree more. MarkV says to me all the time....You don't know anything about Calvinism...you've never read Calvin. Soooooo,there ya Go. Mormons say the same about having to read the Book of Mormon too to be able to UNDERSTAND!

Actually when you know the Lord, and His WORD, THAT's all one needs to know to spot the counterfeit.

However I know Christ, I know His Word...who needs Calvin..Right!
---kathr4453 on 11/10/09


Rod4him, you mentioned that I had to go to extra material to learn about the end times. That is true. It was something that God did in my life. He placed me in my car, asigned someone on the radio to be teaching from Scripture about the end times. I listened and came home to learn all I could about it. God moved me Rod in that direction. I used all the resources I could affort to learn. I am not special as I told kathr, each one of us learns about things differently in time. As I told Mark E. that up to six months ago I knew little about the subject. I just agreed what most had taught without putting any effort in it. There is many things I don't know unless God brings them to me. One day I will learn something else. Just like everyone.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


Jim 2 continue:
Luis Alcasar of Seville came out with the preterist view, one that points to the past, and Franisco Ribera came out with what is called Futurism, which points to the Future. Futurism usually see the majority of Revelation's prophecies from chapter 4 onward as yet on the horizon. Concerning the Antichrist, instead of preterism application to Nero in the past, futurism generally applies the prophecies to "the little horn" the man of sin and the beast to a single, yet future Mr. Serpent who will slither into history during time's last sliver (now usually seen as "Seven year sliver." By contraving this ideas, it moved the blame away from the Pope as the Antichrist to some future person.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


Shop For Christian Homeschool Curriculum


Jim, obviously you didn't read carefully. I threw my old Scofiedld Bible away because it teaches pretrib among other incorrect teachings.

You have such a chip on your shoulder that you assume the worst in people.

BTW Jim, you never explained how you call yourself "Pastor" and allow others too, when the Bible clearly says to call no one teacher, or Rabbi. Pastor would come under that category.

If Mark wants to learn pretrib, he has to go to extra Biblical material.

I never said I agreed with that philosophy. Read again. What I said was to show that one has to impose an outside teaching onto the Word.

Besides misreading, you were quite rude..."pastor"????

Should I wait for an apology?
---Rod4Him on 11/9/09


WOW I LOVE THIS ONE ROD..

"You'll need to study their material as you won't find it from the Bible."

A TRUE HERETIC!
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/9/09


Jim, I agree with your statement on Dispensationalism. It is one of those theories that people seem either to swear by or swear at. Few take a neutral position. It has been called the key to rightly dividing the Scriptures and alternately the most dangerous heresy currently to be found within Christian circles. It was definded by Scofield as a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God. But Scofield was not the first to teach the idea's of the end times. The theory or idea for the end times came out of the Council of Trent. The RCC wanted to counter attack Protestantism and bring defectors back to the church so they asigned two Jesuits to come out with an idea.
---MarkV. on 11/10/09


Rod4himself says. "Study any apostate Mark (i.e. dispensationalism) just do NOT read the word of God, because it doesnt agree with us Heretics". Right Rod? I'm glad you admit to the sequence of your heresy by mentioning John Darby and Scofield. Now can you tell us where they got this heresy from? Maybe a Tarot card seance by a someone who is a Witch and Occultist. Margaret MacDonald. (Google it!) Now lets go from your "Holy" books to my Bible. Here are some of the 200+ verses on the last days. Note what Christ SAID not what you say he meant or your own Greek interpretation that is in stark contrast to the over 200,000 expert translators of the last 2000yrs.Get Real! MATT 24:29-31 JOHN 6:39-54, 11:24 12:48 17:15. Want more?
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Asthma


Mark Eaton, You'll probably get more advise on the pretrib-rapture than you want.

To learn it better, study Dispensations. John Darby is credited with starting the teaching, and Scofiedld popularized it in America.

You'll need to study their material as you won't find it from the Bible.

However, once you learn dispensational thinking, you'll be able to see it.

Simply,

1) There is a comma between the 69th week and the 70th week, the church is the comma.

2) Israel is separate from the church, and YHWH is not finished with Israel, so He needs to rapture the church.

3) The millenium period fullfills the promises to Israel, so the church is pretrib-raptured.

BTW, I threw my Scofield Bible away.
---Rod4Him on 11/9/09


So God in fact does/can translate out of this world.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09
*****

Yes and to cling to your theory you must ignore the plain meaning in Luke - it doesn't say a FEW it says ALL

reality is you claim God has lied in this ONE scripture from Luke so you can APPLY another scripture out of context to FIT your antichrist theory

God doesn't "show" Enoch represents the raptured it is MEN who showed you this - IDEA is NOT from scripture
---Rhonda on 11/9/09


Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth

rapture theory ignores this verse to SERVE their lie ...those who prayed to be counted worthy to escape will be taken to safety --------Rhonda on 11/9/09


Rhonda, what the Lord showed me was Enoch represents those who will be raptured, as he was raptured/translated out before the other tribulation..the deluge AKA the flood! . Noah represents those who will come through the great tribulation.

So God in fact does/can translate out of this world.
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


MARK EATON...

If you want to know about the Heresy of Pretrib Rapture. You SIMPLY need to Google Margaret Mac Donald. The Witch and Tarot Card occultist that started it about 130 yrs ago. Then you can Google John Darby the paster that visited he sance and fill his church up with this cult. Then you Google John Scoffield who brought it into America in the 20th century. NOTE this heresy never existed before 130yrs ago! Does that give you a clue??? Or are your blind?
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Cholesterol


MarkV:

I am interested to hear your new learning on the Rapture. The more I study it, the more the Scriptures confirm it in my mind.

As far as "the Left Behind" books go, I have never believed the books were correct. In fact, I believe that if you miss the Rapture but were given an opportunity for salvation before the Rapture, you will be deluded so that you cannot believe the gospel. This is the strong delusion mentioned in 2 thes 2:11-12.

I have also believed very few if any will be saved during the tribulation.

Additionally, after the Rapture the Jews are grafted back in and the Gentiles are grafted out.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/9/09


Scott, then is Israel the son or Christ?

I was referring to Father as individuals as we who say ABBA FATHER. Only those in HIS SON can do that! as we are begotten..not created sons through Jesus Christ.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Yes Scott, in the context of Israel ONLY

But scott, Israel was not His Begotten Son,Israel we see in Isaiah 43 God CREATED.


Isaiah 43
1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name, thou art mine.


Jesus Christ was not CREATED or formed by God!
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


No person ever refers to God as Jehovah in the Old testament because that term did not exist.
YHVH was made to be Jehovah by translaters of the new testament. It is a sin to use this name.


The vowelized vocalization of the four-letter, Ineffibale Name of God, the Shem HaMeforash, YHVH, was known only by the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem, and uttered by him only once each year, on Yom Kippur, and then, only in the Holy of Holies. So holy, so powerful was this secret name that anyone other than the High Priest who uttered it would die -- and even he could be struck down by God if he mispronounced it for some reason.
---exzucuh on 11/9/09


MarkV You are thinking in terms of the doctrine of the Great tribulation, As an event in time, I am speaking in the terminology of how it is presented by the scripture. Not as a doctrine of a day but an event that takes place in every believers life. Jesus prophesied to the Jews of a day that would come upon them because they rejected him, he was not talking to his church. A day of tribulation did come upon them in 70 Ad and one stone was not left upon another because they plowed the city up like a field. The Lord uses metaphors they are not literal but a language for those who understand them to help them live for God.
---exzucuh on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Lasik Surgery


Scott: Can you find any Old Testament scripture where Israel was instructed to pray to the Father through the eternal son?

God certainly was a Father to Israel. But I see no reference to their praying to Him through an eternal son.

Jesus in the New testament calls God Father. We can only approach God our Father through His Son Jesus Christ. Can you find any Old Testament scripture where an eternal son communicates with a Father, as we do in the New Testament? Angels were also sons of God. Not even they refer to God as Father.

Sons are either created or begotten. Was the eternal son then begotten or created before His human birth? It would have to be one or the other.

This is the context of the discussion.
---Larry on 11/9/09


...great tribulation theory and the rapture was not taught by any Apostle so it is not the Apostle's doctrine. It is man's interpretation of what he thinks the scripture is saying
******

Amen exzucuh

Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth

rapture theory ignores this verse to SERVE their lie ...those who prayed to be counted worthy to escape will be taken to safety (Rev 12:14, Matt 24:16-22, Luke 21:20-27) ...those who qualify for safety will still be on EARTH during those times

True Christians know this place of safety to be true ...OT describes many times God PROTECTED his people ON EARTH
---Rhonda on 11/9/09


"In the OT God was never referred to as the FATHER...None of the Prophets called Him Father..." -kathr4453 on 11/9/09

"But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father, we are the clay, and thou our potter, and we all are the work of thy hand." Isaiah 64:8 ASV

"For thou art our Father...our Redeemer from everlasting is thy name." Isaiah 63:16 ASV

"Thou hast seen how that Jehovah thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went..." Deut. 1:31 ASV
---scott on 11/9/09


Kathr, ...I don't read works for salvation from Pastor Jim. I read works for salvation from you, you give glory to man for coming to Christ and not to God for drawing them to Himself. But just because you believe that it doesn't mean to me you will never change.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


You know MarkV, we are drawn to God through the Preaching of the Gospel Impowered by God. The Gospel is the Gospel concerning His Son, who died for our sin and rose again from the dead. ALL of God markv...I had nothing what so ever to do with it.

Romans 4, Paul clearly states FAITH is not works...so why do you keep saying if one has faith in these truths he is working to save himself?
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Bullion


Kathr, you don't come down hard on me because you are right, you come down on me because you disagreed with one points that is taught in Scripture that Calvin taught. And ever since then you have stalked me whether I was right or not, even to compromising the deity of the Son of God and His Word to any subject that I quoted to anyone. You let your emotions take over, and lose sight of what is Truth. The minute someone disagrees he is no longer your friend. You take the same stance as Eloy. Never giving anyone a chance to speak for God because only you are right. Discussions are not allowed. I admit, I too need correction, but it has to be Truth to correct me. The Word of God convicts me if I am wrong, but not any false teachings.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


It appears Pastor Jim really hates those who believe the Church will be raptured, calling them selfish self-centered, which is completely opposite from the truth.

Pastor Jim, to rebuke someone is not cussing and swearing at them. Paul never did any such thing. Paul was defending the CROSS.

Paul was defending Galatains 2:20-21.

You see Pastor Jim, if righteousness comes by keeping the LAW, WHAT those Lawyers were doing by not eating meat with the Gentiles,or even eating with Gentiles, was wrong.

Why? Because God already showed Peter concerning Cornelius that Gentiles were not dirty meat,as was the comparison with the meat on the sheet. The CROSS put everyone on the same playing field, Christ not Law!
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


Kathr, I've listened to Pastor Jim, Mark E, and have my own opinion on what they believe. I don't read works for salvation from Pastor Jim. I read works for salvation from you, you give glory to man for coming to Christ and not to God for drawing them to Himself. But just because you believe that it doesn't mean to me you will never change. I don't believe that Mark E, is right on his view of the Second Coming. But just because I don't agree does not make him a bad guy. I always believed in what he does up until 6 months ago. I heard a brother on a radio station say the teaching of Left behind were wrong, and was shocked and begin to study that very hard, and I believe now those teachings are wrong. But not everyone learns at the same time.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


MarkV
I come down very hard when someone is pushing apostasy. Was Paul nice to Peter when he refused to eat with the Gentile or did he jump on his face cursing and swearing at him face-to-face.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/8/09

Markv, I'm sorry you feel I come down hard on you. However I have never as Pastor Jim believes Paul did, curse and swear at you.

Paul rebuked Peter because of the Lawyers
Peter was afraid of, so he just went along with the flow....but Paul said his actions were more serious...and at the expense of the CROSS.

However it appears Pastor Jim is promoting the Law aka works, avoiding the CROSS, as I see he asked on another blog....what if God changed His mind and it was by Law???!!! Are you ready?
---kathr4453 on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Menopause


Exzucuh, I was reading what you said and you said,
"The bible says the angels will mark those that will be destroyed so they will be distinguished from the church, It says that the tares will be taken out first not the wheat. The Bible says the Church must endure tribulation"
From what is the Church enduring tribulation from if the tares are all gone?
Can you explain a little? You seem to contradict what you said, because you later state that "He said if they killed me, they will kill you" who will be doing the killing if the tares are gone? I just want to make sure I heard you correctly.
---MarkV. on 11/9/09


The Bible says Jesus will come back a second time, It says that he will set up his kingdom, It says that heaven and earth will marry and become one. It does not say he will leave after he returns or destroy the earth while he is gone and then return again. The bible says the angels will mark those that will be destroyed so they will be distinguished from the church, It says that the tares will be taken out first not the wheat. The Bible says the Church must endure tribulation, A servant is not above his master if Jesus suffered his servants will also suffer. He said if they kill me the will kill you to.
---exzucuh on 11/9/09


Apostasy would be saying that Jesus is not coming back a second time. The Bible very plainly says he will. But the great tribulation theory and the rapture was not taught by any Apostle so it is not the Apostle's doctrine. It is man's interpretation of what he thinks the scripture is saying. An opinion can never be considered apostasy.
---exzucuh on 11/9/09


The word you use Rapture is a latin translation of the Greek harpazo har-pad'-zo
to seize (in various applications):--catch
(away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

This is the same word used in Mt 11:12 saying the kingdom of God is taken by force(harpazo), meaning
that it is given by the power of the Holy Spirit( Ye shall receive power after the Holy Ghost is come upon you) All Paul was doing was comforting those whose loved ones had died, saying that they were not lost but with Christ, and at his second coming they would be with him and those that are alive at that time would be changed, glorified at the same time by (Harpazo)force power of the Holy Spirit. If that same Spirit be in you it will quicken your mortal body.
---exzucuh on 11/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Penpals


PASTOR_JIM:

What if I could give you a Scripture that could rock your end time theology and make you change your mind. Would you listen to if or would you continue to call me a heretic?

You have given me Matt 24:29-31 as a Second coming passage. What if it is not? What if it is a Rapture passage?

Read Rev 6:12-17 and the Matt passage side by side and compare them. They are almost identical word for word. Even the sign in the sky is in the Rev 6 passage.

This is when the passage of Matt takes place. Not at the Second coming, at the gathering of the elect, when the sixth seal is broken, right before wrath starts, when the great multitude arrives in heaven. The gathered elect.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/8/09


your idea of what John 17:15 is distorted
---Rhonda on 11/7/09

So you are going to tell me that Jesus never prayed about His disciples and that everything He prayed or said about His disciples applies to us as believers?

Was he talking about you in this or about the disciples:

John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world, they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word"

The answer to this guestion determines who Jesus is praying for. These people are the "they" in the next thirteen verses.

I read the disciples here and us believers later in verse twenty.

You read US in every verse. I disagree.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/8/09


MarkV
I come down very hard when someone is pushing apostasy. I am not PC or "I'm OK You're okay". I follow the examples given to us by Christ and the Apostles. Was Christ easy or nice on the Jewish apostates (Pharisses/Sadduces) or did he say it like it is. Was Paul nice to Peter when he refused to eat with the Gentile or did he jump on his face cursing and swearing at him face-to-face. Was Peter nice to Ananias and Sapphira. In fact can you name any of them ever, ever, being nice and PC when there was apostasy?
---Pastor_Jim on 11/8/09


Pastor Jim, why are you coming down so hard on Mark E.? I don't understand. Don't you think that discussing the subject is better? I wanted to put my part here because I think it is important to look at all aspects of this subject, but if someone is going to say things to me as Kathr does every time I write something it is not worth answering many times. You have answered great subjects and I really do like what you say but this subject of the end times has been distorted so well that many have other ideas of the end times. It good to hear what others say and then we can add what we believe. Mark is a good brother who has great answers for many topics and I believe he deserves a little respect just like we all do.
---MarkV. on 11/8/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Accounting


To Mema:

The answer is found in Gen 7:4, and 2 Peter 3:5-9. As well as in Mark 13:28-29. Be careful my friend Mima. Those who say no one knows in Matthew 24:36 was address to disciples at that time only. Jesus don't want them to bother because so much work to do like to evangelized the world. Study the verse in Acts 1:6-8.

Be guard also in 2 Pet 3:8, that let us not be ignorant of one thing that is 1000 years = one day.

see the warning--(luke19:43-44) for those who are claiming they don't know. Day of visitation is Day of Judgment. It is important we should search scripture and pray.
---rosalie on 11/7/09


Nothing big in prophecy will happen before many have a chance to read "Famous Rapture Watchers - Addendum" and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" on Google, period! Check 'em out!
Jon
---Jon on 11/7/09


Mark Eaton, Thank for telling us what Jesus said and what he meant. Can you look and see you are interpreting this to fit your heresy. READ THE VERSE THEY SAY JESUS SAID. Sorry if it didn't say MARK EATON SAID, Maybe Jesus can't speak for himself and needs a self appointed apostate to tell us "what he meant.". Luther said it well "IS" MEANS "IS"! So go follow the worlds new cool fad/antichrists Warren, Olsteen, newstyled "Christian Book Stores". Which are nothing more than self help, rock /roll dens of apostasy. As for me I will go with what Christ SAID! Not your spin. GOOGLE: MARGARET MACDONALD. Occultist/Witch that started Your Faith only 130yrs ago. She is your god you worship.
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/7/09


Mark

your idea of what John 17:15 is distorted

Christ prayed for ALL in John 17:15 and this is CONFIRMED by John 17:20,21 ...Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word, That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us...

there are not "Christian Apostles" "Christian Disciples" "Christian whatever" and then "OTHER Christians"

WE ARE ALL ONE in Christ

Christ PRAYS to The Father in Heaven for ALL who BELIEVE in HIM through the Apostles RECORDED Word so we are NOT TAKEN out of this world but KEPT from evil

this verse does not support your antichrist rapture theory
---Rhonda on 11/7/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Fundraisers


Does it really matter whether we understand the order in which these things will happen, or whether they will happen at a specific time in the future?

Does knowing (or thinking that we know)that make any difference in the way we should live our lives for Jesus? ... whic is as if He might come again tonight, or in an hour's time, or in the next second?

Should we spend our lives vigorously arguing the issues of which day to worship, or tithing, or predestination, or 6 day creation, or post/pre trib rapture... or ... or ... ?

Or should we instead feed the hungry & thirsty, visit the sick and imprisoned & generally love our neighhbour (and our enemy)?

What did Jesus tell us to do?
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/6/09


Pastor Jim:

Matt 24:29-31 Jesus appears in the sky but does not touch the ground. Trump is blown and the elect are gathered. Sounds like 1 Thes 4:16-17.

John 6:39-54 Raise him up on the last day. Again, the "day of the Lord" is not a 24-hour period. Read 2 Peter 3:8
John 11:24 Last day again.
John 12:48 Last day again.

John 17:15 Take us out of the world. Jesus is speaking properly of the disciples until he includes US in verse 20. This statement is therefore made properly about the disciples.

The greek word is thlipsis, not tribulation, and means a pressing together, a pressing down, oppression. Has nothing to do with the church.

Read Apostasy Now for the truth on the MM vision.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/6/09


Mima you are a blind soul. Ask god to remove the scales in your eyes and also those who believe in the kinds of doctrine you believe. Stop listening to the preachers who teach lies like {let's wait and see what happens to the middle east in order to measure where we are in God's timeline}. It is all foolishness.
---metuschelah on 11/6/09


Pre-trib rapture is a HERESY!

It was started by an Occultist/Witch Margaret MacDonald (Google it) she was visited by Pastor John Darby (UK) who passed it to his friend John Scoffield (only130yrs ago). Scoffield wrote the study notes to the Scoffield Study Bible and included this theory. It is a big fad today with Bourgeois Pseudo Carnal Christians and forms megachurches $$$(Ricky Warren/ Joel Olsteen). It attract Pseudo fake Christians who want the ME god to serve them and they do not want tribulation like ALL the other believers in scripture had. Tribulation is for believers/Wrath is for the wicked. It comes from the word Tribul(Google it)

NOW READ WHAT CHIRST SAID ON THIS: MATT 24:29-31 JOHN 639-54, 11:24 12:48 17:15 ...
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/5/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Ecommerce


yet counterfeit christians believe they will be whisked away to never-never-land DISMISSING clear scripture where Christ WARNS to PRAY to be counted worthy to escape to safety because he prays to keep us IN THE WORLD away from evil
---Rhonda on 11/4/09

I am not a counterfeit christian just because I choose to believe scripture.

Why does Jesus prayer in John 17 have anything to do with the tribulation in Revelation?

Since you think that the last trumpet clearly shows Pre-Trib rapture to be inaccurate, please provide the Scripture that shows when the last Trumpet occurs chronologically. 1 Cor. 15:52 does not tell me when it occurs.

And why would the trumpet in 1 Thes 4:16 not be the last one?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/4/09


Remember this verse happened before the end of the world on October 21, 2011 after the rapture on May 21, 2011
*****

good grief ANOTHER date?

following a minister of light who date sets ...scripture states ONLY The Father in Heaven knows TIME not even Christ - time is not written backwards in some satanic code in scripture

"caught away" "rapture" are definitions for RESURRECTION which happens AT THE LAST TRUMP

God protected Israel Noe Lot etc yet counterfeit christians believe they will be whisked away to never-never-land DISMISSING clear scripture where Christ WARNS to PRAY to be counted worthy to escape to safety because he prays to keep us IN THE WORLD away from evil
---Rhonda on 11/4/09


Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation." You are saying, "No! You won't have tribulation."

Jesus also prayed, "I ask that You NOT take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

You are praying and believing, "Don't listen to Jesus, God. You take me OUT of this world!"
---Cluny on 11/3/09

The church is having tribulation NOW. Believers in the Middle East, China, and Africa are being killed for their faith. Just not in the USA.

What the tribulation of Revelation is about is WRATH. God's WRATH.

As yourself, why are the 144K needed if the church is around? Why are the two prophets needed if the church is around?
---Mark_Eaton on 11/4/09


---ROSALIE your date setting is very disquieting in light of the following scripture.

Matthew 25:13," Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."
---mima on 11/4/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Jewelry


This verses speaking of wars with God after the rapture. Those people in different denominations or churches who taught they were save and left behind were prepare war with God. Remember this verse happened before the end of the world on October 21, 2011 after the rapture on May 21, 2011.
Ezekiel 38:22. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood, and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
---ROSALIE on 11/3/09


\\Then what are the people whose names are written in the book of life rescued from?

Did you miss this word? Rescued. Delivered, escaped, slipped away. ....\\

You don't actually think it means pre-trib rapture, do you?

They are "rescued (delivered, eescaped, slipped away)" from the bonds of death and punishment in Hell.

Jesus said, "In the world you have tribulation." You are saying, "No! You won't have tribulation."

Jesus also prayed, "I ask that You NOT take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

You are praying and believing, "Don't listen to Jesus, God. You take me OUT of this world!"
---Cluny on 11/3/09


This is talking about the Resurrection of the dead and the rapture of believers when Christ comes for the second time as Judge at the end of the world AFTER the Tribulation.
---Cluny on 11/3/09

Then what are the people whose names are written in the book of life rescued from?

Did you miss this word? Rescued. Delivered, escaped, slipped away. This is the word that you missed.

If I go through it, I am not rescued.

Why are you stiff-necked about this?

I give Scripture after Scripture after Scripture and still you and Steveng and Pastor Jim are stiff-necked and do not believe the verses or do not answer my questions.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/09


\\Please explain these verses to me:

Dan 12:1-2 .....

Sounds like pre-Trib rapture to me.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/09\\

But your'e wrong, just like those who interpret 1 Thess to mean a pre-trib rapture, which would imply that Jesus does a u-turn in midair.

This is talking about the Resurrection of the dead and the rapture of believers when Christ comes for the second time as Judge at the end of the world AFTER the Tribulation.

Those who are gathered up will escort Him back down to earth. Those who are not His will cower with fear awaiting their eternal fate.

Those who are waiting for a pre-trib rapture will be among the first to fall down and worship the Beast.
---Cluny on 11/3/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Furniture


My opinion is that the God/Magog war lines up with the sixth seal in Rev. 6, which is right about the same time that the great multitude arrives in Rev 7.

Four things happen nearly simultaneously:

First, the Gog/Magog war happens and God shows up and He destroys all the armies of the Middle East countries leaving them defenseless.

Second, a peace treaty will be signed because Israel buries their enemies dead for months (in peace).

Third, a 7 year period starts (Tribulation) because Israel will burn the weapons of their enemies as fuel for 7 years

Fourth, the rapture happens as the great multitude arrives in heaven.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/09


Rich:

Jesus mentions three different instances of "tribulation" in Matt. chapter 24. Does this mean that there will be three "Tribulation" periods?

No, not at all.

Matt 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field, one will be taken and one will be left."

If Jesus waits to "rapture" us until the Tributation is over, how will there be two men working in the field? When 1/3 of all the green grass has been burned and 1/3 all the trees have been burned, all the water has been polluted, and the witnesses have held the rains?

There will be no one working in the fields. The Mark of the Beast will be important to buy food because you will not be able to grow it.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/09


If we recognize.....first off, this is an assumption, then based on the first speculation, we assume a second speculation.

A possible explanation of Eze. is that Israel was in captivity when Ezekiel was written, and Ezekiel is giving bad news that Jerusalem will be destroyed, so don't expect to go back soon.

Another possibility is the destruction that took place in 66-73CE and 135CE.

Another slight (my opinion) possibility is that it is refering to "the trib."

How is the assumption the church is caught away reasonable?

So in conclusion, if we assume Ezekiel is refering to the trib, and if we assume a pretrib happens before the trib, I don't think it is reasonable to base a pretrib rapture on this.
---Rod4Him on 11/3/09


for a "pre-trb" rapture to occur God himself would have to be a liar. The Bible very plainly states that the church of the last days will suffer severe persecution. Paul said "that day" would not come until the man of sin is revealed 2 Th 21-4, and that it would come with the sounding of the "last trumphet" I cor 15:52.But because peaple and the church in particular are not lovers of the truth, they have allowed themselves to be fooled into believing something that simply is n't going to happen. I think we should let God be true and every man a liar.
---Rich on 11/3/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Laptops


There is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture.
---Cluny on 11/2/09

Please explain these verses to me:

Dan 12:1-2 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time, and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt"

Sounds like pre-Trib rapture to me.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/3/09


Sorry, I meant to say pre-trib Rapture
---a_friend on 11/3/09


Cluny, if what you say is true, then how would we be with Him when he comes the second time? we will be with Him at the second coming. so yes there will be a pre-Rapture..the Rapture and the second coming are not the same. At the Rapture Jesus will not step foot on the ground, we shall meet him in the air (pre-Rapture) at the second coming He will step His feet on the ground.
---a_friend on 11/3/09


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.