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Did God Create Evil

Did God create evil and darkness?

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 ---g on 11/10/09
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g,

You need not appologize to me. I merely pointed out the verses.

So I take it you do not believe those verses are the words of God, and that there may be evil that was not created by God. To that premise, I give you another verse...

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Does this verse make a difference?
---BruceB on 11/13/09


Kathr, you of all people have the nerve to say I am someone else called Lisa. You who used the name Ralph to deceive everyone into thinking someone else was coming to your defense. Are that the group was growing against me.
You can lie all you want Kathr, but I do not have to change my name to bring the Truth to anyone. If I think you are a heretic I will tell you. And I think you are. You call good evil and evil good, for you will rob the very deity of God to suit your arguments. And when I tell you, you get angry and argue that I am evil. You don't recognize your own evil, because you call it good. I Know who the Lord God is, was and ever will be, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The great I AM.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


Miche, I do agree with what you said in this part,

"Markv,
just face the truth that God gave a choice in the Garden of Eden between life and death and man made a stupid choice! He decided to disobey God causing ALL sin to be placed on ALL mankind."


That is so true. They made a choice, they failed, they disobeyed, that caused all mankind to fall also. Did I ever say that was not true? That is simple Miche. Tell me something I don't know.
Did God know they would sin? Of course. For we are told that Christ was "Foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


Kathr ... I don't think MarkV is Lisa.

Lisa was a Calvinist and there was another, a man (I forget the name) both of whom like MarkV skirted round challenges to their doctrine.

The male, though, remained courteous, & I know from private correspondence with him that he chose to depart these blogs.

Lisa as you say did insult others, and those who sought to discuss with her she made into opponents.

A bit like Mark, but I don't recall that Lisa ever resorted to misrepresenting what the other people had written. That is unique to Mark, bless him
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/13/09


to atheist

consider this biblical truth. man sinned & rebelled against god, but god sent his son to die on the cross. christ was beaten, whipped, & nailed his wrist & hung on a cross by the same people he came to save. imagine that we are the roman soldiers who nailed the son of god on a cross & he died there so he can save us. but the enemy does not care about us. his agenda is to destroy the human race not save it. does not that show god's goodness & kindness for us?
---jim on 11/13/09




Sorry Bruce b.

I meant from the beginning of Creation.
I don't believe it was God intention to create evil the way we have brought it forth.
I don't think God created the evil that men have in their hearts.
---g on 11/13/09


I choose the second. Since I do not like the LDS believe that GOD is responsible for sin.
---Samuel on 11/13/09

Samuel, Yes they BOTH believe this. LDS grew out of Calvinism. The reason is because Smith grew up with Calvinists in MASS. It was actually Calvinists that left Calvinism and went with Joseph Smith. So much for Election!!

Calvin believed he was regenerated at his infant baptism. He believed that to his dying day. He actually has no personal testimony of ever being Born Again after receiving Christ.

Joseph Smith had a brother that died in infancy. Joseph made up the doctrine of baptizing for the dead BECAUSE of his bitterness being told his brother was in HELL because he wasn't baptized as an infant.
---kathr4453 on 11/13/09


part 2 please print.

Samuel and others. There are more parallels between LDS and Calvinists.

1. They both believe they pre-existed before the foundation of the world.

2. They both put Jesus as a lesser god..His eternal son. LDS believe He was a son, but not the only son, and not GOD.

3. Calvinists came to America believing they were God's New Chosen people, replacing Israel with themselves

4. LDS believe THEY are God's New Chosen People replacing Israel with themselves..

5. Both talk about the City on the Hill, both have that BIG EYE staring down from the ceiling.

It's easy to see where Joseph got his ideas...and twisted those he didn't like.

---kathr4453 on 11/13/09


You really need to go back and re-read the first 3 chapters of Genesis.
And yes you do too cherry pick. You don't use one scripture to witness the other. You choose and accept only the ones that you think back your beliefs.
---miche3754 on 11/13/09

AMEN miche....MarkV uses God's word to CLUB people over the head. I wonder what spiritual gift that is in building up the Church..Exhortation maybe? Hardly.

I really don't think MarkV is a man either. I think she is Lisa who was thrown off with other calvinists years ago who kept insulting CN members.

She fights like a Junior High/High School mean girl! Always throwing those below the belt comments...such arrogance. So Catty! No other MAN conversates as Lisa/Markv does!
---kathr4453 on 11/13/09


g,

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


I presume your question is rhetorical...? Unless, of course, one does not believe that these are the words of God.
---BruceB on 11/13/09




One of the big arguments that men in Theology have engaged in is the Soverignty of GOD.

Does GOD make everything happen or let everything happen and direct it to the best end.

I choose the second. Since I do not like the LDS believe that GOD is responsible for sin.
---Samuel on 11/13/09


Miche, I do admit what you said in this part,

"Markv,
just face the truth that God gave a choice in the Garden of Eden between life and death and man made a stupid choice! He decided to disobey God causing ALL sin to be placed on ALL mankind."


That is so true. They made a choice, they failed, they disobeyed, that caused all mankind to fall also. Did I ever say that was not true? That is simple Miche. Tell me something I don't know.
Did God know they would sin? Of course. For we are told that Christ was "Foreknown indeed as a sacrifice for sin before the foundation of the world" 1 Peter 1:20.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


Markv,
just face the truth that God gave a choice in the Garden of Eden between life and death and man made a stupid choice! He decided to disobey God causing ALL sin to be placed on ALL mankind.
Since Jesus came we now have the choice again that was denied when Adam sinned.
"Through one man sin entered the world".

You really need to go back and re-read the first 3 chapters of Genesis.
And yes you do too cherry pick. You don't use one scripture to witness the other. You choose and accept only the ones that you think back your beliefs.
---miche3754 on 11/13/09


#2 continue:
Just as an architect designs a plan for a building and makes every detail necessary for that plan to be complete and later sees his plan beginning to rise with every detail the architect designed, the same holds true with God. He designed a plan with every detail necessary for that plan, and we are seeing the unfolding of that plan through human time, but in the case of God He never makes mistakes for He is perfect and right always. It will be as He has written, with all its properties the way He wanted. Where we think He has failed, it is only our human minds that cannot fully understand the whole plan of God. Could He have done another plan? Sure, but He decided to do this one. Whether anyone likes it or not.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


#2 continue:
Just as an architect designs a plan for a building and makes every detail necessary for that plan to be complete and later sees his plan beginning to rise with every detail the architect designed, the same holds true with God. He designed a plan with every detail necessary for that plan, and we are seeing the unfolding of that plan through human time, but in the case of God He never makes mistakes for He is perfect and right always. It will be as He has written, with all its properties the way He wanted. Where we think He has failed, it is only our human minds that cannot fully understand the whole plan of God. Could He have done another plan? Sure, but He decided to do this one. Whether anyone likes it or not.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


I'm accuse of cherry picking, The whole of Scripture speaks of the Sovereign Lord of all Creation. From Genesis to Revelation, His Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, His holiness, His Supremecy, His decees, His providences His Kingship, displays that He is the only Sovereign God. To say He is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Most High, doing according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitiants of the earth, so that none can stay His hand or say into "Him what doest
thou?"
To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that" He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will" Ps. 115:3.
---MarkV. on 11/13/09


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Your 'god' is not the same 'god' as the man who abducted a 14 year old, and had children with her as instructed by his 'god'.
---atheist on 11/12/09

Thats certainly the truth. Man can make anything a "god".
Why do you think that God says not to have any other "god" because hes the one true God?
There are people who love their cars and other such objects over God. You have to understand that satan is the "god" of the world, whispers in peoples ear and gives men ideas(see Gen chap 2-3). Its man's choice wheather they act on it or not. Man reaps what they sow.
On a side note, I believe its wonderful that you are asking questions because it means you are searching.
---miche3754 on 11/13/09


Atheist thanks.

However my Christian faith far exceeds taking comfort.

I take comfort in good red wine, and special comfort in the love of my wife. However Jesus revolutionized my life. Not just feelings.

In my early days as a Christian I witnessed Christian's praying for an angry, abusive and violent girl. I witnessed her hurl a 100kg man against a wall. Via prayer, that day, (not mine), this rebellious woman was delivered, becaming a placid happy loving daughter. She remains the same to this day.

I am sure this appears as fantasy to you. However it is/was reality.

The power of God to transform has to be seen to be believed. This did not come from the will of man, nor any imaginary friend.
---Warwick on 11/12/09


Alan my Satan/cars analogy compares God creating Satan with man 'creating' cars. God did not create Satan evil. He was not evil but decided to rebell, becoming evil. What he does springs from this decision.

Cars being inanimate cannot be evil but by human decision become tools for evil. Some drivers are dangerous day-dreamers, others drive drunk, some drive at excessive speed, others frustrating road-blocking road-hogs. By their decisions, to drive so, they cause injury, death and suffering. To me their actions are evil.

No analogy is perfect, especially one which compares God as Creator with man as 'creator.' I am open to consider a better analogy!
---Warwick on 11/12/09


Kat, Amen to this statement. "Lets do this...rather than say free will, let's use SELFWILLED!"

If one truly understood that statement, one would understand what Mark V. has been saying all along, that which one may call their will, is not "free will" at all, but rather an exercise of ones God given ability to chose between His will and the will of His opposer. For without the Father one could do nothing. "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve, I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" Does man have the "free will" to chose both? "No man can serve two masters:"
---Josef on 11/13/09


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Atheist ... you have hit the problem.

Sadly, there are so many who hi-jack "God" to justify their own evil selfish actions.

But don't blame God ... NO you would not because you don't beleive any "god" exists.

But the fact that many do use "god" as justification, or even manufacture a "god" of their liking, does not mean that God does not exist.

It is one of those things that I wrestle with ... why does God (for I do believe in my loving God) alllow that sort of thing to happen?
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/13/09


pt1
to atheist

there are religious leaders who pervert the gospel or word of god. I just saw an imam in CNN & he said that it is written in their 'bible' to terrorize others. you also know the story of jim jones & david koresh. that is where you can exercise your free will. if they teach & pervert the word of god, you can say no & you can reject that teaching.
---jim on 11/12/09


Warwick ... I'm glad you don't beleive that God made us robots

As to Satan & cars, I still think there is a difference.

Satan has chosen to make evil his prime purpose.

(now the predestionalist will say that that choice was in God's plan ... which must imply that they beleive God created evil)

The motor car has no choice. Although a very few may use the car deliberately to kill people, ther is no way you can say that it's prime purpose is to kill, or that man (in general) has made killing the prime purpose of the car.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/12/09


Warwick,

That is an excellent example.

I have said before that I have no problem with people who take comfort, as you clearly do, from their beliefs. (Even if that comfort comes from what I consider an imaginary friend.)

Child molestation does happen, with some perversely claiming it is to do 'god's will'.
Or suicide bombers who do it for 'god' and 72 virgins. Or use 'god' to justify hate toward others that are different than themselves.

I have taken the practice of putting 'god' in quotes to emphasize 'god' as a concept, and a personalized concept of god for everyone.

Your 'god' is not the same 'god' as the man who abducted a 14 year old, and had children with her as instructed by his 'god'.
---atheist on 11/12/09


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to atheist

god is the creator & he is stronger than the creation. and one day he will wipe out all sin including satan. even all the evil that is happening, god is still showing how good he is. god does not want to force people to turn to him. god wants people to decide to repent & to be his child, & god be our heavenly father. our life can expire anytime.
lucifer's pride & arrogance on account of his beauty chose to lie & 1/3 of the angels believed him. but god promised that 1 day all this will end. that is why the other side is so busy.
---jim on 11/12/09


Numbers 14:19
Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Micah 7:18
.....because he delighteth in mercy.


Alan I know how MarkV is.

MarkV does not know his bible. He cherry picks ONLY those verses that support a false doctrine.

God would never ask man to do anything He hasn't first given man the freedom to do.

REPENT!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/12/09


But I am truly bothered, by those now and historically who have their belief in 'god' to justify all manner of acts and political positions small and large, horrendously violent and widespread, and incredibly trivial but selfish and self-serving.

It is the 'use' people put their belief in 'god' that is disturbing.
---atheist on 11/12/09
And that is NOT how the One true God works either, Atheist.
Those who are truly lead by God and HIS spirit will display certain things. Galatians 5:22-23. If they aren't showing those, then they aren't operating in God's Spirit.
---miche3754 on 11/12/09


Atheist imagine you and I set up an organization to help children who had been sexually abused. Then we discovered that one of those running the organization with us was further molesting them. We would be devestated.

Likewise those who love and serve the Lord Jesus are devestated by evil people who use 'God' as their excuse for evil.

If there was no 'God' they would find something else to justify their evil. I am with you.

I did detect anger in your writing so maybe this was it!
---Warwick on 11/12/09


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Mark, thank you for your two posts. I imagine you are commenting upon what I have written.

I don't quite get your point. A little explanation please. Are you saying man does not have free will to chose to do evil? Are you saying that Adam had no option but to eat the fruit?
---Warwick on 11/12/09


Kathr ... I am pointing out the implications of what MarkV is saying! I don't agree with it, any more than you do.

I agree with all you say on this issue.

Sadly MarkV will no longer respond to me. He got fed up with me pointing out the way he twists all that I say. He told me, as he has since told you, that I want to take the glory for my salvation, that I want God to be grateful to me for accepting Jesus, that a true Sovereign can't grant freewill. (Now there's a puzzle ... a Supreme being who is limited in what He can do!) And I am blaspheming God by asking how a just God would punish someone for behaving exactly as God has made him behave.

Join the club!
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/12/09


Warwick, they are free to follow God or not. The problem is they do not follow God. They cannot follow God. They cannot because they are not willing to. They are not willing to because, "And if our Gospel is veiled it is veiled to them that parish, in whom the god of this world (the devil) hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them" In a word, then, fallen men without the operation of the Spirit of God, are under the rule of Satan. They are led captive by him at his will, 2 Tim. 2:26. God now exercises the right of releasing whom He will, But the Stronger then he has liberated a part of his captive Luke 11:21,22.
---MarkV. on 11/12/09


Warwick 2 continue please:
Let me also say that Scripture declares that fallen man is a captive, a willing slave to sin, and entirely unable to deliver himself from this bondage and corruption. He is incapable of understanding, and much less of doing, the things of God. He is in a state in which he is free only to do the will of his master, which in this case is sin. It is this to which Jesus refered to when He said, "Everyone that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin." John 8:34.
---MarkV. on 11/12/09


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Warwick,

Put my anger aside? What anger? I am not angry with 'god'?

But I am truly bothered, by those now and historically who have their belief in 'god' to justify all manner of acts and political positions small and large, horrendously violent and widespread, and incredibly trivial but selfish and self-serving.

It is the 'use' people put their belief in 'god' that is disturbing.
---atheist on 11/12/09


The first sentences of my last post should have read "Mark says that we have no freewill. That mean that we all act as God decrees"
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/11/09

Alan God gave man free will, the freedom to chose life or death. We don't have the freedom to translate ourselves to the moon, or change God's covenants with man, or change the way of salvation..or even change ourselves. We can't change a tree into a boat.

But when God put a tree in the garden and said IF YOU EAT you will die...they FREELY chose to eat and die.

If God wanted a PERFECT creation where no one had any free will, there would be no fallen angels, or fallen man.


---kathr4453 on 11/12/09


Athiest, All the lost were athiest at one time, separated from God. You don't know if you will one day come to faith in Christ. Right now you speak against God, but so did all the others who were lost. You just do it in different ways. No one knows who will come to Christ, but God. All who come will come by the will of God.
God was alone when He made His decrees, and His determinations were influenced by no external cause. He was free to decree or not to decree, and to decree one thing and not another. This freedom is ascribe only to Him who is supreme, independent, and sovereign in all things. Every instance where God has decreed an end, He has also decreed every means to that end.
---MarkV. on 11/12/09


Alan, I definitely do not believe God created anyone to be 'hell fodder.' As Scripture says, and as I have quoted, (John 3:16,17) God sent His Son to save any who would believe, not to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Satan was not created with evil his prime purpose. The evil Satan does is by his decision, and he will pay for it. Angels and humans have free will, free to follow God or turn away. How could our God judge anyone if they were not free to choose between good and evil?

I think my car analogy stands. Cars were created for transport, and enjoyment. However human will can and does turn them into deadly weapons.
---Warwick on 11/11/09


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Alan all analogies are imperfect. Hoewever I believe Atheist wants to know God. If he met a woman he was strongly attracted to, a possible wife, he surely would not approach her the way he approaches the idea of God. Of course he does not yet believe in God and God will never reveal Himself as long as he continues with this wrong attitude.

Atheist did not know this woman would become his wife but he maintained an open mind and got to know her patiently, lovingly, with a right attitude.

If Atheist put his anger aside and humbly asked God to reveal Himself He will. But only to those with the right attitude. Rape and love-making are similar acts but the attitude is absolutely opposite!
---Warwick on 11/11/09


Alan,

If that last was to me, I do understand that you believe in freewill. But the ironies of a pre-determined universe created by 'god' or an absolutely mechanized one defined by known and yet to be known scientific 'laws' is absurdly fun to contemplate...
---atheist on 11/12/09


Marv,
so you are saying that initially God made man to be evil? Preposterous!
Provision was made after man fell!
See Gen. 3:15!

God did not create man evil. He created man because he loved us. Man was fine until they disobeyed GOD!
Why do you not get that?
Everything was honky dork until man meesed up!
God certainly didn't make man disobey him!
AND God did not create evil!
It is not possible for God being 100% good and 100% love to create evil.
Satan brought evil ino the world with his disobedience to God and turned around and passed the torch right on to us.
Josef is not correct when he says that God made evil. God did not!
---miche3754 on 11/12/09


The first sentences of my last post should have read "Mark says that we have no freewill. That mean that we all act as God decrees"
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/11/09


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Alan,

It would be really disturbing to me if there were a 'god' and he had decided everything in advance. I can't imagine believing that.

That would mean he made me an atheist with the intention of punishing me with eternal hellfire.

But worse, it would mean that he creates murderers and child molesters to also burn in hell. Sure they may get punished, but what about the innocents that are hurt in this life?

If all is pre-destined then what are we all doing---playing out some complex theatrical production directed and written by 'god'?

Kudos for the props, they are really awesome ---he did a great job with the set decorations.
---atheist on 11/11/09


Mark says that we have no freewill. That mean that we all act as he decrees. So those that do not accept Jesus are acting as God decrees.

They are obeying Him, except that He gives them no option .. He has designed and made them not to accept Jesus, and not to be saved.

How can God punish them for being exactly as He makes them?

Mark goes on "The others believe they are in control. And when someone tells them, that is what they are saying, they get angry" Indeed, it would be quite justifiable to get angry when Mark tells us that we are saying something that we are not saying.

But we don't get angry, just point out that he is bearing false witness. We are in fact quite sorry for him.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/11/09


Jim,

So what you are saying is the Satan has equal powers to god. Or god is letting Satan do what he does even though god is stronger.

Or are there essentially two gods, God and Satan?
---atheist on 11/11/09


to atheist
lucifer was an angel with beauty & perfection. but when his beauty and perfection went up his head, he became arrogant & proud. he made HIS own decision to be above every angel including god. then he deceived 1/3 of the angels. bec of that arrogance, he was cast out not when he was still good & perfect. he has free will.
---jim on 11/11/09


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13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Satan didn't make Eve sin...

If God absolutely did not want Adam/Eve to sin, He never would have put temptation in the Garden to begin with. That temptation just would not have existed.

Will the New Heaven/Earth also have some temptation to sin...and it all starts over again?

Either Adam/Eve were created with FREE CHOICE, OR The New Creation THEN will have no free will/choice.
---kathr4453 on 11/11/09


Miche, you were doing very good until you continued to talk and changed everything. Joseph has it right on. The plan of God was exactly what we have now. It has not been changing through time. God is outside of time. When He created this plan, He finished it. Every detail in the Architects plan is perfect. What we are seeing is the unfolding of His plan. "A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps" Prov. 16:9. He does control everything that happens, the seas, the heavens, the animals, the birth and death of humans, animals, know's our hearts, what is happening and what will happen. If just one thing was working on its own, without God's permission, then God would not be God.
---MarkV. on 11/11/09


To avoid creating machines God created in us the potential to exercise good or commit evil.-earl

God didn't do this. Man in his disobedience did. Look what happened in the garden of Eden.
God says "you may eat from any tree except the one of knowledge of Good and evil".
What does man do? eats it anyway. So, now we know good and evil but do not know how to control it. Not without the Spirit of Christ.
Before Christ, we knew only what the flesh wants and how to respond to it. Now, in Christ, we can do good because he teaches us how. Notice the Word says that the Spirit will teach us all things?

Kath, great posts sis!
---miche3754 on 11/11/09


Joseph, those were golden words. I loved your answers which speak Truth. I just hope more people come out and speak on behalf of the Sovereignty of God. I am overwhelmed by so many but I will stand forever for the Lord, come hell or high water, for the Lord is my strength and my salvation. Blessings to you and peace.
---MarkV. on 11/11/09


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P3.To think God causes the earth to shake and the volcanoes to erupt and the storms and famines to come fourth is lacking clear thinking of God.
The world as is the human was never created perfect.If the world was then no death from these events would ever be listed in history or our future.
Only primitive man thinks and did think that God caused and causes such perils .Would it be evil that God created a imperfect world to live on in that these dangers cause much suffering and death?No.Would it be good that God created a perfect world?How will you compare such to give a clear answer when you have nothing to compare?Is it not the dislike of this world that we decide to advance because of our experiences of good and evil from this world?
---earl on 11/11/09


Tommy,
IT IS SIMPLE.
Evil IS the absence of Good/Love.
Evil is the absence of God.
God doesn't cause anything thats evil.
Rebellion against God causes evil. Man chooses to keep himself seperate from God and by doing this, nourishes evil.
If people would just do as God asks and repent and believe God, this whole world would be a better place. But Man doesnt want to listen, they are in constant rebellion thinking that they know God's creation better and can do better than God can at controling it.
The clay is always trying to tell the potter what to do!! So, God lets man go ahead and reap what they sow.
People don't even realize that even doing good with evil intentions behind it(what is in the heart) will cause evil.
---miche3754 on 11/11/09


P3.If man was designed perfect then man will not have the capacity to comprehend perfection.Our minds by design, cannot function without the fact of experience. Should man ask God to recreate him as an angel?Same problem -a third of heaven fell. He would not have the experience to make just judgements of what is good or evil.Only by comparrison of two opposites then one will truly know what to decide ,which is good and which is not.Darkness is what one personally enters into when the decision is made to entertain the thought of self will in opposition to God's will..
---earl on 11/11/09


Genesis 49:6
O my soul, come not thou into their secret, unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God, not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre,

2 Peter 2:10
But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Lets do this...rather than say free will, let's use SELFWILLED!
---kathr4453 on 11/11/09


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Nope Athiest, you got that wrong about God sending Lucifer away.
Lucifer seperated himself from God by HIS actions NOT Gods. All God did was punish him. Just like a parent does with a child. Unless you are one of those "free love" parents, then you should understand what I am talking about.
You have really got to get hooked up with God's Spirit on these matters.
The Bible talks about how Lucifer was BEFORE he fell and what his job was and what he looked like. Lucifer is also jealous of mankind because we have been offered something he can't have. And you wonder why there is so much strife in the world!
Why you can't understand the things of God. Because you aren't letting God into your life. You aren't letting him lead.
---miche3754 on 11/11/09


"Why did he do this?---atheist on 11/10/09"
Atheist, to answer to your inquiry. Father said "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work, and I have created the waster to destroy. The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Isa 54:16>Pro 16:4
As Moses was instructed to tell Pharaoh [who in a sense represented evil] " I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence, and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to show thee my power, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." Ex. 9:15,16
---Josef on 11/11/09


Everything Miche said is very true. God permitted it or allowed evil to happen. He did create this plan and not another. If God had not permitted those things to happen, there would be no evil, no salvation, no love, no mercy, no reason to live, no thoughts of our own, Robots.
It does seem like only the hard line predestinationalist are the only one's who believe God is in control of everything. The others believe they are in control. And when someone tells them, that is what they are saying, they get angry. God displays His Sovereignty all through Scripture, and these other people agnore His Words. Not because He didn't say them but because it makes them feel better being in control themselves. So they created their own god.
---MarkV. on 11/11/09


Here is a thought to ponder.

In the New Heaven and Earth..AKA: the New Creation,

Will there be:

1. any darkness
2. any sin
3. any rebellion
4. any Evil that will enter in or be able to enter in?

The answer is NO according to scripture. WHY?

During the 1000 years when Jesus reigns and rules, will any of these too be able to enter in? Zech 14 says not even a Canaanite will be able to enter in. WHY?

What entered inthe Garden of Eden. Ans: The 4 listed above. WHY?

Isn't GOD in all these places?


---kathr4453 on 11/11/09


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Evil is simply the absence of good.

Miche, There is more to it than this. Evil is an active rejection of good and contrary to it. God in His very being causes the parameters that produce "evil". He is the standard for everyone and everything, in that anything that doesn't "measure up" is less than good.
---tommy3007 on 11/11/09


To avoid creating machines God created in us the potential to exercise good or commit evil.
God could easily created all habitation perfect.
Since man is not perfect from the first breath how will we discover good if there is no comparrison.
We are a being with the design of accendant characteristics.We therfore strive to become perfect and thus experiencing immortality.
The idea that God created evil is lacking thought of God's nature and character.
Because some think those in heaven are perfect do not discount they are equally in possession of potential to become evil until they some day experience perfection granted by God himself.
---earl on 11/11/09


"Did God create evil and darkness?" Yes, John 1:3, applicable in this way.
Father 'dispatches" evil, as in "And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets." See also Job 1:8-2:7
Father 'causes or chooses to allow for' darkness, as in "Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, [and] make [it] gross darkness."
---Josef on 11/11/09


Before someone asks what Biblical verses show that the war of Heaven hasnt happened yet...

Isaiah 14:16 shows that there are kingdoms on earth when Lucifer's fall is witnessed

After the war in Heaven...

Rev 12:10-12
"... the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb...

... Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
---JackB on 11/11/09


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Jesus created the destroyer to destroy, and he also created hell and the lake of fire, for what else do you do with trash but to burn and to destroy it: and by purging, just as in Noah's day, the land is made clean for the righteous.
---Eloy on 11/11/09


Atheist, you got it backwards.

God is love

Lucifer decided to try to exalt himself above God. He seperated himself from love at that very moment.

Apparently the angels have free will as well. Some left Heaven to breed with women (Genesis6)(Jude1) and some will side with Lucifer in the war in Heaven (Revelation 12).

Lucifer isnt bound from Heaven yet. You can even read in Job that when the 'sons of God' (angels) came to present themselves before God, Satan came with them.

Rev 12:8 tells us that after this battle their place was found no more in Heaven and this wasnt true in the days of Job so therefore the 'war in heaven' hasnt occured yet.
---JackB on 11/11/09


Miche,

Your logic is that without god there can be no good. And with the absence of good there can only be evil.

Well, when god sent Lucifer away, god knew he was separating Lucifer from himself and good. God must have now that the result would be evil in the absence of good. Afterall, you seem to know it.
---atheist on 11/10/09


Evil is simply the absence of love.

Just as cold is the absence of heat and darkness the absence of light.

God created everything with the capacity to do evil since we all have free will.

We can only speculate that at one time God 'tested' all things and determined what was good and evil. Hard to answer such a question with the limit intellect God has provided us with.
---JackB on 11/10/09


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Possibly. Maybe it's mentioned in Isaiah.
---amand6348 on 11/10/09


Warwick ... Atheist is correct, in his interpretation of what the hard-line predestinationists have said here: that God is in control of everything ... and that must include the creation of Satan, and his planned part in the Fall.

That is a sequitur, not a non sequitur!

(but I don't think you follow that predest. line)

There's a difference between Satan and cars ... for evil is Satan's prime purpose, whereas the prime purpose of cars is to provide transport & pleasure, & any killing is incidental, & not part of the plan.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/10/09


Evil is simply the absence of good.
It is a word we use as humans to describe the absence of good.
Godd created everything GOOD. When God created Lucifer, he was good. But because he let his vanity, pride take over, he got himself removed from God. That means he is absent from God and absent from Good. Being empty of good means he is evil.
The same as darkness is the absence of light.
God is light, and God is good.
So, athiest, God didn't create evil, man did by removing God from their lives.
If you don't believe me, look around at what has happened since the ten commandments were removed from man's sight.
---miche3754 on 11/10/09


Atheist, you wrote "If there is only one god, and that god created everything from nothing, then he must have created Satan.

If Satan is evil or the embodiment of Satan then god did create evil.

Why did he do this?"

This is a non sequitur.

I suppose it is somewhat like saying man made cars, cars kill people, so man made cars to kill people.
---Warwick on 11/10/09


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to atheist

here is a verse in isaiah 14:13

you said in your heart
I will ascend to heaven
I will raise my throne
above the stars of god
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly
I will make myself the most high


and in ezekiel 28:13-17

you were stamped with the seal of perfection, complete of wisdom & perfect beauty

Blameless you were in your conduct from the day you were created, UNTIL EVIL WAS FOUND IN YOU.
you became haughty of heart bec. of your beauty ....

god did not put evil in lucifer. lucifer did it on account of his beauty & perfection....
bec. god has given us choice. he does not force people to accept or reject him
---jim on 11/10/09


Mima my translation says:

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster, I, the LORD, do all these things.


The Schofield reference notes say:

"1] create evil

Heb. "ra" translated "sorrow," "wretchedness," "adversity," "afflictions," "calamities," but never translated sin. God created evil only in the sense that He made sorrow, wretchedness, etc., to be the sure fruits of sin."

I don't think 'evil' is a good or proper translation of the Hebrew.
---Warwick on 11/10/09


The answer to this question is found in Isaiah 45:7,"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
---mima on 11/10/09


God did. Isa. 45 v 7. We sure dont understand some things & why. Those that are Truly born again according to God's One & Only Salvation Plan, will understand it over on that Golden Shore.
---Lawrence on 11/10/09


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Leslie,

If there is only one god, and that god created everything from nothing, then he must have created Satan.

If Satan is evil or the embodiment of Satan then god did create evil.

Why did he do this?
---atheist on 11/10/09


God did NOT create evil and darkness - God is GOOD ALL the time, and Satan is BAD ALL the time. Evil and darkness were created when Lucifer (now Satan) CHOSE to go against God, and say that he was God.
---Leslie on 11/10/09


when god created the angels, lucifer was a beautiful angel. but his beauty made him arrogant & boastful. he said that "I will rise above the most high" and deceived 1/3 of the angels. it was the result of his downfall. then that is when darkness & evil started.

lucifer chose the road of arrogance.when people think they have everything - money, power, beauty, - it corrupts & they start to become arrogant. they think that nobody will touch them. look at corporate CEOs, they are arrogant & boastful bec. they have money & power. and that nobody can touch them or correct them.
---jim on 11/10/09


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