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Belief In Dispensationism

Do you believe in dispensationism?

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 ---mima on 11/12/09
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michael e, you quoted Rom 11:11 and 11:25, but skipped the verses inbetween. 11:17, "..you, being a wild olive, were grafted in, 11:19-20, "...might be grafted in, quite right..."

Rather than Romans 9-11 being a reason to separate from the Jews, Paul seems to be saying don't be anti-semitic. The Jews (Israel) is the root, their branches are broken, and the gentiles are grafted in. Don't be arrogent, Paul says, the gentiles can be cut off also 11:21. The Jews are part of the root also. Most dispensationists ignore this verse.

Dispensationalism reads into this passage many things that are not there, conveniently ignoring some verses while focusing on others.

Be careful going down the road of dispensationalism.
---Rod4Him on 11/30/09


did the apostle peter ever mention the body of christ? acts 2:5.And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 3:1.Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. Acts 3:19. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. (have you ever heard this in our church? )
---michael_e on 11/30/09


We have entered a time of Godly Judgment beginning in the House of God. 1 Peter 2:17.

During this time the elect is being plucked out from the many lies of the world and being restored to the unleavened truth of His Word.

Dear friend, did you know that just as it happened during Christs time, His peoples mind ruled by in part bad doctrine, so it has happened to His people today!

And just as it happened during the Catholic reign, ruling the minds of Gods people with in part bad doctrine, so it has happened today. Leaders either meaning well or knowingly deceiving Gods people, even in our day!

After, all is there anything new under sun? Read Eccl. 1:9 and 3:15
---Paul9594 on 11/30/09


the word is clear, gentiles were not grafted into israel
rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles
---michael_e on 11/30/09


kathr, thanks for the bit of info from H. A. Ironside. What you said he wrote sounds like what I have been trying to say about dispensationalism dangers. I'll try to find what some specifics Ironside was referring to.

However, in light of that, I am a bit perplexed at your seemingly high degree of defense of dispensationalism. There is some small truth (New Covenant) to it, but it is so small a comparison that I wouldn't equate it with dispensationalism.

Part of the complexity of interpretation is to what degree is the church grafted into Israel. The Bible is clear that gentiles are grafted into Israel.
---Rod4Him on 11/30/09




H. A Ironside, a strong dispensationalist, wrote a very good booklet outlining some of the dangers of ultra-dispensationalism and in it says that he has no hesitancy in saying that its fruits are evil. It has produced a tremendous crop of heresies,lifted up its votaries in intellectual and spiritual pride to an appalling extent, so that they look with supreme contempt upon Christians who do not accept their peculiar views. It is a Satanic perversion of the truth just as NEO ULTRA Calvinism is.

michael_e, you said Peter didn't write about the Church ..WRONG. "WE, built up a spiritual/HEAVENLY habitation Christ being the Chief cornerstone IS about the Church. The Church began with Pentecost not with Paul's conversion.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/09


Kathr, again I say your lack of studying what you are going to talk about is always bad. In the studies of dispensationalism you learn who are the people that started it and what their believes were.MarkV**


MarkV, why don't you apply that thought to Calvin who believed he was REGENERATED at his infant baptismal. Calvin never had a personal testimony of being Born Again...not that he can remember.

Calvin did not live by the Faith of the Son of God, becoming obedient unto death of SELF....Calvin lived completely opposite, exalting SELF and murdering anyone who disagreed. Even Jesus didn't do that!! Jesus said LOVE your enemies. Calvin's father was a murderer from the beginning and who Calvin obeyed! Why follow his teachings?
---kathr4453 on 11/30/09


MarkV, ALL dispensations are of FAITH in Christ period.

Adam to Moses = FAITH in the coming redeemer, without any LAW had to obey their CONSCIENCE.

Moses to Christ = FAITH in the coming redeemer more fully explained by the Tabernacle and sacrifice,(of which they had to OBEY) but none of those could make anyone PERFECT.

The Church who now has the Fulfillment of Christ in You, as we are perfect/COMPLETE IN CHRIST MUST OBEY Galatians 2:20

Kingdom Reign= FAITH in the coming Messiah to Israel...blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord...will have to OBEY Kingdom LAW outlined in Matthew & Zech 14.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/09


Kathr, again I say your lack of studying what you are going to talk about is always bad. In the studies of dispensationalism you learn who are the people that started it and what their believes were. They differ is some way but Scofield was one who wrote a Bible referencing dispensationalism. His reference Bible notes John 1:17 as saying,
" As a dispensation, grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ (Romans 3:24-26, 4:24,25). The point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation."
In other words in this dispensation, the conditions for salvation changed.
In Truth, the conditions never change.
---MarkV. on 11/30/09


I missed the distinction that was being made between grace and faith.

Yes, it is by God's grace, which is a fascinating concept.

I would have to check the original Hebrew and Greek, but a friend told me that many times "love" would be better translated as "grace."

It's one thing to love someone, and it's another thing to give grace to someone. Grace, something they don't deserve.
---Rod4Him on 11/29/09




Rod4him, you can take any observation. I like what you write and welcome any comments. Kathr argues that God didn't save anyone until Jesus came, are after Pentacost since at that time the Holy Spirit began to endwell believers. She even mentions no one in the Old T. was endwelled so none were saved. I said that God has been saving and displaying His grace from the beginning. She says I am wrong.
On this, she is absolutely wrong. For one, she is wrong because people are not saved by faith, they are saved by Grace. Paul often says we are saved "through" faith (that is, as the instrumental cause), but never once does he say that we are saved "on account" of faith (that is, as the meritorious cause).
---MarkV. on 11/29/09


Please allow me to make an observation.

The following is a quote from MarkV. "All through history God has saved people by grace through faith. There is evidence everywhere of God's grace in every dispensation."

And the following is a quote from kathr, "Salvation has been BY FAITH! They looked forward to the Cross."

Sounds like you both are saying the same thing, which I agree with.

Dispensationism has varying degrees of beliefs.

kathr, what is one position of dispensationalism you disagree with?

We are living with a New Covenant relationship with Christ.
---Rod4Him on 11/29/09


Again MarkV has added his own twisted understanding of Dispensationalism.

#1
THE CHURCH began at penticost.

#2Legal Obedience was NEVER a condition of Salvation, having works as the fruit of Salvation. If Legal obedience could saved anyone CHRIST would never have needed to come..PERIOD! Grace is NOT of WORKS. Grace is actually Christ in you!

So MarkV, STOP telling people what your twisted ignorance believes,and saying this is what I or dispensationalists believe.

I also stated there are false dispensation teachings.

Before telling ME what I believe...ASK!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/28/09


Part 2 Please post.

ALWAYS Faith! Believing God was counted for Righteousness beginning inGenesis RE: Heb 11 RE Abel. Abel believed God. It was counted him for righteousness. What did he believe? He believed as much as God had revealed. And, God had revealed he was a sinner and that the only savior was God, and that God would pay the penalty for his sin. genesis 3:15. Now, he didn't understand all there was to know about Jesus Christ, but he understood enough to know that he was a sinner and needed a savior and God would provide a savior. That is why it says in Hebrews 12, that EVEN Moses could foresee Christ.

Salvation has been BY FAITH! They looked forward to the Cross.
---kathr4453 on 11/28/09


Dispensationalist believe as Kathr had quote before that Grace begins with the death and resurrection of Christ (Romans 3:24-26, 4:24,25). They say, the point of testing is no longer legal obedience as the condition of salvation, but acceptance or rejection of Christ, with good works as a fruit of salvation. And that God begin saving by grace only after Pentacost.
What they forget is that the basis of salvation in every age is the death of Christ, the requirement for salvation in every age is faith, the object of faith in every age is God, The contend of faith changes in the various dispensation.
All through history God has saved people by grace through faith. There is evidence everywhere of God's grace in every dispensation.
---MarkV. on 11/27/09


The previous posts emphasize the heavenly position of the believe in contrast to an "earthly" calling.

So, we shouldn't pray for a job, that's earthly.
We shouldn't pray for health, that's earthly.
We shouldn't pray for housing, that's earthly.
We shouldn't expect any earthly blessing from God, that's earthly.
We shouldn't pray for a mate, that's earthly.
We shouldn't have churches which gather money, that's earthly.
We shouldn't be peacemakers, that's earthly.
We shouldn't be meek, that's earthly.
We shouldn't pray for our country, that's earthly.

Some of this qualify for "crazy dispensational teachings."


However, be careful going down the road of dispensations.
---Rod4Him on 11/25/09


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Absolutely michael_e, the Millenniel Kingdom Reign..an Earthly Kingdom is a DISPENSATION of Time, fulfilling specific everlasting covenant promises to ISRAEL the NATION, which also includes the LAND.

The Church, the OVERCOMERS,(no land) (Rev 1-3)in this dispensation, being conformed to the Image of Jesus Christ will reign and rule with Christ at that time, His HEAVENLY Body of believers, both Jew and Gentile We become one NEW MAN. THIS is what Paul is teaching us in Ephesians from Ch 1 vs 1 to the end.

After the 1000 years, in the dispensation of the FULNESS of Time when Christ will gather together ALL things in heaven and earth (Ephesians) the Kingdom will be delivered up to the Father that GOD may be all in all! 1st Cor 15 .
---kathr4453 on 11/25/09


kathr4453 finally someone who makes sense.
the nation of israel are earthly people, looking for a earthly kingdom. the church, the body of christ are heavenly people, looking forward to a heavenly home Eph 2:6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


---michael_e on 11/24/09


I believe in dispensationalism, however there are many crazy teachings today calling themselves dispensationalists.

We are in the dispensation of the CHURCH. The Church IS NOT ISRAEL. The Church is NOT a replacement for the promises to Israel.

The CHURCH is not promised LAND, earthly Blessings etc. HEAVEN is our home. We look up, not down and around.

The Church is who will be raptured.


MarkV, I'm not ashamed of the Gospel, therefore I have no reason to change my name for any reason! Are you saying all who agreee with what I believe is ME ?

Don't bother answering MarkV..Please don't address me again!
---kathr4453 on 11/24/09


Kathr, you can use Ralph all you want. All I wanted to do was expose it. I was not trying to stop you from using Ralph. You tend to forget that you cannot change who you are and how you answer. It is written all over even when you want to use a different format. The questions and answers are still the same. You wanted to change it by using "sir." as if that would hide who you are. It's like Trav, when he answers, he could change his name I would still know it was him.
You go ahead and use whatever you want, just don't believe you are tricking too many.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09


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Rom 16:25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Gal.3:4."Whereby, when ye read,ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit," The mystery(secret)was revealed to Paul and not before. (simple reading)
---michael_e on 11/24/09


Well MarkV, I hate to disappoint your accusations, but my answer is quite different than Ralph's remaining the same for all the years I've been on CN

The Mystery is the CHURCH, both Jew and Gentile becoming one new man In Christ, who in this dispensation are no longer a Jew or Gentile but a New Creature. THAT is the mystery that was hidden but now revealed. We are no longer male/female, jew/greek etc.

They Mystery is the mystical oneness and union with Christ as his BODY. Ephesians reveals the secret more, and ends with this truth. Paul began to reveal in his first letter to the Thesselonians concerning the Rapture, and all his letters build upon this truth...

Can't you see these deeper truths in Philippians 3?
---kathr4453 on 11/24/09


Using the law to judge the heart of another is not it's purpose and is a wrong use of the law.

The law tells us what is sin. We can say to another this is a sin. You need to ask GOD to forgive and guide you away from sin. Unlike JESUS we cannot see a person's heart and do not know if they have been convicted by the HOLY SPIRIT who is the only one who can convice a person to give up sin.

When we judge a person's salvation on doctrine or actions we are putting ourself in the place of GOD. We can and should say doctrines or actions are wrong. But never in judgement. Not our job.
---Samuel on 11/24/09


Media personality Joe Ortiz hosts the OUR DAILY BREAD blog and ran a bombshell article "Edward Irving is Unnerving" on it on Nov. 12th. If you missed it you missed a bombshell - correction, a thermonuclear blast! Jon (It's not too late to read it.)
---Jon on 11/23/09


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does any body study dipensationally?
For instance Matt. 18:20 do we have to have two or three in order to communicate with Christ? Does Acts 3:21 And Roman 16:25 mean the same thing? If things are different they aren't the same
---michael_e on 11/23/09


Grace doesnt throw away the law - true.

But it does change that fact that you dont base where your eternity will be spent based on how well you follow it.

The law was never meant to save us, but only to show us our sin. Jesus Christ is the answer to that. It is HIS salvation and things are done in HIS timing not ours. The changes that occur in each believer all differ in which sin they overcome first and WHEN they overcome it. It is GODS work in us. So why then do we still use the law to judge whether a man is saved or not? When you do that, you are judging whether or not you believe God is working fast enough in the heart of a believer. Thats a FOOLISH thing to do.
---JackB on 11/21/09


Kathr/Ralp, I do not have to hide to say something to you that I see wrong. In fact others see it too and question you. I put down my name so that you know who it is. It is you with the same answers, questions, topics. Hey, you can change your name if you want. Many have for many reasons. But I don't think many do it to mislead others.
---MarkV. on 11/20/09


Kathr/Ralph, you continue to deceive as before. If you deceive by name, how can anything you say be creditable?
---MarkV. on 11/20/09

Sir, I do not know what your problem is. Is the problem truth? Have I lied and changed the truth?

Do you have any scripture to accuse me of deceiving you by altering the truth of our scriptures? Scripture speaks for itself. Take it or leave it.

Have I ever offended you? I believe you stated at another time you have no argument with me. Now why do you continually make trouble when we are discussing our Lord?

If I may suggest, are you Bobby1? It would appear as though Bobby1 shows up only to accuse as you do.

Why are either of you here?
---Ralph on 11/20/09


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Rod4Him, Why do you want to fight about the details? This I do not know why.
No one came to perfection in the Old testament. Only In Christ, and Christ in us can anyone be made perfect.

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 7:19
For the law made nothing perfect.
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they( OT SAINTS) without us should not be made perfect.
---Ralph on 11/20/09


Thanks Samuel for the observation.

I was thinking the same thing, but it seems some people just want to fight about details.

Rather than living "Christ in me," some seem to want to fight about the details.
---Rod4Him on 11/20/09


Rod4Him, The scriptures tell us exactly what the Mystery is. Christ in you. This will also answer Samuel's reply. Grace is Christ in you. No one had Christ in them or came to perfection in Christ in the Old Testament.

Colossians 1:26-28 Ralph

So Elijah and Enoch did not come to perfection? How did they get translated directly to heaven then?

The Old Testament points to the New in symbols and prophesy. The New Testamen reveals what the Old is about and who it pointed to. Together they are the Word of GOD revealed to show us all truth and instruct us in righetness. 2 Tim 3:16, 17
---Samuel on 11/20/09


Kathr/Ralph, you continue to deceive as before. If you deceive by name, how can anything you say be creditable? Nothing has changed. You want to pretend you are someone else but as I told you before you have not changed You still discuss the same topics, use the same excuses, put down many verses to proof a point and while doing it, you change the meaning of the passages, and put your own spin on the passage, and as I can see, others have seen the same thing. Maybe Samuel doesn't recognize you but how could I miss you? You see, you cannot change who you are. Only God can do that.
---MarkV. on 11/20/09


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Rod4Him, The scriptures tell us exactly what the Mystery is. Christ in you. This will also answer Samuel's reply. Grace is Christ in you. No one had Christ in them or came to perfection in Christ in the Old Testament.

Colossians 1:26-28

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
---Ralph on 11/19/09


Samuel, please review Hebrews 11 concerning our Saints of Old. Can you find one person listed where any reference is given to teh Law of Moses?
---Ralph

No I cannot. For people in the Old Testament were saved through faith by Grace alone. Sola Grace is and has always been the way of salvation.

But Grace does not result in throwing away what defines sin. Trangression of the law of GOD is sin.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
---Samuel on 11/18/09


Paul speaks of Covenants New and Old. But you say here no one was saved under the Law of Moses. Which means everyone from Moses on down is lost. Do you really believe that?
---Samuel on 11/17/09


Samuel, please review Hebrews 11 concerning our Saints of Old. Can you find one person listed where any reference is given to teh Law of Moses?
---Ralph on 11/17/09


Ralph,

I don't want to split hairs, and I don't want to be misunderstood.

(1) God's character has always been a God of Grace. I didn't say anyone got saved by Grace. I'm not sure where your rebuttal came from. I would also suggest man has always been saved by faith. Abraham for example.

(2) Paul called the Mystery (Rom 11:24-25) the Gentiles being grafted in. There's also the Mystery of Christ and the Church (relationship). Part of that is "Christ in you, the hope of glory." Paul called it a Mystery, it wasn't understood.

The OT convenant and now we are in the New Convenant, which wasn't understood, though foretold.

I also suggest dispensations causes hair splitting.
---Rod4Him on 11/17/09


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(1) God has always been a God of grace.
(2) The mystery is that the gospel is offered to the gentiles.
(3) Correct me if I misunderstood you, but "called Grace" has the implication that this "age" is one of many others.Rod4Him on 11/16/09

Rod4Him, It is one of many others.


No.(1) No one was saved by Grace in the Old Testament. They were saved by Faith. We are saved by Grace through faith in His death and resurrection.

No.(2) It was never a Mystery that Gentiles would be saved. That was given to Abraham way back in Genesis. So we know this can not be a mystery that was kept secret.

No one in the OT had Christ in them, The Mystery.
---Ralph on 11/17/09


MarkV: Your understanding of Dispensationalist is grossly wrong. A Dispensationalist knows the difference between Law and Grace. The old dispensation of law is void. No one was saved under the Law of Moses. A New dispensation we have arrived. We are now in the dispensation of the spirit. Paul most definitely uses dispensations in his teachings. Pay attention. Ralph

Paul speaks of Covenants New and Old. But you say here no one was saved under the Law of Moses. Which means everyone from Moses on down is lost. Do you really believe that?
---Samuel on 11/17/09


Ralph, Great statement, "To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

We live in the dispensation of Christ in you, called Grace."

However, I perceive implications (eisegeses)into these statements. Let me suggest.
(1) God has always been a God of grace.
(2) The mystery is that the gospel is offered to the gentiles.
(3) Correct me if I misunderstood you, but "called Grace" has the implication that this "age" is one of many others.
(4) God never delighted in "sacrifice."
(5) I love the phrase, "Christ in me the hope of glory." And that will be true for all ages to come.
---Rod4Him on 11/16/09


The Mystery Revealed:
if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery

Romans 16:25-27

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

We live in the dispensation of Christ in you, called Grace.
---Ralph on 11/16/09


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Good point Mark E.!
---Pastor_Jim on 11/16/09


mima, it general I agree with you.

However, there are differing degrees of dispensational belief. An extreme is John Hagee who believes in dual (Old Convenant and New Convenant) salvation. If you read up on it, you'll find consistent interpretation of scripture becomes a problem. How separate are the Jews from believers?

Furthermore, there is a major problem with dispensations because it believes that there will be another temple with sacrifices, among other things. One has to answer, if this is true, what is going on?

This teaching leads toward the teaching that no matter what we do we are under grace, so it doesn't matter what the believers behavior is.

Not bad except it is a form of gnosticism.
---Rod4Him on 11/16/09


I think this word is another denomination that is creating division within the body of Christ.

Those who wish to argue on both sides need to evaluate their motivations to do so. is this arguing providing truth, is it helpful, is it inspiring belief in Christ, is it necessary, and is it kind to all (THINK).

I feel that we are becoming Pharisees in this constant bickering and arguing over non-necessary things.

Encourage one another. Live out the fruits of the Spirit.
---Mark_Eaton on 11/16/09


Wow, it is amazing how far you guys will go. Do you people not know that God has given me discernment? Are you guys so dumb to think you can cover up by using a name that Kathr used all along. You guys must think all people here are stupid. Your response cannot erase the deceitfulness of Kathr no matter how many comments are given. What she did, cannot change.
If you have to go that far to speak lies and condemnations, then God have mercy on your souls. For He is not blind as most of you are. You cannot hide from an Omnipotent God. You might think you are making points but all you are doing is adding to the list of sins to your list.
---MarkV. on 11/16/09


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My belief in dispensation does not include believing in a return to the law for salvation. I do not believe the law at any time offered salvation. I believe there was a time before the coming of Jesus that the keeping of the law placed the person on whole or in reserve called "Abraham's bosom" but I certainly do not believe that the law will return.
---mima on 11/16/09


A common belief among dispensationalist is that the dispensations of law and grace represent alternative means of salvation. This belief is based, in part, on some of the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible.
---MarkV. on 11/14/09

MarkV: Your understanding of Dispensationalist is grossly wrong. A Dispensationalist knows the difference between Law and Grace. The old dispensation of law is void. No one was saved under the Law of Moses. A New dispensation we have arrived. We are now in the dispensation of the spirit. Paul most definitely uses dispensations in his teachings. Pay attention.

And please stop accusing me of being Kathr. It would appear you would do anything to avoid answering the question.
---Ralph on 11/16/09


I believe that when describing a theology like dispensationalism, we need to remember there is many forms. So not all information fits all. But in general most of what has been said is true. Scofield had different views then Charles Ryie and Charles was a bit different then Charles Cook. One guy has a whole study on dispensationalism, his name is Clarence Larken. I bought his books many years ago before I even knew what dispensationalism was. In his books dispensations look good when he posted them in picture order, it gives you a picture of where it started and where it all ends. Dividing each economy. It is the thinking within the theology that is considered false and so heretical.
---MarkV. on 11/16/09


Thanks Rod4him
Interesting , but bizarre.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/15/09


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There are many periods of time when God has dealt with His people. These are called dispensations. But in reality, they are just periods of time for mankind to learn about God.

I do not get hung up on times. I know the Word and the author of the Word. And however He wants to work out His plan is fine with me.

We are now in the age of the Gentiles. But, there will come a time when Jesus will set up His earthly reign. And in that time, there will be no sacrifice done, for Jesus was the ultimate and last sacrifice that ever needed to be made.

Where Jesus will sit in His earthly kingdom is not for me to know. But I don't think He will need a temple like the one Solomon built.
---Sandra on 11/15/09


Jim, I know you asked MarkV, but I'll let you know what I know.

Yes, dispensationalists believe that there will be a 3rd Temple, and there will be animal sacrifices.

They believe that the time of The Law was a dispensation, and that period of time ended during Acts. They believe The Law dispensation will be reinstated, which will be the Millenium, which follows The Tribulation.

Because of that distinction, they believe The Church will be raptured before that happens. They would say The Church Age needs to end, rapture, before The Law is reinstated, and YHWH again deals with the Nation of Israel.
---Rod4Him on 11/15/09


There has been two temples todate. The next temple to be built will be the temple of the Antichrist(the one in which he will stand in and declare himself to be God. At which time the Jews who have accxcepted him up until then will rebel) then in the millennial kingdom there will be a fourth temple built that temple will be built by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. And yes there will be sacrifices in that temple not as an example of things to come but as a memorial a rememberance of the things the Lord has done!!!
---mima on 11/15/09


MarkV.

Do Dispensationalist believe there would be a 3rd Temple with animal sacrifices during the Millenium or in some future era?

I heard rumors of such.
---Pastor_Jim on 11/14/09


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MarkV. thanks for the synopses.

One problem I see with dispensational systems is that when a passage in the Bible is read, it is plugged into a pigeon hole for explanation rather than reading it to see how it applies to life.
---Rod4Him on 11/14/09


Rod4him, Dispensationlism recognize between four and nine dispensations: The usual number is seven (or eight if the tribulation period is considered a separate dispensation). There is various forms of dispensationalist, but people seem to swear by it or swear at it. It has been called the key to rightly dividing the Scriptures, and actually the most dangerous heresy currently to be found within Christian circles. A common belief among dispensationalist is that the dispensations of law and grace represent alternative means of salvation. This belief is based, in part, on some of the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible.
---MarkV. on 11/14/09


There are many well known theologians and preachers that have taught dispensationism.

One of the founders of Dallas Theological
Seminary, Lewis Sperry Chafer was one of the major proponents of this concept.

Scofield known for the Scofield Bible was a dispensationalist.

It is not a minority viewpoint.

While some believe that the church replaced Israel in its promises, you will find that not all dispensationists will agree on that position or even on other positions.
---Lee1538 on 11/14/09


Rod4Him ... Those instances are disturbing, and show that such things happen.

And we need to watch for them everywhere, including in churches.

I've heard of similar things in non-denominational "Christian" groups, an secular organisations, and in ordinary families.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/14/09


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Um, it appears that a forthright item on Google titled "Edward Irving is Unnerving" may well be the final nail in the you-know-which coffin! Check it out. Jon
---Jon on 11/13/09


(1) alan, here's a couple of examples.

One church in Portland was an Assembly of God. They spoke in tongues reasonable regular on Sunday night, but with no interpretation. So I asked the "pastor" what was up. He said he knew it wasn't Biblical, but the people liked it, so he let the people do it anyway. Didn't work for me.

Another community church, I taught a high school Sunday school class. One student didn't like the content, clear conscience, her dad was an elder, so I got changed to junior high. She later got arrested for drunk driving.
---Rod4Him on 11/13/09


(2) alan,

In junior high, two students didn't like the class and complained. So I was supposed to teach something else. I quietly left, and a couple of months later found out the dad was molesting the girl. He went to jail.

The list goes on till I finally said, Ok, enough is enough. So I do have a bit of a chip on my shoulder when it comes to the institutionlized church.
---Rod4Him on 11/13/09


Yes, only according to your Saviors lips:

There is one dispensation after the fall: Torah until heaven and earth pass away!

Matthew 5:18

In this ONE Dispensation you KEEP the Torah with its ORIGINAL intent, and receive the benefits for this, including your Father's joy and favor with provision and protection!


And if you dont keep it?

Be enslaved to mans opinion of what is right, WRONG, going IN CIRCLES since the fall WITH the same great problems in society!

Ultimately you will suffer God's punishment for disobeying it now and in Judgment day.

Should we keep the all knowing Word/Torah of our Father? Or ultimately miss the mark of perfection forever?
---Paul9594 on 11/13/09


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alan, you're right again.

However, I take it as something Christ is teaching me. Among other things, the question I seem to get from the Lord is, am I going to follow Christ no matter what other people do?

I have found when I talk to "pastors," they appear intimidated and either ignore me or think that I want to take over. There is no "one another." Everything is their way or no way. They have nothing to learn.

I leave quietly rather than stirring stuff up.

I always tell myself, I'm just not mature enough to handle going to an institualized church yet.
---Rod4Him on 11/13/09


Rod4Him ... You must have been very unfortunate in the churches you have visited or belonged to
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/13/09


Yes, Dispensation (compounded, "dispense + satisfy"), means God dispenses or deals with mankind according the particular era: basically there is the past, called the old testament or old covenant dispensation of time, where the ways were of death or "an eye for an eye": then there is the present, called the New Testament or New Covenant dispensation of time, which is the currently in force ways of life and grace or a "turn the other cheek when hit and love your enemy": lastly there is the future or prophetic dispensation, where the evil and the good receive their separate eternal reward or abodes or "what one sows one finally reaps", being hell and the lake of fire or heaven and the New Jerusalem.
---Eloy on 11/13/09


Interesting Samuel, have we ever heard of a church telling folks to quit giving, they have enough.

From a dispensational point of view, Old Testament being one dispensation and New Testament being the current dispensation, the Old Covenant had a tabernacle/temple with priests which required giving of first fruits and offerings to substain the religious/civil government of Israel.

The New Covenant is a spiritual life in Christ and giving is from a relationship with Christ. Believers give from a clear grateful conscience as the Lord leads. New Testament giving, as demonstrated in Acts, was gathering assets to give to the poor.
---Rod4Him on 11/13/09


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I believe in Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection. With ref to end times, I read in the Bible and find it very clear. I do not need to join a "camp" that is man made. I do not know all of the beliefs of dispensationalists and am not going to take the time to study a man's theory. The important part of being in CHRIST is faith working through love. Focus on anything else is futile. God's will is going to happen no matter what and we can be apart of His work or debate "questionable" ideas leading to "disputes about doctrine".
---jody on 11/13/09


When in the bible they went to build the Tabernackle the people who had been delivered from slavery gave so much the leaders had to tell them to quit.

Most do not give like the widow of her last might. They give of their abudance.

But we who have been delivered from the Slavery of sin should give not just to our church but to those agencies that help feed and teach the poor of this world. Should we not give in gratitude to GOD? Unless you either do not believe in GOD, nor have anything to be grateful for nor care about others. Then you can keep the money.

True some churches and minstries should not be given money. But we need to check and support those we agree with. It is not guilt it is gratitude.
---Samuel on 11/13/09


alan, you're right.

However, the tithes and offering came after the indulgences, and people are made to feel guilty if they don't give. Now according to the "church," people can never give enough. "More more," says the church, it never has enough.
---Rod4Him on 11/13/09


Rod4Him ... That is very cynical

Indulgences were to buy for yourself or for your dead relatives a reduction in the penalty for your sins ... to pay for a quicker trip to heaven.

Offerings and tithes are not for that purpose, but are gifts back to God of some of what He has given us.

---alan8566_of_uk on 11/13/09


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atheist, you're thinking of indulgences. Now it is called, tithes and offerings.
---Rod4Him on 11/12/09


Sorry I think I have this mixed up with dispensations or condolences...
---atheist on 11/12/09


From Wikepedia:

Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition and theology[1] based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways. As a system dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby and the Brethren Movement.[2]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Church.

Short answer no.
---Samuel on 11/12/09


mima, are you just stirring the pot seeking argumentations?

One needs to define what dispensationalism is? and where does the teaching come from? and what are the results of believing it.

So, I'll let others perhaps define this and see where it goes.

There are "degrees" of this.

Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

There are some who believe in seven or more dispensations.

atheist, no, to your question.
---Rod4Him on 11/12/09


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It is another Heresy. It branched out of the Pri-Trib Heresy started by an Occultist.
---PASTOR_JIM on 11/12/09


No.

It's just another tradition and precept of men.
---Cluny on 11/12/09


Is that where you pay off a 'man of the cloth' for 'sins' so 'god' doesn't send you to 'hell'?
---atheist on 11/12/09


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