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Does God Draw People

In John 6:44 and 65 Jesus said no one could come to Him unless the Father draws them and/or or grants it to them. Wouldn't God draw and grant everyone to come to Jesus since He desires for everyone to be saved and than no one should perish?

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 ---Bob on 11/12/09
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I am happy I am one, but I also know that God didn't choose me in my mothers womb to be saved. God is love. And to choose me before I was even born and make say one of my relatives destined for hell, would be needless, senseless, cruel and unloving. And I know God is 100% love, even when he punishes.
I chose to bet on and love God because HE FIRST LOVED ME, and I believe it.
And I believe that is WHY God gave us freewill, because he wants us to love him in return freely and not like some brainless and mindless robot he created destined for heaven and made others destined for hell.
"What good would it do for a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul".
---miche3754 on 12/3/09


-- Miche :

Sister, God sent Christ b/c what God Predestinated needed to be fulfilled through us in the world : Just as we're the vessels/members of the body of Christ, His ears, mouth, hand & feet which are told & need to spread the Gospel !!

Miche, Why do you deny the Truth, just b/c you're unable to understand how Eph.1:4-6 doesn't contradict with 2 Peter 3:9 ??

You're not taking into account & noticing that 'the accepted beloved who God's Longsuffering toward which He's not Willing for any to perish' in 2 Peter 3:9 is referring to the Elect according as He hath Chosen us in Him Before The Foundation Of The World, to the praise of the Glory of His Grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved, in Eph.1:4-6.
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/3/09


Sorry but I dont believe that God chose specific people out of a world that "has all gone out of the way" to save and lets the others perish. The Bible makes it clear He has no respect of persons.

You have 5 children. All 5 have gotten into a car drunk. They have a wreck. The car is on fire. They're about to burn to death. If you had plently of time to rescue them all, do you pick 2 to save and let the other 3 burn?

God is love. How can a sinful man have greater love than a Holy God. If we would try to save all 5 dont you think God in his great love would also? Or would He save 2 so they could spit in the face of the other 3 that are doomed to burn to death?

What in the world kind of gospel is that?
---JackB on 12/3/09


MarkV, sir, your belief has its core in the fact that Gods inflicts his sovereign will over all of His creation. That is hogwash!

If that were true, Satan would not have rebelled against God, he would not have been allowed to tempt Eve, Eve would not have been allowed to bite the apple.... I mean I could go on and on.

If you're suggesting it was Gods sovereign will for man to sin and then for Him to punish man for his sin (well except for a few that He grants grace to) you have lost your mind.

How do you punish someone for doing what you will them to do?
---JackB on 12/3/09


Who are these "elect"?

For what reason did God pick these specific people out of billions to show them grace?
---JackB on 12/3/09




Miche, hello again. you said,
"IF its true, why would God tell us to go out and spread the gospel?
don't say to find the ones he already chose because AGAIN, why bother sending if God already Chose?"

He tells us to go and spread the gospel because the one's chosen (the elect) are out there lost just like everyone else. They are born in sin. They have to hear the gospel and receive the atonement through Jesus Christ.
Just because God chose us in Him does not complete act until we are born, hear the gospel, come to Christ, be overcomers, and when we die we will receive a glorified body, to be with the Lord forever.
Are you not happy you are one?
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


But MarkV is correct in sharing that God chose us in Him BEFORE Christ was even sent.
-Shawn M.T.
Again, WHY would God send us here to suffer if this is the truth?
If God did this, why bother to send his son to suffer and die IF he had already chose those who would be saved and those who would be condemned to hell before we are even born?
IF its true, why would God tell us to go out and spread the gospel?
don't say to find the ones he already chose because AGAIN, why bother sending if God already Chose?
You totally contridict 2 Pet 3:9-
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
---miche3754 on 12/3/09


Jack B, I don't believe that God picks who He wants to suffer. They suffer for their disobedience. He does nothing to them but allows them to continue the path they are on. Everyone is in that path until God comes and draws His elect out of that path. He knew who they would be from the foundation of the world.
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ"
Foreknowledge, the same word in Greek translates to "Foreordained" in v. 20. In both verses the word does not refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but it clearly means a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God.
---MarkV. on 12/2/09


MarkV, you sound as though you're one that believes God picks which Gentiles He wants to save and which He wants to suffer.

Am I reading you right? Are you Calvanist?

Rom 8:29-31 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?


What do you believe God foreknew about us that caused Him to predestinate us?
---JackB on 12/1/09


-- Miche3754 :

Sister, You're correct! We're not adopted in Christ before He was born. We're Predestinated unto adoption by Christ before He was born. It's not until after Christ has received us, that the Predestination of God's adoption has been fulfilled in us.

But MarkV is correct in sharing that God chose us in Him BEFORE Christ was even sent.


Eph.1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him Before The Foundation Of The World, that we should be Holy and without blame before Him in Love:

5 Having Predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His Will,

6 To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
---Shawn.M.T on 12/1/09




John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Those that are under Gods protection will not see wrath the wrath of God. but the wrath of man they are always in danger of.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Luke 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends, and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
---Exzucuh on 11/30/09


Markv
The Bible states:
ALL mankind is in a fallen state before being saved.
Jesus came to fix it through his death and resurrection that whosoever will can come to be saved.
ALL are born vesels of dishonor and ONLY THROUGH Christ we are recreated(reborn) to vesels of Honor(saved).
By HEARING HIS WORD, The Father draws us to salvation.
The Bible does NOT say that some are created to be saved and some not.
Faith in God comes from hearing God's word.
God says to have faith in him NOT man. If faith wasn't put in us already, why is it man can have faith in objects?
Why is it God talks about misplaced faith?
He asks us to repent(turn away) and have faith in God NOT the world. Wonder why God asks if its not true.
---miche3754 on 11/30/09


1. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess. 5:9.

Praise God there will be a RAPTURE of the CHURCH that the CHURCH was not appointed to God's WRATH, called the Day of the Lord, the Day of HIS Wrath.

WE've been saved from the WRATH TO COME!


But too, listen to Paul's words about those who refuse to share the Gospel as you do MarkV.....Here is a warning to those who stand in the way!!!

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
---kathr4453 on 11/30/09


Miche 2:
3. "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him (the anitchrist) every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb that hath been slain" Rev. 13:8.
Here then is a positive statement affirming that there are those whose names were not written in the Book of Life. Because of this, they shall render allegience to and bow down before the Antichrist.
4. "For there are certain men crept in unawarness, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our Lord into laseiviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" they were written already unto condemnation.

---MarkV. on 11/30/09


Miche, we've talked about the elect, the chosen ones from the foundation of the world. Lets look at some passages that talk about those who were not elected, or chosen. Please read carefully.
1. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" 1 Thess. 5:9.
To the impartial mind this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath. Only a blinded prejudice Christian would fail to see this.
2. "A stone of stumbling, and a Rock or offence, even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, where unto also they were appointed" 1 Peter 2:8.
Refering to the none elect who were appointed to disobedience.
---MarkV. on 11/30/09


I highly agree that God calls you. I am a living testiment to that. I strayed from Him for many years and he kust recently called me back to Him because of the problems i am going through personally. He is always there and always wants His children back.
---Kathy on 11/28/09


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You say, "If God chose us before he sent Christ, why bother to send him?" The reason is that all who are born, are born in sin due to the curse and they need Christ atonement. - markv
Well if this is true then this part is false(The way you are explaining it anyway is false)
""You say God chose man BEFORE Christ was even sent and that is not true." I didn't say it God did. "Just as He chose us (believers) in Him before the foundation of the world"-markv"
You say God chose before we were born BUT we are born in sin. If God chose, then why call ALL sinners to repent and why send Jesus to die for the sins of the entire world, why even allow the ones saved to even be born?
---miche3754 on 11/28/09


Your lineage is not important unto God. What is important to God is if you are born again.
---trey on 11/25/09
Trey, you change the statement you made, changing the subject. I said throughout all the OT MY PEOPLE refer to ISRAEL. You said MY PEOPLE refer to the elect saved TODAY. YOU, a Gentile today do not become ISRAEL or a proselyte of Israel when you get saved. YOU become a NEW CREATURE..not Jew not Gentile..

Rahab/Ruth became a proselyte, as was anyone who joined themselves to Israel. RUTH made a decision to go with Naomi.noone FORCED HER. Rahab BELIEVED the report about Israel, and God honored her faith.

If Israel was already SAVED/His Elect People, why did Jesus then need to come to Save His People ISRAEL? Matthew 2
---kathr4453 on 11/28/09


Hope your Thanksgiving was a good one.
"You say God chose man BEFORE Christ was even sent and that is not true." I didn't say it God did. "Just as He chose us (believers) in Him before the foundation of the world" Before the foundation of the world is before anything was made, and Christ was born to Mary until thousands of years later.
You say, "If God chose us before he sent Christ, why bother to send him?" The reason is that all who are born, are born in sin due to the curse and they need Christ atonement.
You say, "If how are we adopted BEFORE even being born?"
We were predestine to be adopted, and it actually becomes real when we are born again.
---MarkV. on 11/28/09


Thank you Markv! Happy Holidays to you too! I would have answered yesterday but I was in the kitchen cooking for my brothers and their wives and my dad. It was great and such a blessing.
Anyway, I am not confused about this subject just confused by what you believe it says.
I wish you would just answer my questions with straight answers. Then I would know.
I will ask again,
If God chose us before he sent Christ, why bother to send him?
If how are we adopted BEFORE even being born?
You say God chose man BEFORE Christ was even sent and that is not true. He chooses those who are in Christ to adopt, not adpot then put them in Christ.
---miche3754 on 11/27/09


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Miche, Happy Thanksgiven to you and family.
Concerning election, chosen, adoption, salvation, I don't understand where you are having the problems at.
God from all eternity decided to make a plan that included free choice. With so many people in plan, He also decided to chose, out of all those people, who He wanted to bestow His favor to. Since He is Omniscient He knew man would fall. In order to bring those whom He had chosen, who were going to be born fallen, He made a provision for them from the foundation of the world, that provision was His Son, Jesus Christ. He would die on the cross in order that those who would believe, His chosen one's, would be His children, adopted because they were born lost through the fall of Adam.
---MarkV. on 11/26/09


Miche 2 continue:
In eternity past there was only God. He was never obligated to save everyone. He could have made a plan where everyone would be save after all He is God. Why He made this plan only He knows, but it was righteous, and perfect. For someone to declare that the Creators original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. To suggest that God was taken by surprise in Eden and that He is now attempting to remedy this calamity of sin, is to degrade the Most High to the level of a finite mortal. And for someone to argue that man is a free moral agent and the determiner of his own destiny, and that therefore he has the power to checkmate his Maker, is to strip God of the attribute of Omnipotence.
---MarkV. on 11/26/09


Bob, if God didn't desire for anyone to parish He would have made it possible for no one to sin. Everyone would have been saved. He could have put angels to guard the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. To say He wants something and cannot get it because of some unknown force that is stopping Him, that who would stop Him would be greater then God. And no one or no force is greater then God.
God nowhere states He draws everyone to Himself. In fact only those whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world will be drawn to Him. No one knows who they are only God knows. They are born with the Adamic curse, and in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/26/09


kathr4453,

It seems like your getting a little hostile.???

Have you ever considered Ruth. She was a gentile. Her grandson is King David, an ancestor to the birth parents of Christ.

Have you ever considered Rachab the harlet. She was also a gentile. She is also in the lineage of Christ by the way.

Have you ever read of Father Abraham's ancestors. His father was an Amorite and his mother a Hittite. (Ezek 16:3) Oh wait those are gentiles.

In the new testament there is a ROMAN soldier who asks Christ for help with his servant. Christ said he had not found such great faith in all Israel (Luke 7:9).

Your lineage is not important unto God. What is important to God is if you are born again.
---trey on 11/25/09


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Markv,
First, thank you for your prayers I really need them.
Second, you aren't looking at that verse correctly.
There are key words you are missing or ignoring.
First- "In him"
Second- "Adoption"
If we are chosen already before were made, how can we be in Christ?
If we are chosen already before we were made, how can we be adopted by God?
What you should understand is that we must be in him- Christ- to be chosen.
We must be in him - Christ - to be adopted.
These things happen after we are born in the flesh.
Flesh then Spirit. The Bible says one comes before the other.
---miche3754 on 11/25/09


Trey, the Bible says who's God's PEOPLE ARE!


Exodus 3:10
Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

1 Chronicles 11:2
and the LORD thy God said unto thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be ruler over my people Israel
Matthew 2:6
And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Trey, nowhere is any OT reference given to Gentiles being MY PEOPLE!

BUT Trey, if you want to be MY PEOPLE ISRAEL, then PLEASE turn from YOUR WICKED WAYS and God will heal our land!!!
---kathr4453 on 11/25/09


Kathr4453,

Your definition of the Lord's people is incorrect.

First let's define Israel as it relates to God's chosen people:
Ro9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
"they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" means God's people ARE made up of Jews and Gentiles.

Ro9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Abraham had another son, Ishmael, but he was not the son of promise. God's children are the sons and daughters of promise. Those whom Christ covenanted with God to save before the foundation of the world.
---trey on 11/24/09


AND we see Israel as a whole REJECTED Jesus.

---kathr4453 on 11/24/09

You seem to be saying all thirteen Nations/Ethnos of Israel REJECTED?

I think you mean Judah/Jews rejected.

The 10 nations of the Northern House of Israel was divorced. They looked for Christ. They were the ones that recognized him. They were the woman at the well and multitudes of others. They were the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
Hosea 2:7
......, I will go and return to my first husband, for then was it better with me than now.
---Trav on 11/24/09


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Miche, again, here it is, God said it:

""Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"

Second, before I forget, I want to say that you and your family are in my prayers. You dad and mom, and daughter, and most of all you. I remember every single CN person when I pray, and hope that you get through this holidays ok. I know you are strong so hang in there and blessings and strenth to you and family.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09


See thats the thing Markv, I didn't miss it. You did and a very crucial part too. scripture says IN HIM.
Who is Him, Markv? CHRIST.
That settles the arguement right there.
Can you be in Christ BEFORE you are even born?
NOPE, you can't.
Jesus says REborn. Why does He say REborn (born again) IF you are already born into him before you are born the first time?
Jesus means we are to be born TWICE when he says born again. First in the flesh then in CHRIST.
So, how are we chosen and when, Markv? Is it US who are chosen or is it Christ who is chosen?
HMMM, ask yourself that question, markv.
We aren't chosen for anything but death UNTIL we are in Christ. By the way when are you going to answer my ?'s instead of dodging them?
---miche3754 on 11/24/09


Miche 2 continue: You also keep reminding me of what I said about election, as if I made it up but it is in Scripture and you said you have read the Bible. If you have, you must have missed all the passages about God's election. There are so many I do not see how you could have missed them unless you egnored them. And that is what many do who try to make Scripture fit their believes.
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will"
it was the good pleasure of God's will for us to be chosen from the foundation of the world. God said it.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09


Markv,
In your words please anwer these questions.

Do you believe God can save all of mankind?

How can sinners come to Christ IF God has already chosen who will be saved and who will not?

Now, to answer the blog question,
The Father draws through the WORD/the Holy Spirit. The 2 are the same.
Joel and Acts proclaim that the Spirit of God will be/was poured out on ALL flesh.
Meaning, Yes God desires ALL mankind to be saved. So, if one isn't saved it is NOT God's fault. He has already offered salvation to all. It will be one's own fault for not accepting the free gift of Salvation.

By the way Markv, How can you blaim God for not saving man when He sid he sent his son to do it?
---miche3754 on 11/24/09


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Kathr4453,

First of all, the "all men" in John 12:32" is everyone of God's elect. Let's get a couple more witnesses:
Mt1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Did you catch the "his people"? trey***

Trey, His People are ISRAEL. AND we see Israel as a whole REJECTED Jesus. Even in Acts, Peter said...Why do you resist the Holy Spirit as you always have.

Why did Jesus say..all day long I have stretched out may hands to you but you would not.

Yes Trey, He came to His Own but His own received him not.

Gentiles were never called HIS PEOPLE ..EVER!!!


My people called by my Name Is Israel.
---kathr4453 on 11/24/09


Nana, the lost cannot understand anything of God. They are spiritually dead. And not that my answer will do anything for your understanding but I will give it to you. The passages you gave Jesus was talking wasn't He? And Jesus is God right? And the Holy Spirit is God right? So where is your problem? When Jesus was talking, the Holy Spirit was right there right? Or was Jesus not God?
Who was convicting them of their sin? Jesus right? Don't you get it?
When Jesus spoke to the disciples, they many times didn't believe or understand either. The only way they would, would be for them to be born of the Spirit. That could not happen while Christ was on earth. He had to go away for the Holy Spirit to endwell the believers, that was God's plan.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09


Miche, you assume to many things not there on my answer,
"You have said that those chosen/elect were this before they were even born. This would mean that God put the HS in them before they were born. So, why would God send His son if it God had already chosen them? It would be a waste of Gods time."
It doesn't mean God put His Holy Spirit in them before they were born. He elected them unto salvation before the world began. When they are born they are born under sin just like everyone. In need of Christ atonement. They will be regenerated, will been given the gifts of faith and repentance, they will confess Christ as their Savior and they will get eternal life. They will give thanks to the Lord for having mercy on them.
---MarkV. on 11/24/09


"The lost do not have the Holy Spirit so how can they understand anything?"
MarkV.
Not quite. John spoke clearly, "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"
there was no Holy Ghost or Spirit when the Lord told the disciples to forgive 70 times 7, (no faith was given either). Luke 12:57: "Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"
How many times the Lord said, "Go and sin no more"? All those things do not need no ghost.
---Nana on 11/24/09


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Markv, stop twisting my words just because you don't understand salvation.
You have said that those chosen/elect were this before they were even born. This would mean that God put the HS in them before they were born. So, why would God send His son if it God had already chosen them? It would be a waste of Gods time.

The only thing sinners can feel from The HS IS conviction for their sins.
What do you think remorse is?
I have seen people all the time know they have done wrong but blaspeme the HS by not repenting of their sin.
Try again.

Do you think you have to Pray God out of Heaven or do you believe his spirit is always here waiting for one sinner to repent?
---miche3754 on 11/24/09


Kathr4453,

First of all, the "all men" in John 12:32" is everyone of God's elect. Let's get a couple more witnesses:
Mt1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Did you catch the "his people"?

Joh6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
This doesn't same some will come, and some will reject him.

By the way, here is a picture of all God's children:
Ro11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Your belief, or chosing has nothing to do with your salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.
---trey on 11/23/09


Miche3754,
I never said that God created them with the Holy Spirit in them. I especially never said that the Holy Ghost was asleep in them.

Eph2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Miche3754 this is a picture of you and I. We were dead in sin, and could not approach unto Chirst or God the Father.

Joh6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Also see John 14:6.

Here is what happened to us:
Php2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

We love him because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19
---trey on 11/23/09


Miche, said,
"Before we get saved the only thing the HS shows us is our sin and need to repent of it. This conviction of sin IS GOD drawing man to him!"
You say, the only thing, as if that work is meaningless. In fact without the Holy Spirit convicting a person, that person never feels his done anything wrong. For he does not believe in Christ, or God. In order for him to feel remorse for what he has done, the Spirit has to convict him. And the Spirit does not convict every single person. God has to grant that conviction to the individual.
"God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after been captured by him to do his will."
---MarkV. on 11/23/09


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Markv,
Please go back over my last post.
I didn't ask about God's logic.
You and Trey don't understand that at the Cross, Jesus fulfilled the prophesy of Joel. He gave up the Holy Ghost. While Jesus was here, he breathed on the disciples and they understood. After his death, and resurrection, he sent the Holy Ghost for all. Joel and acts say he poured it on all flesh. When ON your flesh, the Holy Spirit convicts you of sin, when you REPENT and BELIEVE Jesus, HS COMES TO LIVE IN YOU AND TEACH YOU ALL THINGS. HS doesn't LIVE in you UNTIL you REPENT and are WASHED in the blood of Christ.
Before we get saved the only thing the HS shows us is our sin and need to repent of it. This conviction of sin IS GOD drawing man to him!
---miche3754 on 11/23/09


In other words-
Holy Spirit convicts all of sin/drawing man to God.(Holy Spirit IS God, by the way).
Man repents of his sins shown to him/her BY the HS.
They believe Christ and get washed in his blood making spotless and without blemish. They are given a passover! Just like Israel in Egypt. Why are they given the passover? Because they are morked by the blood of the Lamb, Christ.
Because they are marked by Christ, the Holy Spirit comes and LIVES in them teaching them the things of God.
WHat it comes down to is the HS won't come into you until you are washed in the Blood of Christ.
YOU MUST BE WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST FIRST BEFORE RECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT!
---miche3754 on 11/23/09


Miche said:

"That is God's logic. We would never understand a thing with out the Holy Spirit to teach."

The lost do not have the Holy Spirit so how can they understand anything? They need God the Spirit to come into their lives in order for them to understand. You answered your own question again.
---MarkV. on 11/23/09


If that was true then everyone after His death is saved. - Markv

You have got to be kidding right?
And where do you fit in blasphemy of the Holy Spirit in your theory?
How do explain Christ's own words?
You don't understand salvation IS for all mankind and is accessible for all mankind thats why you make statements like this.
The Holy Spirit was poured out on ALL FLESH and convicts ALL of their sins not just the ones who receive it but all. Those who don't believe and repent AFTER being convicted of their sin by the HS are the ones who loose out. AND its trough their own stupidity not God's. God doesn't condemn man to hell, man condemns themselves for not listening and obeying God.
---miche3754 on 11/23/09


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Trey God is logical BUT not according to man's logic but GOD'S own logic.
He never created beings with the Holy Spirit already in them but just needed to wake up. God never created one destined for heaven and the other for Hell.
The only way anyone is predestined for Heaven is BY/THROUGH Christ.
Did man have Christ in them before they are born? Absolutely not.
To even be saved we must be what? WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB FIRST.
Who is the lamb? CHRIST.
How does the HS draw? BY THE WORD.
Who is the Word? THE WORD IS JESUS CHRIST.
That is God's logic. We would never understand a thing with out the Holy Spirit to teach.
---miche3754 on 11/23/09


John 12:32 is not stating that Christ draws all men to save all of them. If that was true then everyone after His death is saved. Which is false. Passages taken out of context as usual.
God the Father draws people to Himself by the Holy Spirit. If He doesn't draw you, you are left in the cold. It is God the Spirit which convicts the sinner of sin. Without the Spirit conviction, the sinner does not know he is sinning against God since he doesn't know God nor believes in Him.
---MarkV. on 11/23/09


I am not going to go deep into this. However, you need to look at other scriptures. You may begin with predestination.
---catherine on 11/22/09


Christ said:
Joh12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me


ALL Men is exactly all men....It is presumptuous to say it only means the Elect.

Hebrews 6 clearly say one can be drawn and never come to salvation!

Trey, Jesus here is saying if He be lifted up..that is the preaching of the Cross, for the preaching of the cross is the power of God unto Salvation Also stated in John 3:14 and John 8.

So who does the lifting up? We, those who are filled with the Holy Spirit do. WE preach Christ crucified and risen in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Even Paul said, God forbid I preach anything else but Christ Crucified.

Let's left UP Christ and let God do the rest.
---kathr4453 on 11/21/09


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Bobby1,
It is nothing me nor kath do but speak what God says in his word.
It is perverting the Word of God when saying that Holy Spirit is only available to the saved.
How was it you were even saved in the first place if the Holy Spirit were not accessible to you when you were in sin?
Oh, you believe the Holy Spirit was in you when God created you right?
Wrong.
what you say is not God's word.
When God ask you why you did not speak HIS truth and why did you condemn people instead of going out and trying to witness and win souls, what will you tell God?
Wait, I know,
You thought God had already chose before they were born?
---miche3754 on 11/20/09


Bobby, thanks for the advice. I should try to follow it, but...
Michelle, our God is logical. When Christ spoke he spoke in a manner that those that have ears to hear would hear. When he spoke of being born again, do you believe he is throwing all logic out the window?

Here some more scripture for you:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
God is the one speaking by the way.
Read the rest of this passage, it's speaking of the new birth. The thorn bushes being made into good trees is a picture of God's people being made good.
---trey on 11/20/09


Trey I have been following what both of this two preacher ladies teach and you are wasting your time, they turn any verse in any direction they want to make it fit what they believe, and the meaning God had for the verse disappears like magic.
---Bobby1 on 11/20/09


Trey, what you have to understand is that GOD sacrificed first.
He sent his son to die for ALL SIN.
God made the first move, now all he asks of man is for man to repent(turn away) of their evil ways and believe him.
Thats not work.
Did Ninevah, Israel and others have to repent?
YES TO ALL OF THE ABOVE.
The Holy Spirit will convict every man of their sin BUT its up to every man to repent of it. So how is that working?
How is giving up self will and picking up God's will working when it was already done Before we even believed?
You have to take all of scripture but I see you ignore that God won't live in a dirty temple which is you if you have unrepentant sin. Bible says so.
---miche3754 on 11/20/09


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John 4:23 "the hour is coming and now is when the true worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."


Who was speaking here?
---kathr4453 on 11/20/09


By the way Trey, stop trying to apply fleshly logic to the Holy Spirit.
You miss the fact that God through Christ poured out the Holy Spirit upon all of man kind- ALL FLESH. The Holy Spirit draws all man to God but they can't get there without turning from sin- REPENTING. AND they have to Believe God really did sacrifice HIS SON for their sins.
The Holy Spirit doesn't make man believe. The WORD of God speaks God's truth and that is HOW they come to believe.
THe Holy SPirit is here to convict sinners of their sins and The WORD tells them to repent and believe then the Holy Spirit Teaches the way GOD wants us to be.
---miche3754 on 11/20/09


Donna, you are responding to two women that have made up their minds they are going to use their own methods on how to interpret a verse. Any verse you bring out they will turn that verse completely around with so many words that in the end it will have a different meaning all together then one God wanted to convey.
---Bobby1 on 11/19/09


Yes, we must do a work before we are born of the spirit:
Jeremiah 4:4: "Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."
Luke 5:37: "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles, else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish."
Remember Simon? Acts 8: 21: "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."
---Nana on 11/19/09


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-miche3754,

Thanks for the response.
The problem that I see with your belief is that it relies upon us working first.

You did not choose to be born naturally, just as one does not choose to be born spiritually. It is the work of God. John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You cannot control the wind or the Spirit of God.

Is it logical that a man could do a work before he is born? No. First he is born, then he does a work.
---trey on 11/19/09


Kath4453-- Of course we go through Jesus to worship the father! But are you saying we shouldn't worship Jesus? He is God, too.
---Donna66 on 11/19/09


The drawing is effectual......
---trey on 11/18/09

The drawing is true but you can't be born again without Christ. You can't be born again without repenting/believing FIRST.
Jesus must wash you clean before the Holy Spirit will even LIVE within you.

The Spirit draws all. HS was poured out on all flesh when Jesus gave up the Ghost at the Cross. Joel/Acts witness.
Repent/believe used several times by Christ. When you repent/believe, The HS comes to live in you. You become the HS'S temple.
1 Cor. ch. 3,6,9.
No one's born again without REPENT/BELIEVE FIRST!
Matt. 3:2-8,4:17,9:13,12:41
Mark 1:15,2:17, 6:12,
Luke 3:3,5:32,11:32,13:3-5,15:7-10,24:47
& many more.
Why some ignore all this scripture?
---miche3754 on 11/19/09


God does draw his children:

Jer31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Joh6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Christ said:
Joh12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The all men is the entire elect family of God.

The drawing is effectual. Water does not draw itself out of a well, neither do men draw themselves unto God before being born again.
---trey on 11/18/09


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Is there a hierarchy here? The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin. Sounds like He too, has a role in bringing men to their Savior, doesn't He?
---Donna66 on 11/17/09

Yes Donna66, the Holy Spirit does convict of sin.

The question above, when Jesus was on earth the Father did bring to Jesus his Apostles and desciples. No cross here.


Now read John 12:23-32 John 8:32 and John 3:14-17

All of the Above are talking about lifting up of Jesus RE: The CROSS. The preaching of the Cross is the Power of God unto Salvation.

Donna66, I can't tell you how many NT scriptures say we worship/Glorify/Praise God THROUGH our Lord Jesus Christ. It was God who sent His Son. Praise God through Jesus Christ our Lord!!
---kathr4453 on 11/18/09


Donna66,
To clarify, how does Jesus tell us to pray?
He says pray to the father only but ask in Jesus name.
Jesus says anything we ask of God in his name, the Father will answer and do according to his will.
That is what Kath is talking about.
We can't get to God except through Jesus. Jesus is the door way to God.
So, we worship the Father through Christ.
And the Father draws through his Spirit BY his word.
Faith cometh from HEARING and hearing by the WORD of God.
Who is the WORD? JESUS is the WORD.(John chapter 1)
The Bible says even the devils tremble at the name of Jesus.
---miche3754 on 11/18/09


Kath4453--

//To say that today the Father drawing you to Jesus seems odd, since no one can even come to the Father or the Father overstepping the Son and approach man. We don't worship Jesus we worship God through Jesus.//

This sentence isn't clear to me. How can the Father "overstep" the Son. Is one less powerful than the Other? How do we know that the Father has given up the role He had before Jesus was resurrected?

Millions of Christians wouldn't agree that we don't worship Jesus, as they consider that they properly worship Him often.

Is there a hierarchy here? The Holy Spirit convicts people of sin. Sounds like He too, has a role in bringing men to their Savior, doesn't He?
---Donna66 on 11/17/09


John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I believe the Father drawing to Jesus was while Jesus was on earth.

HOWEVER, since Jesus has died and rose again, for the forgiveness of sin....It is the Preaching of the Cross THE GOSPEL that draw man TO THE FATHER through Jesus Christ.John 12:32

To say that today the Fahter drawing you to Jesus seems odd, since no one can even come to the Father or the Father overstepping the Son and approach man. We don't worship Jesus we worship God through Jesus.

---kathr4453 on 11/17/09


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Many are called, but few are chosen.

God is constantly drawing people. I have been a friend to people showing them God's love for years and they resisted coming to the Lord and still haven't.

I have given people the gospel and they resisted and don't believe and are still far away from Jesus.

The ones who are interested and WILLING to come to Him, God draws them, and when I meet someone like this, I disciple them until they can walk with the Lord on their own.
---Donna on 11/17/09


Altho I can't find the verse right now, the Word says that no man can come to Jesus unless I (the Father) draw him. And, it is said in the Word, that it is the will of God that none should perish but all have everlasting life.

Yes, God draws us to things. This is by the leading of the Holy Spirit. We have the choice to obey this "calling" or ignore it. But we ignore it at the peril of our lives and eternal existences.

To obey the "drawing" of God brings us life more abundantly. It is the best life.
---Sandra on 11/15/09


Jody,
God says that we are all formed as vessels of dishonor.
That he takes us who were shaped vessels of dishonor and reshapes us into vessels of honor THROUGH Christ.
Those not in CHrist are vessels of dishonor.
I agree that it is an issue of self will, though.
God loves all of his creation and wants us to remake all into vessels of honor but some are just hard hearted and won't receive the truth. The seed falls sometimes on very hard ground.
The seed is Christ and the Gospel, the ground is man's heart.
---miche3754 on 11/15/09


Mima and KarenD summed up the answer to this question nicely:) The issue revolves around free will. The bible also says that the "potter" can form some for perdition and who are we to "question the potter"? I think you have hit upon one of the mysteries that we will understand only upon the return of Jesus.
---jody on 11/14/09


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Mima,
you really took that way out of context. The verse that you gave means that blaspheme the HS IS saying it is an unclean spirit instead of the truth. That it is the Spirit of God.

Matthew 12:32 says what it is.
32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

So, the people who say we are crazy or drunk when the Holy Spirit shows in us are blaspheming the HS. Speaking against it. To not accept it or recognize it, is Blaspemy of the HS, too.
---miche3754 on 11/14/09


"And this is the commandment, that the light is come into the world, and mankind loved darkness rather than light, becasue their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, else their deeds would be exposed. But the one that does truth comes to the light, so that one's deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:19-21.
---Eloy on 11/14/09


God would draw ALL people to Himself, because He desires ALL people to be saved, and none to perish. However, people have free-will, and can choose to go after God or not. The Bible also says that narrow is the road to salvation (FEW find it), and wide is the road to distrution (MANY find it). This is because most people want their sin more than God.
---Leslie on 11/13/09


An exact definition of what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is is given in Mark 3:30,
"Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit." It says nothing about not answering the call of the Holy Spirit.
---mima on 11/13/09


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"God Is". Yet some are drawn to Christ, and others are repulsed by Christ. It depends on each persons heart whether they have compassion for Christ's sufferings or whether they have more carnal compassions for their selfish lusts. God and the Scripture command, "Harden not your hearts, but repent and thereby be saved." But like many rebellious stiff-necked and stony-hearted people they refuse the light onto their own condemnation.
---Eloy on 11/13/09


Joel 2:28-29
and Acts 2:18-19
says that God poured out his spirit on all flesh.
It was done when Christ gave the Ghost at the cross.
These 2 verses say that the Holy Spirit of God was poured out on all flesh, drawing ALL to God.
The answer based on these scripture is YES!

But many don't answer the call and commit Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
It is because they hear BUT don't believe.
Those that hear AND believe, repent of their sins and are saved.
---miche3754 on 11/13/09


Many are called, but few are chosen!!

To be among the chosen one must respond to the call.

I do not believe in the irresistible grace of five point Calvinism!!!

While witnessing to people I have seen them steadfastly refuse to answer the call.
And I have seen them suddenly answer the call the moment they recognized the call.

It is the Holy Spirit who makes the call and one of the ways people can understand and recognized if they're being called is to be quiet and listen to that inner voice that is inside all of us.
---mima on 11/13/09


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