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The Sin Of Tradition

A radio program is being prepared on the subject of the sin of formalism. What are some of the things you would mention concerning formalism as practiced in the modern-day church?

Join Our Christian Dating and Take The False Traditions Bible Quiz
 ---mima on 11/24/09
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Paul9594:

Lee's religion is based on the things the Bible doesn't say, while he ignores the things it does say. As justification for his exclusionary view of Scriptures, he relies solely on extra-biblical sources such as Bible commentaries and "Church Fathers."
---jerry6593 on 12/18/09


Im sorry Paul, but you sound like a Jew. Im not sure if thats the politically correct term to use. I hope thats not offensive to you.

I mean the Jews believe Jesus Christ was a prophet right? Just not the Messiah? You seem to use His name a lot but only to back up Old Testament practices which you seem to hold strongly to.

If Im wrong, please accept my apologies. I have yet to see a post where you explain what faith you belong to. Its possible I could have overlooked it somewhere.
It appears to me as though you avoid the question like the plague.
---JackB on 12/18/09


Lee, you know the reason I ask that question is that many have an agenda. They come on line with one purpose only. When they ask a question, it has something big behind what they began with. I sometimes see what that is and sometimes I cannot tell unless I ask more questions. It would be great if everyone could discuss Scripture. It's so much fun and so helpful. When we have our Bible studies, we go through one chapter and we make sure everyone gives what they see in that chapter that is helpful, and when we finish the chapter, we are all in one accord. Everyone working together towards the Truth. It is so wonderful. When I first started here I thought that was how it was, but I found out different.
---MarkV. on 12/17/09


Lee1538:
During my reasoning Scripture with you.
What youve done is simply deny my arguments of Scripture but not broken the argument, nor disproved my reasoning you just denied them.

You mostly bring up commentaries, not much Scripture. When you do bring up scripture Its out of context, you dont understand Law was made flesh, and abolish Him in your mind, by abolishing of His basic commandments.

Being the Word/ Law thereof, Christ spoke for for the least commandments to not be broken nor taught so!!
If you make it in heaven you will be called the least, since you break and teach against even the least commandment. Matthew 5:17-21
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


One thing that has become rather obvious is that he does not wish to identify to us what his denomination or sect is known as because if he did we would immediately recognize it as simply another legalistic cult that preaches another gospel from that which St. Paul taught.

Galatians 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09




MarkV - Pauls aim probably is to counter one of the main criticism of Sabbath keepers that there is no record whatsoever that the ancient patriarchs or their predecessors observed the Sabbath. Adventists will tell us that even Adam & Eve observed the Sabbath (Ellen White?)

One way he may gain ground is to demonstrate that Sabbath keeping is a moral law, not a ceremonial law. And we as Christians are obligated to keep moral law.

However, his 'proof' will be based only on conjecture (guesswork) and speculation (reasoning based on incomplete data).

And while the Old Cov was declared obsolete the Abrahamic cov was not, thus Genesis 26:5.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09


Paul9594 - your comments really are meaningless and prove virtually nothing.

As far as offering were concerned, there were burnt offerings, grain offerings, sin offerings, wave offerings, guilt offerings, etc. Furhermore a female animal was not always required nor is there any indication that Abel kept only sheep.

If you believe offerings reflected some kind of moral behavior, you truly are out in far left field, or maybe even out of the ballpark.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09


Lee1538:

///We may logically ASSUME that the Mt. Sinai laws were to some extent evolutionary...//

Don't need to logically ASSUME because 4 points of SCRIPTURE evidence of Abel's offering of Gen. 4:4 match instructions of Lev. 4:32-35.

Offering same as Lev. 4:32-35 proof:
1) a SHEEP:
Gen. 4:2 Abel was a keeper of SHEEP
4:4 brought of the firstlings of HIS FLOCK

2) a FEMALE:
Gen. 4:4 Abelbrought of the FIRSTLINGS
Hebrew word used 4 firstling is Bekorawh FEMININE

3) a FIRST BORN
Hebrew Bekorawh means firstborn (feminine)

4) FAT
Abelbrought of the firstlings of his flock and of THE FAT thereof

Evidence more than moral laws kept in Genesis of Mt. Sinai Lev. 4:32-35 !!
---Paul9594 on 12/15/09


Paul, you have been talking a lot on all blogs and you bring questions and more questions. what is your purpose? What is it that you are trying to proof? What is your point? That we should be under the Law? Everything you answer with is from the Old Testament, the Covenant that was for Israel. So what is your point?
Why don't you speak up and just say what it is you are trying to say to not only Lee, but many others?
---MarkV. on 12/15/09


Paul9594 //These shows laws of Mt. Sinai are in Genesis which are more than moral.

We may logically ASSUME that the Mt.Sinai laws were to some extent evolutionary in development.

In any case can you agree that the Scripture says that the Old Covenant is an obsolete Covenant (Hebrews 8:13),and that "the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith." (Gal.3:24)and that once "faith has come, we are NO LONGER under that guardian".(3:25).

Please respond to my question on this.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09




// There is more but I want to go back to the Sabbath!!

New Testament Scripture is very plain on this issue.

Romans14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

If you observe the Jewish Sabbath, then you are 'esteeming one day over others".

Also it is abundantly clear that the immediate successors of the Apostles did not teach Sabbath keeping, nor was it mandated to Gentile Christians at the Jerusalem council (Acts 15).

So you may stick a feather in your hair, dance around a fire, yell at the moon, whatever you wish to do to observe the Sabbath as such is totally optional.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09


Lee1538:
Our Question:
.any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//

Then I asked:
Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing clean and unclean animals?
You answered:
No, a basic rule of interpretation of
I say:
Good, I agree with you. So far in conclusion:
Understanding, keeping Altar offering, not moral law
Knowing distinction of clean unclean animals, not of moral law!
So Abraham being a righteous as Noah, Abel would also know these more than morals laws
These shows laws of Mt. Sinai are in Genesis which are more than moral. There is more but I want to go back to the Sabbath!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


//We may reason Romans 2:14, Galatians after we are done Genesis 26:5, limited words, also time causes this kind of focus on reasoning one Scriptures at a time!!

No, a basic rule of interpretation of a scripture is done first with was is very plain as is Romans 2:14 then proceed with something that is not plain.



---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


MakV.

You said:
No one wants anyone to go against Conscience. If you think some thing wrong, don't do it.


How about measuring what is right and wrong by the conscience of the living Torah of love: Christ? Expressed in His Torah for us.

Do you object to Christ mindset and manners in the Gospels what's wrong with walking after His likeness?

Do you object to this?
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


//Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing clean and unclean animals?

What does the knowledge of ritually clean & unclean animals have to do with morality?

Morality involves standards of personal conduct that are generally accepted as right or proper, how right or wrong something is: the rightness or wrongness of something as judged by accepted moral standards virtuous behavior: conduct that is in accord with accepted moral standards.

No, a basic rule of interpretation of scripture is done first with was is very plain as is Romans 2:14 then proceed with something that is not plain.

---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


Father, KNEW NOAH UNDERSTANDS MORE THAN NATURAL MORAL LAW! So He instructs Noah to take in the Ark:

Gen 7:2 Of EVERY CLEAN beast thou shalt take.... the male and his female, and of the beasts that ARE NOT CLEAN TWO.

After, flood, Noah offers only of every CLEAN animal, only clean animals were also offered ...IN the Law of Mt. Sinai Lev. 11 Deutoronomy 14!

Gen 8:20 ...unto Jehovah, and took of every CLEAN BEAST, and of every CLEAN bird, and offered ....

Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing clean and unclean animals?

You ommit this question, why?

Because here is another example that in Genesis more than the natural laws of morality are clearly understood kept!!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


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Lee1538, JackB:
We may reason Romans 2:14, Galatians after we are done Genesis 26:5, limited words, also time causes this kind of focus on reasoning one Scriptures at a time!!

MarkV, and others, I may get a chance to reason with you later, dont mean to ignore you but I have limited time to reason with only one maybe two bloggers.

One thing I will show how Scripture, Word, Law and The Prophets is for every born of above believer!! Christ did not called His Word, Old Testament. Shoulnt we follow our only teacher in this? Old implies it all has passed and lets go to new doctrine which is part of the problem of the apostasy of our day!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Paul9594 - There is a difference between your religious philosophy and what scripture actually states.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

If you reject what Scripture clearly states than you have to be on the wrong road. You need to first resolve what Romans 2:14-15 states before you can conclude that righteous behavior is something that has to be learned.
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


JackB:
//Scripture SHOWING Laws known/kept were more than natural laws everyone is born with!///
At first, I purposely did not attach this post TO Lee1538, it worked, now we see you are against Lee's reasoning, in his point:
...any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was ANYTHING MORE than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//
Lee1538s question above, to me!!!
Seen Lee is incorrect, Lets just try pointing him in the right direction regarding His Question!!
MY reasoning, in part:
A conscious doesnt speak at birth, only begins to speak 4 or 5 by then our conscious has been marred, flawed, because of movies, TV, video games at 5 and by possible bad family circumstances.
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Lee:
You said:
You want to believe that forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law, THEY DO NOT. They are simply LEARNED behavior that expresses worship./// ---Lee1538 12/12/09

You've admitted to altar
offerings/sacrifice, learned and NOT of MORAL LAW.

In agreement with me AND WITH OTHERS: You SEE altar offerings taught practiced in GENESIS beginning with Abel Gen. 4:4-7. His offering not of moral law, LATER reaffirmed, CODEFIED at Mt Sinai, Lev. 4:32-37!

In other words, Abel, by faith KEPT EVEN laws NOT OF MORAL LAW! REAFFIRMED IN Lev. 4:32-35 AT Mt. Sinai!
More evidence of laws of Genesis 26:5 were more than moral law!!

And then, the Sabbath, just wait, you will be amazed!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


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Lee1538:

You asked me:
DOES Scripture SHOW Laws OF GENESIS 26:5 more than naturals laws everyone is born with??//

Abel also offered clean animals Gen 4:4 as Lev. 4:32-35!!!

Noah called righteous by our Father, said to him:
Gen 7:2 Of EVERY CLEAN beast thou shalt take.... the male and his female, and of the beasts that ARE NOT CLEAN TWO.
Then Noah offers only of every CLEAN animal, only clean animals to be offered of the Law of Mt. Sinai!
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.

Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing the difference between clean and unclean animals?
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Lee1538:
You asked me:
//Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//

After my sharing of Scripture, your GOOD reasoning said:
.. forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law, THEY DO NOT. They are simply LEARNED behavior that expresses worship./// ---Lee1538 12/12/09

What Scriptures assert Laws of Genesis more than just moral law everyone is born with?
Gen 4:4 Abel, brought of the Firstlings (Firstborn) of his flock and of THE FAT thereof. And the LORD had RESPECT unto Abel and to his OFFERING: of Lev. 432-35 more than moral law shown in Genesis!!! More coming up!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


JackB -Ro 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

And what does the law require? Obedience?

But Gentiles were not given the law, how then could they be obedient to it?

4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

And where did this conscience come from?

All Gentiles had was a conscience to guide them as far as personal morality was concerned.

Ro 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.

Written on their hearts by Whom?
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


Steven G/Eloy, didn't you both ever stop to think that maybe it is you guys who have the gospel wrong? You are judging the churches to what you teach and they don't agree with you, so you go on bashing most churches. I know I am not a pastor, and with what I know, most of your answers are wrong. And I never went to Bible College and I can tell the many times Eloy has been wrong, and you too Steven. We know there is churches that teach money, and other things, but both of you make it sound like everyone is wrong but both of you.
I believe before you condemn every church you should seek God and ask Him first to get you on the right road first before you can judge what is gospel and what is not.
---MarkV. on 12/14/09


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Paul9594 //Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing the difference between clean and unclean animals?

You may not have known this but the first 5 books of the Bible (the Torah) was written by Moses & company and it was from their propective that the distinction was made between ritually clean & unclean animals.

Jesus said "... since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled? (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

And there are many other NT verses that states one may eat any kinds of food. Those that restrict what we can eat are "devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,.." 1 Tim. 4:1f

---Lee1538 on 12/13/09


//Was everyone born with this natural law of morality?

That is what Romans 2:14f states. How else could the Gentiles who did not have the law actually fulfill it? Your answer please.

Are Christians under the Old Covenant law? Not according to what the Scriptures tells us. Anyone who says we are under the Old Cov simply makes no distinction between the covenants and are really the slave children of Hagar from Mt. Sinai.Gal. 4:24f

The Jerusalem council (Acts 15) did not mandate that Gentiles observe laws that were strictly Jewish, however, they certainly assumed the Gentiles knew what moral law was.

Google Natural Law, there are multiple beliefs as to what it is.
---Lee1538 on 12/13/09


Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Sounds to me like Paul is saying in the 1st century that he was without the law at one time.

Was he not born with it as you claim?
---JackB on 12/14/09


Lee1538:

Scripture SHOWING Laws known/kept were more than naturals laws everyone is born with!

Abel also offered clean animals Gen 4:4 as Lev. 4:32-35!!!

Noah called righteous by our Father, said to him:
Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take TO THEE SEVEN AND SEVEN, the male and his female, and of the beasts that ARE NOT CLEAN TWO.
Then Noah offers only of every CLEAN animal, only clean animals to be offered of the Law of Mt. Sinai!
Gen 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto Jehovah, and took of every clean beast, and of every clean bird, and offered burnt-offerings on the altar.

Was everyone born with this natural law of morality? knowing the difference between clean and unclean animals?
---Paul9594 on 12/13/09


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//Wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name, there he shall be whether it's on the street corner, in a park, or at your favorite cafe.

I like the small prayer groups of those who go to work daily at some coffee shop.

Yes, the gathering of Christians at home has proven to be quite useful particularly for those who may have problems and need to help and support of others. Or church supports those kind of gathering. However, there can always be problems with untrained leadership.
---Lee1538 on 12/5/09


Lee1538: "...it is important that we have fellowship with other Christians."

Wherever two or more are gathered in Jesus' name, there he shall be whether it's on the street corner, in a park, or at your favorite cafe.

But the best is in your home where a small group can worship on a daily basis. This works best during these end times. It keeps christians from detouring off the stright and narrow path towards the Kingdom of God by being accountaable to each other. Do an online KJV bible search for "one another," "each other," "encourag," and "comfort."
---Steveng on 12/5/09


//Forget about "joining" another denominational "church."

Yes, you may do that if you wish, however, it is important that we have fellowship with other Christians. Denominations are not alway bad as they define what one needs believe not only doctrinally but organizationally.

A friend of mine got so discouraged with the churches he joined to the point where he just decided not to join any denomination but simply have fellowship with those who share his beliefs.
.
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


Steveng & Lee, I am not a novice to the realization of the dark times of this generation, and I also am knowledgeable that not all churches are fallen, but along the lines of what Lee has said there are still a few- though very very very few, which are doing their best to hold fast to the unadulterated gospel because they truly desire to honor God with true representation and not bring any shame nor disdain upon his holiness and his righteousness. I have sent messages to a few of their headquarters correcting some of their inacurrate doctrines. It sounds like Lee has found a New Testament gospel-preaching and Holy Spirit-filled church, and if so A-men, may your church grow and spread out as a tree planted beside the waters of life.
---Eloy on 12/5/09


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Lee1538: "My comment that if your church does not preach the gospel that one should look elsewhere stands."

Forget about "joining" another denominational "church." All they do is make christianity complex with their different doctrines, traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible.

Christianity is a 24/7 lifestyle, not a once a week pep talk dished out by denominational "churches." The two commandments spoken of by Jesus is simple - to love God and to love your neighbor. Most christians know that they must love, but don't know HOW. Do an online bible search for "one another," "each other," and encourag."
---Steveng on 12/4/09


mima, eloy = I agree with you that the gospel message is not preached in many churches today, however, I have always found a few scattered spirit-filled Christians in every church I have visited and in which I have given a presentation for my Bible society.

My comment that if your church does not preach the gospel that one should look elsewhere stands.
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


This statement by Lee,
"-**Many churches today have gatherings, but no Holy Spirit in their services: people in need of God enter the church door seeking God's helping hand, and leave the same way they entered, with no help nor care."
Is very very true, O to those who attend church services without the Holy Spirit being involved, I pray the Lord open your eyes and show you his grace and power!
---mima on 12/4/09


Lee, This indeed is the case with "Many churches today". Very very very few preach the unadulterated gospel of truth, and they do not manifest the power of the Holy Ghost with signs following. I was in one church that wasted over a half an hour talking about money to pay the organist. There was no Holy Spirit in that church, save for me, and there was no lifting up of holy hands to worship Jesus, no welcoming of the Holy Spirit to move among the body, no anointing with oil nor laying on of hands to pray for sick, no Jesus at all, nothing but talk of money money money for over a half an hour. Needless to say I got up and left, for there would be more blessings found counting the hairs on a person's head then there was in that church.
---Eloy on 12/4/09


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Eloy -**Many churches today have gatherings, but no Holy Spirit in their services: people in need of God enter the church door seeking God's helping hand, and leave the same way they entered, with no help nor care.

If that is the case with your church, we all would strongly suggest you find a church that preaches the Gospel. For in those churches, you will find the Holy Spirit working among those who will be saved.
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


a sin of tradition is taking scipture out of context and using it for self- justification because grandma or whoever learned it that way. one tradition is the replacement doctrine taught by many traditional church people.
---michael_e on 12/3/09


In the OT those of faith lived on CREDIT, looking forward to the finished work of Christ, when Christ's blood would be shed for the forgivness of sin. When people died, they went to a place called sheol aka hades. The faithful went to a place above Hades called Abraham's Bosom/Paradise. OT folks who's faith was in the coming redeemer could not enter into the presence of God or go diretly to heaven UNTIL AFTER Jesus died and shed His Blood, opening the way to God.

Today we enter the finished work of Christ and enter a NEW AND LIVING way, through the veil, that is to say His Flesh.

Hebrews 12. Their perfection came when the CREDIT CARD was paid in full, and the BLOOD was in the BANK called the spirit of just men made perfect.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


Eph. does not say you receive Grace when you have faith. That is turning the whole passage to your benefit. MarkV***

Eph does not say you receive faith when you have grace either!

Eph 2: 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved,)

Grace IS THE RISEN LIFE OF CHRIST that has QUICKENED US and raised us up together with Him! PERIOD!!

Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Paul preached CHRIST CRUCIFIED AND RISEN It's called the Gospel of GRACE!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


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lit.Gk: "This thereupon know, that in final days will be present times hard. For the people will be self-lovers, money-lovers, seducers, proud, desecrating speakers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, without compassion, slanderers, intemperate, tameless, not lovers of good, betrayers, stubborn, puffed up, pleasure-lovers rather than God-lovers, having a form of piety, but debying the power of it: and of these turn away from." II Timothy 3:1-5. Many churches today have gatherings, but no Holy Spirit in their services: people in need of God enter the church door seeking God's helping hand, and leave the same way they entered, with no help nor care.
---Eloy on 12/3/09


Why do you add to God's word?
---Steveng on 12/2/09

Steveng, ALL the sacriments of the RCC are WORKS of the FLESH. Anything of the flesh that man does is WORKS and could be inserted in that place called works.

If in fact Water Baptism is a means of Grace, starting with babies, then anyone and everyone who splashes water on themselves calling it baptism can save themselves, and would blow a hole in MarkV calvinism that says only the ELECT receive Grace. It would say only those who have received water Baptism are the elect. Grace then would be based on OUR works, and not a GIFT.



---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


Kathr, says,
"MarkV PLEASE find scripture where faith comes through grace. That is a LIE."

Acts 18:27, "And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him, and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through Grace," In order for a person to believe in the Word of God he has to have faith.
Eph. does not say you receive Grace when you have faith. That is turning the whole passage to your benefit.
"For by Grace you have been saved Through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast. get that?
It does not say we are saved by faith through Grace.
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


Kathr, I would like to hear from Shawn T, not from you. I respect Shawn's impute for he is a godly person that works for the Lord not for himself. I don't respect yours for they are always condemning in nature. Evil comes out of you everyday that is why I rebuked you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


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Markv, Faith is believing something is truth even if it is not seen.
Do we believe God sent his son to save us?
YES, this believing is faith. The word says this:

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Where does faith in God come from? From Hearing God's word. The word says this:
Romans 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Who is the word of God? John chapter 1 says Jesus is the WORD of God and he became Flesh, etc.
Believe the Word of God, scripture witnesses, don't take one verse and distort it to mean what you want it to mean. Seek the truth.
---miche3754 on 12/3/09


Faith is the gift of Grace.MarkV


MarkV That is a LIE from Hell. Please back up with Scripture.

Romans 5:15--- For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

No where does Romans 5 say that the Gift of Grace is faith that has abounded to many. The contrast is DEATH and LIFE.

Through Adam came death, through Christ came LIFE. The Gift is LIFE...and that LIFE is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 2:8

Jesus is the GIFT of LIFE, not faith.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


We find that the gospel was preached to Abraham for Paul says in Galatians 3:8,9:
"The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you. So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith" Faith comes from hearing the gospel. The others who were lost did not combine the gospel with faith. This same gospel is the one we now believe. Nothing has change. We are saved by Grace "Through faith" If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condmned" Paul's remarks at the end of Galatians 1:1-9.
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


Faith is the gift of Grace. Anyone that has faith, is because of Grace. The very inception of faith itself is assigned to Grace ("He greatly helped those who had believed through Grace" Acts 18:27. Only those who were ordained to eternal life believed (Acts 13:48) and it is God's prerogative to open the heart so that it gives heed to the gospel, (Acts 16:14) The same gospel of grace through faith was taught in the Old Testament. Nothing has change. Salvation is still by Grace through faith. "Therefore, since the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of us be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did"
---MarkV. on 12/2/09


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kathr4453: "2For if Abraham were justified by works,( water Baptism) he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God,(AKA:FAITH) and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh( Water Baptism) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,(THIS IS CALLED FAITH,NOT WORKS) his faith is counted for righteousness."

Why do you add to God's word?
---Steveng on 12/2/09


The True Circumcision are those who Worship God in the Spirit, rejoice IN Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh. Phil 3

ANY church that can do this!!! WOW!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/2/09


Formalism of being saved by faith alone, with no evidence of entering into righteousness, needs to be exposed by radio!

Justification to be saved is by faith only. Enter into salvation even righteousness by faith only.

But now because we are saved, sanctification applies, begins, by good works as evidence of the power of the Holy Spirit working within you, though your works do not save you and one cannot do complete perfect work of ALL the law ON OUR OWN, BUT ONLY UNITED TO CHRIST!

The power of the Cross begins to take us in the direction of perfect works of righteousness, of the Law/Torah of doing the teachings and instructions some in the form of commandments.

Begin WITH The TEN with faith in Christ, His power!
---Paul9594 on 12/2/09


some sins of tradition i see in the modern so called new testament church, is doing a work because our elders did them, water baptism,is a good example, sprinkling, immersion infant baptism or whatever a particular denomination chooses. Another repeating a sinners prayer for salvation, that someone makes up. we would be better off studying more and listening less to what people think. water baptism didn'nt start in the new testament, jewish priests had to be washed, plus the new testament didn't start in matt.
---michael_e on 12/2/09


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MarkV, You are changing the subject of Faith vs Works. The FAITH of Abraham, Romans 4 does not mention Grace but FAITH, and clearly states not even CIRCUMCISION was necessary when Abraham believed God.


Salvation = GRACE and is not by Water Baptism as Michael Horton believes, as does the RCC as did Calvin who still had RCC baggage.

In saying that BAPTISM is the means of GRACE, Horton confuses God's Grace and human works. Grace is defined Biblically as the demonstration of love/favor that is unearned, undeserved, and unrepayable, God imputes merit where none previously existed and declares no debt to be where one had been before. Grace is not dispensed on the basis of good works, including the good work of water baptism.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/09


Part 2 MarkV, Please post.

Here is what Paul says in Romans 4 concerning GRACE and Faith.

Yes Grace is stated in Romans 4.

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works,( water Baptism) he hath whereof to glory, but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God,(AKA:FAITH) and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4Now to him that worketh( Water Baptism) is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly,(THIS IS CALLED FAITH,NOT WORKS) his faith is counted for righteousness.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/09


Kathr, I am not going to speculate what Calvin would say if he was here or on anything you look up. My answers stand. No salvation is by faith. All salvation is by Grace "Through" faith. If you had studied reform doctrine you would know the Truth. But you haven't. You speak of many things not true at all. You can have as many opinions as you want, but when you answer you answer with lies to topics not only about Scripture but about things you have never studied just to curse what I say. You need a relationship with Christ, in order to get rid of the hate within you, in order to get on the right road. I don't have time to look-up topics from the website to find dirt as you do. I don't spend my time doing that.
---MarkV. on 12/2/09


This warning was written by a CALVINIST website:

MarkV, what would Calvin think if he were alive today?

Michael Horton with the ACE drafted a document titled "Resolutions for Roman Catholic/Evangelical Dialogue", Christians and Catholics Together, the final product was revised by J.I. Packer and copyrighted by CURE/ACE.

Signers included Michael Horton, J.I. Packer, R.C. Sproul, James Boice, Erwin Lutzer, and Kim Riddlebarger (CURE/ACE) ("Resolutions for Roman Catholic & Evangelical Dialogue," Drafted by Michael Horton,

Conclusion

Michael Horton supports ecumenical efforts with Rome. Horton and the various ACE ministries should be avoided.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/09


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Part 2

MarkV, just type in google "the false teaching of Michael Horton". Yes the Alliance is Reformed gone Deformed, that you say you are affiliated with.

And this information came off a reliable Calvinist Website I've known for years. These Calvinists actually LIKE Spurgeon.

I have the utmost respect for them. Maybe I don't agree with everything they say, but when it comes to the issue of separating from false teachers I am in 10000% agreement. Why, because God said so. That's a command we cannot ignore!

Roman Catholicism is anti-christ period and we are to come OUT OF THEM....not join hands with them..for ANY reason whatsoever.
---kathr4453 on 12/2/09


Kathr, what a bunch of lies you resort to every single day. No where do reformers believe like you that people are saved by faith, they believe they are saved by Grace through faith. But with you It just doesn't stop. If I speak of my salvation, you come down on me, if I speak of grace, if I speak of the Holy Trinity, if I speak of God, If I speak of Jesus, or Israel, if I say one word, you are there not to challenge me, but to curse whatever I say. You don't know Scripture or anything you talk about because you refuse to open your heart to the Truth. You are a crazy women, (in my opinion) in need of a doctor. And very much in need of Christ. And I say that with love, because no matter what you say, I cannot hate you. you cannot make me sin.
---MarkV. on 12/2/09


Will someone please enlighten me as to what is this "sin of formalism"?

What exactly are we talking about? Ritualism? Symbolism? Legalism? Runningoffthemouthism?

Don't we have enough isms already?

Some people like to honor God even in small ways. Dressing in their best for services, never missing a service, memorizing verses, etc. Why do we want to bring condemnation onto them?

If I choose to pray in my closet aloud on my knees, why would you condemn me if you prefer to pray seated and silently?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/1/09


Thank you MarkV for letting us know your affiliations are with.

"Quote"

Horton ("The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals") will strongly state that we are saved by FAITH ALONE. On the other hand, he states repeatedly that water baptism is the "means of grace" by which we are saved. (Not faith in Christ's death and resurrection) Romans 10:9-10.


We cannot be saved by FAITH ALONE and FAITH plus water BAPTISM at the same time. Water Baptism would be saving yourselves, a man's work. The problem is that Horton redefines Grace and Faith in keeping with Calvin's Reformed teaching rooted in Romanism, as does the ACE and all those affiliated with this Alliance.

"Unquote"
---kathr4453 on 12/1/09


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Doesn't God say to reverence HIM in everything we do?
I believe he does. So, whether formal or not, it should always be about God not man.
About lifting up God, praising him, giving him thanks for life.
Acknowledge God in all our ways.

I don't attend a denominational church. The one I attend is a non denom. Anyone who wants to come and worship God is very welcome and shown love and respect no matter what. We have festivals and invite other churches and denominations to worship with us.
It should not be about a pastor or any teacher, because without God, none would have knowledge of anything. God said if he is lifted up NOT "leaders" in the church.
---miche3754 on 12/1/09


Steveng ... "Come, know me better, alan of uk. I don't have a hostile bone in my body"

Well, you may be able to give us a more accurate definition of the quality of your attitude to denominations, but you do slam them quite a lot.

You relate your experience in America. I've not been there. If it is as you describe, it's sad.

But it's not the case here.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/1/09


Although steveng is harsh on denominational churches, he is one of the few people that seems open to all believers.
He is also one of the few people if the only one on these blogs that has ever said, "I live in southern Cal, if you are in the area, stop by." I had to paraphase that because I couldn't remember the exact quote.
My experience with denominational churches is very similar to steven's.
There is some interaction between similar churches, but they don't submit to one another. One's kingdom (church) is the pastor's, don't tread on one another's domain, seems to be an unwritten rule between churches.
---Rod4Him on 11/30/09


MarkV: "Steven G, like Alan I find your statement to be untrue."

Compared to what reference?
---Steveng on 11/30/09


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alan8566_of_uk: "Perhaps that is the case where you live ... and it could explain what to me is your extraordinary hostility to denominations"

Come, know me better, alan of uk. I don't have a hostile bone in my body. On the contrary, I'm extraordinarily easygoing and content with a simple christian lifestyle.

I have crossed the United States these past thirty or so years and have crossed paths with thousands of people belonging to denominational churches. Most wouldn't think about attending another denominational church. Some would rather die than to cross the threshold of another denomination. Some would rather travel long distances even though other denominations are nearby.
---Steveng on 11/30/09


Steven G, like Alan I find your statement to be untrue. In fact you are not aquainted with reality or have been away from the Church for too long. I myself belong to "The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals" that consist of many protestant denominations. We worship together, and study together. Different pastors teach from different denominations. All with the same goal, to teach the word of God from Scripture for the glory of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 11/30/09


mima: "sin of formalism?" My Bible defines sin as the transgression of the Law (1 Jo 3:4). Just exactly which law prohibits formalism?

I thought that those of the liberal persuasion believed that "judgmentalism was the only "sin" of concern.
---jerry6593 on 11/27/09


Steveng ... "You'll also never find a member of one denomination go to another denomination's church "

Where do you live Steveng?

That certainly is not the case here!

Perhaps that is the case where you live ... and it could explain what to me is your extraordinary hostility to denominations
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/26/09


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There is no unity among different religions. Every denominational "church" has it's strict adherance to their own traditions, ways of living, and interpretations of the bible - and their strict adherance to their time table (as in every Sunday morning services). Protestants would never allow a Catholic priest to preside over their congregation. This holds true for mixing any two religions. You'll also never find a member of one denomination go to another denomination's church - even if it's the last denomination in the world.
---Steveng on 11/25/09


It's what's *in* the form that matters (o: "rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

I know I might try to use my careful choosing of words in prayer to get God to do what I want. This would be formalism . . . to be putting my hope in my choice and form of words, rather than really be honest and humble and submissive to God, in order to please and obey Him.

How about the "sinner's prayer"? Can't this be just a form? There are ones (not all) who are trying to get people to say a form of words they want to hear copy-catted after themselves, so they can get credit.
---Bill_bila5659 on 11/25/09


I resectful disagree with Cluny's statements that Christ participated in "very formal services." These "formal" services seem to be more informal than formal. Otherwise, how did He get put on the roster to speak when He opposed their teachings?

Jesus taught in very unformal settings, such as the Sermon on the "Mount," in an informal setting in the upper room, on the seaside at Galilee, in the Judea dessert, and in the temple courtyard.

Synoguoges are set up informally, a circular pattern, and seem to be a gethering place for discussions and teachings.

The early christians were kicked out of these "formal" settings and met in homes.
---Rod4Him on 11/25/09


Curious.one, I agree with you.

I also agree with Paul when he said, "whether Christ is preached from envy or stife, I therein do rejoice and will rejoice."

Whether believers learn to know Christ and love Christ in a formal setting or an informal setting, praise God for their gettting to know and follow Christ.

A problem is that some people claim there is only one way to truely worship and honor Christ, and it must be their way or it's wrong.

Christ sees the heart.
---Rod4Him on 11/25/09


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There is of course the new, divisive formalist doctrine promoted by several on these blogs that traditional churches are all wrong, and that true CVhristianity can only be practiced outside a formal group.
---alan8566_of_uk on 11/25/09


Christ Himself not only particpated in very formal services in the Temple and synagogues, but even took leading parts in the latter.

Furthermore, He never condemned them on those grounds.

The worship of Heaven is described has having rich ceremonial and gorgeous ceremonies.

Are you going to mention these facts, mima?
---Cluny on 11/25/09


Formalism might be described as...

..."black tie" observance of protocol and gestures/rituals (as in a social club, simple 'allegiance' as opposed to 'a love sentiment' devotion). This yields no more than a POLITICAL affiliation with Jesus.

The Lord describes this as "partisanship" because it is heartless (no genuine SENTIMENT).

Phillipians 1:17

"the former proclaim Christ out of partisanship, not sincerely".

The partisan "affiliation" to Christ has always been the standard teaching in the institutions.

The Lord is "shaking" His church...

Hebrews 12:27
"in order that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Verses from RSV.
---more_excellent_way on 11/25/09


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