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Are Dead People Conscious

Are dead people conscious or unconscious?

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 ---jerry6593 on 11/29/09
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Gordon, Have you ever heard of the "U-ha-U-ha" bird?? It flies in ever decreasing circles 'till it flies down it's own throat at which time it goes U-ha,U-ha !
Reminds me of your explanation of Luke 16.
Fact#1 Luke never met Jesus!
Fact#2 No other bible writer confirms this Parable.
Fact#3 "At the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses ,the truth will be established"
Gordon, You provide fact #4 who corroborates this story? (a story so important that all of Christendom turns to for proof of "life after death")
The ball's in your court!
---1st_cliff on 12/26/09


Luke 16:19-31 is a Parable.
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables, and without a parable spake he not unto them

Mark 4:33-34 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

As the Pharisees were listening to Jesus (Luke 16:14), He was speaking in Parables so the true meaning would be known to those who had spiritual discernment. Once it is shown what is really being taught in these verses it will become more apparent.

I have put in to start a new post to discuss the deeper meaning of Luke 16:19-31.
---Gina7 on 12/26/09


"For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything" Ecc 9: 5

"Whatsover thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might, for there is no knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest" Ecc 9: 10

"His breath goes forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish" Psalm 146:4

"For the wages of sin is death (ceasing to exist) but the gift of God is eternal life (at the 2nd coming) of Jesus Christ our Lord" Romans 6:23

The dead do not live on, they sleep in the grave awaiting either the resurrection of the just at the 2nd coming 1 Thes 4:13-18, or the resurrection of the wicked 1000 years later Rev 20:5
---Gina7 on 12/26/09


Thanks for that explanation,1st_Cliff. It is certainly possible. I read the Message version this morning and it had this to say about it:

At that moment, the Temple curtain was ripped in two, top to bottom. There was an earthquake, and rocks were split in pieces. What's more, tombs were opened up, and many bodies of believers asleep in their graves were raised. (After Jesus' resurrection, they left the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.)

Either way, it's still most miraculous!
---AlwaysOn on 12/26/09


Gina7, Luke 16 is not a Parable.
---Gordon on 12/26/09
Jesus taught in Parables, in order to get people to think and use their brains. Very many times, His Parables were not understood. Jesus used Parables to convey spiritual truths that were kept from the temporary superficial listener but the spiritually awakened could understand the truth behind the story. As a result, most listeners did not comprehend Jesus message.
Jesus taught 4 Parables in a row:
1. The Lost Sheep Luke 15:3-10
2. The Prodigal Son Luke 15:11-32
3. The Unjust Steward Luke 16:1-13
4. The Rich Man and Lazarus Luke 16:19-31

There are spiritual truths being conveyed in each Parable. What are the truths being taught in #4?
---Gina7 on 12/26/09




1st Cliff, The Lord YAHUSHUA (JESUS) is the Author of Luke 16. I don't mean that He was the One Who penned it down on parchment...I mean, He is the Author of the Words of Luke 16. The Answer to what happens immediately at Death, in this case, to a lost individual, is revealed by YAHUSHUA, as recorded in Luke 16. And, as I stated previously, Luke 16 is not a Parable. And, there aren't even any preceeding words or comments by YAHUSHUA to indicate that the "Story" that He was about to relay would be a Parable. Which is something He had done, before He spoke in Parables.
---Gordon on 12/26/09


Gina7, Luke 16 is not a Parable. That's only what's commonly taught in the Church today, though, not by ALL of the Church. It is taught to be a Parable, at least in part, because of the modern Church's ignorance of Hell, their ignorance of what happens immediately at Death (hence, the reason for this Blog Question), and the ignorance of the fact that GOD can, and does, send people to Heaven and Hell and back. Preachers do not preach much about Heaven and Hell, much less Hell. Today's Church is more preoccupied with the "here and now". Too busy, WAY too busy, to concern themselves about learning about Death, Heaven, Hell and the Lake of Fire. Thus, the reason for the lack of discernment as to the fact that Luke 16 is an actual Account.
---Gordon on 12/26/09


Always on, The way I look at this episode Mat.27.52-53 is that the earthquake was so violent that it shook the bodies out of their graves..part of this story seems to be missing, the bodies were not alive, altho they may have been seen by those in the city
It looks like those that witnessed this event were the ones who "went into the city" so that others came back to see!
---1st_cliff on 12/25/09


Luke 16 .. You just have to believe that the Lord meant exactly what He said.
---Gordon 12/23/09

Luke 16 is a parable, designed to teach the concept that the Jews will not listen to anyone. In another parable, trees talk. Is that an argument in favor of talking trees? No, and neither is this parable an arguement in favor of dead going anywhere, much less to "Abraham's bosom". A parable is a made up story designed to get a point across, and the point being taught here is being totally missed.

Definition of parable:

fable: a short moral story

A fable is fiction

Definition of fable:

fabrication: a deliberately false or improbable account

The Luke 16 fable is fiction w/a moral point.
---Gina7 on 12/25/09


Moments after Yahushua died, scripture says many of the dead came back to life and went into the city.

Matthew 27:52,53 - And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I'll be honest and say that I don't know the answer to this blog question, but I find this verse quite interesting. What's most peculiar about it is that it states that they came out of their graves "after his resurrection". Yet it is, at the same time, speaking as though this happened during the earthquake that occurred when He passed away. Which was it?
---AlwaysOn on 12/23/09




Gordon, That's a first for me, I didn't know that the Lord's name was Luke???

Pattie 3447, Nowhere in scripture does it say death is separation from God ,not even Adam, it says Adam "lived" 930 years and then he "died"
Straight from the bible!
---1st_cliff on 12/23/09


If death is separation
Separation from God... is death (Adam/Eden)
When the Spirit is separated from the body is death.

Between dead people and the living there is no consciousness

Between the dead and God there is consciousness because God can communicate with them at will but the dead have no link/consciousness with us the living.

At the resurrection, we will all be able to communicate again because we will have the same kind of bodies and the earthly barriers would have been removed
---patie3447 on 12/23/09


Luke 16 answers the above question adequately. You just have to believe that the Lord meant exactly what He said.
---Gordon on 12/23/09


Samuel: Exactly!
---jerry6593 on 12/19/09


Why do most who believe that a conscious spirit transcends the death of the body still believe that they are unconscious when asleep? It seems logical that if your consciousness can survive death, surely it could survive a few hours of sleep.
jerry6593

I think you need to reword this just a little. The dead are uncounsious since they are dead which is like being asleeep. But this sleep can only be ended by GOD. When we wake up again at the resurrection.

In Matthew 22 JESUS explains about the resurrection and the dead. No mention of being in heaven or hell at death.
---Samuel on 12/18/09


Why do most who believe that a conscious spirit transcends the death of the body still believe that they are unconscious when asleep? It seems logical that if your consciousness can survive death, surely it could survive a few hours of sleep.
---jerry6593 on 12/17/09


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larry: "Jerry, dude, you answered your own question?"

Thanks for noticing.
---jerry6593 on 12/16/09


Jerry, dude, you answered your own question?

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
---jerry6593 on 12/13/09
---larry on 12/15/09


Jerry6953, I paint with a rather large brush, I call (for want of a better name) all Hell-fire preachers .,immortal soul believers and those that have a 3 headed god--fundamentalists. But I did say "most" not all!
---1st_cliff on 12/15/09


1st Cliff: "James, Your theology is the same as most fundamentalists IE The human soul is the personality living in a fleshy body that escapes at death!"

I am indeed a fundamentalist, and I don't believe in spiritualism. The concept of a "good" self-existent spirit living (or, rather, trapped) inside a "bad" body came to us from Greek paganism - not from the Bible.
---jerry6593 on 12/14/09


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Some may not believe this, but every person is a spirit living inside of a physical body. We all have a personality, which can be called a soul.
*****

True Christians would not believe this because it is unbiblical

These ideas come from pagan philosophers of hundreds of years ago
---Rhonda on 12/13/09


James, Your theology is the same as most fundamentalists IE The human soul is the personality living in a fleshy body that escapes at death!
How do you explain "Mental Retardation", "Autism", "Schizophrenia", "Bi polar" etc.. are these "soul defects"???
What makes you "tic" is your brain, these are "brain functions"
Your brain does not survive at death.(ask any doctor)
The only thing escaping your body at death is your breath (pneuma translated spirit, air, wind, breath)Look it up!
---1st_cliff on 12/13/09


James: I don't believe it because it is at variance with the Word of God. No scripture says that "every person is a spirit living inside of a physical body." To the contrary, it says that every person consists of a body AND God's breath of life. Without the combination of BOTH ingredients, there is no person.

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish.
---jerry6593 on 12/13/09


Some may not believe this, but every person is a spirit living inside of a physical body. We all have a personality, which can be called a soul.

So there you have it. Spirit, body and soul.

When a person dies, they leave their body and have to do someplace.

Which brings us to why we are all here. We are all here to make a choice. Jesus or Satan.
---James on 12/12/09


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Light bulb plus electricity = light
Body plus breathe of life = living soul

Do you still have light when the electricity is turned off?

Do you still have a living soul when the breathe of life ceases?

No to both questions.

Light does not exist floating around, neither does a living soul. Life only exists when the body and breath of life are together.
---Gina7 on 12/12/09


JESUS stated the dead will be resurrected in Matthew not that they are awake in heaven.

Mat 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,


Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
---Samuel on 12/11/09


a theist: It is apparent that you have very little to occupy your mind. May I suggest that you take up Bible reading?
---jerry6593 on 12/10/09


Jesus said, Matt 22:29-32. "You are mistaken not understanding the scriptures, or the power of God....I am the God of Abraham, and the God Isaac, and the God of Jacob...God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

I'm sticking with Jesus on this topic.
---Rod4Him on 12/9/09


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Rhoda: When did Jesus say his parables weren't true?
****

well then if the verse I chose doesn't help you maybe you should look to where did Christ say his parables were true?

when you can FIND that we can discuss until then you are simply following mortal men who twisted scripture so they can regurgitate Dante's poem in their colorful hell-fire sermons each week by using this story by Christ as their "proof"

when you CAREFULLY read the parable you must add the idea about hell and heaven because it SIMPLY is not there
---Rhonda on 12/9/09


The consious soul leaves the body at death is what some teach. But the Bible never says that. The teaching was taught and is taught by many pagan groups but the Bible says that we are a soul or a living being.

KJV Gen 2:7And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.


NKJV - Gen 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living being.
---Samuel on 12/9/09


Jerry,

"Ecc 9:5 ... THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING!"


"There may have been a few times that abortion would have been a good idea. Hitler would have been one. Obama would have been another - and he supports it."---This appears to be a perfect example of 'knowing not anything'.

So you must be dead. Therefore the dead must appear to be alive and conscious as demonstrated by your existence.

That is a creepy thought...

(This is where Jerry the logician, denigerates atheist for a failure in logic.)

Please do so. I am developing a theory of Jerryantics. Your response will serve as a proof.
---atheist on 12/9/09


Leon: I'll stick with the bible version:

Ecc 9:5 ... THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING!
---jerry6593 on 12/8/09


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now 60 years of age I have known many living who make me wonder.the dead are dead they are DEAD
---tom2 on 12/8/09


No Jerry, the density is all yours! You repeatedly fail to comprehend the biblical facts before you. Were it not for the breath of God your physical body wouldn't have consciousness (life, a soul). When you die, your conscious soul is going to leave your body (for where ever) & your unconscious body will go back to dust. I think the thought you'll be consciously alive somewhere after death really scares you, doesn't it? It should!!! :)

Continue chasing your tail if it pleases you. Or, you can hopefully repent before God, receive his truth & be set free from the bondage of sin that has you on a collision course with hell.

We have nothing further to discuss on the matter.
---Leon on 12/7/09


Leon: How dense can you get? You give the scripture that says a dust body is given the breath of life and it becomes a conscious being. But then you turn around and claim that the breath of life IS that very same conscious being. Were you absent the day they discussed logic?

I'll try to get even more elementary. A box is made of boards and nails put together. When the nails are removed, what happens to the box? Is the box now the nails? That's what your twisted logic would have us believe.
---jerry6593 on 12/7/09


That's the best you got? It's okay Cliff, you can mock me to no avail. I sincerely believe you when you say you don't know. That "truth" in itself speaks volumes about your perilous lack of understanding.

Because you're so wrapped up in yourself, you don't want to face the real facts. Your self-agrandizing, erroneous rebutts (contradictions) are all you want to hear.
That's pitiously sad. However, if that's the way you want it, so be it! The day of reckoning is coming sooner than you think bud. :)
---Leon on 12/6/09


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Leon, I point out a few "facts" and you go ballistic >....That's quite a tirade, No real answers, just Kaapoww!
BTW, I'm more than familiar with Gods "Purposes" (He doesn't "plan" like humans) I don't know how you can study the bible when all your ideas are "preconceived!"
---1st_cliff on 12/6/09


Rhoda: When did Jesus say his parables weren't true? Don't isolate Mark 4:12 & try to religiously make it walk on all fours. Read the entire chapter to get the right context. Jesus basically said there were many gathered whose hearts weren't right before God, so his teaching wasn't for them. Perhaps some later repented of their sin & were able to fully receive the word of God. For his true followers, Jesus reveals (explains) the literal meaning of his parables.

Jerry! :) What do you believe the breath of God is? Does it produces consciousness in the body? What is the consciousness called in the Bible -- a living soul? A dead body is unconscious. Does that mean the breath of God (conscious soul) has departed?
---Leon on 12/6/09


Cliff: Your problem is you lack faith (Heb. 11:6) in God. You don't believe God drove (passionately inspired -- 2 Tim. 3:16-17) men & women to accurately remember, write & compile Scripture --His Bible.

Unfortunately, your heart is hardened by the enemy of your soul. That's why you can't hear or see God's plan of salvation & His overall control in the matter. You are carnal & unjust, like the people who were gathered before Jesus & saw his teachings/parables as foolishness.(Ro. 1:16-17) Don't fool yourself, God is not mocked! (Gal. 6:7)

Imagination has nothing to do with it. It's all about God's divine inspiration!

REPENT!!! I'm not "your" enemy. :)
---Leon on 12/6/09


"According to the Bible (Gen. 2:7), the "soul" has two components..." Jerry, 12/6

Actually, that's not true Jerry. God first made man's "body" from the dust of the ground. The body was unconscious so God, secondly, breathed into Adam's nostrils (his body) the breath of life & only "then" (not prior to) did Adam became a conscious, LIVING SOUL.
---Leon on 12/6/09


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Leon:The key to your post is "could've"
Can you imagine standing in court before a judge saying "it could've"??
Luke "could've" been backed up by one of the credible witnesses like Matthew, John, Peter, James all who wrote scripture,but didn't. Especially on such a "weighty" subject that fundamentalists, cite as "Proof" of the dead still living!
It also "could've" been taken from Greek Mythology, Couldn't it?
---1st_cliff on 12/6/09


Leon: "The conscious soul leaves (is spirited out of) the physical body at death"

This may well be your belief, but it is definitely NOT what the Bible teaches. According to the Bible (Gen 2:7), the "soul" has two components, dust (body) and breath of life (life-giving force). It is only the breath of life that returns to God at death, and thus it cannot be the entire soul. Further, the Bible clearly states that the state of the mind in death is unconscious (Ecc 9:5), and is called a sleep many times. Did Lazarus have any tales of the things he had seen while dead?

So you actually believe that billions of people can fit on a man's chest, and that people in heaven are in contact with people roasting in hell?
---jerry6593 on 12/6/09


"Do you believe...the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as literal?" Jerry, 12/5

Yes, from God's All-Knowing point of view, Jesus told it as such -- didn't He? Why would He make up such a gravely serious story about the end destination of two men if it weren't true?
*****

YES CHRIST DID as explained in Mark 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive, and hearing they may hear, and not understand, lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them

RELIGION teaches parables as TRUTH to create chaos pollute and attempt to discredit Christs very own words

parables have a HIDDEN meaning they are NOT literal PER Christ
---Rhonda on 12/5/09


Cliff: Let's not be so hasty to throw the baby out with the bath water! :) True, Luke probably never met Jesus. Luke was probably from Antioch where he met Paul & Barnabas at the beginning of Paul's ministry in the church there.

Luke had ample opportunity to interview living "eyewitnesses" to Jesus' teachings. Yes, more than two living "eyewitnesses" were of the 12 disciples who were with Jesus most everywhere he went. Also, Jesus' mother Mary was a very credible "eyewitness," as was Mary Magdalene, Joanna the wife of Herod's steward, & other women followers of Jesus (Lk 8:3). All could've given Luke accurately quoted reminiscences regarding Jesus' parables, etc.
---Leon on 12/6/09


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Leon, **Jesus told it as such....didn't he ?"**???
How do you know, Leon???
Luke is the only one recording this story,quoting Jesus, whom he never met?? A Greek Gentile non-Apostle!
**You don't want to understand the facts**
These are the "facts" Leon, correct me if I'm wrong!
Scripture says "at the mouth of 2( as in two) witnesses a matter will be established" Right???
---1st_cliff on 12/5/09


ALL who ever lived and died are in hell (aka the grave in the dirt hence ashes to ashes dust to dust) ...per scripture King David is in hell waiting resurrection

hell doesn't have street address within core of earth as superstitious pagans believe and counterfeit christianity adopted through teachings of Dante's hell-fire

per scripture the dead are dead - they know nothing - not even God and their thoughts perish yet religious christianity boldly contradicts plain scripture teaching peoples thoughts really didn't perish they are really alive in either heaven or hell contradicting yet another scripture 1Corin 15 ...instead teaching mini-resurrections and judgments every day
---Rhonda on 12/5/09


"Do you believe...the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as literal?" Jerry, 12/5

Yes, from God's All-Knowing point of view, Jesus told it as such -- didn't He? Why would He make up such a gravely serious story about the end destination of two men if it weren't true?

Please don't presume you know what I believe. It gives you an inappropriately false appearance of omniscience. :)

You don't want to understand the facts: The conscious soul leaves (is spirited out of) the physical body at death leaving the body dead (unconscious). When Jesus called Lazarus back from the dead, God the Father, who had received his consciously alive soul, returned it to Lazarus' dead (unconscious) body. It's called a miracle!
---Leon on 12/5/09


Leon:

"Jerry: Who is right, you or Jesus? Did Jesus know what he was talking about (Lk. 16:19-21)?"
---Leon on 12/4/09

Joh 11:11,14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth, but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. .... Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Who is right, you or Jesus? Did Jesus know what he was talking about?

Do you believe that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal? If you do, then you believe that billions of people can fit on a man's chest, that there is open communication between heaven and hell, and that a single drop of water can quench thirst.
---jerry6593 on 12/5/09


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"Such a concept is not found in the Bible." 12/3

Jerry: Who is right, you or Jesus? Did Jesus know what he was talking about (Lk. 16:19-21)?
---Leon on 12/4/09


Leon, you're dead on about one thing ,I am a "non-conformist"
As I have said many times in the past, "being of the majority opinion is not my strong suit"
When the men in white coats come to take you back home, give my regards to Napoleon
He probably knows all about "visions"!
Have a nice day ,Leon, I'm not your enemy!
---1st_cliff on 12/3/09


Leon,

Right.

You can't argue with someone like me who hasn't had any visions, and knows how to separate his dreams from his waking world.

And because of that, I cannot find it credible that the reported 'visions' of people two thousand years dead are anything but fantasy.

Right. I am the one cognitively impaired.

You are the one who believes in the craziness of 'John' who claimed to write Revelations. How do you know he wasn't really whacked out on some bad wine?
---atheist on 12/3/09


Cliff: You & that other nonconformist fella are living proof there's no possibility of rationally reasoning with the severely cognitively impaired. Play nice with what marbles you may have left. Adios! :)
---Leon on 12/3/09


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Ecc 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished, neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The dead do not continue to live, think, travel or worship as a spirit or in any other form. Such a concept is not found in the Bible.
---jerry6593 on 12/3/09


Most Christians and Pagans believe in a type of immortal soul.

But some Christians are Conditinalists. We believe that when a person dies they are asleep a term the Bible uses for a dead person. We beieve that we are a soul as Genesis 2,7 states in the KJV or a living being as many modern translations state it. Our Spirit which is what makes us alive goes back to GOD at death. But no Bible verse speaks of the Spirit or Breath as it is sometime translated as being a conscious being on it's own.

So since the gift of GOD is eternal life. Those who do not recieve it will die. We all await the resurrection from the dead.
---Samuel on 12/2/09


Leon,

After all you supercilious presumptious and holy-than-thou statements you freely offer up, the best spiritual observation you can make is:


"...your thinkin' is stinkin'!"

Gawd be with you...!

---atheist on 12/2/09


Atheist: See, that's what I'm talking about!
Your relentless persistence to hop down the wrong path, despite the ever present (in your face) facts showing you it's not wise to do so, only further makes my point. Reality isn't, as you want it to be, i.e., out of mind therefore out of sight (doesn't exist). YES, to think so is crazy & you're in desperate need of having your mind renewed because your thinkin' is stinkin'! :)
---Leon on 12/2/09


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Leon, Your "enlightened" answer was no different than mine!
"Divinely inspired sighting" of events that were yet to happen.
Rev .1.1. "That must soon take place" meaning it's future so the characters he saw were not "live" . Which takes us back to the original subject "are the dead alive?" Obviously NOT!
So all your "spiritual" insight is so much hot air! (a legend in your own mind)
---1st_cliff on 12/2/09


Leon,

So tell me...

Are all people who believe in 'god' and have visions not crazy, or are some crazy? How do you tell the difference? Would you really know if you were crazy or not?
---atheist on 12/2/09


"I believe I'm no crazier than you." Atheist, 12/1

By your admission, you are a nonconformist (atheist) concerning the reality & things of God. You ( & Cliff) think more highly of your own opinions about God ( & His apostles, etc.) even though you guys have no infinite enlightenment/insight to accurately support such thoughts.

Your attitude indicates,YES, you are crazier than I am. :) You seek not to be transformed by the renewing of your mind... (Ro. 12:2-3) I desire not to attack, but to help raise (awaken) your conscious from it's unhealthy, comatose unconscious limbo.

Cliff: Concerning John, "vision" means a Devinely inspired sighting. What John saw, God caused him to see!
---Leon on 12/2/09


Leon, Mr. consciously alive, instead of throwing stones, give me your "enlightened" definition of "vision"
---1st_cliff on 12/1/09


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Christians believe that upon death, believers immediately go into God's presence, and unbelievers go to Hell, Matthew 17:1-9 / Mark 9:2-10 / Luke 9:28-36, Luke 16:22-31, 23:43, John 14:2-3, 23, 2Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23 / Numbers 16:30-33. Job 14:21-22, Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, demonstrates that the dead have no knowledge of earthly affairs, but both those in Heaven, and those in Hell, know of their present abode. Acts 2:29-35, David had not ascended when he wrote this as he was still living on the earth. Jesus wasn't 'soul-sleeping' for the three days before his resurrection. We don't either!
---Glenn on 12/1/09


Leon,

I asked you some pretty simple and straightforward questions and rather than civilly attempting to answer you attack.

But to answer your question, I believe I am no crazier than you. I just don't believe in the very old and possibly inaccurate reported visions of dead people, or those alive for that matter...
---atheist on 12/1/09


Cliff, Atheist: You guys have so many "issues" (euphemistically speaking) it's practically impossible for either of you to really understand the Bible. You're as happy as a tick on a dog to be blind to reality.

Atheist: Is is possible the people you think are crazy (not in their right mind) are really sane & you're the one who is really way out on a limb (looney toon), & don't know it? Guys like you & Cliff rant from one subject to the next & don't seem to be really interested in rational answers. You just want to win an argument based on what you believe no matter what. That's sick!

Cliff: As always, you talk real loud & say nothing of real value, i.e., you are consciously dead in your sin.
---Leon on 12/1/09


Leon,

I find it curious that no new revelations or prophecies are recognized as legitimate. Only those having visions or dreams a couple of thousand years ago are considered to be hearing from 'god'. Why is that? In fact most people would think anyone claiming such was crazy. So why are people in the past not consdiered crazy also?

And way isn't it possible that the book of revelation was included by mistake? Or any other book for that matter? How do you know that something didn't get slippe in by mistake?
---atheis on 11/30/09


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Leon,I can't believe that you don't know what a vision is.
Just like looking at your big flat screen TV. If you catch a movie of Elvis singing and strumming, you gonna say "hey Elvis is alive ,I just saw him"???
Vision is the same thing,characters are not necessarily alive!
Get the picture???? Yooo Hooo Leon! hello!
---1st_cliff on 11/30/09


Dead people are Dead. Dead means: the permanent end of all life functions in an organism or part of an organism,

If you understand how we as human beings are made, then you will understand that when you die, your body goes to the grave and is dead, but your spirit either ascends to heaven or descends to hell.

The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. God breathed His Spirit into Adam AFTER he formed him of dust, amen? So without the Spirit breathing life into man, he is just a dead body. Hope I'm explaning this right.
---Donna on 11/30/09


God's word came to Abram in a vision, God spoke to Israel (Jacob) in visions, the prophets Nathan, Zechariah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc., all received visions from God,, the apostles Peter, Paul* & John, disciples Ananias & Cornelius all received visions from God.

*I envision you see red at the mention of his name Cliff. :)

Atheist, Your "interpretation" is you think John was crazy. So, were the above reference people also crazy?

Cliff, do you get the picture or will God have to draw you one at the White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15)?

"How do you cast Hell into the Lake of Fire?" Atheist, 11/29

I don't. :) GOD DOES!!!
---Leon on 11/30/09


I wouldn't try to interpret any of it.

As far as the Book of Revelations though, I think it is pretty clear that "John" was crazy and/or over medicated.

If Revelations had been left out of the final version of the 'Bible', as many through the centuries thought it should, Christianity might be a less confusing and rational religion. You wouldn' have a new and more accurate prediction of the end of the world every few years for one thing.

But anyway, how do you cast Hell into the Lake of Fire?
---atheist on 11/29/09


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Yes, Revelation 20:11-15 talks about "the dead who were in" the sea, and "the dead" who were delivered up by "Death and Hades". And we have the martyrs under the altar who spoke > Revelation 6:9-11. So, it can be that at least these martyrs can be dead but speaking, but from under the altar > it does not say they are now dancing before the Lord Jesus. But they are told to *rest* . . . "a little longer". So, I can see the dead in Christ do not have to stay where their bodies have gone. And 1 Thessalonians 4:14 says, "God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." When you sleep you can be conscious, at times, or unconscious. Can martyrs talk in their sleep (o:
---Bill_bila5659 on 11/29/09


Leon, I thought you were better educated than that!
John saw a "vision" do I have to draw you a picture????
---1st_cliff on 11/29/09


Cliff & Atheist: How would you guys interpret Revelation 20:11-15?
---Leon on 11/29/09


Are unconscious people dead?

Are conscious people dead but only think they are not dead?

Is my pet rock not dead but conscious?

Mysteries of the universe....
---atheist on 11/29/09


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Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do,do it with thy might,for there is no work,nor device,nor knowledge,nor wisdom,in the grave,whither thou goest. I think this shows well a person is dead in all aspects of his physical being when he dies. The spirit of life goes back to God who gave it,without it we are an empty shell no different than any other organic creature,Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread,until you return unto the ground,for out of it were you taken,for dust you are,and unto dust you shall return.
---Darlene_1 on 11/29/09


A physically dead body is unconscious because it's devoid of soul/spirit.That is because the soul/spirit has departed from it. However, Jesus said the soul/spirit of a physically dead person is very much conscious after death. (Lk. 16:19-31)
---Leon on 11/29/09


When the jailer asked,"Sirs what must I do to be saved"(Acts 16-30) they answered,"And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house"(Acts 16-31) The above answer given by the apostles makes no reference at all to how one lives or lived.
How one lives has to do with rewards, not salvation because salvation is freely given to all who will call on the name of the Lord to be saved.
---mima on 11/29/09


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