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What Is Righteousness

What is righteousness according to the Word? Should we be after it or just faith and grace?

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 ---Paul9594 on 12/1/09
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that has to be "ONE" if not the best question i have ever seen on this network

seeing it is a gosple question and has everthing to do with the gospel of God's grace in CHRIST

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you.
look forward to tell you the message your asking about/ not room on this post
---steven-rem7000 on 12/7/09


Lee, I drive defensively. Abd there are policemen whom break the law themself in lying and indeed making up their own laws. And each soul will be held accountable, for the sinful lawman will go to hell just as equally and even more quickly as the lawbreaker goes to hell for their sin. Wearing a badge gives none the right to break the law they are suppose to be upholding, and there is a lake a fire for those whom are hired to enforce righteousness, but instead pervert it.
---Eloy on 12/7/09


Oh now Lee Im sure thats one of those verses thats not directed as CHristians.. hehe
---JackB on 12/7/09


What Scripture Authority shows law of Genesis 26:5 is same as MT. sinai?

I was afraid you would ask that.

Since you don't have much understanding of the Torah meaning teaching instructions of our Father. And not law as men think.

I will take it easy on you, and begin with the Sabbath, for your sake, for starters, I'll use the New Testament.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said... The sabbath was
made for :man, (not sabbath was made for Jew)

Since the Sabbath was made for man. Do you think He would keep it from Him all the way to the Law of Moses?

I will not continue on monologue, Please answer my questions.



---Paul9594 on 12/7/09


Good one, Lee.

Our own pastor would not allow african americans in the church for 20 years. He said he broke down crying when the Lord finally touched his heart on the pulpit one Sunday morning convicting him of that sin.

Twenty years! He was convinced all that time that his hatred of black people in the name of Christ was Gods will.

Christians DO sin. God never gives up on us.
---JackB on 12/7/09




JackB: I will not continue reasoning Scriptures with you on monologue.

Matthew 19:16-21

16 And lo, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall
I do, that I MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

17 And he said to him, Why askest thou me concerning what is the good? One is the :good: but if thou wouldest enter into the life, keep the commandments.

He also said to the one asking ... follow me.

Christ doesn't say it's all about just faith as you teach.

He said keep commandments to enter life, and then he said "follow Him".

He doesn't say to follow him ....up to a point as some teach.

Your answer?
Do you consent to Christ's teaching to ETERNAL LIFE, in this passage?
---Paul9594 on 12/7/09


Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Paul, Eloy, Jerry - does this verse apply to Christians, including yourselves?
---Lee1538 on 12/7/09


I sinned terribly yesterday while driving down the road. I was doing 47 mph in a 45 mph zone. The cop behind me merely passed me up and went his way.

As breaking the laws of the land is sinful, I keep wondering if our 'sinless' friends ever drive? Speak up Jerry, Eloy & Paul.

They sound like one of those jokes we sometimes hear in the locker room.
---Lee1538 on 12/7/09


Paul if 5 verses contradict 1000, which ones are most likely misinterpreted?

If we dont sin when we are born of God, then why is it necessary for God to instruct us how to live for Him in thousands of other verses in the New Testament?

The Holy Spirit in us is perfect. Our mind and body are not.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost,
---JackB on 12/7/09


Righteousness is obedience to Jesus and his Commandments. Yes, put Christ and his righteousness first, and then all the other things may be added onto you: for when you clean the inside of your cup first, then the ouside may be clean.
---Eloy on 12/7/09




Paul9594 - God deals with His creation in terms of covenants. The covenant God made with Abraham did not contain any of the provisions and specifications that the covenant God made with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai.

Suggest you find out what constitutes a covenant and what covenants are in the bible and how they differ.
---Lee1538 on 12/6/09


My goodness, dont people read the whole Bible anymore or do they just pick out a few verses to start their own religion?

Rev 14:3,4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Sorry ladies but Paul says youre all going to hell.

Paul I hope you havent lost your virginity

Excuse me I have to go tell my mother goodbye
---JackB on 12/7/09


Paul you gotta use that thing on your shoulders sometimes. Just because we're sinners doesnt mean we lack common sense.

First off: the rich man lied to Christs face about keeping the Law. Everyone is a sinner. Noone is righteous. Do you think Christ believed that man?
Psalms 14, Psalms 53, Romans 3.

The disciples were amazed what Christ was saying because its not possible for us to follow Gods laws perfectly.

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them,......(here it comes)....

With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.



---JackB on 12/7/09


Paul,

Read Romans chapter 7 and you will understand how a man who is born of God has stuggles and sometimes does things that he does not want to do.

And no that wasnt before Pauls conversion...

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
---JackB on 12/7/09


Paul9594 //Do you have SCRIPTURE AUTHORITY to assert GENESIS 26:5 IS NOT THE LAW of our Father, OF MT. SINAI?

Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality everyone is born with?

If the law spoken of in these verses were the Mosaic law given some 400 to 500 years later, then certainly we would see something about it in the account of Abraham's successors - Isaac and Jacob but there is not even a hint of that.

Your problem is one of rightfully handling the Word of Truth but you are reading things into the scripture that just is not there.


---Lee1538 on 12/6/09


Lee1538:

Regarding Paul the Apostle:

Acts 17:17

So he REASONED in the synagogue with Jews and the DEVOUT persons, and in the MARKETPLACE every day with them that met him.

Let's follow Paul's example:


Genesis 26:5
Abraham obeyed MY MY MY VOICE, and KEPT MY MY MY charge, MY MY MY commandments,MY MY statues and MY MY laws.


Do you have SCRIPTURE AUTHORITY to assert GENESIS 26:5 IS NOT THE LAW of our Father, OF MT. SINAI?
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


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Brother ShawnM.T.!

You also maybe one of the 144,000 to help RESTORE the body of Christ into a faith with power by grace

Rom 9:31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at [that] law.

Paul calls the Law of RIGHTOUSNESS, have some learned the law is past and bondage due to misinterpretations, bad translations?

How does righteousness with faith in Christ a thing of the past? Romans 3:31


Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling,

Law of righteousness is TO BE sought by faith in Christ to empower you to walk after the His commandments.
HAVE SOME lied to you for a time?
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


Is there anymore who understand the law of rightouness and TRUTH?

ISN'T THE LAW SPIRITUAL?


AND WHEN IS IT A CURSE?

GOD IS LOOKING TO AND FROM ON THE EARTH FOR THE 144,000!


GENTILEs transformed WILL BE INCLUDED!

More on why 144,000 includes...Gentile converts!!!
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


JackB:

Did you miss the verse right after 1 John 1:8?

9 If we confess our :sins, he is faithful and righteous to FORGIVE us our :sins, and to CLEANSE us from all UNRIGHTOUSNESS.


Will you give us the explanation to 1 John 3:4-9 or do You ignore it?
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


JackB:

I've answered your questions, will you answer mine?

Regarding:

Matthew 19:16-21

16 And lo, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall
I do, that I MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

17 And he said to him, Why askest thou
me concerning what is the good? One is the :good: but if thou wouldest enter into the life, keep the commandments.

He also said to the one asking ... follow me.

Christ doesn't say it's all about just faith as you teach.

He said keep commandments to enter life, and then he said "follow Him".

He doesn't say to follow him ....up to a point as some teach.


Do you consent to Christ's teaching to ETERNAL LIFE, in this passage?
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


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duane - regarding John 3:13, see Barnes notes,

"And no man hath ascended into heaven. No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, #Joh 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with themdemands that we have seen them, and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne there (#Ge 5:24, comp. #Heb 11:5 2Ki 2:11), and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there, but it means that no one had ascended and returned, so as to be qualified to speak of the things there. "
---Lee1538 on 12/6/09


//duane-Read John 3:13........

No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Really makes you wonder what happen to Enoch for God took him (Genesis 5:24) and Elijah who took off in a whirlwind may have ended up on the moon.

And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 2 Kings 2:11.
---Lee1538 on 12/6/09


Lee1538:

Isaiah 8:20

To the Law and to the testimony! if they speak NOT ACCORDING to this word, SURELY SURELY there is NO morning for them.

Reading:

Abraham obeyed MY VOICE, AND KEPT MY charge, MY commandments,MY MY statues and MY MY laws.

WHAT SCRIPTURE IS THERE THAT SHOWS GEN. 26 IS NOT THE LAW OF MT. SINAI?
---Paul9594 on 12/6/09


-- Lee1538 :

/// So where was Abraham when he saw the time of Christ?--Lee1538 on 12/5/09 ///


Brother, It's not a question of 'Where' Abraham was when he saw the Lord's day but 'How' he saw it!! It as by the Hopes of Faith spoken of in Rom.8:18-25, b/c if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it : and in this case "It" is the Promise of adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies : by the Grace of God in Christ Jesus unto Salvation.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

Lee, Abraham saw the day of our Lord the same way King David saw the day of our Lord in Psalm 110:1-3, and that was through keeping Hope 'Alive' !!!
---Shawn.M.T on 12/6/09


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Lee,
Read John 3:13........
---duane on 12/6/09


duane - //How did Abraham obtain salvation? Unlike Christians, HE had to wait for Jesus Christ to appear on the scene and give HIS LIFE for mankind.

One of the things that angered the Pharisees was the Jesus claimed Abraham saw His day and rejoiced.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.

So where was Abraham when he saw the time of Christ? If in heaven then clearly he already received his salvation - correct?

Also Christ stated that [God] is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for ALL LIVE unto him. Lk. 20:38.
---Lee1538 on 12/5/09


God bless ChristiaNet.
This is some of the best preaching I ever heard:oD
"Lord, it is good for us to be here:"
---josef on 12/6/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

//// How did Abraham obtain salvation in the OT?---Paul9594 on 12/4/09 ////

Brethren, Abraham obtained God's Promise by Faith and eagerly awaited to receive the Living Seal of God's Grace through His Promise of the Finish Works of Christ to come on the Cross, but no one has obtained/redeemed Salvation yet !!

It's True that through Faith we, NT & OT alike, are Justified and Righteousness is imputed unto us so that when God's Promise of Grace by Christ comes, it shall abound upon us unto Salvation, but Salvation is something that is still yet to be redeemed by all who are Sealed with God's Holy Ghost.
---ShawnM.T. on 12/5/09


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Ok good, I agree Abraham receives salvation by faith, as we do.

I am wondering, how much weaker am I?

Lets read WHY IN Abrahams/Isaac SEED: shall ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH BE BLESSED (Spiritual seed, who walk in the Spirit)

Gen 26:4 And I will MULTIPLY thy SEED as the STARS of heaven, and will give unto thy SEED ALL these lands. And in thy seed shall ALL the NATIONS of the EARTH be blessed.

Gen 26:5 BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

WHAT SCRIPTURE IS THERE THAT GEN. 26 NOT THE LAW OF MT. SINAI?

Reading:

Abraham obeyed MY VOICE, AND KEPT MY charge, MY commandments,MY MY statues and MY MY laws.
---Paul9594 on 12/5/09


How did Abraham obtain salvation? Unlike Christians, HE had to wait for Jesus Christ to appear on the scene and give HIS LIFE for mankind.
There is no eternal life without the LIFE of Christ.
---duane on 12/5/09


Paul9594 //According to your responses, Im a weaker brother.

Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Like all of us, there are gaps in our knowledge that inhibit our spiritual growth.

Fortunately this forum has a lot of very good and knowledgeable Christians that can contribute much that can be beneficial to your spiritual growth.
---Lee1538 on 12/5/09


Salvation is by the Grace of God, as Scripture so clearly teach, it cannot be of works, whether actual or foreseen. There is no merit in believing, for faith itself is a gift of God. God gives His people an inward working of the Spirit in order that they may believe, and faith is only the act of receiving the proffered gift. It is then, only the instrumental cause, and not the meritorious cause, of salvation in every age. Abraham was righteous because of his faith, which was the working of the Spirit in order that he might believe. In every age God has been gracious in making sure that there is always a Remnant who have believed by faith.
---MarkV. on 12/5/09


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//How did Abraham obtain salvation in the OT?

As he was counted righteous by faith alone, his eternal salvation was the same as ours, a gift of God since no one is justified by works.
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


Kathr, Lee and MarkV I applaud you all. Its nice to see humble hearts in the Christian world. Men and women who know they are nothing before a Holy God and praise Him for His free gift of eternal life by grace through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul, I didnt have you wrong as I apologized for in another post. You are too stuck on the law as a means to prove you are worthy of Heaven. Look within your heart. Is your obedience rooted in pride, fear or love?

I fear for you. You are in my prayers.
---JackB on 12/4/09


Lee1538:

Into this age of grace,so called.


You say:

.our justification is by imputation. God transfers to us, by faith, the righteousness of Christ.


Ok, good. I agree.

Now, does Abraham enter the Kingdom, the new Jerusalem?

We know he does.

According to your responses, Im a weaker brother.


According to your correct understanding, please answer this:


How did Abraham obtain salvation in the OT?
---Paul9594 on 12/4/09


Lee, some very good examples that you found in Galatians. I see that many, from whatever denominations they come from, want to force the law or their own laws to everyone. In many cases they introduce new laws and want you to follow them. I just gave Pastor Jim Romans 14: that is clear concerning days to observe "He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord, and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it."
What might be a day for one does not mean it has to be a day for another under the covenant of grace. What might be unclean for one might not be unclean for another. Paul even says, "why do you judge your brother" Yet they don't stop judging.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09


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Ga 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Justification means to be declared righteous. It is the Christian doctrine or belief that the grace of God absolves people from all sin (see Dictionary)


Contrary to those who promote a works of righteousness theology, our justification is by imputation. God tranfers to us, by faith, the righteousness of Christ.

"But the words it was counted to him (Abraham) were not written for his sake alone,but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification." Romans 4:23f
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


MarkV - I believe the problem we face goes back to the one the Apostle Paul had in the Jerusalem church between Gentile Christians and Jewish converts.

Consider -

But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in -who slipped in to spy out our freedom we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery - to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. Gal. 2:3f

There are those who today simply believe Christianity is no more than an extension to Judaism as they insist upon obedience to Old Covenant laws esp. Sabbath keeping.

Your thoughts?
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


The Holy Spirit living within us is just one part of His outstanding grace. Mark_Eaton***

The Other part would be the very life of Christ living in us and We in Him, baptized into His death and resurrection life.


And when Christ WHO IS OUR LIFE shall appear, we shall appear with Him in GLORY...Colossians 3:1-4****

Galatians 1:15-17
15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Has God revealed His Son in you to preach to the Heathens as well? Who among you conferred with man that told you not to preach the Gospel to the Lost?
---kathr4453 on 12/4/09


Mark E, very good points brother. I don't think the judging by others will ever stop. So long as sin is still in the world, even Christians have pride. That we understand these truths is what is important, that through the grace of God we will be sanctified and later glorified. And in the mean time, "...so that we are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord" 1 Cor. 1:7-9.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09


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Paul9594:

You are missing the second point of your blog question.

Grace. It is what God gives to believers to allow us to attain to the high standard of His commandments. Without His grace, we have no righteousness and we have no way of ever pleasing God. Without grace we would not be abe to walk in His ways and be an obedient child of God. The Holy Spirit living within us is just one part of His outstanding grace.

Having His outstanding grace does not give us license to sin. Far from it. He holds us to a higher standard now that we have His grace. A higher standard that exceeds the Torah.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/4/09


Titus 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,( that would be Jesus Christ,who came full of GRACE and truth)

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world,

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,


And this Grace in which we now Stand has promised us :

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

Salvation is more than being saved from the wrath to come.

We're appointed joint heirs with Christ, all the riches that are in Christ Jesus for now and forever more.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/09


Grace is not a one time event. God has been gracious all through history. That it came through Jesus Christ, is not to say it did not come before to the Old Testament believers. The grace through Christ completes the Atonement for all those who believe through faith. And faith is a gift of God. Grace is an action of God towards us that is unmerited. Through that Grace or unmerited favor of God we receive the gift of faith. Old Testament believers (the Remnant) believed and were kept by the grace of God. "The remnant of Israel shall do no unrighteousness and speak no lies..." Zeph. 3:13. This could not be possible without the Grace of God holding and making them stand.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09


Lee, those were great answers you gave. I believe those others want to rest on the law and not in Christ Jesus. And because they rest on the law, they want everyone to do so, and if they don't then in their eyes we are rebelling. No one could be save by the law. But legalistic is the correct word for it. Through Christ and the Holy Spirit guiding the new believers we can accomplish what God demands from us. We won't be perfect but we are not slaves to sin anymore. Even though they talk of the law, they themselves cannot keep all of the law, so they fail just like everyone does, and the reason we need Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09


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Faith is obedience to the KNOWN will of God.


However God GRACIOUSLY did tell Adam-Eve Genesis 3:15.

BY FAITH Abel obeyed the KNOWN will of God that God has shown them. Faith worked through their CONSCIENCE as it does ours.

God TOLD Adam-Eve in Genesis 3:15 that there would be a redeemer and told them about sacrifice. THEY obeyed ,except for Cain,and their obedience of believing God and obeying God was faith, the substance of Things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE (Genesis 3:15) of things not seen.

I can Graciously tell anyone anything but that doesn't mean my graciousness demands you believe and obey!

Being Gracious and Saved By GRACE are two different things.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/09


// law is TRUTH, dont throw it in the trash...

Christians believe the words of Jesus when He stated 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life'. Jn. 14:6 It is that TRUTH we seek to obey.

Those that confuse the truth found in the law with the truth that is Jesus, really have lost their way and have fallen into graceless legalism.

The Pharisees were really great law keepers but did they have the truth? Apparently not since Christ condemned them as children not of Abraham but of their father the devil. Jn.8:44f
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


"What is righteousness...?"
A State of being made acceptable to the Father through the faith of His anointed Saviour.
"Should we be after it or just faith and grace?"
The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, and "we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ.."
"That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to.., even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. [Why?] Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law."
---Josef on 12/4/09


//Lee, are u being sanctified INTO the apostates brand of Truth?

The Scripture tells me that -

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philippians 1:6

Usually those that use the law to insult other Christians or as a means of accusing them of being something they are not, are the legalists who lack the spirit behind the law.

But such were the old Pharisees that constantly accused Jesus of not observing the law (esp. the Sabbath) much like the modern Pharisees who believe one must be obedient to selected OT laws, given as a temporary tutor or schoolmaster until we could be justified by faith. Gal.3
---Lee1538 on 12/4/09


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Shawn T. I am sorry I have to disagree. As far as I know, there is only one way to be save, "By the grace of God through faith." Anyone that had faith, was because God was Gracious to give them faith. They did not just invent faith from within to believe in God and the coming of Christ. That faith came from God. To suggest that faith comes without Grace, means it came from within the person. I do know their Atonement would not be met until Christ came. But their faith made them righteous waiting for the Atonement, Christ. Just as they, we too are saved by Grace through faith. Only our Atonement has come, (Christ) yet neither of any of us are saved yet from the wrath to come which is future, but we both hang on the promise.
---MarkV. on 12/4/09


//Lee, are u being sanctified INTO the apostates brand of Truth?

No at all, however, I view things much differently than you do having been walking with the Lord for the past 50 years and actively studying the Word of God.

You apparently do not know that an apostate is one who departs from the faith or somebody who renounces belief. I rather doubt I could do that considering where I have been and how the Lord has dealt with me over the years.

Perhaps your problem is also one liken to the foolish Galatians who sought to be justifed by obedience to Jewish customs and laws?
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


//Genesis 26:5 - BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept MY charge, MY commandments, MY statutes, and MY laws.

If you wish to believe that those commandments, statutes, and laws that God gave Moses on Mt. Sinai,than have at it. However, you will not find a single Biblical commentator or Biblical scholar that will agree with you.

Perhpas what you are really doing is trying to get Christians to go back to the "elementary principles of the world" - [To the rites and ceremonies of the Jewish law, imposing a servitude really not less severe than the customs of paganism.- Barnes notes}.
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


Lee1538:

//John 1:17 for the law was given by Moses, but grace and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.///

TRUTH also came by Christ!

Should we trash the COMPLETE truth that Christ brings?

Or keep Grace a part of Truth only? And throw the rest of Truth His Law in the trash?

Will you consent to Christ's BASIC teachings at least, per 1 Timothy 6:3-4 ??

John 17:17

SANCTIFY THEM in the TRUTH: THY WORD is TRUTH

No New Testament, when said.

His lips answers what you don't seem to understand:

What is TRUTH?

....THY WORD is TRUTH, pointing to His Father's, Law and the Prophets! ALL OF IT!

Lee, are u being sanctified INTO the apostates brand of Truth?
---paul9594 on 12/3/09


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Lee1538:

You say:

///....your contention that Abraham followed the Mosaic laws is without any merit whatsoever.///

Our Father, speaking to Isaac. Speaking of Abraham Father said:

Genesis 26:5 - BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept MY charge, MY commandments, MY statutes, and MY laws.

Lee, when Father said Abraham KEPT "MY" laws etc, He means only HIS LAWS, which Abel, Cain, Noah, King of Gerar(Genesis 20) and his men knew, and others!

WHAT DOES "MY" MEAN TO YOU?

If Abraham's KEPT other laws, this would not of His Torah and rebellion!

Please study Torah, I don't want to embarass you.

There is His Law, He upholds, of His covenants, which Abel Cain knew.
---paul9594 on 12/3/09


Lee1538:

Psalm 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and THY LAW is TRUTH.

Malachi 2:6 The LAW OF TRUTH was IN his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and uprightness, and turned many away from iniquity. (SPEAKING OF CHRIST!)

Rom 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having IN the LAW THE FORM of KNOWLEDGE AND OF THE TRUTH,

In other words:

John 1:17 law was given by Moses, but both grace and LAW (TRUTH) came by Jesus Christ!

Surprise! Brother, law is TRUTH, dont throw it in the trash, this is why our house is divided. Can a house divided stand? here comes the enemy and great will be the fall!
---Paul9594 on 12/3/09


//Regarding Faith, how is the New Covenant different?

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

//And why not follow the rest of Abrahams example?

The rest of Abrahams example?

Sorry but your contention that Abraham followed the Mosaic laws is without any merit whatsoever.

Like Abraham we should also have an obedience to faith to the specific commands of God given to us whatever they may be. This entails having an intimate relationship with our Lord.

Abraham's promises and blessings were not based on law or law keeping but on faith. The New Testament call is for the righteous to live by faith. Romans 1:17.
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


Righteousness has obedience and faith!

Abraham ALSO showed obedienceto God's Law, statutes. He would even command this for his children!

Genesis 18:19 - For I know him, that he will COMMAND his children and his household after him(Abraham) , and they shall KEEP the way of YAHWEH, to do justice and righteousness(Strongs 6666) , that YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, ....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed,

5 - BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Why BLESSING of nations? Abraham's Obedience to His Law!
---Paul9594 on 12/3/09


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-- MarkV:

Brother, Don't seek to understand theology. Focus on God's Word. There's a "Covenant Promise of Circumcision"(Gen.17:8-14), but there's no "Covenant of Grace", and that's what's confusing you !!

WADR you're working Eph.2:8 rather thin, just to see OT Saints Saved by Grace through Faith before the Finished Works of the Cross : when Jesus having stated many times "Thy Faith hath Saved thee".

Rom.8:24 states that "we are saved by Hope".

MarkV, Could it possible be that Abraham & all the other Saints of the OT were Saved by the Hopes of Faith spoken of in Rom.8:18-24, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of their bodies : by the Grace of God in Christ Jesus.
---ShawnM.T. on 12/3/09


Paul9594 //Where does it say to teach/follow in agreement with Christ up to a point?

It is simply a matter of rightfully handling the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15). If you wish to blow a rams horn and be Jewish like Christ and follow those Torah laws that are strictly Jewish in nature, then toot away.

However, if you ever read that we have been redeemed from the law (Gal. 3:13, 4:4f), you may want to simply live by the Law of Christ (Gal 6:2, 1 Cor.9.21)alone for in that you will satisfy all the requirements of the Christian walk.

The just live by faith, not by the law Romans 1:17.
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


Paul9594 //Study The Torah! But avoid Talmud, Mishna Torah teachings on The Torah, which add to His Torah.

Why promote the Torah when "the law (the Torah) was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ"? John 1:17

So why focus on the Torah instead of the Gospel message being that the law was something given only as a temporary measure (a schoolmaster) until we could be justified by faith.

Perhaps you wish to use the law as a means of measuring yourself with others.2Co 10:12

Who are you exactly? When referencing your handle Paul9594, the system states that you are not even a member on Christianet?
---Lee1538 on 12/3/09


Hebrews 13:20-21. The Everlasting Covenant between God, the Word and the Holy Spirit, before the foundation of the World. This Covenant is HIS Promises to us. We ENTER into This Covenant when we enter into HIS Rest..the Finished work of Christ.

Hebrews 13:20-21

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The Blood of bulls and goats never made anyone perfect in the OT! Heb 10.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


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Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you, the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous
---Bob on 12/3/09


-- Paul9594 :

Brother, In Regarding to your question of "Faith, how is the New Covenant different?"

While it's True that through Faith we, NT & OT alike, are Justified and Righteousness is imputed unto us, through which God's Grace by Christ shall abound upon us : We being Sealed with God's Indwelling Holy Ghost have obtained a Mediator of a better Covenant established in Grace, while the OT Saints resided in a Covenant where they waited on God's promise of Grace to come by the Finish Works of Christ.
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/3/09


No human being will be justified in his sight. Psalm 143:2. David says "no living person," Paul says "no human being"by observing the law. b4 or after Calvary.

Justification by faith in Christ, is God's divine Sovereign right, which is the righteousness of God **Romans 3:21**.

His divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law but apart from it **Romans 3:21**, and not because of any merit in us , but through forgiveness of their sins **Romans 3:24**, wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe **Romans 3:22, 24-25.
---kathr4453 on 12/3/09


From "how to study the Scriptures blog" Shawn T. I appreciate your answers.
Here is what I am reading from you. That God does not display His Grace to anyone until Jesus came and died on the Cross. Is that correct? ""The Covenant of Grace is the agreement between God and a sinner which God promises salvation through faith, and the sinner promises a life of faith and obedience" All Old Testament believers as well as contemporary believers are part of the covenant of Grace. If Old Testament believers were not saved by Grace through faith, how were they saved? Are you saying as Kathr that no one was a genuine believer in the Old T. Why were they called saint? Or believers? Don't understand you theology.
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


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To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, Where sin abounded & reigned unto death, Grace does much more abound & reign through Righteousness unto Eternal Life by Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.


--- Paul9594 :

Brother, How could anyone follow after Christ through Faith, without the Obedience of God's Righteousness also, unto Grace ???
---ShawnM.T. on 12/3/09


"You boys ...."

Thank you for the comment lol. I suddenly feel 16 again woohoo

I apologize if I have mistaken your position, sir. God bless you
---JackB on 12/3/09


Adetunji your point well said.

You also may get to be one of the 144,000 last days Apostles! (men)

Study The Torah!

But avoid Talmud, Mishna Torah teachings on The Torah, which add to His Torah.
---Paul9594 on 12/3/09


JackB:

I've answered your question, where is the answers to mine?

Its taught, to Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness, (Romans 4:9) likewise this is so into the church age.

By faith we enter righteousness, even as Abraham.

After all we apply faith to reckon our righteousness, in the church age.

Answer these:

Regarding Faith, how is the New Covenant different?

And why not follow the rest of Abrahams example?

Have you been told the FULL STORY about Abraham's rightousness?
---Paul9594 on 12/3/09


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Mark Eaton, lee1538, JackB:

Romans 3:21
But now apart from law, Gods righteousness hath been
manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets,

In other words, this verse is saying:

God's righteousness is manifested in the law, additonally its COMPLEMENTED (not belittled) because its manifested, witnessed by the law AND the prophets.

You boys misunderstand what Ive said, for the record:

MY salvation and my sanctification INTO RIGHTEOUSNESS is by my FAITH IN the works of Christs death on the cross because of the powers there of.....

My righteousness is NOT IN my works of the law, on my own, ever!
---paul9594 on 12/3/09


Paul9594:

Romn 3:21-22 "But now apart from the Law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe, for there is no distinction"

The righeousness of God is given through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

You cannot receive righteousness or justification by faith in anything other than Jesus. It is explained even further in verse 27

Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded by what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith"

Only by the law of faith, not by works of the Law will righteousness be accounted.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/3/09


Dear JackB:

Its taught, to Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness, (Romans 4:9) likewise this is so for church age believers.

Then, how is the Old covenant no more? After all we apply faith to reckon our righteousness.

By faith we enter righteousness, even as Abraham.

So why not follow the rest of Abrahams example?

Genesis 18:19 - For I know him, that he will COMMAND his children and his household after him(Abraham) , and they shall KEEP the way of YAHWEH, to do JUSTICE and RIGHTEOUSNESS(Strongs 6666) , that YAHWEH may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Genesis 26:5 - BECAUSE that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
---Paul9594 on 12/2/09


Lee1538:
Should we not follow Christ example?
You answered:
//Up to a point. One should realize that Christ was a Jew and followed. //

Are you teaching things not consenting to the words of Christ?


1Timothy 6:3 -4

If any MAN teaches a DIFFERENT doctrine, and CONSENTS NOT to sound words, the words of our Lord Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness,
4 he is puffed up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes of words,


Where does it say to teach/follow in agreement with Christ up to a point?

When will you align yourself with words of Christ?! Matthew 5:17-20

Do we follow Christ up to the point apostates disagree with His words?
---Paul9594 on 12/2/09


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Righteousness Part1/5
Main passage quoted in support of imputation of RIGHTEOUSNESS is Romans 4:1-11.

Verse 3 of 4 quotes Genesis 15:6. Translated incorrectly, this passage supposedly reads:

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness

Position from Romans 4, the translation of the Greek verb logizomai as reckoned, counted or imputed. given such translation, righteousness becomes the possession of the believer by virtue of imputation.

The problem resides precisely in translation and interpretation of logizomai.

True that this basic family of words can mean credit/charge to ones account (for example, logizomai itself is used by Paul in the sense of keep a record of in 1 Corint 13:5).
---Paul9594 on 12/2/09


Righteousness is not something that you can obtain on your own. As mima posted earlier, our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight.

However, when we accept the sacrifice and atonement that Jesus gave to us by His death and resurrection, we receive righteousness as part of that salvation.

2 Cor. 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".
---Mark_Eaton on 12/2/09


Isaiah 64:6,:But we are all as an unclean thing, AND ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS ARE AS FILTHY RAGS, and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

This VERSE doesn't speak of a person's drinking, carousing, warmongering around. NO!!! It speaks of all our righteousness, our best behavior, our being baptized, our good works and he calls these things filthy rags. So any righteousness that we have and that will be accepted by the father must come from the son Lord Jesus Christ.
---mima on 12/2/09


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