ChristiaNet MallWorld's Largest Christian MallChristian BlogsFree Bible QuizzesFree Ecards and Free Greeting CardsLoans, Debt, Business and Insurance Articles

What Is Grace, Faith & Works

How do you define the words "grace", "faith" and "works" as mentioned in Ephesians 2:8,9?

Join Our Free Chat and Take The Salvation Bible Quiz
 ---Rachel on 12/1/09
     Helpful Blog Vote (6)

Post a New Blog



Lee, you are correct. I had just written a three part answer to Paul because of what he said. He had the whole chapter of Acts with another meaning altogether. This blog will close soon so I was not able to put it down. The Judaizers had been causing trouble to the Gentiles converts. They had been teaching that unless the Gentiles got circumcise they were not saved. So you are right (Paul9594) put a whole new meaning to the chapter.
---MarkV. on 12/17/09


Paul9594 Eph. 2:13f basically says that there is no longer any spiritual DISTINCTION between believing Jews & Gentiles as Christ became our peace breaking down the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments & ordinances (of the Torah) that he might create in himself one new man in place of two, ...reconciling us both to God in one body thru the Cross.

So there goes the old Torah, down the drain as far as Christians are concerned. Sorry but Scripture does not say Gentiles need become Jews or followers of the Torah.

Since Christ is the Vine, are you one of the branches?
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


//Apostles and council were not not rejecting circumcision or Torah, but a rejection instead of Pharisaic CONVERSION TRADITIONS.

Not at all true!!!

The issue at the Jerusalem council was simply whether or not Gentile converts had to become Jews AND FOLLOW THE LAW OF MOSES, THE TORAH.

Acts 15:5 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, It is necessary to circumcise them AND AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.

Circumcision was the rite of entrance into Judaism and if one became circumcised, one had to observe all of laws of Judaism, including the traditions.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


Lee1538:
Whats obvious? Your own admissions of your bad reasoning of Scripture of Gen. 26:5!

U DENIED, Fathers laws of Gen. 26:5 being more than just morals, u asked me:

//Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//

AFTER Showing you Scripture authority of laws of Gen. 26L5 more than natural moral law, you answered:

.. forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law, THEY DO NOT. They are simply LEARNED behavior that expresses worship./// ---Lee1538 12/12/09

I proved, that the Laws of Gen. 26:5 are more than natural moral laws everyone is born with. And There is more
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


Lee1538:
You say with your lips your in the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32, but in your heart you are NOT of the New Covenant.

4 your insight:

The New Covenant (KJV) of Jeremiah 31:31-32, reads:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a NEW COVENANT WITH WITH WITH the HOUSE of ISRAEL, and with the HOUSE of JUDAH:
32 not according to the covenant that I made with fathers

Since you are NOT of either house which the Father MAKES His New Covenant with, you are NOT in The New Covenant!

Shows more of your bad reasoning, thinking you are in the New Covenant!!
I hope at some point you are grafted in for your sake!
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09




Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was THE Word, and the Word was with God, AND AND the Word Word Word was God.

You deny the Words of Christ, follow HIM up to a point, per your words!!!
U ONLY read the 5 books of Torah.
But not studied it with the understanding it is THE Word, Christ, so you abolish Him! And not understanding Torah/Law, U twist things.

Peter said OF PAUL:
according to the WISDOM given him, wrote you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, wherein are some hard to be
understood, which the UNLEARNED and UNSTEADFAST TWIST, as also the other scriptures, unto their own :destruction.

I HOPE AT SOME POINT YOU ARE GRAFTED INTO the New Covenant, or you may hear Matthew 7:21-23!!
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


//Because Gentiles were to continue learning Torah each week in synagogues!

What is your source on that view? Are you simply joking?

The early church had it own catechismal system of educating converts. (see Didache)

There is virtually NOTHING in the NT or in the early church writings that tells us the Gentiles were to seek guidance from the Jewish synagogues on the Torah.

Nor were the Rabbis that ran the synagogues kind to Gentiles or Christians. In fact a Gentile who was not a proselyte would have been run off if he went to a Jewish synagogue to learn about Jesus and the Torah.

There was considerable animosity between Gentiles and Jews. Eph. 2:14f

Your view is totally without merit and ignorant.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


JackB:
Acts 15:5-11 1/2
Circumcision, a conversion, IMPOSED, TRADITION by Pharisees.

Just as baptism can be misused today as a means of " ENTERING INTO TRUE SALVATION."

But If you refuse to be baptized in the Mormon church, surely you'd see your rejection of Mormanism version of the Gospel-- NOT baptism itself or you rejecting salvation!!!

This GROUP of the circumcision, had this TRADITION to enter true salvation, NOT of the true church builders the Apostles!!
They rejected this Pharisaic demand that Gentiles undergo the Pharisaic circumcision to truly enter salvation.

Apostles and council were not not rejecting circumcision or Torah, but a rejection instead of Pharisaic CONVERSION TRADITIONS.
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


//Are you researching the commentaries to answer this question or Scripture?

If needed I use both as good commentaries elaborate on the Scripture.

Your view is wrong that Gentiles who become Christians must follow the Torah law - the law of Moses. The Jerusalem council was convened to determine if Gentile Christians needed observe the laws of Moses.

Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the Pharisee party said, It is necessary to circumcise them AND AND to order them to keep the law of Moses.

The issue was settled when they decided Gentiles need not be circumcised (the rite of entrance into Judaism), nor have to follow the Law of Moses.That has been the position held by the church for centuries.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


JackB:
Acts 15:5-11 Part 3/3

The issue was:
Must the Gentiles have Circumcision for entering into salvation? NO!!
Christ taught:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do, but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers." Matt 23:2-4

Do you consent to this Teaching of Christ?
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09




//But Its important to NOTE that in the Greek you will not find the numerical value for the word covenant. Covenant is inserted by apostates or well meaning translators interpreting what they dont fully understand!!!

The entire chapter 8 is about the covenants. To say that apostates or translators inserted the word covenant in 8:13 is totally without any merit. Nearly every verse in the New Testament can be found within the writings of the early church much like we read it today.

Sorry, but the eggs are really falling out of your basket.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


Lee1538:

Scripture ...plain that there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles.///

Rev. 22:16
I JESUS have SENT MINE angel(MESSENGER) to TESTIFY unto you THESE things FOR FOR the CHURCHES. I AM the ROOT.

Christ IS root!!! Are YOU grafted into root, Christ?

Jews are of His root, you know!!!

Paul to Gentiles CONVERTS:

Eph 2:12 that ye WERE WERE at that time SEPARATE from Christ, ALIENATED from the commonwealth of ISRAEL, and STRANGERS from the covenants of THE PROMISE, having no hope without God.

14 For he who made BOTH BOTH one, and BRAKE down the middle wall of

You dont belong to neither house Israel, nor Judah? Then you are still alienated from commonwealth of ISRAEL!!!
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Grace is a gift given that one does not deserve. Works in this passage pertains to the law of Moses. In the book of James, we find that faith without works is dead. Look at the example of works. If a brother has need, then we should provide for him. Works here pertains to showing loving kindness and good fruits. It is not about the Law of Moses. Hope that helps.
---jody on 12/17/09


Paul9594 //So youre of New Covenant of Jeremiah. 31, which house do YOU belong to?
The House of Israel OR the House of Judah ?

Scripture is very plain that there is a distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

Gentiles do not become Jews after they become Christians and come under the Torah law. That issue was settled at the Jerusalem council Acts 15.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


Lee1538:
I agree:
New Covenant not according to the covenant...( but according to what Scripture says what the covenant is about!!?

I asked U:
Are you in the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32, like other Christians?

U Said:
In the NEW COVENANT of the church, not the old Mosaic Covenant.

Ok so you believe you are in the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31, not according to the covenant.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:....not according to the covenant....

Which house are YOU in? House of Judah Or The House of Israel?

Are you researching the commentaries to answer this question or Scripture?
---Paul9594 on 12/17/09


Paul9594-

You are 100% correct on what your saying, but your speaking to deaf ears here. YHVH bless you for the truth you speak
---wayne on 12/17/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Asthma


//Of Hebrews 8:13 not only is the word obsolete, or vanish away are both incorrect translations in the Greek version.

That is simply a lie.

'In the to say 'new' he has made old the first, and the thing being made old and growing aged [is] near vanishing. 'Zondervan Parallel NT in Greek & English.

All the modern translations state that the Old Cov has become obsolete or words to that effect, who are you to challenge those that know Greek and have done the translations?

The answer is that you discount any verse of Scripture that disagrees with what want to believe. Am I not correct?
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


In this context:
Grace- God favour to us whereby The Son of God died the death we should have died.

Through faith (a) the faith of Jesus to believe that God would raise him from the death (b) Our belief in the death, resurrection, and work of Jesus in the heavenly sanctuary.

Works, We are not saved because we obey God or based on how much Good we do.
---francis on 12/17/09


The Grace given and spoken of is the knowledge of God and of his will.
John 8:55: "... but I know him, and keep his saying."
John 17:3: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."
Faith is the means, the vehicle which draws us closer, nearer to God and his Grace, (Ephesians 1:13).
Works are the fruit of an "honest and good heart", Luke 8:15.
---Nana on 12/16/09


Dear JackB:
Torah 4 Gentiles Part 1/3

Ah, Jack again in this instance, you need to quote more verses to get the FULL context MEANING, this issue CONTINUES INTO and finally is SOLVED in Acts 15:19-22 :0)

Act 15:20-22
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath. 22 THEN THEN it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to....
---Paul9594 on 12/16/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Cholesterol


JackB:
Torah 4 Gentiles Part 3/3
Why are synagogues mentioned here along with the 'four laws'?

Because Gentiles were to continue learning Torah each week in synagogues! They are being started off on these four laws so they would have the bare basics to begin fellowshipping with Jewish brethren and they would learn the rest of Torah each Shabbat at synagogue. ONLY ONLY ONLY after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly THEN THEN "did it please the apostles and elders" (vs 22) to send this letter out to the various churches!!!

Surprised?
---Paul9594 on 12/16/09


Lee1538:

Of Hebrews 8:13 not only is the word obsolete, or vanish away are both incorrect translations in the Greek version.

But Its important to NOTE that in the Greek you will not find the numerical value for the word covenant. Covenant is inserted by apostates or well meaning translators interpreting what they dont fully understand!!!

Check this in the original Greek translated to English about 100 yrs ago, you will not find the word covenant in the verse of Hebrews 8:13!!

Since you said, youre of the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 which house do you belong to, the House of Israel or House of Judah?
---Paul9594 on 12/16/09


Heb. 8:13 Hebrew text:
according to that which he said 'renewed covenant' he has
antiquated the first to that which has put on antiquity and in
coming days behold he offers that which is longed for.

Hebrew word for "longed for" here is SHEY'KAMAH (Strong's
3642) meaning "to long for", "to become pale" or "to vanish away".
mistranslation to "to vanish away correct: "LONGED FOR."
Makes sense, SINCE TRUE men of Faith KNEW priesthood, their sacrifices was THE school master teaching what ultimately Christ Himself would fulfill, TO REDEEM US!

So youre of New Covenant of Jeremiah. 31, which house do YOU belong to?
The House of Israel OR the House of Judah ?
---Paul9594 on 12/16/09


Paul9594 //I dont know which covenant you are in!!

In the New Covenant of the church, not the old Mosaic Covenant which Father declared to be obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13).

The Covenant noted in Jeremiah 31 is NOT NOT a rehash of that Covenant God made with Israel when they left Egypt as you would maintain. Note the phrase 'Not according to the covenant'. It is found also in Hebrews 8:8

As for the promise given to Abraham, it is based on faith, he was viewed as righteousness because he believed, not not on his obedience to laws, statutes, etc.

Rom.4:3 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
---Lee1538 on 12/16/09


Send a Free New Year Ecard


Paul9594- Romans 2:14-16 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them ...

Would you tell us how the Gentiles who did not have the Torah law, by nature did what the law required simply by following their conscience?

And who wrote that law onto the hearts of Gentiles so they could follow their conscience?
---Lee1538 on 12/16/09


Paul, I don't have the conscience of Christ. I have my own conscience. Jesus is God, how can you even suggest to have His conscience. I don't have the conscience of the Torah either for I would have no conscience, since the Torah has no conscience. It is a book. Books don't have conscience.
And how about you, do you have the conscience of a book? do you live a perfect life? Are you sinless? Are you able to live everyday without sin? Please, you can add your name to the list of sinless people, who call themselves righteous because of their works and turn around and condemn everyone for not been like them. Are you without a sin nature? Has your flesh been redeemed?
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


Act 15:5-10 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said Men and brethren, ye know how that God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us,
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
---JackB on 12/16/09


MarkV.

you question what I said about conscience. And then ask me a question about Christ. My purpose in life is Christ. ///
Then, will u follow the conscience of Christ, LOVE examples displayed. Christ kept Fathers ways to show His love for His Father.

Conscience can be marred by false teachings, society, ones own desires.

Nations of the World blessed BECAUSE Abraham was a man of FAITH AND AND AND obedience:

Gen 26:4-5 .because that Abraham OBEYED my voice, AND kept my charge, my commandments, and my laws.

Abraham kept His laws, was he refused THE PROMISE? If U keep Father's commandments u can receive THE PROMISE!

How about following the conscience of the living Torah of love: Christ displays?
---Paul9594 on 12/15/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Lasik Surgery


Lee1538:

I don't know which convenant you are in!!!

Which covenant are you in?

Is it the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32, like other Christians?

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
---Paul9594 on 12/15/09


Paul9594 //So apostles learned the message from air? Then went FIRST to Jews!

The Apostles followed and were taught by Jesus for some 3 years.

//All apostles, Paul, who wrote a good part of the epistles, QUOTED OR REPEATED.

Their quotes from the Old Mosaic Covenant were to show Jesus was the predicted Messiah.

They did not preach the Torah but the gospel, Christ, Him crucified, buried and resurrected on our behalf.

The Apostle Paul even viewed the righteousness that comes from obedience to OT laws simply as rubbish "in order that [he] may gain Christ". Php.3:8

You are trying to view Christianity simply as another sect of Judaism - same as the Judaizers.





---Lee1538 on 12/15/09


Lee1538:
// Apostles & their successors did not preach the Torah but the Gospel Message of Christ crucified and risen from the dead. //

So apostles learned the message from air? Then went FIRST to Jews!

Why did Christ expand, to be apostles, Law and Prophets? Luke 24:44

How many Jews would believe their preaching not from Torah/Law and The Prophets?

00000000, in words ZERO, ZERO.

You also said:
What they taught is found in their Epistles.///

Good, because you own statement shows your bad reasoning of Scriptures in THIS POINT also.
All apostles, Paul, who wrote a good part of the epistles, QUOTED OR REPEATED. Law and The Prophets, not commentaries, epistles SHOW this!!
---Paul9594 on 12/15/09


//Let me ask some here a serious question. Do you Always 100% of the time DO what God works in you?

No but I am not 100% mature as a Christian yet as I find myself stumbling from time to time,but Father always picked me up and keeps me going either their His word or by His discipline.

Howbeit, I will continue to make progress and am assured of my eternal salvation because of what Christ has done for me on the Cross.

Jas 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways, and if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body.
---Lee1538 on 12/15/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Bullion


Paul, you avoided the question al together. Why is that? Are you embarrassed of your denomination? Or its teachings? Everyone here says they have faith, the question is, on whom do you have faith in? On your works? or in Christ? If your faith is in Christ, then why do you consider works of righteousness as your focus on discussing these blogs? As if your works are perfect, which we all know that is a lie. You must have a point, something you wish to reveal but are going around in circles. What is it that you want? What is your purpose?
---MarkV. on 12/15/09


Phil.2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09

Let me ask some here a serious question. Do you Always 100% of the time DO what God works in you? God may work in you to forgive someone, and you may refuse to submit and surrender to that working.

God certainly does work it in us but WE have to work it OUT....work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

To me that is a warning to take God's Working in you what is His Good Pleasure VERY VERY seriously.

WE actually have to obey, just as Abraham, not knowing the outcome, yet obeying anyway.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


Children of the Father:

Hebrews written in Hebrew language:

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going
before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb. 7:18 KJV from the Greek

The Hebrew version reads:

To me in this there was a CARRYING AWAY of the first by a weak
work and by drunkeness and that which is not worthy for use.
-Heb. 7:18 HRV

The Hebrew word for "carrying away" is GISTAL'KAH. Jeremiah
uses a form of this SAME word to describe the Babylonian captivity
(Jer. 29:1, 4, 16, 20, 31, 46:19, 48:7, 11, 49:3).
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


//Yes!! No New Testament for at least 200 to 250 approx, even apostates agree with this!Why dont we do the same? Can this cause us to not preach as the Apostles?

The Apostles & their successors did not preach the Torah but the Gospel Message of Christ crucified and risen from the dead. What they taught is found in their Epistles.

They used the Torah at Jewish synagogues with the purpose of proving that Jesus was the promised Messiah. But not every place they presented the Gospel message had a Jewish audience.


As stated before Paul was a Torah man par excellence and considered his blameless adherence to the Torah laws as simply rubbish. Php. 3:4
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Menopause


Oh yeah almost forgot to finish answering the question of,

What is my denomination?

My denomination is of faith:

To enter salvation in Christ!

My denomination is of faith:

Leading unto righteouness of Christ!

My denomination is of obedience like Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Christ, they obeyed Torah!

In other words, my denomination is of Faith and obedience to His Torah= teachins and instructions from our Father out of love :)

My denomination is of the New covenant principles of the Torah!! :)

Hope this answers the question :)
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


//Did you know that the book of Hebrews was written in Hebrew by Paul, even according to "church fathers"

What Church fathers? Your reference on this would be greatly appreciated as by the time of Christ, Hebrew was a dying language).

Both the author is unknown (Eusebius, Origen, 3rd century - "who actually wrote the epistle, only God knows"), as well as the designated audience (likely Jews in Italy familiar with the sacrificial & temple worship).

In any case,the objective of the author was attempting to persuade the readers of the inferiority of the Mosaic system and possibly to dissuade church members from returning to Jewish practices - something you apparently wish others to do.
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


Children of the Father:

Did you know that the book of Hebrews was written in Hebrew by Paul, even according to "church fathers"

Let's examine the vese Hebrews 7:12, IN HEBREW!!!

The word for "change/changed" here in the Hebrew is
SHENISHTANA from the verb root SH-N-H (Strong's 8131) meaning
"to repeat, to do a second time" thus the Hebraic Roots Version reads:

It is saying that according to which there is a repetition of the
office of the priesthood, of necessity it is saying there is a
repetition of the Torah.
- Heb. 7:12 HRV

Surprised!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Children of Father:

Did you know that the book of Hebrews was written in Hebrew by Paul

Examine the vese Hebrews 7:12, IN HEBREW!!!

The word for "change/changed" here in the Hebrew is
SHENISHTANA from the verb root SH-N-H (Strong's 8131) meaning
"to repeat, to do a second time" thus the Hebraic Roots Version reads:

It is saying that according to which there is a repetition of the
office of the priesthood, of necessity it is saying there is a
repetition of the Torah.
- Heb. 7:12 HRV

Eat of the unleavened bread in these last days, because it is impossible to deceive the VERY ELECT!

Are you of the very elect that ultimately cannot be deceived? 144,000 gentiles included!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Christian Penpals


For truth seekers:
Didnt the Apostles preach the Gospel with The Law and The Prophets, into the Church age(so called)?

Yes!! No New Testament for at least 200 to 250 approx, even apostates agree with this!
Why dont we do the same? Can this cause us to not preach as the Apostles?

If apostles used The Law and The Prophets to share the Gospel would they contradict Scriptures message of the Gospel?

No, the bereans made sure they preached Gospel in accordance to The Law and The Prophets!!!Act 17:11

True messengers do the same and figure out the added subtracted that causes a powerless faith and no Law of Righteousness for His Children, not be used to enter Salvation!!
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


The Gospel message is that our sins have been paid for at the Cross by Christ who has become "the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption". (1 Cor. 1:30)

It is His righteousness that has been imputed to us and if we strive for perfection thinking that is what pleases God then you have fallen from grace. The works of the flesh can never please God.
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


//I believe in the power of HIS Holy Spirit to HELP ME walk after the law of righteousness which I dont complete perfectly while Im learning.

I am sure you will find that the Holy Spirit would have your to walk by faith (Romans 1:17 - the righteous shall live by faith) "for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them".Eph. 2:10

Phil.2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
---Lee1538 on 12/14/09


JackB:
I said: Now united to Him, I believe in the power of HIS Holy Spirit to HELP ME walk after the law of righteousness which I dont complete perfectly while Im learning.
Your post:
You just admitted to sin. Im glad you did that....///

JackB, IN CHRIST, because of His blood, Word, Ive become WITHOUT SIN and Im in HIS RIGHTEOUNESS:
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever ABIDES in HIM sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath NOT seen him, neither known him. :7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness IS righteous, even as He (Christ) is righteous.
Do you consent to the Apostles teaching?
---Paul9594 on 12/14/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Accounting


Wood,hay stubble=works of the flesh/law.

Gold, Silver and precious stone are. Have you bought GOLD tried in the FIRE that YOU may be rich? Rev 3


1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

# Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, ...

Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches, To him that overcometh ..., and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
---kathr4453 on 12/14/09


Wasn't the problem in the Galatian churches that of observance of OT (and Jewish)laws as an additional requirement for salvation?

Gal.3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

And is not the observance of the Jewish Sabbath on the same plane as circumcision, a work of the flesh?
---Lee1538 on 12/13/09


Paul said he built the foundation and we build upon that foundation. We are warned HOW WE BUILD. Some of our works will burn being wood hay and stubble( works of self)....( not fruit here) and some Gold silver and precious stone( those God prepared beforehand that we should WALK IN.

AND yes Gina our works of obedience will be rewarded...just as Jesus promised in the 7 letters in Revelation to the Churches.

Please know Titus says WE ARE zealous of GOOD WORKS. Don't confuse these with works of the LAW or works of the flesh...
---kathr4453 on 12/12/09


What are the works we must do??? The answer always leads to Jesus Christ. Your works are as filthy rags before God.
The answer is, your faith leads to great and wonderful works. Our works is our resting in HIM. Without HIM we can do nothing. HE is the way, the truth and the life.
---duane on 12/12/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Fundraisers


Works are the result of faith and love. We are saved and in JESUS we do works because we are saved.
---Samuel on 12/9/09
So true. Jesus said in Rev 22:12 "And behold, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be"

Although we are saved as a free gift, and nothing we can do can earn that, yet our works will determine our rewards. The more we have worked for the Lord, the larger our reward will be, if I understand Rev 22:12 correctly. Lets see what another version says:
Revelation 22:12 (Amplified Bible)
12Behold, I am coming soon, and I shall bring My wages and rewards with Me, to repay and render to each one just what his own actions and his own work merit
---Gina7 on 12/11/09


Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 16:27 (Amplified Bible)
27For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory (majesty, splendor) of His Father with His angels, and then He will render account and reward every man in accordance with what he has done.

James 2:14 (Amplified Bible)
14What is the use (profit), my brethren, for anyone to profess to have faith if he has no [good] works [to show for it]? Can [such] faith save [his soul]?
---Gina7 on 12/11/09


Eph.2:11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands, 12.That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

These verses are also important, they let us know where we were in time past, and where we are now
---michael_e on 12/11/09


Ephesians 2:10
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In reading Ephesians 2:8-9 it is important to keep verse 10 with these verses.

So then, what are these good works we are to walk in??
---kathr4453 on 12/11/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Ecommerce


It depends on how you believe,as what this means, it is strictly a pauline statement to mainly a gentile (with exceptions) church, part of the mystery program

Eph.2:8 For by grace(unmerited favor, somthing you don't deserve)are ye saved through faith(believing), and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works (something you do on your own), lest any man should boast.
---michael_e on 12/10/09


Jack B, great answers brother. We have enough people already wanting others to do what they do are they are less of a Christian. They should do what their heart desires towards Christ and been good neighbors, and allow others to do what they feel in their hearts. Sure discuss doctrines all day long but stop from sending anyone to hell on our own judgment. Only God knows the heart of the person anyway.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09


I agree we should encourage one another to do good works as Hebrews tells us, but some people here tend to do it in a way that makes them look more proper which is their main goal. Its not hard to determine who those people are. They even go as far as to judge someone as lost which we are instructed not to do.

As far as I know, the only way we have any place to do that is if a man's spirit does NOT confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or is born in the flesh...which is the spirit of antichrist.

I fall every day in my walk as Im sure most honest believers here do. What we dont need is to be condemning one another for imperfection since Christ never does that to us.
---JackB on 12/10/09


Now united to Him, I believe in the power of HIS Holy Spirit to HELP ME walk after the law of righteousness which I dont complete perfectly while Im learning, and my Spirit man gets stronger,


You just admitted to sin. Im glad you did that.

This is exactly why you cant make snap judgements as to who is saved and who is not and who has believed the truth and who has not.
---JackB on 12/10/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Jewelry


Part 2 Please post.

Here are some examples of Obedience of faith. Please look at the 7 letters to the Churches to get your reference. This is not fruit, however more fruit will be produced if obeyed.

Do not follow false teachers seems to be the main warning from...Guess who..Jesus Christ Himself.

Now, these are warnings to US.

It seems to me, glad-handing everyone with this " Let's all get along bologna is a serious problem with the Lord.

The Last letter, to today's professing Christian...would seem lack of OBEDIENCE to the fellowship of His sufferings, that will make you rich, etc is a major one.

Oh Mr. Osteen...are you listening??
---kathr4453 on 12/9/09


Paul, I missed part of your statement. Jesus (God in the flesh) did say for us to enter life we had to keep the commandments.

God also gave us the law of righteousness back in Moses' day also.

God knew not a single man or woman would be able to fulfil this law. He gave the law to us to show us our sin. It was never Gods intention for us to gain righteousness by His law. The law is your death sentence! Gods mercy and grace is your salvation, something that became quite obvious to the disciples after Christs comments in Matthew 19.

Grace presents a problem for a proud man however. He wont accept something he doesnt deserve without tryin to earn it...

That is what trips up a lot of people.
---JackB on 12/9/09


JackB:
You quote: Luke 18:9

On my own, I can never meet His standard of the Law righteousness/Torah.

But, first, because of HIS grace, I have FAITH, in the POWERS OF THE works of His death on the cross to: enter salvation by faith, and by faith I enter into righteousness being united to HIS righteousness.

Now united to Him, I believe in the power of HIS Holy Spirit to HELP ME walk after the law of righteousness which I dont complete perfectly while Im learning, and my Spirit man gets stronger, BUT BEING united to Him, HIS righteousness IS MINE!

Should I Have a powerless faith in the works of His death on the cross, as many teach, including you?
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


JackB:

You say:
Look at how the disciples reacted when Jesus sent this guy on his way. They were amazed and they asked Jesus...
"Who then can be saved?"//

Why are you so busy looking at other's reactions to His Christ's teachings?


The question is not how did His disciples REACTED TO His teachings? They were STILL learning and many times shocked at His teachings!

You did say you were a little slow:

The question is,
Do you consent to Christ teaching in Matthew 19:16-21, to enter LIFE?
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Furniture


When I look at James and see the comparison James uses for works of faith, I don't see the fruit of the spirit listed as a work.

Works would be obedience to those specific things God has spoken to you.

Just as He spoke to Abraham, and Abraham OBEYED God's voice. James calls this works. It's works of faith and that faith of obedience works through LOVE..not LAW. This is not works we think up to be do gooders. even unsaved people can do that.


Fruit on the other hand is the very life/righteousness and disposition of Christ in us.

I am talking about AFTER we are saved.
---kathr4453 on 12/9/09


Samuel, you said,
"Works are the result of faith and love. We are saved and in JESUS we do works because we are saved. Just like an apple tree produces apples because it is an apple tree."
I would have to disagree with you on your answer. Although the believer is responsible to work, the Lord actually produces the good works and spiritual fruit in the lives of believers (John 15:5, 1 Cor. 12:6) In John He is the vine and we are the branches, "He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit, for without Me you can do nothing" and in 1 Cor. "And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all"
---MarkV. on 12/9/09


As a Seveth day Adventist I am often accused of teaching that you work your way to heaven. But that is false.

Works are the result of faith and love. We are saved and in JESUS we do works because we are saved. Just like an apple tree produces apples because it is an apple tree.

A lemon tree can call itself an apple tree but the fruit it produces betrays it. So those who say they are Christians but live for themselves betray their true heart condition.
---Samuel on 12/9/09


Paul, Im not responding you your questions because your dont want answers. You want to prove yourself right. You are obviously a man that has put more faith in your obedience to God than your faith in Jesus Christs death and resurrection on your behalf.

Many have tried here to humble your heart and have failed. Im sure youve read Galatians dozens of times and it has never sunk in.

Obedience is wonderful! It really is! Whats not wonderful is when you think your obedience to God gives you the right to come here and make yourself look like one of the few true believers. You have a haughty spirit, not a humble one.

Since you're so fond of Jesus' words which man did He say would be justified in Luke 18:9-14?
---JackB on 12/9/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Laptops


Idk if my response to Matt 19 went through or not but I notice that you keep stopping at verse 21.

Look at how the disciples reacted when Jesus sent this guy on his way. They were amazed and they asked Jesus...

"Who then can be saved?"

They knew it wasnt possible to keep ALL of Gods commandments perfectly. Now look at how Jesus responded..

"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"
---JackB on 12/9/09


JackB:

It's funny how you avoid my questions.

JackB:
My question was not weather the man lied about keeping all commandments, he could have been lying but this is not the issue questioned:

The issue is Christs response!

When asked the DIRECT QUESTION, what GOOD thing must I do that I may have eternal life?
He Teaches:

Matthew 19:17-21
He said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt ENTER into LIFE, KEEP the commandments. He also said in Matt 19:21 follow me.

Do you consent to this teaching from His lips, regarding what GOOD thing one must do to enter LIFE?
---Paul9594 on 12/8/09


JACKB, There is NO hate in me whatsoever. I'm not a Politically Correct Christian. Nor do I subscribe to "I'm okay, You're okay" liberal philosophies. That is called is Relevant Truth. I only subscribe to Absolute Truth in Scripture.

NOW HERE ARE A BUNCH YOU WOULD DEFINITELY CALL HATEMONGERS!. I mean they even curse and argued amongst themselves. Christ called one guy Satan, Paul cursed out and went face to face with Peter. Did it again with Barnabus. All in Christain brotherly love. Hard for you to understand that one.

YOUR HATEMONGERS OF THE BIBLE...

JESUS CHRIST
PAUL
PETER
STEPHEN
JAMES
JOHN
BARNABUS

many many more...
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/7/09


Pastor I never said they didnt do good works. But those men knew they were not saved by them. Those works stemmed from the faith that saves and that is total reliance upon the Lord Jesus Christ on your behalf.

See you cant take a gospel like they believed and use it to hate. Because in order to believe the truth you must realize you are no better in Gods eyes than the people you hate, the people you claim you are better than.

One day youll see that.


Then maybe you'll lay off the caps button.....
---JackB on 12/7/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Lawyer


PastorJim, one day the Lord will knock you down as He did me back when I used to carry that hatred inside of me.

I had no peace in my heart, because I wasnt being merciful to anyone else. Jesus was a way for me to exalt myself. I was perfectly happy accepting Gods grace but was so wrapped up in right and wrong that I forgot to show love and mercy.

Is that how you really want the Lord to judge you, Pastor?

That is not the way for a Christian to live.
That is not the way Jesus himself lived.

Your focus seems to be on perfection rather than Gods grace. You will never find peace with God that way, Pastor. Never.
---JackB on 12/7/09


JACKB SAID. Sanctification is not works/fruit. Where did you read that sir?

It seems like you are a new christian and lack sciptural knowledge. So I give you a simple example.

After they were saved, Did any of this individuals NOT do works to bear fruits.

PAUL
PETER
STEPHEN
JAMES
JOHN

I WILL ANSWER FOR YOU...

PAUL- TOOK A MEDITERREAN CRUISE AFTER
PETER- TOOK HIS WIFE & KIDS TO VISIT ROME
STEPHEN- WAS TOO STONED TO DO ANYTHING
JAMES- JUST LOST HIS HEAD OVER DOCTRINE
JONN- VACATED ON PATMOS AND GOT A NICE TAN

IS THAT YOUR CASE.

Please study your bible.
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/6/09


PastorJim,

Sanctification is not works/fruit. Where did you read that sir?

Sanctification is being set aside and deemed Holy. That is not something we do on a daily basis, unless you expect me to believe we make ourselves holy...

Jesus Christ sanctified us by His death

Hebrews 10:10,14 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


That good sir is undoubtedly why you are so hard on yourself and fellow Christians. You have a false belief at your core.

Sanctification is done by God - not by man.
---JackB on 12/5/09


verse 10 must be included for the whole truth and to avoid a false workless gospel. lit.Gk: "Whoever for grace to be saved which because of faith, though this not from you, God the giver: not from performings, that not somebody might boast for their doing: WE ARE CREATED in Christ Jesus, ONTO GOOD WORKS, whom God who before prepared, THAT IN THEM WE SHOULD WALK." Ephesians 2:8,9,and 10.
---Eloy on 12/5/09


Read These Insightful Articles About Dedicated Hosting


Racheal:

Yes, it is the same. as Pastor Jim says, Jesus was the Passover Lamb slain for the whole world (Rom 5:8).

However, when you accept His sacrifice by faith it washes you in His blood once and for all time (Heb 10). Now when God looks upon you He sees the blood of Jesus applied to your life and "passes" you over in judgment.

There are no works (deeds, observances, acts) of the OT Law that can wash you completely. After Jesus made His sacrifice, the OT sacrifices can no longer take away your sins. The OT covenant of sacrifices has been obsoleted by a much better covenant, initiated by the blood of Jesus.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/4/09


YES Rachel it is the same. It is why Christ was Sacrificed on Passover.(NOT EASTER)

You are saved (Justification) by His Blood as were the Jews in The Passover. Passover tells the story of Jesus.

Now there is Santification (Fruits/Works). You rarely would see it today since all churches now are fake. So you need to look at the 1st century believers and apostles. They did not just say "HEY We're saved by Grace, not lets have Potlucks" (see my other posts on this).

You must help build the Temple which is Christ body and bear fruits. Obeying and glorifying The Father is our ONLY life.

The works are NOT what you hear in those Pseudo Churches. They are listed for you
in Scripture: Gal 5:22
---PASTOR_JIM on 12/4/09


Jim, that was a great answer to all three points she needed found in Eph. 2:8,9.
---MarkV. on 12/3/09


Copyright© 1996-2015 ChristiaNet®. All Rights Reserved.