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Rapture Versus Second Coming

If the rapture and the second coming is not the same thing. Can you name some of the differences?

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 ---mima on 12/3/09
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Paul is telling those in Thessalonians that the DAY of the Lord which is the day of His wrath has not yet come. These Christians were going through tremendous persecution and suffering and thought they were going through the Great tribulation period. Paul said not so and explains the order of events that must take place first. The Church is not called to WRATH but salvation in Christ.

Many think the falling away is the rapture. However the falling away is the falling away of professing Christians. Having a form of godliness but deny the Power. 2 Timothy 3, These who fall away will actually be those who are deceived by anti-christ.

He who is taken out of the way is the Body of Christ, sealed by the Holy Spirit.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


MarkV:

I have no problem with your statement.

The problem I have is your definition of "revealed". When is the son of perdition revealed?

Many have said "when the AOD is performed, at the midpoint of the week", then we know for sure that he is the lawless one.

I disagree. He is revealed when the covenant with the many is made at the beginning of the week. We know who he is then. Before the covenant, we knew him not. After the covenant, what he does in the rest of the week is well documented, including the AOD.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/14/09


Mark E: "Jerry: The Scriptures do not support your statement."

Yes they do.

The "abomination of desolation" Jesus spoke of was the destruction of Jerusalem (and the temple) in 70 AD by pagan Rome's Titus. The one "who opposes and exalts himself" and "sits in the temple as God" is the head of Papal Rome.

Show me the scriptural basis of 70th week futurism. Did you look up Francisco Ribera yet?
---jerry6593 on 12/15/09


Mark E, But lets talk about one passage you gave, 2 Thess. 2:4, here you forgot v. 1,2,3. One event happens before the other event:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one disceive you, "for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"
I hope you got that. Pauls words are quite clear, when it comes to the issue of which comes first, "Our gathering" or the appearance of the antichrist?
---MarkV. on 12/14/09


kathr4453 you are absolutely right
---michael_e on 12/14/09




Mark_ Eaton is correct. The Covenant during the great tribulation is described here. THIS IS WHY God's wrath comes upon Israel...called the time of JACOB's TROUBLE, certainly NOT the New Covenant,

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand, when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Again read Zechariah 12-14!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/14/09


I agree with---Mark_Eaton!!
---mima on 12/14/09


Both of these verses were FUTURE to them and have not been fulfilled yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/14/09

Absolutely. Even Daniel 7:2 - 5 is telling us about the beast/antichrist coming out of the SEA, just like in Revelation. If those who believe Daniel has been fulfilled, must also believe all Revelation is fulfilled.

69 weeks Jesus was cut off...the 70th week= the last week the final 7 years called the great tribulation unlike anything ever seen before in the history of mankind has NOT yet been fulfilled. If this all happened in 70 ad, then Jesus would have returned shortly after 70AD reigned for 1000 years and the New Heaven and Earth would be here in 1070AD. That would put all of us now on earth in HELL!!!! IMPOSSIBLE!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/14/09


Jerry:

The Scriptures do not support your statement. In fact, the Abomination of Desolation spoken about in Dan 9:27 is referred to by both Jesus and Paul,

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),"

2 Thes 2:4 "who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God."

Both of these verses were FUTURE to them and have not been fulfilled yet.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/14/09


Mark E, #2:
were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in A.D. 70. In a parallel text to Matthew 24:15, Jesus told His disciples, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Roman armies led by Prince Titus) then know that its desolation is near" (Luke 21:20), The disciples did see those very events" Because of the "abominations" of the Pharisees, Jesus told them, "see" your house is left to you desolate" (Matt. 23:38). Thus Gabriel's statement in Daniel 9:27 about Jerusalem becoming "disolate" was perfectly fulfilled in A.D. 70. That is why this prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish People (Daniel 9:24).
---MarkV. on 12/14/09




Brother Mark E, I did not have enough room to write all that I had to write. Space does not allow. And when I write two parts, only one comes out many times.
Lets get back to the middle of the week. After exactly three and a half years of holy ministry, Jesus Christ died on the cross, in the middle of the seven years, At the that exact moment of His death, "The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom (Matt. 27:51). This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the Perfect sacrifice had been offered.
"For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it disolate" We know that Jesus clearly applied this event to the time when His followers
---MarkV. on 12/14/09


Couldn't we just take one day at a time and look toward tomorrow?

But I suppose not, you people wouldn't have anything to debate.
---Steveng on 12/13/09


MarkV:

My JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh says:

Dan 9:27 "During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week, he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner of the altar, will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down on the appalling thing".

How you make this verse into Jesus is beyond comprehension. The new covenant is described in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, not Daniel. This is a covenant between the many and the prince who is to come.

God would never call anything Jesus does an "appalling abomination".
---Mark_Eaton on 12/13/09


Gina: I am so glad that you are contributing again!
---jerry6593 on 12/13/09


This act of God signified that all animals sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the Perfect Sacrifice had been offered. Gabriel said that the 70 week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Dan. 9:24).
---MarkV. on 12/11/09
MarkV is absolutely correct on this. The 70th week follows the 69th, it applies to Christ, and in no way shape or form applies to the AntiChrist in some separated future time. The remaining 3.5 years after Jesus died the apostles witnessed to the Jews, and with the stoning of Stephen, marked the end of the 7 year 70th week, and the work went to the Gentiles after this, after the 70th week ended. This entire 70 week prophecy applies to the Jews.
---Gina7 on 12/12/09


Mark E: The futurist theory of the antichrist (or the moving of the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy) was invented in the 17th century by Jesuit priests Francisco Ribera & Emmanuel Lacunza to counter the protestant reformation and take the heat off the Pope as the antichrist. The futurist, secret rapture, left behind nonsense didn't appear in protestantism until 19th century America. Thus, it was not taught by Jesus or the disciples. Look it up for yourself.
---jerry6593 on 12/12/09


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Mark E, the original text has "the covenant" listed. You have to read the complete Wordstudy which brings the original wording. Second, neither Satan or the Antichrist ever confirms any covenants.
Third, During the period of Christ public ministry of 3.5 years, the Masters focus was largely upon "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:6). After the resurrection and then for another 3.5 years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews (Acts 1-6). After that second 3.5 year period, in 34 AD, the bold Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (Acts 7). This infamous deed marked the then-ruling Jewish leaders final, official rejection of the gospel of our Savior. Then the gospel went to the Gentiles.
---MarkV. on 12/12/09


MarkV:

You are plucking words out of sentences and trying to make meaning from them.

First, in Dan 9:27 the NASB reads "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week". Not THE covenant. Secondly, the duration of the covenant is also stated. The covenant is for only one week.

If the week has been satisfied then what is listed in Dan 9:24 would be completed "to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy".

Jesus completed most of this. However, vision and prophecy was not completed until the Revelation was written, outside the time of the 70th week.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/11/09


Mark E, going back to Daniel, "In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" After exactly three and a half years of holy ministry, Jesus Christ died on the cross, "in the midst of the week (in the middle of the seven years). At the exact moment of His death, "the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom..." (Matt. 27:51). This act of God signified that all animals sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the Perfect Sacrifice had been offered. Gabriel said that the 70 week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (Dan. 9:24).
---MarkV. on 12/11/09


Steven G, you say I don't understand the sinful nature and you give your reasons by saying that if a child is born without guidness he grows like an animal, and animals do not have morals. Is that your explanation of someone born with a sin nature? Hello Steven, anyone there?
They are born spiritually dead Steven. Hello? Dead to the things of God. Not animals with no morals. I have not seen a human animal yet in my life. They might act as animals but are not animals. They are lost people without God. Born in sin, they are not sinners because they sin, they sin because they are sinners. You need to go back to a good church again. You have been too long without a church.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09


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first, II tim 2:15 must be understood with the right wording.
Gal.3:17. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after,(the 1st covenant) cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.(what was the promise? a nation of people a land and a king)they still don't have all their land and they don't have their king, but they will have)
Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ(earthly ministry) was a minister of the circumcision(israel) for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (not fulfilled yet because of the church boc)
---michael_e on 12/10/09


MarkV: "Steven G, again you are mistaken,"

Compared to your doctrine or God's.

"it is not the devil who deceives a person and tells him there is no God. People are born that way Steven, with a sin nature spiritually dead,"

You do not understand the sinful nature of a newly born. If a child grows without guidance, he grows like an animal and animals do not have morals. They do things by instinct. Feral children fall under this catagory.
---Steveng on 12/10/09


Mark E, when discussing this topic you need to start at the beginning and not jump from one place to another. That's why I had not mentioned Matt. yet. But lets continue with Daniel first. In the KJV Daniel 9:27 doesn't say "a covenant" or peace treaty, but "the covenant" which applies to the New Covenant. Nowhere in the Bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word "Covenant" is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not to the antichrist. "He shall confirm the covenant with many" Jesus Christ said, "This is My blood of the New covenant, which is shed for many" Matt. 26:28. Here Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09


MarkV, Jerry:

Without a gap your theory of the 70 weeks falls on its face.

Even Jesus confirmed this.

Matt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place let the reader understand)"

Jesus told us to watch for something in the 70th week which has not happened. But remember what the Disciples had just asked Him.

Matt 24:3 "...saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

His coming or the end of the age. Has either of these thing happened?

Neither has the 70th week.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/10/09


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Jerry, I agree, I've read what you have said. First the seventy weeks does not make any sense. Second, the stated purpose of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is "cut off" (refering to Christ's death), the text says, "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." In the past, this has been consistently applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Roman armies led by prince Titus in AD 70. "He shall confirm the Covenant," Paul said "the covenant" was "confirmed before by God in Christ" Gal. 3:17. Jesus came to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Romans 15:8).
---MarkV. on 12/10/09


Steven G, again you are mistaken, it is not the devil who deceives a person and tells him there is no God. People are born that way Steven, with a sin nature spiritually dead, to all the things of God. Again you give Satan more credit then he deserves. He deceived Eve, and because of the curse all are born spiritually dead. Satan does not have to do anything to them, all really belong to him until God reaches out and takes you from that path, and brings you to a spiritual life in Christ. This is not "Dualism" where God and Satan are battling each other and whoever wins gets the prize. Only God wins. The devil does what God allows or permits him to do.
---MarkV. on 12/10/09


MarkV: I believe that you are correct about the 69/70 week prophecy of Daniel. The most abominable thing about this futurist rapture theory (in my eyes) is that it takes the wonderful prophecy of the earthly ministry of Jesus and assigns it to the antichrist.
---jerry6593 on 12/10/09


MarkV: "Steven G, I understand the passages about our spiritual battles with the demons and satan, but you give credit to the devil for everything. Lets not take the responsibility away from the sinners themselves."

Who do you think decieves the sinners? Satan. It is he who decieves people that there isn't a God. Satan even tried to decieve Jesus. How much more will he decieve a regular man? Like I said before, don't underestimate the power of Satan.
---Steveng on 12/9/09


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the second coming is part of the propecy program Acts 3:21 the rapture is part of the mystery program Rom 16:25 kept secret since the world began, revealed only to paul. why didn't jesus reveal it? it wouldnt have been a secret.
---michael_e on 12/9/09


Steven G, I understand the passages about our spiritual battles with the demons and satan, but you give credit to the devil for everything. Lets not take the responsibility away from the sinners themselves. Pretty soon he is responsible for everything which take away the responsibility of the believer or unbeliever himself who is responsible. The devil does not run the lives of genuine believers, the Holy Spirit does. He does not make anyone do anything, the person make the choice. It is his responsibility. You give him more credit then he deserves.
---MarkV. on 12/8/09


MarkV: "Steven G, how do you include Satans hand on this topic?"

You underestimate the power that Satan truly has upon mankind. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The workings of Satan, that old serpent, the Devil, with all power and signs and lying wonders, who deceives the whole world - one person at a time. Don't allow Satan to take advantage of you for we are not ignorant of his devices.
---Steveng on 12/8/09


Mark E, without going into Matt and other passages, my point was, why call it 70 weeks when it was not seventy weeks but 69, and 2000 years later one week? No hint of a gap was given by Daniel. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty -two weeks, so why insert one between the 69 and 70th week? If you have a child to be in bed in 70 minutes, you obviously would mean 70 consecutive minutes. What if five hours later your fully awake son would say, "but dad, I know 69 minutes have passed, but the 70th minute hasn't started yet?
Also, Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year tribulation, a "rebuild" Jewish temple, or any "antichrist." And I haven't got into Matthew yet.
---MarkV. on 12/8/09


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Amen Steveng

Satan who is the father of lies and god of this world through his false ministers of light TEACH an antichrist doctrine to lead people AWAY from God not to God

rapture fantasy overlooks the plain WARNING from Christ to watch and pray that one may be counted worthy to escape

the warning is clear action yet rapture teaches no responsibility - just let Christ fall from your lips and your "safe"

it's amazing how the word "escape" has been subtly changed to have a new meaning of catching up or whisking away or taking out ...just like Eve was deceived so are many "christians" today who claim christianity YET follow MORTAL men and the rapture fable
---Rhonda on 12/8/09


Amen Steveng

Satan who is the father of lies and god of this world through his false ministers of light TEACH an antichrist doctrine to lead people AWAY from God not to God

rapture fantasy overlooks the plain WARNING from Christ to watch and pray that one may be counted worthy to escape

the warning is clear action yet rapture teaches no responsibility - just let Christ fall from your lips and your "safe"

it's amazing how the word "escape" has been subtly changed to have a new meaning of catching up or whisking away or taking out ...just like Eve was deceived so are many "christians" today who claim christianity YET follow MORTAL men and the rapture fable
---Rhonda on 12/8/09


MarkV:

If you read Luke's account you will see the gap.

Luke 21 is a parallel passage to Matt 24, yet it contains a section that is only contained in Luke, verses 20-24.

In the section Jesus says "Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled".

What a bomb-shell of a statement. What does this "times of the Gentiles" mean?. Paul explains it in Rom 11 in the "grafting" passage. We the church are grafted into the old olive tree during this "time of the Gentiles" until it is completed.

This my friend, is your gap.

Otherwise, the Disciples of Jesus should have expected Him to return seven years after He left.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/8/09


George, you're right. The entire prophecy of Daniel covers a period of 70 weeks. Logic requires that "seventy weeks" refers to one consecutive block of time, in other words, to seventy straight sequential weeks. The truth is, there is no example in Scripture (or anywhere else) of a stated time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive, 40 days and 40 nights, 400 years in Egypt, 70 years of captivity. Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn't, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week. It is illogical to insert 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself.
---MarkV. on 12/8/09


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Steven G, how do you include Satans hand on this topic? Is he Omniscient? I don't think so. Why can it not be only the persons been wrong? Why give glory to Satan? He cannot be everywhere at the same time.
I don't believe in the pre-trib, post-trib or any kind of tribulation, but that is only because of what I have studied or have been taught, that all Christians go through Tribulation, some much worse then others. And as you said, many in China, Africa, and many other places are going through Tribulation already and have gone through it for many years. Satan is not going around teaching every single person to think a certain way. He is not Omniscient, only God is.
---MarkV. on 12/8/09


\\ However, you may interpret the passage in Revelation however you want. The majority of Christians disagree with you though.

Want other things in Revelation do you take literally?
---Ignatius on 12/5/09

I take no stock in the majority of christians. Was it not "christians" who where involved in the Jesus Seminar of 1985?\\

Hardly a majority of Christians in the Jesus Seminar.

But it WAS a "majority of Christians" that were responsible for the very Bible you are appealing to.

So clearly, you DO take stock in them--at least when it's convenient for you.
---Cluny on 12/8/09


Would someone please explain where the 7 years (of tribulation) comes from? Thank you.
---George on 12/7/09


It is so vain for end-time christians to think that they are more special than all the other christians and godly people throughout all history who, even to this day, experienced tribulations and persecutions. What makes you think you are so special to escape end-time tribulations foretold in Scripture?

Today's christians fear what is to come. They imagine in their mind a rapture, a false escape, because they do not have the confidence in their belief that God will protect them during the coming tribulation, and is even here now. They twist verses to comfort themselves of a false rapture. Satan surely has his hand in this false hope.
---Steveng on 12/7/09


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Most christians believe that the purpose of the repature is to escape the tribulations, the persecutions, the wrath that is to come, and is already here.

If this is true, why are the dead taken up, too? Will they feel the pain and presecutions while in the grave?

Todays christians in the civilized world (USA, Europe) sit behind their computers and the comfort of their homes without realizing the extent of persecutions of christians in other countries including China, India, the Arab world.

It's high time for you pre-trib chrisitan believers to get off your pedestal and really start praying to God the Father to protect you, your faimily and your friends.
---Steveng on 12/7/09


Sooo true, Eloy, well put!
---Mary on 12/7/09


Many people make the promise of Christ's return more difficult then what it actually is. When Christ comes in the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God, that is his physical 2nd coming because he already physically came here to earth at his 1st coming when he was born in Bethlehem, and he physically ascended back up into his heven from where he came down: and when the trumpet of God sounds this is the rapture awakening the dead to rapture up and then we which are alive on top of the earth will also be raptured up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
---Eloy on 12/7/09


There are no scriptures to support Christ returning BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP
---Rhonda on 12/5/09

When is this LAST TRUMP in Scripture? Will you please show it to me and the chronology of it?

I see a trump in 1 Thes 4. Is that it?

Ever hear of the Festival of Trumpets (Lev 23)? The Festival marks the beginning of the harvest. It is started by the blowing of the trumpets to call together the people, a setting apart and cleansing, and that all work comes to an end.

The prophetic fulfillment of the Festival of Trumpts has yet to occur. Many see the 1 Thes 4 trumpet blast as the beginning of the Festival.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/7/09


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However, you may interpret the passage in Revelation however you want. The majority of Christians disagree with you though.

Want other things in Revelation do you take literally?
---Ignatius on 12/5/09

I take no stock in the majority of christians. Was it not "christians" who where involved in the Jesus Seminar of 1985?

I take everything in the Bible literally unless it makes no sense to.

If you do not read the Bible in this way, then EVERYTHING in it can be misunderstood to be symbolic or allegoric. If everything can be allegoric or symbolic, then our faith in vain.

The Revelation is no different. If it says 1000 years, why would that be symbolic?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/7/09


What do you make of this?
---Cluny on 12/5/09

Both of these passages have metaphors in them.

The word "AS" or "LIKE" identifies the metaphors. We identify both these verses as using the "one thing is SYMBOLIC of another" technique. Therefore, the 1000 years in them only symbolizes something else.

The passage in Revelation 20 does not contain metaphors and has no such symbolism. We can view the 1000 years as being the literal value.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/7/09


Cluny: "Suddenly in Revelation, the most symbolic, figurative, and allegorical book in the Bible..."

What do you make of this?"

Only to modern man does Revelation seem "symbolic, figurative, and allegorical." This is because modern man has become too knowledgable for his own good. John wrote what he saw in the language he knew best. Try to define a helicopter, computer, washing machine/drier or other modern day appliance to a person in the year 4,009.
---Steveng on 12/5/09


Cluny: "...after TWO WARNINGS not to take 1000 as earthly years, these suddenly become earthly years?

What do you make of this?"

The verses you make out as a warning is not a warning. They are simply similes comparing God time with man's time. It's the same as His (God's) thoughts are not like our thoughts. God cannot use worldly language do define who He is so He uses similes and metaphores. Do you think God is a hen? Of course not (at least I hope not) But in the bible he says He is LIKE a hen protecting his flock of chicklets.
---Steveng on 12/5/09


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Suddenly in Revelation, the most symbolic, figurative, and allegorical book in the Bible, after TWO WARNINGS not to take 1000 as earthly years, these suddenly become earthly years?
*****

and where in the two scriptures you quote does it make YOUR claim of a "warning"?

It doesn't

and where in the two scriptures you quote does it say "earthly years"?

It doesn't

True Christians REIGN with Christ in the millennium ...if not than Hebrews 2:8 is a LIE

either believe ALL of Holy Scriptures Matt 4:4 with Christ RULING ALL nations in Gods Kingdom at His Return

or follow mens LYING traditions Mark 7:6-7 lies about Gods Kingdom reduced to the fable of being in one's heart
---Rhonda on 12/5/09


The rapture is antichrist to scripture and denies resurrection of ALL 1Corin 15 on the LAST DAY (The LAST Trump) when Christ returns

There are no scriptures to support Christ returning BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP

When Christ RETURNS TO he will RULE all nations on earth and establish Gods Kingdom on Earth True Christians will reign with HIM during 1000 year millennium Rev 5:10 20:4, 6.

those who deny the millennium DENY Gods Kingdom on Earth because they believe and teach the lie of heaven and that Christ rules earth today which is antichrist to scripture that states Satan rules earth today 2Corin 4:4
---Rhonda on 12/5/09


And as the Church will be here during the Tribulation, the marriage supper--which is anticipated in the Eucharist--will be celebrated after it.
---Cluny on 12/3/09

You sound like a Catholic to me. Do you believe in a literal Hell? Why would the Church go through through the tribulation when it is to punish the wicked world?
---Pastor_Herb on 12/5/09


The statement,
"\\
There is no such thing as an earthly literal millennium.
---Cluny on 12/4/09" goes directly against the following versus. Revelation 2:2-7 two long to fit but you can read them for yourself. Six different times 1000 years mention in these versus.
---mima on 12/5/09


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\\
There is no such thing as an earthly literal millennium.
---Cluny on 12/4/09

What do you make of this?

Rev 20:4 \\

Psalm 90/89LXX: "For 1000 years in Your sight are as nothing, or as a watch in the night."

2 Peter 3:8: "A day with the Lord is as 1000 years, and 1000 years as a day." (Note the context: the coming of Christ and the Last Things.)

Have you ever read these passages?

Suddenly in Revelation, the most symbolic, figurative, and allegorical book in the Bible, after TWO WARNINGS not to take 1000 as earthly years, these suddenly become earthly years?

What do you make of this?
---Cluny on 12/5/09


Mark Eaton-

I have, yet I have also read the following:

"Beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"(2 Peter 3:8).

Second, the Book of Revelation is a highly symbolical book, and shouldn't be taken literally or as a footprint of will occur at the end of age. Unfortunately, very few know the true meaning of the Book of Revelation, not the garbage of the Left Behind series being sold in the Pop-Evangelical communities.

However, you may interpret the passage in Revelation however you want. The majority of Christians disagree with you though.

Want other things in Revelation do you take literally?

In IC.XC.,
---Ignatius on 12/5/09


\\ One reason why the rapture must occur is because Jesus promised it. Read carefully John 14:1-3,"1-Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2-In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3-And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

Read again verse three is this not a description of the rapture?\\

"Rapture" does not mean "pre-tribulation rapture."

The Biblical doctrine is NOT pre-trib millennial.
---Cluny on 12/4/09


There is no such thing as an earthly literal millennium.
---Cluny on 12/4/09

What do you make of this?

Rev 20:4 "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I {saw} the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand, and they came to life and REIGNED WITH CHRIST FOR A THOUSAND YEARS"

Did you ever read the Revelation?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/4/09


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---mima on 12/4/09
It could be if there was such thing as a rapture but he was talking about when you die
he will come for you the same as paul was talking about

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are (ASLEEP), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Thessalonians is about reassuring that the dead in Christ will already be in heaven.

Jesus will come back a second time just like he left to judge the world and glorify the church.
---exzucuh on 12/4/09


One reason why the rapture must occur is because Jesus promised it. Read carefully John 14:1-3,"1-Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2-In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3-And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also."

Read again verse three is this not a description of the rapture?
---mima on 12/4/09


---Joel on 12/4/09 True, we do not know the day or the hour but Jesus did give us a hint.
Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye
(THINK NOT)
one thing that people do is they think like Martha.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

They look to the future and do not realize that they miss God because Jesus is NOW!

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection,

Today about 300,000 people are going to see Jesus just like every day, because that many people die every day in an hour they think not.
---exzucuh on 12/4/09


\\
After the tribulation comes at least three major things. Judgment of the nations (goat/sheep), Rule and Reign for 1000 years from Jerusalem, and also the marriage supper? ...

If memory serves me correctly the ancient Jewish marriage ceremony normally included time "alone" for the couple. We get our honeymoon from this feature. Pre-Trib theory says this time alone is during the Tribulation. \\

Wrong.

There is no such thing as an earthly literal millennium.

This is utimately a kingdom that comes to an end.

Jesus's Kingdom HAS no end.

Furthermore, it's a kingdom of This World.

Jesus said His Kingdom is NOT of this world.

Pre-trib theory is full of holes.
---Cluny on 12/4/09


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Jesus said " Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming" (Matt. 25:13).
---Joel on 12/4/09


the marriage supper--which is anticipated in the Eucharist--will be celebrated after it.
---Cluny on 12/3/09

Please help me clarify this in my mind.

After the tribulation comes at least three major things. Judgment of the nations (goat/sheep), Rule and Reign for 1000 years from Jerusalem, and also the marriage supper? Does this also include the Bema Seat judgment for believers?

If memory serves me correctly the ancient Jewish marriage ceremony normally included time "alone" for the couple. We get our honeymoon from this feature. Pre-Trib theory says this time alone is during the Tribulation.

When does this time alone come in your theory if Christ is busy ruling the world and doing these other things?
---Mark_Eaton on 12/4/09


---Butch on 12/4/09 You are on the right path Butch, You have ears to hear, and have been listening.
---exzucuh on 12/4/09


butch on 12-4 absolutely right
II pet 3:15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation, even as our beloved brother PAUL also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you, 16.As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
---michael_e on 12/4/09


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What are we all doing arguing about the rapture or tribulations? Christ told us not to worry about this stuff, but to worry about the people who don't know him and to make disciples of them. Arguing about this stuff is going against what he said and to me it could be sin!
---Butch on 12/4/09


Matt34:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, When the last trumpet blasts it will be loud and noticeable which is the time when true beleivers will meet the Lord in the air 1 Corinthians 15:52 And the Bible says nothing about a 3rd coming
---Rodney on 12/4/09


\\
The Church only is the bride of Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be with the church only. No old testement saints will be the bride of Christ, nither will those who are saved during the 7 yr trib.\\

You're wrong, Pastor Herb.

The Old Testament Righteous will be there, too.

And as the Church will be here during the Tribulation, the marriage supper--which is anticipated in the Eucharist--will be celebrated after it.
---Cluny on 12/3/09


The Church only is the bride of Christ. The marriage supper of the Lamb will be with the church only. No old testement saints will be the bride of Christ, nither will those who are saved during the 7 yr trib. People will be saved differently during the tribulation. The Holy Spirit will not be here during that time. When the saints are gone, so is the Holy Spirit. So the pre-trib rapture makes perfect sense.
---Pastor_Herb on 12/3/09


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To me personally, the post-trib makes more sense unfortunately: how can you have a marriage feast with a large portion of the bride "stuck" on earth and part of her in Heaven? :)
---Mary on 12/3/09


Cluny, the story about the baptist minister sounds exactly right, and scary true.

Many years ago a church was interested in me coming to their church as a "pastor," but they wanted to hear that stuff, and I couldn't do, even though I had learned that stuff. Yikes.

I have personally heard a pastor say he preached stuff and allowed stuff because "the people wanted it," even though he didn't believe it.
That's one reason I am hard, maybe too hard, on "churches" because they can do that kind of thing. What about the young seeking believer who doesn't know better. Talk about confusion!
---Rod4Him on 12/3/09


The second coming wrote about in acts 1:11 and zech 14:4 part of God's propecy program made known since the world began (Acts 3:21) is quite different than
1 thess. 4:14-17 and 1 cor. 15:51-54 part of the mystery program, kept secret since the world began. if they are different they are not the same
---michael_e on 12/3/09


As Jesus Himself prayed, "I ask not that you take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one."
---Cluny on 12/3/09

I hear this Scripture quoted again and again as proof of no rapture.

Yet the people who use it never answer the questions I post back to them.

If there is no Pre-trib or Mid-Trib rapture, when does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb happen and who will attend?

You can't have a marriage if the bride is absent.
---Mark_Eaton on 12/3/09


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easy to see that there is a big difference in 1 thess. 4:14-17 meeting the lord in the air and acts Acts 1:11 when he comes back the same as he went. plus Zech.14:4 his feet shall stand upon the mount, the same place as acts 1:11. meeting him in the air and meeting him on the ground are not the same
---michael_e on 12/3/09


\\It would be nice to all be delivered from the troubles and persecution of the events leading to the "end" of this earth but I think it is wishful thinking:)\\

As Jesus Himself prayed, "I ask not that you take them out of this world, but keep them safe from the evil one."

The rapturist prays, "Don't listen to Jesus! You take us out of this world!"

There was a Baptist minister who privately admitted to an Orthodox priest of my acquaintance that he had to preach the pre-trib rapture, or he'd be kicked out. It's what the people WANTED to hear.
---Cluny on 12/3/09


I do not see anything in scripture that separates the "rapture" from Christ's final return. I do like Cluny's description of the final event. It would be nice to all be delivered from the troubles and persecution of the events leading to the "end" of this earth but I think it is wishful thinking:)
---jody on 12/3/09


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