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Does God Blind People

Does Biblical predestination mean that God blinds certain people to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, giving them no hope of salvation?

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Markv,
You conveniently IGNORE in Acts 4:38 where it says ordained to. Do you understand what that means?

It means God's truth was told to them and they believed and they were saved, brought into eternal life by the true word of God. God did not give them a heart to believe first. They heard and had faith in what they heard! Ill tell you again...Faith IS BELIEVING.... God DOES NOT make you believe anything.
The Bible says that those who choose NOT to believe, God gives them over to a reprobate mind. He allows them to sink into their unbelief of him. God has never in the entire Bible made anyone believe him. They either chose to or not. Now you are going to always give scripture instead of your opinion? that's new!
---miche3754 on 12/26/09


Jack B and Miche, go to "Is God in control" blog this one is running out of space. Please be patient since I cannot answer everyone correctly and timely. Putting Scripture down takes time. Please don't make statements that this or that is not possible without Scripture. As I can see much of what is put down is out of context of the message God wanted to convey.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


I can answer one at a time. Sorry. Please post passages instead of opinions. Then we can check Scripture.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


Jack B, 2 Peter 2:20-22, does not state that knowing the knowledge of the Truth a person is saved. Many have the knowledge and never commit their lives to Christ. In the context those passages describes the perversion and defection of the false teachers. They professed the Christian experience (the way of righteousness) (Matt. 21:23), and even had access to the true teachings of Scripture. But by their lives demonstrated that they ultimately had chosen to reject Christ (Heb. 10:26-31). Such false teachers as Peter was describing were not made outside Christianity. They are always bred in the Church, half in and half out, but eventually they reject the truth and try to seduce others in their attempt to fufill their self-gratification.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


I just wanted to let everyone know that my last post was directed at Markv.
And he still has not answered my question, as usual, he purposefully dodges ANY of my questions becaue if he answers them biblically, he finds that the doctrine he follows is false.
So, if you please Markv, answer my question from earlier. Others can answer if they want to. In fact I appreciate them, but I expect one from Markv.

Markv, are you saying that God predestined Adam and Eve to sin?
My bible says they had the choice to obey God.
What does yours say?
---miche3754 on 12/26/09




Jack B. Acts 13:48, God declare's: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God, And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

Phil. 1:29 "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him" but also suffer for His sake"

2 Tim. 2:25,26 "God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the Truth, and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
All who are lost (with freewill) are captured by the devil. And they are doing the will of the devil. God has to grant us the ability to believe by faith in Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


Jack and Lee are very right.
I watched my Dad waste away with cancer.
But you know what, God revealed that he allowed my Dad to get cancer just to bring dad back to HIM! My Dad as a child loved God, but because of some things that happened in his past, he moved away from God. God USED the cancer to rescue my Dad from the eternal fires of hell even as my Dad was dying! My Dad made his peace with God.
Who are you to say that God made some to burn in hell? You can't, because in the end every knee shall bow and EVERY MOUTH will proclaim Christ as LORD! Thats God's intention from the beginning.
So don't be fooled, you don't know who God will rescue. You can't say God won't rescue everyone because its God who does the rescuing and not us.
---miche3754 on 12/26/09


If God wanted total control over all things He wouldn't have created man or angel with the ability to reason and make their own decisions. He wouldnt tell us in His word to decide whom we will serve if He simply wanted puppets.

Being apart from God doesnt blind us to all things. As the book of Romans tells us, the Gentiles who dont have the law even know right from wrong. God created us with common sense.

The inability to think for yourself is how people get locked into cults. And yes I do believe a child of God can fall prey to a cult. I also believe the Lord can deliver them out of it.

How can one be held accountable for their actions when they arent in control of their actions? Thats common sense. Is it not?
---JackB on 12/26/09


2Peter2:20-22

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again, and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


This proves that God doesnt control the "elect". A man can turn from Christ AFTER he has accepted Him if he chooses.

Puppets still?
---JackB on 12/26/09


Kathr, yes, even me. I was lost too. I do not exclude anything. Other then I give that glory to God. I would have never come to Christ if God had not awaken me. I would still be lost. I didn't recognized my fall, I didn't know God. I was dead to all the things of God. I heard of Him and knew many that did know Him or said they did, as you do. I always called them holy rollers. I didn't know what rebirth was. No one had ever mentioned that to me. And even if they did, it only went in through one ear and out the other. It wasn't until God broke my will, convicted me of my sin, and gave me faith to believe that I confessed Jesus as Lord of my life. I know where I came from Kathr, and I know how I got here, it was through the grace of Almighty God.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09




Jack B, 2: The lost are at enmity against God. The unbelievers problem is much deeper than acts of obedience, which are merely forward manifestations of inner fleshly compulsions. His basic inclination and orientation toward gratifying himself are directly hostile towards God. ---MarkV. on 12/25/09

MarkV, ALL of us, from Adam's transgression on ARE exactly this, even YOU. You keep saying "they", "them" etc....

Why don't you say, OUR basic inclination was etc,and place YOURSELF with sinners. Then tell the TRUTH that you HEARD the Gospel FIRST...and THAT was God's POWER to bring you under conviction of sin and repentance...more powerful than our sin nature or satan,to SAVE us,rotten sinners!
---kathr4453 on 12/26/09


Jack B, Of course you don't like the idea that God should have control over all things. Most so call Christians don't. The so call Christian likes to be in control, and get this, when he calls himself save. They are the only one's who complain. The lost don't complain since they don't believe in God. The so call Christians don't want God to do the chosing. They want the freedom. They want to do the chosing and in control of their lives and distiney when they are suppose to be dependent upon God when they are saved. So the mind has not changed, they haven't bend their knees before God and thank Him for bringing them to life, for granting them repentance, and faith in His Son, Jesus Christ in order for them to believe and be saved.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


Jack B. #2: There is no twisting the word of God if you had studied who God was and is, and always will be, you would know "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our (believers) glory," which none of the rulers of this age knew, for had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" And get this:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him"
The lost don't love God, nor understand, seen, nor heard, because God has not given those things to them. "But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit" 1 Cor. 2:7-10.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09


Throughout history and even today man believes that physical impairments were caused by God and in later history to be caused by sins of parents or satan.
God was once and still is believed to be both good and evil.Man could somewhat justify his belief in the old days but since Jesus has revealed the Father(opened the eyes of the spiritual blind) through himself there is no reason a thinking person would consider it.Only thoughtless ones.
God remains to be the most misunderstood .
---earl on 12/26/09


Man is so eager for Gods wrath to come upon this world to repay those that we are bitter against, we would twist Gods image and leave out the greatest thing about him: His LOVE

Now we have a sovereign Christian God in the world who lacks the love even sinners have? How can you follow a belief such as this?

Junk like this (yes I said junk) is what leads people to commit mass suicide thinking God is calling them home. They have faith and hope but wont let in Gods love. That leaves them totally brainwashed.

Faith and hope are nothing without love.
(1 Cor 13)
---JackB on 12/25/09


Oh I agree with that, Lee, but a man being born blind and left that way for 30 or 40 years of His life so that Jesus could restore his sight to prove He was the Christ is a far cry different than making a man a sinner and leaving Him that way to be tormented in the fires of hell for eternity with no hope of escape. That is creating life with the specific intention of torturing it.

Are you guys seriously gonna tell me that you think thats the God of the Bible? Is the world that close to the end that people who call themselves "Christians" would support such a horrible belief?

Imagine your neighbor telling his daughter to swear and then beating her black and blue when she does. You would call him evil.
---JackB on 12/25/09


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Ex 4:11 Then the LORD said to him, "Who has made mans mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

John 9:2-3 And his disciples asked him, Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.

So God can be the cause of something bad for the purpose of His will.
---Lee1538 on 12/25/09


//JackB : Foreknowledge does not make future acts certain but only assumes them to be so, and it is a contradictions of terms to say that God foreknows as certain an event which in its very nature is uncertain.// _MarkV

Are you suggesting that God doesnt really know the future because its very nature is uncertain? That He's guessing?

If so, then I know why you believe what you do?

I believe God knows every single detail of what we would call our "future" as though it has already happened. Hes an eternal being. Not confined to our "time". He knew before creating us who would humble themselves as a sinner and accept Christ.
---JackB on 12/25/09


John 8:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." It is by the will of Jesus that we who were lost have life. The people who receive that life are here indentified as those who hear the Word and believe in the Father and the Son. They are the people who have eternal life and never will be condemned (Romans 8:1, Col. 1:13).
The lost:
"And this is the condemnation that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather thatn light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeeds should be exposed." John 3:19,20).
So who is able to walk to the light?
---MarkV. on 12/25/09


John 3:19,21 part 2: But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God" Only those who do the Truth are able to walk into the light, and the lost do not do the truth.
Only to those who God has chosen are able to understand Jesus when He is talking. "And He said, "to you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables that "Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand" Luke 7:10. Only those whom Jesus choose for them to hear, will hear and understand. The rest are kept in darkness. God always in control.
---MarkV. on 12/25/09


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Jack B, 2: The lost are at enmity against God. The unbelievers problem is much deeper than acts of obedience, which are merely forward manifestations of inner fleshly compulsions. His basic inclination and orientation toward gratifying himself are directly hostile towards God. Even the good deeds unbelievers perform are not truly a fulfillment of God's law, because they are produced by the flesh and from a heart that is in rebellion towards God. And as He said, "So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" which means that if they could call on God to change them, they would at least have something good in them. God has to change their hearts first, because without that act, the heart will never change.
---MarkV. on 12/25/09


Jack B : Foreknowledge does not make future acts certain but only assumes them to be so, and it is a contradictions of terms to say that God foreknows as certain an event which in its very nature is uncertain. Judas and his accomplices were left to fulfill their purposes, and they did as their wicked inclinations prompted them. Hence Peter charged them with the crime, but he at the same time declared that they had acted according to the purpose of God Him being delievered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hands of lawless men did crucify and slay"
He knows before you are born that you will be going to hell. God is not surprised every time someone comes to christ, He is certain who will.
---MarkV. on 12/25/09


Apparently my answer got there late hehe
---JackB on 12/24/09


Jack B, you did not answer the question. I know why, you cannot answer it because anything you say would contradicts what Scripture declares. That is the problem with man, they avoid, exclude, or just don't care about the Scriptures that speak about the workings of God. You already preconceive you know that Truth.
Just listen to the condition of lost man:
"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit......
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be, So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
---MarkV. on 12/24/09


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//Why was Jesus Christ foreknown before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin, when God had not created anyone yet? //

Because God knows the future. If you have foreknowledge of an event that doesnt mean you made it happen. God knew before He even created us that we would fall. Yet that didnt stop His plans to make man in His image. He had a remedy for the situation. He planned to send Jesus Christ into the world to redeem us. He also knew who would reject him and who would not. Jesus even knew it (Matt 8:22)

And its still Gods grace.

If you're drowning in a flood and someone throws you a lifeline, does it mean you saved yourself if you grab it? Or did the person who threw you the lifeline save you?
---JackB on 12/24/09


In order to believe what you do, MarkV, one would have to succumb to the belief that we as humans have a type of love that God is oblivious to.

Can the creation love more than the Creator?
Do we have more compassion and forgiveness than God Almighty?

Could you rescue 1 person from a fire and refuse to help the others but stand there and watch them burn instead?

Use your heart
---JackB on 12/24/09


I dont know how there can be any confusion about this when Romans 8:29 explains how it works...

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Foreknowledge
Predestination
The Calling
Justification
Glorification
---JackB on 12/24/09


If you believe all that garbbage then you don't have the right God. I suggest a study on the Nature, Character and Attributes of God.
---MarkV. on 12/24/09

Garbage? Why would God knowing ahead of time HIS PLAN to bring many Sons into GLORY (in other words, to be placed above anything Adam & Eve were) IN CHRIST as Joint Heirs have to interfere with Free will to begin with.

God PREDESTINED from before the foundation of the World to bring mankind to a higher status than man made out of clay....

Adam & Eve was just the beginning of His Plan, but certainly had nothing to do with saving only a secret few.
---kathr4453 on 12/24/09


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Jack B. #2: When you speak of Jesus and His feelings and His love, you have to remember you are talking about someOne who is completely human. He has the same feelings as we do, acted as any human would act, feel the same pain we did, eat and drank as any human. In Spirit He was God, but in His human form He was 100% human. So when He speaks He speaks as any human would. He didn't like what He saw, and healed many who were sick, He endured pain and emotions as we all do. He would even ask the Father for His will. If it was the 100% God speaking, He would never ask anything of the Father since He and the Father are a part of the Trinity, Godhead.
---MarkV. on 12/24/09


Did you know that you are made by God, you came from dirt. A by product of deterioration of nature and human waste. You live because God thought it was good to create man. He later said he was sorry he created man. The only reason you are here today was because Noah was righteous in God's eyes. And God saved him but the other seven came along for the ride because they obeyed Noah not because they were worth saving. When the people of the earth get to the place that there is no one who will receive his Son and obey him to get on the good old Gospel ship. He will send his Angels to burn them to a crisp and never blink an eye.
---exzucuh on 12/24/09


Jack B. first, Merry Christmans if you celebrated the birth of Christ.
Second, Can you answer the question then?
Why was Jesus Christ foreknown before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin, when God had not created anyone yet?
I guess you have an answer for that. Or do you think God was stupid and didn't know that men was going to choose sin? Or that men took Him by surprise and He suddendly had to come out with another plan since His first one went down the gutter because Adam sin? And that every time man makes a choice God learns something new? Is He not Omniscience?
If you believe all that garbbage then you don't have the right God. I suggest a study on the Nature, Character and Attributes of God.
---MarkV. on 12/24/09


"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"

Christ asked for forgiveness for those who were crucifying Him?

Why, Mark? Why would Christ pray for something that was obviously against the Father's will if those men were predestined to unbelief?

This is the same Jesus that the Bible says was in the beginning and created all things. Surely He would have known of the predestination of men.
---JackB on 12/23/09


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How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Dont know how to do red text (as in the words of Christ) or else I would have made these red. THAT is God.
---JackB on 12/23/09


Jack B, the answer to your question is that they were predestined to sin. MarkV***


WOW, how we casually throw around words...predestined to SIN?? Are you serious. The ONLY thing God Predestined was to CONFORM us to the Image of Jesus Christ.

MarkV, again you make unbiblical statements based on a false doctrine.

We are being CONFORMED to Christ's death..Philippians 3. This is an ACT of GOD, a promise of God to those who belong to Christ.

Now you take predestination to a more unbiblical definition. Predestination is the security of the Saint, the Promise of our sanctification and final glorification.
---kathr4453 on 12/23/09


//Jack B, the answer to your question is that they were predestined to sin.// -MarkV

Wow! I cant believe you just said that!

So then God tempts us to sin knowing we will fall to temptation and then punishes us with eternal fire for doing things the way He had planned?

Well all I can say, Mark, is I hope that God has elected your children or wife to salvation. But then again how will you know. Maybe they just want to be saved but werent picked. Maybe theyre just pawns on Gods chess board.

I'm not sure what that would do to your faith to know that the God of the Bible doesnt love them or have as much compassion on them as you do. I know you would give your life for your wife or child. Wouldnt you?
---JackB on 12/23/09


2 Thessalonains sure makes it sound like men have a choice.

Some make the wrong choice and for that reason God sends them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.

I dont think the Bible can be any more clear that its OUR choice whether or not we turn to God or choose to hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Thats a horrible belief that the Lord makes us sin and then punishes us for it. Thats not even the same god. Romans even explains that the Jews that are blinded by God are blinded because of unbelief. They made the wrong choice and stuck to the law and for that they are blinded to faith in Christ. They are still waiting for their Messiah
---JackB on 12/23/09


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Markv, are you saying that God predestined Adam and Eve to sin?

I am asking because my bible says they had the choice to obey God or not.

By the way you know I agree with Jack B on this right? right.
---miche3754 on 12/23/09


Jesus FIRST came to His own and His own received him not.... THEN the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09

Judah was his own. The "Good News" went to those, that would recognize it, the 10/11 Nations of Lost Sheep of House of Israel. You call them Gentiles. (Note woman at well as example of a lost unrecognized sheep of Divorced House/Nations).
Gentiles is a latinized mistranslation of word Nations/Ethnos: Using these originals would clear most N.T. confusion up.
But, when haven't Roman "Catholics" confused truth?
Redeeming,Salvation,forgiveness necessary for those that broke laws given too them only. Divorced wife. Widowed,cleansed by ultimate sacrifice. Heb 8:8.
---Trav on 12/23/09


Jack B, the answer to your question is that they were predestined to sin. A plan is a plan. and with God that plan is complete before Him. It is not subject to change or subject to mens actions. We are told that Jesus was indeed foreknown as a sacrifice for sin from the foundation of the world 1 Peter 1:20. And if He was foreknown from the foundation of the world as a sacrifice for sin, it was because Adam and all his descendents were going to sin. Otherwise there would be no mentioned of Christ foreknown as a sacrifice for sin before men was even created, Pretty simple stuff.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/09


Jack B, #2: I too like your answers on subjects. But on this subject I most certainly believe you are wrong as I was for over six years. Until you allow God to be God you will never be able to reconcile Scripture. You will find that too many passages speak against you. And because of what you think in your mind the way God should be, you will be wrong. As long as God is taken off His Throne, He will not be able to control anything. Just Look at Kathr answers. She has men coming to Christ, without a change of heart. How can men chose someone he doesn't love? How can men choose someone he doesn't believe in? How can he repent if he has no conviction? Conviction come from the Holy Spirit. Some supernatural act has to happen to him.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/09


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Predestination, Throughout Scripture redemption is represented as the free, gracious purpose of God from eternity. In the very hour of man's first sin, God sovereignly intervened with a gratious promise of deliverance. While the glory of God is displayed in the whole realm of creation, it was to be especially displayed in the work of redemption. The fall of man, therefore, was only one part and a necessary part in the plan. Yet God in no way compelled man to fall. He simply withheld that undeserved constraining grace with which Adam would infallibly not have fallen, which grace He was under no obligation to bestow. In repect to himself, Adam might have stood had he so chosen, but in respect to God it was certain that he would fall.
---Mark_V. on 12/23/09


If only we had the "elected" list from God so we could go straight to those people that He wants top save and forget about those other fools...
---JackB on 12/23/09


It seems to me most calvanists are proud of the "fact" that God saved them in the way they respond to scripture that refutes their beliefs. You really don't know the heart of God. Tell me now, do you calvanist go up to lost people and say "According to scripture, God may want to save as He did me. The truth is I don't know because according to scripture He may not want to save you." See how far you get with that line. What a message to tell a lost and dying world.
---Scott on 12/22/09


If He so wanted to stop all from going to hell He most surely could, in fact He is God. - MarkV

Not without imposing His sovereign will over his creations free will.

You and I agree on most things, MarkV, and I love you in Christ, but on predestination of Gentile believers we will never see eye to eye.

I would ask you one question:

Were Adam and Eve predestined to sin according the sovereign will of God or did they make the choice themselves?
---JackB on 12/21/09


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Its still grace for God to offer something to a man that that man doesnt deserve.

Accepting a reward doesnt make a man any more worthy of receiving it. It would be a strange thing however if that man were FORCED to take it.

What kind of loving God would cause a person to sin and then punish that person for sinning? That sound more like satan - not the Lord.

Is God a kid with a big magnifying glass and we are the ants he is about to burn just for fun? He's experimenting, toying, playing with us as though we are worthless and insignificant?

God IS love, and that type of love doesnt sound anything like what the Bible describes in Corinthians 13.
---JackB on 12/21/09


Their hearts were corrupt until God by His grace changed them, gave them faith, and granted them repentance. --MarkV. on 12/20/09



JackB, Great post.

God doesn't BY HIS GRACE Change us FIRST, then give us faith, and THEN grant repentance.

Faith and repentance are one in the same. Therefore faith/repentance come first THEN God's GRACE through CALVARY(Christ in you) begins to change our lives day by day...from Glory to Glory until Christ Comes.


Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Let's get it right MarkV!!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/21/09


Hello Jack B, I wanted to comment on something you said here (which father lets his sick kids die?) which really does not make for a good example because as I see it, many are heading right to hell and God is not stopping them. If He so wanted to stop all from going to hell He most surely could, in fact He is God. He has stopped many who were going there and because of His mercy and grace they are not anymore. These people did nothing worthy of their salvation, or because of their great deeds since they were all sinning, and rebelling against Him. Their hearts were corrupt until God by His grace changed them, gave them faith, and granted them repentance. Without any of God's work they would still be heading to hell.
---MarkV. on 12/20/09


Predestination is supposed to give the believer a larger sense of security in Christ, but instead its been twisted to suggest that God favors certain men over others. Such a shame.

Romans discusses how God has blinded the Jews to the truth of Jesus Christ being the Messiah because they seek Gods righteousness by strict obedience to His law rather than by faith. Because they fail to understand they are never worthy of Gods grace they are constantly seeking to win Gods approval by law and good deed.

Those Jews that are blinded will realize the error of their ways when the antichrist proclaims himself God and the Jews will then know they have missed their Messiah in Jesus. Then they will turn to Him in faith.
---JackB on 12/19/09


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If you hear anything that stops you from spreading the gospel to another man or woman its the work of satan.

Tell the whole world! God is not willing that anyone should perish. He has no pleasure in our death. He has no respect of persons but instead loves us all equally.

Imagine a father kneeling down to explain to his 3 sick and dying little children that he has enough medicine to save all 3 of them, but will only give 1 medicine to survive and pushes the other 2 aside as though he never cared.

Simply amazing that some could believe that.
---JackB on 12/19/09


Every person is created for a purpose. God's purpose. Let it be for evil or good. That's it.
---Catherine on 12/18/09


Yes, the Gospel Paul was talking about Is the Gospel according to the MYSTERY, kept secret but NOW revealed to us...the Body of Christ...His Bride, His Church.

Those Jews...not Gentiles who came into Galatia were bringing the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. Now that WAS revealed in the OT and these Jews, although they did believe in Jesus wanted to co-mingle the Kingdom teachings with the Gospel of the Church. The Kingdom teachings are LAW not GRACE.

Read Zechariah 12-14. Gentiles will THEN be in submission to Jews and Israel when Jesus reigns as KING!!!
---kathr4453 on 12/18/09


There is only One gospel for Old and New Testament. Only one way to be save in the Old and New Testament. One Lord and Savior in the Old and New Testament. Any other gospel is a false gospel.
"The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: All nations will be blessed through you, So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."
(Galatians 3:8,9).
Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ...If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him/her be eternally condemned" Gal. 1:6-9.
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


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"Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me" ***


The Father, God was a Father to Israel..Israel my firstborn. So when FATHER is in reference here, Jesus is talking to JEWS who's Father was God. Gentiles had No such relationship to God.


Gentiles were NEVER taught from the scriptures as was Israel, who's scriptures and Prophets were of the Jews.

Now read ALL of John 12

It's Jesus doing the drawing..not the FATHER and the lifting up is of the CROSS.

Do you understand the Serpent of BRONZE? In (Numbers 21 and John 3:14-17) do you even understand what BRONZE represents.

ALL words have significant meaning in scripture. BRONZE has a very significant meaning.
---kathr4453 on 12/16/09


When Jesus was talking in John 6:44 He was talking to Jews. But His words did not in any way pertain only to the remnant of Israel as you suggested, which is a lie. He was speaking of all those that would come to Him, "Most assurely, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." v.47 That means all people, (everyone) Jews and Gentiles that come to Christ by faith, are taught by God, "Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me" v.45
A person can be led the wrong way and not be guilty, but those who purposely do it will one day be called to answer for what they did to God's Word.
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


Kathr said, salvation is only for Israel and that at that time Jesus was speaking about God drawing people did not mean anyone else but Israel, but she is wrong.MarkV

No, I did not say Salvation was only FOR Israel. I said when Jesus was talking he was talking to JEWS at that particular time..not Gentiles.

AND Nowhere does Paul or Peter or James or John ever repeat or say..."Only those whom the Father draws to Jesus. Jesus was speaking in FIRST PERSON to Jews ONLY.

Even on the day of Pentecost no Gentiles were saved. Even when John Baptized, no Gentiles were baptized by John the Baptist.


Jesus FIRST came to His own and His own received him not....and THEN the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


Kathr said, salvation is only for Israel and that at that time Jesus was speaking about God drawing people did not mean anyone else but Israel, but she is wrong. If she had read the whole context as I said she would had read that Jesus was saying, "He who believes in Me has everlasting life." v. 47 indicating that anyone whom the Father draws v. 44, go to the Son, and "He will raise them up at the last day" It is written in the prophets, which is the same gospel that is preached to everyone. There is no two gospels but One. Jesus said in v. 65 of the same context, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." The gospel of Jesus Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/15/09


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Satan is the "god of this age", whose evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) makes people blind.
---Bill_bila5659 on 12/3/09


Bill I do agree. The Bible does say Satan has blinded. and the Gospel is the Light and power that opens eyes.

What I can't understand though is why MarkV and so many Calvinists give so much credit and power to Satan...and say Satan is ultimately in control...having MORE power than God. What Blasphemy!!!

However I believe the Word of God, the Preaching of the Gospel IS more Powerful than Satan. This is what Paul is teaching us. But many do not believe the Bible...
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


If HE had taken HIS time, and with the right motive HE would have researched both passages within the context of each passage and would have known the Truth.

How do YOU like those condescending remarks thrown back at you??? I know you don't. So please STOP. MarkV, can we cease with the arrogant condescending unchristlike remarks here? It's doesn't make you more spiritual, but quite the opposite! Rude, abrasive, arrogant....

I'm asking the Mods to ask you to refrain from this behavior.

---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


John 12:32 is about Jesus exhaltation, where we also are drawn to that exhaltation with Him. "all men" means Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/15/09


NO IT DOES NOT!!!


John 12:32

32And I, IF I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This is referring to the preaching of the CROSS....the Power of God

Compare John 3:14-17...just as Moses LIFTED up the serpent in the wilderness,refers to WHOSOEVER WILL. Who ever looked upon the serpent was HEALED. Has nothing to do with only the ELECT looking upon the Serpent. Don't you know the story MarkV?

All men mean ALL of Humanity.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


No where in Scripture does it state it was only for the faithful remnant of Israel. MarkV...


Well MarkV, the Gospel had not yet gone out to the Gentiles as of John 6:44. Jesus was speaking to those who were Israel. You will see in John 7 that the Jews should have KNOWN who Christ was from the Scriptures and Prophets. Jesus did not at that time even refer to Gentiles being drawn by the Father. God was a Father to ISRAEL ONLY, not to Gentiles.

John 12 is referring to AFTER Christ died and rose from the dead....a totally different DRAWING we have by the HOLY SPIRIT to both Jew and Gentile when we hear the Gospel concerning his death and resurrection. John 6 were Jews drawn to Jesus as God's Son before calvary.
---kathr4453 on 12/15/09


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Kathr, again attempts to take two passages and give them new meaning,
"The Fathers drawing IS OF the faithful remnant of Israel at John 6:44,"
No where in Scripture does it state it was only for the faithful remnant of Israel. Just another speculation to twist the word of God. The same Jesus is speaking on both passages and Jesus does not contradict. If she had taken her time, and with the right motive she would have researched both passages within the context of each passage and would have known the Truth, that the passages in John 12:32 is about Jesus exhaltation, where we also are drawn to that exhaltation with Him. "all men" means Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ.
---MarkV. on 12/15/09


Question: If the John 6:44 drawing is how it goes at all times, then why are there two distinct drawings, the other of which being John 12:32, which begins only after Calvary?

The Fathers drawing IS OF the faithful remnant of Israel at John 6:44,

The Sons post-Calvary drawing of all men at John 12:32.

If according to Calvinism, both drawings are essentially the same, how come they do not begin at the same time?
---kathr4453 on 12/14/09


Good question...the answer not jsut God but satan can also blind.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for, but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament, which veil is done away in

should read these in context

and there are more...
---steven-rem7000 on 12/11/09


Humans are given freewill to either freely accept Jesus Christ, or else to freely reject Jesus Christ, and according to the person's choice will determine the person's state in this lifetime and also their state in that to come.
---Eloy on 12/5/09

Some are never called at all.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Scripture does not say all will make it. It says "many". There are sheep and there are goats.
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
---Trav on 12/8/09


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Eloy, there is a problem with your explanation of why man choose to reject Christ. You said,
"Everyone whom has evangelized to the lost for more than a small amount of time, will come to realize that certain individuals freely choose of their own volition to be blinded from the truth, because their carnal sin nature is enemity against God"
How can they freely choose of their own volition, then say, because their carnal sin nature is emnity against God? If their carnal sin nature is emnity against God how can they freely choose? Later you say people have free will, how free can it be if his nature is moving him to sin? He is in bondage to sin Eloy, how free is he?
---MarkV. on 12/7/09


Have you not read the bible? Are you also blind?

The Lord will do anything to bring glory to Him.

Wasn't it God, through Jesus, who blinded Saul?

The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart... Deuteronomy 28:28

And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the LORD, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. 2 Kings 6:18

And what about the angels blinding the people in Lot's city.

Also read:
John 12:40
---Steveng on 12/5/09


God can blind people and reveal things in His time
Luke 18:31. Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33. And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
---michael_e on 12/5/09


Everyone whom has evangelized to the lost for more than a small amount of time, will come to realize that certain individuals freely choose of their own volition to be blinded from the truth, because their carnal sin nature is enemity against God. These people want to stay in their sin and do not want anything to do with Jesus Christ nor with salvation, and therefore are self-condemned. Remember, God is perfect, above reproach, and ultimately in complete control over all his creation. Humans are given freewill to either freely accept Jesus Christ, or else to freely reject Jesus Christ, and according to the person's choice will determine the person's state in this lifetime and also their state in that to come.
---Eloy on 12/5/09


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THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! Before a person is save he is considered Blind, Prisoners, lame, sick, deaf, and dead. This was how described unsave. When God opens your eyes, then you can see yourself sinner. When He opened your ears then you can hear God's word. Can dead hear the word of God? NO!!!
Look this verse a picture of salvation.

Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
isaiah 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night, we are in desolate places as dead men.

---rosalie on 12/5/09


I dont know anything about predestination,but I do know its satan,and free will,and the flesh, that blind men and harden their hearts
---tom2 on 12/5/09


2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2 Timothy 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for "IT IS" the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
---kathr4453 on 12/4/09


Father blinds no one. "He [Satan] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I [Jesus] should heal them." Jhn 12:40
However the Father does allow for that slumber "(According as it is written, God hath given them [those who refuse to receive and embrace the Father's gift of grace through Christ Jesus. (Rom.11:6)] the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear,) unto this day." Rom 11:8
The gospel is only hidden to them that are lost. 2Cor. 4:3,4
Why? "the 'god of this world' hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,.."
---Josef on 12/4/09


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It is mankind's sin nature that has people blinded, and only through God's great grace and mercy do any of us become aware of our true condition and need. Those whom God has chosen to redeem have been chosen ONLY because God decided to because of His infinite love, not because of anything we do or don't do. We cannot comprehend God's plans fully nor can we begin to explain them, we just have to believe that, based on what we have in Scripture, that God is loving and just and will do according to His perfect will.
---tommy7376 on 12/4/09


To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, Do to sin entering into the world & the Law also entering so death by sin might abound & pass upon all men, everyone starts out blind to the Wisdom of Understanding God's Knowledgeable Word.

Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get Wisdom and with all thy getting get Understanding : b/c Fear of the LORD, that is Wisdom, and to depart from evil is Understanding. Job 28:28


-- Rachel :

Sister, We'll never Understand all of God's Higher Thoughts & Ways but that doesn't make them none the less True or Just.

God having Predestinated us means what you've hopefully already known & excepted about Salvation, that being that not everyone shall redeem it!
---ShawnM.T. on 12/3/09


No, Rachel . . . God Himself does not make anyone blind > "God is light and in Him is no darkness at all," we have in 1 John 1:5. And this light is in God's love > I consider Philippians 1:9, showing me that in God's love we have "knowledge and all discernment." So, by not being in God's love for all people, we can be in darkness of selfish loving. However, our Apostle Paul speaks of those who do not know God > "whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." (2 Corinthians 4:4) Satan is the "god of this age", whose evil spirit (Ephesians 2:2) makes people blind.
---Bill_bila5659 on 12/3/09


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