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Rituals To Become Righteous

Does all religion contains methods, rituals and practices for man to become righteous enough to ascend to God? All religion thus believes in the need for one to become self righteous?

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 ---mima on 12/5/09
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Lee1538:
you want to believe that forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law, THEY DO NOT. They are simply LEARNED behavior that expresses worship./// ---Lee1538 on 12/12/09

You already admitted to altar
offerings/sacrifice, learned NOT of MORAL LAW.

And I AGREE WITH YOU AND WITH OTHERS, that we SEE altar offerings taught practiced in GENESIS beginning with Abel Gen. 4:4-7. His offering not of moral law, LATER reaffirmed, CODEFIED at Mt Sinai, Lev. 4:32-37!

In other words, Abel, by faith KEPT EVEN laws NOT OF MORAL LAW! REAFFIRMED IN Lev. 4:32-35 AT Mt. Sinai!
More evidence of kept laws of Genesis 26:5 were more than moral law!!

And then, the Sabbath, just wait, you will be amazed!
---Paul9594 on 12/13/09


Lee1538:
You said:
I was a very moralistic person before I came to know Christ and like you, believed if I observed all the moral law I would be saved eternally.

Faith does plays a part, well, argue with the ONE you say you believe in:
Matthew 19:16-21
When Christ was asked the direct question:
16 And lo, one came to him and said, Teacher, what good thing shall
I do, that I may have eternal life?

What does Christ teach?

Why askest thou me concerning what is the good? One is the :good: but if thou wouldest ENTER into the life, keep the commandments.

Then He said and follow me, not follow me up to a point!

DO YOU CONSENT TO CHRIST WORDS TEACHING?
---Paul9594 on 12/13/09


//There is no command by Jesus to refrain from beastiality. Do you feel free to practice it?

I rather doubt that anyone will agree with you on this issue. (ever read Romans 1?)

However, there is no command either in the entire Bible that states Christians must observe the Jewish Sabbath (and I say Jewish Sabbath because only the nation of Israel observed it), nor did the church fathers, many the successors of the Apostles, taught Sabbath keeping).

Sorry but the Sabbath is an optional thing according to Romans 14:5.
---Lee1538 on 12/13/09


Lee: "One criticism of Adventism is that there was never any command to observe the Sabbath prior to the time of Moses." There is no command by Jesus to refrain from beastiality. Do you feel free to practice it?
---jerry6593 on 12/13/09


Paul9594 //BUT nothing against Genesis Laws of God NOT BEING more than the natural laws of morality everyone is born with, that
Abraham or his ancestors had to learn!

You could be more clear on what you are trying to say.

So you are in disagreement with Romans 2:14 that man who is born in the image of God, does not have an inherent sense of right & wrong. I can only disagree totally with you.

In any case, father Abraham was justified by his faith, not his works. And Romans 1:17 tells us that we need walk by faith.

I strongly suggest that you study Romans under the tutorage of someone that knows both the Scripture and its Author.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09




////Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//

No, but I refuse to read into the text things that are not there. If your contention is that Genesis 26:5 speaks more than natural law of morality then the burden of proof should be on you, not on me.

I truly feel sorry for the slave children of Hagar of mt. Sinai who seek to bring Christians into the bondage of Old Testament laws. You truly need to study Galatians which to the legalists is the danger book of the Bible.

It is truly hard for the flesh to let go and let God take control.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


Paul9594 //More proof? Noah, Jacob, ABRAHAM making sacrifices/Altars to Father REFLECTING Laws of Mt. Sinai!! Back to Sabbath!!!

Your "proof" is really something that you are determined to read into the text that is not there.

Each covenant has it own specifications, but the Abrahamic covenant did not have anything to say about anything involving the laws of the Sinaitic covenant.

At the bottom line there is nothing in the New Covenant of the church that mandates observance of the Jewish Sabbath. In fact, Romans 14:5-6 allows it only as an option. And it was NOT taught by the early church.

Sorry but I must remain unconvinced.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


//Lee1538: Answers from the BIBLE, NOT COMMENTARIES for YOUR question to me:

Most people that object to commentaries written by Godly men who have been called into the ministry of teachings, do so because they all too often depicts the fallacy of what they want others to believe.

Is that what you fear?

A good commentary is one that relies heavily upon Scripture to support their position.



---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


Paul9594 //Did you by nature do what the law requires, therefore had no sin before you accepted Christ?

I was a very moralistic person before I came to know Christ and like you, believed if I observed all the moral law I would be saved eternally.

Howbeit, I discovered my morality was nowhere sufficient for my salvation. One is counted righteous because of Christ, who is "our righteousness, sanctification and redemption" (1 Cor.1:30), not of our own works since we become "his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:10

BTW, good works has nothing to do with the observance of the Jewish Sabbath as such is a ceremonial law.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


Paul9594 Part II.

3. Don't you need to enter into salvation by faith in works of His death on the cross?

Not faith in works at all but faith in finish work of Christ apart from works. Salvation is by grace alone not of works, ...For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:8-10

4.Did you by nature do what the law requires, therefore had no sin before you accepted Christ?

We are not saved just because we observed the moral law as salvation is thru Christ. Yes, by nature as long as we know right from wrong & followed our conscience, we like the Gentiles do what the law requires - same as the Gentiles.

---Lee1538 on 12/12/09




Lee1538: 6
Answers from the BIBLE, NOT COMMENTARIES for YOUR question to me:
//Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//
You also said:
.forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law[?]they do not. They are simply learned behavior that expresses worship.////
My Scriptural Authority of Laws beyond morality laws known? Genesis 3:15, Gen. 4:4-7: speaking of Christ even before Mt. Sinai!!

These more than natural laws of morality! known,PRACTICED,later He codified!!!

More proof? Noah, Jacob, ABRAHAM making sacrifices/Altars to Father REFLECTING Laws of Mt. Sinai!! Back to Sabbath!!!
---Paul9594 on 12/12/09


Lee1538:
You said:
//Yes, as far as basic morality is concerned, everyone is born with a conscience that tells us right from wrong.//

A conscious doesnt speak at birth, only begins to speak 4 or 5 by then our conscious has been marred, flawed, because of movies, TV, video games at 5 and by possible bad family circumstances of drug, alcoholi, poverty homes.

At this age, does one really know laying with another man is not natural?
Does one now murder being wrong concretely at this ages?

This is why you need to be TOLD what is right and wrong, by parents that LIKELY have marred consciousness because EVEN Christians now a days reject the law of righteousness empowered by the Holy Spirit!!
---Pau9594 on 12/12/09


Paul9594 Part I.

1. If Gentiles do by nature what the law requires, then why do they need the sin offering of Christ to pay for their sins?

Romans 2:14 does not address salvation as one is not saved by obedience to law but by the grace provided thru Christ. You can be a very good moralist but not know Christ. Of course, the children of Hagar would disagree with me.

2.Did you know to accept Christ to pay for your sins, since you were born, age two? No as Scripture requires the belief in Christ as well as the offer of salvation. John 3:16, 6:44

God appoints one to salvation. Read Acts 13:48
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


Lee1538: 5

U asked:
are the Laws in Genesis 26:5 more than naturals that everyone is born with?

Your answers have:
Pretty much, likely, of MAYBE, AND you bring up pagan practices on one of them , BUT nothing against Genesis Laws of God NOT BEING more than the natural laws of morality everyone is born with, that Abraham or his ancestors had to learn!

How am I going believe your position with this type of answers?

One cannot learn NOR set FOUNDATIONAL DOCTRINES you have on the basis of likely, pretty much, and bringing up pagan practices Father would not accept. He didn't even accept Cains offering not done as Abels according to Lev. 4:32-35 of Mt. Sinai, Father accepted!
---Paul9594 on 12/12/09


Paul9594//Lee were you born kwowing right and wrong?

Yes,as far as basic morality is concerned, everyone is born with a conscience that tells us right from wrong.

Howbeit, you want to believe that forms of worship such as altar offerings, etc. reflect moral law,they do not. They are simply learned behavior that expresses worship.

In any case, how did the Gentiles who followed their conscience actually fulfill the law if it was not given to them? Romans 2:14.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

That pretty much proves there is a natural law that governs morality in which we are born with.
---Lee1538 on 12/12/09


Paul, you are wrong again on your interpretation of Romans 2. Here Paul is saying "Law unto themselves" Their practice of some good deeds and their aversion to some evil ones demonstrate an innate knowledge of God's law-a knowledge that will actually witness against them on the day of Judgment. These people without knowing the written law of God, people in pagan society generally value and attempt to practice its most basic tenets. Refecting the divine law written in their hearts. "Sinned without the Law" the Gentiles who never had the opportunity to know God's moral law (Ex. 20:1-) will be judge on their disobedience in relationship to their limited knowledge (1:19,20).
---MarkV. on 12/12/09


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If children grew up without and sort of parental guidance, they'd all be feral children who, in turn, grow to be equal to the animals.

As for denominational "churches: if you truly want to mature in Christ, then get as far away as possible from denominaional "churches." Denominational "churches" are surely a product of Satan. The christian life is a 24/7 lifestyle - not a once a week pep talk dished out by denominational "churches." Compare your "church" to the churches in the NT. Do an online KJV bible search of "one another," "each other," and "comfort."
---Steveng on 12/11/09


Lee1538:

You quote this out of context: Rom. 2:14.
(I may later point out other inconsistencies of your reasoning of Scriptures which you already have shown):

Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

If Gentiles do by nature what the law requires, then why do they need the sin offering of Christ to pay for their sins?

Did you know to accept Christ to pay for your sins, since you were born, age two?

Dont you need to enter into salvation by faith in works of His death on the cross?

Did you by nature do what the law requires, therefore had no sin before you accepted Christ?
---Paul9594 on 12/11/09


Lee1538:

You said:
Sort of blews a huge hole in your belief that man had be taught right from wrong.///

Lee were you born kwowing right and wrong?

Why don't you know of:

Abel's procedures of sin offering, first born, Fat burnt ofering of what is holy, just and good from the Torah Lev. 4:32-35, RIGHT AND ACCEPTED BY the Father?

Why didn't you know of right,sin offering of Christ you needed, until grown?


Why did you accept Christ's was it not because of your sin? He who sins does was IS NOT RIGHT? Again stop reading commentaries.
---paul9594 on 12/11/09


//Boy, you really gotta study Torah.

Torah - 1. 5 books of Moses: 2.the collective body of Jewish teaching embodied in the Hebrew Bible and the Talmud.

And why study the Torah (read it many times) when Christians are not under the law (Rom. 6:12-14, 7:6, Ga.5:18) nor the Old Covenant? 2 Cor. 3:7f, Hebr. 8:13

It is only the slave children of Hagar of Mt. Sinai who would follow the Torah.

Christians are children of that promise given to Abraham.

you truly need to study Galatians esp. the part about the law being but a temporary guardian to lead us to Christ that we may be justified by faith (3:24),and about Hagar from Mt Sinai who represents the Old Mosaic covenant bearing children to slavery. (4:24)
---Lee1538 on 12/11/09


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Lee1538:

What is in question is:

...any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was ANYTHING MORE than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?

Genensis 4:4 Abel, he also brought of the firstlings(Bkorah, Hebrew for FIRST-BORN, female) of his flock and of THE FAT thereof(Lev. 4:32-35). And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

I'LL admit so would OTHERS:

I was not born knowing sacrafice procedures OF ANIMALS, as a natural law of morality, FOR sin a offering, a type of Christ.

Were you born with these naturals of Morality to present a sin offering to the Father?
No, but you learned sin offering of Christ. This why you accepted Him,when grown!
---Paul9594 on 12/11/09


Is everyone born with these natural LAWS of morality,,,

Apparently that is what the Bible teaches.

Romans 1:9-10 For what can be known about God is plain to them (the Gentiles), because God has shown it to them. So they are without excuse.

Sort of blews a huge hole in your belief that man had be taught right from wrong.

And how could the Gentiles who did not have the law actually fulfill the law?

Ro 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

And that further knocks down your view on the Sabbath, simply because they did not observe it but they did fulfill the law.
---Lee1538 on 12/11/09


Lee: Prt/4
Is the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?//

Is everyone born with these natural LAWS of morality of Exo.13:2, Lev. 4:32-35, Deut. 15:19, offerings done before laws of Mt. Sina1?

Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the FIRST-BORN(firstling), both of man and of BEAST: It is mine.

Gen 4:4 Abel, he also brought of the FIRSTLINGS of his flock and of the FAT thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his OFFERING:

FIRSTLING IN HEBREW =bkorah {bek-o-raw'}, feminine of bkowr, the firstling of man or beast, abstractly primogeniture -- birthright, firstborn(-ling).!
Abel Knew of sheep female first-born Sin offering AND FAT offering!!!
---Paul9594 on 12/10/09


Lee1538:

More likely when Adam & Eve got booted out of the garden, they were given instructions on worship that later reflected the Levitical practice.

Good there is progress Torah/laws/instructions before Mt. Sinai.

You said:
pagan societies also practiced burnt offerings.

I've been told this one before!

The Father, did not accept even Cain's offering not done as Abel's.

Boy, you really gotta study Torah. And you know what I'm just taking it easy on you :)

Would the Father ACCEPT Abel's offering if it was done according to pagans practices?

By the way I got alot more proof...
---Paul9594 on 12/10/09


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The KJV has the following for Hosea 6:7

But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

the ESV has -

But like Adam they transgressed the covenant, there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Adam can be translated the man.

what is covenant in this verse?

There are at least 8 covenants in the Bible.

Scholars speak of the Adamic Covenant (Genesis 3:16-19)

How did Abel and Cain know of burnt-offerings (Genesis 4:1-7) before Moses.

More likely when Adam & Eve got booted out of the garden, they were given instructions on worship that later reflected the Levitical practice.

pagan societies also practiced burnt offerings.
---Lee1538 on 12/10/09


//Do people know were an enemy of God, did you know about peace offerings for the Father, since birth, age two?

You need clarify what you mean here?

While I most likely can find an answer to any of your questions, I cannot say that it will be the best answer as all too often the record is not that explicitly clear or detailed.
---Lee1538 on 12/10/09


Lee1538: Prt. 3
...Any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?

Gen 3:15 His redemptive love in Christ!

Who knows of Christ redemptive love from time born?

Hosea 6:7 But THEY like Adam have transgressed the COVENANT: there have they dealt TREACHEROUSLY against me. (TRANSLATION NOT APOSTATE)

Rom. 5:8-10 For if, BEING enemies, we were reconciled to: God through the death of his: Son

Do people know were an enemy of God, did you know about peace offerings for the Father, since birth, age two?

How did Abel and Cain know of burnt-offerings (Genesis 4:1-7) before instructions of Moses? Is this a moral law?
---Paul9594 on 12/10/09


Paul9594, Jerry - One criticism of Adventism is that there was never any command to observe the Sabbath prior to the time of Moses. Nor is there any record the patriarchs (Adam & Eve, Noah, Abraham, etc.) kept the Sabbath.

While acknowledging this there has been attempts by Adventist apologists to provide some kind of answer to the critics that would indicate from Scripture the ancients did observe the Sabbath.

One such attempt was to hypothesize from Gen.26:5 the law Abraham obeyed was the Mosaic law. However, since the text does not reveal the content of those commandments, statutes, laws, their premise is nothing less than conjecture. But at least it provided an answer to the critics howbeit very weak.
---Lee1538 on 12/10/09


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Paul9594 //Why would the Holy Spirit bother teaching you all all all of what Christ said, and then say follow His words only up to a point?

You need remember that at the Cross, there was a change in the priesthood and thus the law (Hebr.7:12). Much of what Christ taught pertained only to the Old Covenant dispensation. Believers are to walk in the Spirit who was not given until Pentecost.

It is interesting that Christ did not once command followers to become circumcised or to observe the OT sabbath. In fact, one of the problems with Adventism (Sabbaterians) is that neither Jesus nor the entire New Testament taught Sabbath keeping.
---Lee1538 on 12/10/09


..There you go again. Slamming people who believe the the Bible, and holding man as your final authority.

Even the Roman Catholics believe in the Bible, in fact, the last pope even claimed that ignorance of the Bible is ignorance of Christ.

It is your unique and often indefensible interpretation of the Bible that are under criticism, not your integrity or your relationship with Christ if you have that.
---Lee1538 on 12/10/09


Lee: "Yes, we are at an impasse howbeit, your view on Genesis 26:5 is held by a few Sabbaterians, but not by a single reputable Bible expositor I know of."

There you go again. Slamming people who believe the the Bible, and holding man as your final authority.
---jerry6593 on 12/10/09


Lee1538: 2 Gen 26:5
More specifically your question to me:
Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality EVERYONE is born with?

There is bad reasoning in your question.

Im willing to admit Im wrong should you show me my bad reasoning of Scriptures with your understanding of the Scriptures.

Since you don't need to keep the Sabbath, as a Christian and say other Christians don't need to keep Sabbath.

Are the Jews who keep the Sabbath the only ones born with this natural law of morality?

Is it true that the Sabbath goes beyond those natural laws of morality YOU SAY EVERYONE is born with?
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


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Lee1538: 3
You ask: Is Gen. 26:5, beyond natural laws of morality everyone is born with?

Our Father made known His
Teachings/instructions = Torah, out of love from beginning!!

Gen 3:15 His redemptive love in Christ!

who knows of Christ redemptive love from time born?

Hosea 6:7 But they like Adam have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt TREACHEROUSLY against me.

Rom. 5:8-10 For if, BEING enemies, we were reconciled to: God through the death of his: Son

Did you know you were an enemy of God, did you know about peace offerings for the Father, since you were born?

How did Abel and Cain know of burnt-offerings (Genesis 4:1-7) before instructions of Moses? is this a moral law?
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


Lee1538,JackB:

We can reason other Scriptures later, let's finish reasoning Gen. 26:5 for the Truth of His love,of the Torah.

Why?

Is is not out love that we teach our children what is bad for them to eat?

How much more our Father, for His Children?

Out of love our Father teachings instructions/Torah teaches you do not eat unclean animals. ( they supress immune system and our toxic for the body)

Does not a good Father teach/instruct = TORAH, HIS CHILDREN into good morals/righteousnes THEY CAN grow into, BY HIS POWER?

WHAT TRUE CHILD DOESN'T RECEIVE INSTRUCTION/TORAH FROM HIS PERFECT FATHER?

ONLY CHILDREN DECEIVED ABOUT HIS TORAH AND POWER OF FAITH UNITED TO HIS POWERS!
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


Lee1538: part 1 Gen 26:5

We can reason other Scriptures later, after reasoning the Scripture we question:
All of my postings following:

Answer what you asked ME, until we finish reasoning as Paul reasoned with Scriptures, so that I may establish the love of our Father was before Mt. Sinai:

The question you asked me, which I will be answering?

Do you have any scriptural authority to assert that the law spoken of in Genesis 26:5 was anything more than the natural law of morality everyone is born with? ---Lee1538 on 12/6/09

Were you saved the day you were born, had no Sin the day you were born?
Good, not saved, since later you accepted
Christ as your savior.
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


Lee1538:
You say:
///
Yes, upon MEN particularly Godly men who have been filled with God's Holy Spirit and have been given the gift of teachings and who may support their viewpoints with the Word of God. ///

Men filled with the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit was sent for:

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [even] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Why would the Holy Spirit bother teaching you all all all of what Christ said, and then say follow His words only up to a point?
---Paul9594 on 12/9/09


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Leave all the "ascending" to God, you cannot "reach" that far.

If your preference is to play the "Godworthy" game and receive a "Holiness award", then observe all the rituals, methods/procedures/protocol, practices, self effort "works"/deeds, invent fanciful "interpretations", and acheive academic excellence instead of care about His WILL/desires, and use holy jargon/lingo to convince yourself and others that you really are holy.

....but if you truly love Abba Father, you've already taken the the only step that you have control over, so just remain humble to Him and He'll take it from there...

James 4:8
"Draw near to God and he will draw near to you".
---more_excellent_way on 12/9/09


Paul9594 - //Well neither am I convinced of your so called proof or nor would any true child of the Father be convinced with your Scripture proof!

Yes, we are at an impasse howbeit, your view on Genesis 26:5 is held by a few Sabbaterians, but not by a single reputable Bible expositor I know of.

As to being a true child of God,law keepers believe if one is a true Christian, he or she does not sin. And since to them breaking the Jewish Sabbath is a sin, non-observers cannot be genuine Christians contrary to what the Bible teaches. Your soteriology is strictly a works theology thro you may say otherwise.

Frankly, your views indicate you are indeed a true child of Hagar from Mt. Sinai, bearing children for slavery. Gal. 4:24f
---Lee1538 on 12/9/09


Jack B, you hit the point very well. Faith in Christ is our whole life. Our inability of been perfect is the very reason why we need faith in Christ to stand on our behalf.
---MarkV. on 12/9/09


I think adding Obedience to Faith is what God wants.

But when you focus more on your Obedience than you do your Faith in Christ then you've entered the danger zone.

Hopefully not the point of no return.

Gal 3:1-4
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
---JackB on 12/9/09


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Lee1538:
I will show you the weakness of your answer with your own words:
The question you asked me to answer is:
What Scripture Authority shows law of Genesis 26:5 is same as MT. Sinai?
My answer:
2 Timothy 2:15
2Ti 2:15 Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth. Genesis 26:5 is of the same covenant of the Mosaic Covenant.
Convince of my position, reasoning that Gen. 26:5 is same as Mt. Sinai, based on above Scripture?
No? I thought so.
Well neither am I convinced of your so called proofor nor would any true child of the Father be convinced with your Scripture proof!
---paul9594 on 12/8/09


//You RELY on COMMENTS of MEN, what they THINK OF VERSE 7 1 John, not even pointing to Scripture 4 their reasoning.

Yes, upon MEN particularly Godly men who have been filled with God's Holy Spirit and have been given the gift of teachings and who may support their viewpoints with the Word of God.

You on the other hand, rely not on the teachers the Lord has given His church but upon assumptions designed to support the false beliefs you hold to be true by those who the Lord has not called into the ministry of the church.

Now the question at hand, what scripture do you have to believe the law Abraham was obedience to was the Mosaic law given some 400 years later? You can have no convincing answer.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


//Do you consent to Christ's teachings 4 ENTERING LIFE?

You sound like you have been defeated in your arguments!

Yes indeed I sought to follow Christ as Savior and lord some 49 years ago and am still growing spiritually in His Word. I can be "confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in [me] will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" Php. 1:6

When will you consent to Christ's teachings as apparently you do not believe one must live by faith (Romans 1:17) but seek to follow the law and that in accordance to your own understanding.

Have you fallen from grace liken to the Galatians who begin with the Spirit but expecting to be perfected by the flesh? 3:2f
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


Paul9594 -//You have no Scripture authority to show 26:5 are different laws not of Mt. Sinai.

Nor have you given any scripture authority that would indicate that Abraham was the recipient of the Mosaic law. And you will not because you cannot.

As stated before, that is your contention and the burden of proof must be on you, not on others.

Sorry but an argument based on silence is not a valid argument,and such is your belief that the law in Genesis 26:5 was the Mosaic law given some 400-500 years later.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


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//You RELY on COMMENTS of MEN,

And if I may ask, who are your mentors? Old Ellen White who got booted out of a church that preached the gospel preferring to believe her self induced visions instead of God's word?

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


//Every one that DOES DOES DOES DOES righteousness is begotten of Him.

Very true, as we read in

1 Jo 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for Gods seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Howbeit, Christians cannot be perfect while living in the flesh (Romans 7). Those that say they do not have their sin deceive themselves and truth is not in them.

1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


1 Cor 1:29

That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Let it sink in....

The only way this is possible is if ALL the credit goes to Jesus Christ for our salvation.

Its not how well we've lived in the flesh. We've already blown our chance to be accepted by God. Now we have to let His grace take over.

You can't mix righteousness by faith in Christ and righteousness by the law. Gotta pick one.
---JackB on 12/9/09


Lee,
2Timothy 2:15

Give diligence to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, handling aright the word of truth.

This is in reference to His Word altogether, this Doesn't deny issue in question:

Are His laws, statutes, commandments Father said Abraham kept, different than law of Mt. Sinai?

You have no Scripture authority to show 26:5 are different laws not of Mt. Sinai.

You RELY on COMMENTS of MEN, what they THINK OF VERSE 7 1 John, not even pointing to Scripture 4 their reasoning.

Matthew 19:16-21
Christ said keep commandments and follow me. Not follow me up to a point as you read in commentaries.

Do you consent to Christ's teachings 4 ENTERING LIFE?
---paul9594 on 12/8/09


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Paul9594 //What Scripture authority do you have showing Gen. 26.5 is not His Law of Mt. Sinai?

2 Tim.2:15 that of rightfully handling the word of truth as clearly Abraham was not the recipient of the Mosaic law given centuries later.

Perhaps a better understanding of this verse is expressed by a paraphrase Bible "because Abraham did everything I told him to do". CEV. This verse reflects that covenant God made with Abraham - a covenant of grace, not law.

Sorry but we do not recognize the writings of Ellen White where this supposition comes from.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


Lee1538:

29 If ye know that He is righteous, ye know that EVERY ONE also that doeth righteousness is begotten of Him

Every one that DOES DOES DOES DOES righteousness is begotten of Him.

Righteousness is not just about a mental belief in Him. You must do do righteousness.


Are you begotten of Him and do Rightousness?
---paul9594 on 12/8/09


//BEFORE Mt Sinai, Fathers reaction to disobedience:Said, "How long do you REFUSE to keep My commandments AND My laws?" (Exodus 16: 28). He clearly speaks of both His "commandments and laws" as already existing and IN FORCE well before Mt. Sinai!!
----------------

Not true at all!

The Mosaic legislation was not given during one event but was recorded by Moses, and his aides as God spoke to him in the Tent of Meeting. It is likely that the Sabbath was given at the Tent of Meeting but formalized in stone on Mt. Sinai.

So your assumption that the sabbath was observed prior to the time of Moses is truly without any merit.

Sorry to bust another one of your untrue beliefs.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


Paul9594 - He speaks of commandment from the beginning: What part of beginning dont we understand?

The beginning of what? Perhaps Barnes notes would be useful.

Verse 7. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you. That is, what I am now enjoining is not new. It is the same doctrine which you have always heard. There has been much difference of opinion as to what is referred to by the word commandment, whether it is the injunction in the previous verse to live as Christ lived, or whether it is what he refers to in the following verses, the duty of brotherly love. he meant to say it was nothing which he had originated himself, but was the same system of doctrines which they had always received since they became Christians.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


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//What Scripture authority do you have showing Gen. 26.5 is not His Law of Mt. Sinai?

2 Tim.2:15 rightfully handling the word of truth. Genesis 26:5 is of a different covenant than the Mosaic Covenant.

One's faith must be based upon something that is tangible but your contention is no more than a supposition.

In any case, we are heir of the promise given to Abraham based upon his faith, not his works.

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. Romans 4:13-14
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


Lee1538:
1,2 John written approx at least 30 yrs into the Church age, after the resurrection of Christ, teaches:

John Apostle speaks:
What part of beginning dont we understand?

1Jo 2:7 Beloved, no new commandment write I unto you, but an old commandment which ye had FROM THE BEGINNING: the old commandment is the word which ye heard.

2Jo 1:6 And THIS IS LOVE, that we should WALK AFTER his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard FROM THE BEGINNING, that ye SHOULD WALK in it.

Commandments were from beginning not from Mt. Sinai? There was no Israel at beginning nor Israelites.

What Scripture authority do you have showing Gen. 26.5 is not His Law of Mt. Sinai?
---paul9594 on 12/8/09


Paul9594 -//2Jo 1:6 And THIS IS LOVE, that we should WALK AFTER his commandments.

John really defines what the commandments he speaks of really are in 3:23 -

And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.

so there are really 2 that john has in focus - 1) to believe in the name of His Son Jesus, and 2) to love one another.

the first sounds true since 'whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life', the second to love one another reflects Romans 13:10 which states that 'love of neighbor fulfills the law'.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


1 John written approx at least 30 yrs into the Church age, after the resurrections of Christ, teaches:

He speaks of commandment from the beginning:
What part of beginning dont we understand?

1Jo 2:7 Beloved, no new commandment write I unto you, but an old commandment which ye had FROM THE BEGINNING: the old commandment is the word which ye heard.

2Jo 1:6 And THIS IS LOVE, that we should WALK AFTER his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard FROM THE BEGINNING, that ye should walk in it.

Commandments were from beginning not from Mt. Sinai? There was no Israel at beginning nor Israelites.

What Scripture authority do you have showing Gen. 26.5 is not His Law of Mt. Sinai?
---paul9594 on 12/8/09


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Religion contains ceremonial laws to get save or to become righteous. In the Old testament circumcision, sacrifices, observation Sabbath laws, must imposed. In our days church observe baptism, last supper, attendance, confession...BUT NONE OF THIS GUARANTEES TO BE RIGHTEOUS/SAVE. THIS ARE ALL WORKS.
Only Gods mercey and Grace of Election saves a person.
Romans 9:32 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone,
---ROSALIE on 12/8/09


Lee1538:

/...Sabbath ...sign of the covenant God made with Israel alone,(Exo. 31:17) that covenant was not made until Mt. Sinai/

Sabbath before Mount Sinai!

The seven-day existed, in the week of creation, evidence the Sabbath also existed, before Israel.

Gen 2:2-3:
On the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the SEVENTH day. Then God blessed the seventh day and SANCTIFIED it..."

No Sabbath before EXODUS 31:17?
Exodus 16:23
"Tomorrow is a SABBATH rest, a holy SABBATH to the LORD...So the people rested on the seventh day" (Ex 16:23, 30). (TRANSLATION FAITHFUL TO HEBREW NUMERIC VALUE)

What Scripture authority do you have Gen 26:5 not of Mt. Sinai?
---Paul9594 on 12/8/09


Paul9594-//Since the Sabbath was made for MAN.

If this commandment was of any importance then why do we not see either Christ or the writers of the New Testament commanding it of the church?

The answers lies in the fact the Sabbath commandment was but the sign of the Old Sinaitic covenant and not of the NewCovenant. Also when Gentiles became believers,they had to decide if "it was needful to circumcise them, AND, AND, AND, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses".Acts 15:5.

Note that in this verse it was the law keeping and sabbath keeping Pharisees that required the church to decide these issues.

The Sabbath is part of the law of Moses according to both Scripture & reputable Bible dictionaries.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


More proof Sabbath known before Mt. Sinai:

In Exodus 16:4-5 several days to several weeks before God established His covenant with the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. God gave them a test to see "whether they will walk in My law or not."

What my law of His Sabbath even BEFORE Mt. Sinai?

His law reaffirmed at Mt. Sinai

His test involved whether they would rest on the seventh-day Sabbath as He later reaffirmed with the Fourth Commandment of His Law

Which they were familiar with.
Would he ask of them to do what they did not know?

The seventh day hallowedset aside as holy by Godfrom the time of Adam and Eve (Genesis 2:1-3).
---Paul9594 on 12/8/09


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BEFORE Mt Sinai, Fathers reaction to disobedience:

Said, "How long do you REFUSE to keep My commandments AND My laws?" (Exodus 16: 28).

He clearly speaks of both His "commandments and laws" as already existing and IN FORCE well before Mt. Sinai!!

His law! 4 chapters later Exodus 20!
Commandments were codifiedwritten in stone as part of a reaffirmed, formal covenantat Mt. Sinai!
His Law in the conscious of men before law given, you said.

Then Gen. 26:5 of Abraham ALSO WAS conscious of His Laws LATER codified!

This Proves that Abraham had faith AND obedience UNTO His Laws.

Will you follow Abrahams example of Faith and Obedience to His commandments or the apostates?
---Pau99594 on 12/8/09


Cluny //There are others that teach you can "get saved" by saying the totally imaginary and unbiblical "sinner's prayer" in the privacy of your own home. You can hear this taught on TV.

I believe the concept is that Jesus will hear the sincere prayer of the sinner and not turn anyone away that comes to Him.

Of course, it is a matter of the heart as well as the mind. But just saying 'magic words' will not suffice.

On the other hand if you are one of Reformed theology, then your salvation is really a matter of election by the Lord Himself (ever hear of TULIP)?

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


Paul9594- //Clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery a "sin against our Father." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment .. of Law of mount Sinai!

Yes, you could go on supposing man who was born in the image of God, did not possess a conscience that told him right from wrong without a law being given.

But that is clearly a false assumption on your part.

Every society ever known to mankind had a sense of right and wrong and that without any written or spoken law being given. All you need to do to convince yourself of that is to ask any anthropologist.

No society before the law was given ever observed the OT Sabbath - the 4th commandment. What tangible evidence is there to the contrary?
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


//Since the Sabbath was made for man. Do you think He would keep it from Him all the way to the Law of Moses?

Since the Sabbath was but the sign of the covenant God made with Israel alone,(Exodus 31:17) that covenant was not made until Mt. Sinai. Thus there was no reason for God to give the observance of it as a command.

Those that advocate observance of the Sabbath and other Torah laws are really those that seek to led the Christian aways from grace and back under the law. Read the thing about "O foolish galatians" given in the epistle of St. Paul and you may see what I am speaking about.

Such Judaizers only seek to boast in your flesh by leading one captive to the law. Gal.6:3
---Lee1538 on 12/8/09


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why do people think the new testament starts in mt. mk. luke or john
Heb.9:16. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
---michael_e on 12/8/09


I might mention, mima, that you have claimed to have led such rituals yourself on these blogs.
---Cluny on 12/8/09


What Scripture Authority shows law of Genesis 26:5 is same as MT. sinai?

I was afraid you would ask that.

Since you don't have much understanding of the Torah meaning teaching instructions of our Father. And not law as men think.

I will take it easy on you, and begin with the Sabbath, for your sake, for starters, I'll use the New Testament.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said... The sabbath was
made for :man, (not sabbath was made for Jew)

Since the Sabbath was made for MAN.

Do you think He would keep it from MAN all the way to the Law of Moses?

I will not continue on monologue, Please answer my questions.
---paul9594 on 12/7/09


What Scripture Authority shows law of Genesis 26:5 is same as MT. sinai?

I was afraid you would ask that.

Since you don't have much understanding of the Torah meaning teaching instructions of our Father. And not law as men think.

I will take it easy on you, and begin with the Sabbath, for your sake, for starters, I'll use the New Testament.

Mark 2:27 Jesus said... The Sabbath was
made for: man, (not Sabbath was made for Jew)

Since the Sabbath was made for MAN.

Do you think our Father would keep it AWAY from MAN all the way to the Law of Moses?
---paul9594 on 12/7/09


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Lee1538:
Sin "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, ) or "lawlessness" according to faithful translation of Greek numeric value.

"Where there is no law there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).

IN GENESIS.Father send a flood because of wickedness. He measured wickedness, to what standard? To His standards!

His holy character not changing, what is evil/sin does not change for Him.

Clear example. Genesis 20:3-9 and 39:7-9 describe adultery a "sin against our Father." Adultery breaks the Seventh Commandment .. of Law of mount Sinai! I could go on

Defend your reasoning:
WHAT SCRIPTURE AUTHORITY SHOWS GENESIS 26:5 IS NOT THE LAW OF MT. SINAI?
---Paul9594 on 12/7/09


Eloy:

Im glad that you said:

Jesus Christ to show us the one and only right way or righteousness.

Im glad you included righteousness!

Righteousness has being forgotten, ignored by many who supposedly preach the truth, as you know.

Or they think it means our own righteousness, without Christ!
---Paul9594 on 12/7/09


All religions are idolatry. For God himself came down to earth, and put on flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, to show us the one and only right way or righteousness. And if a soul professes to love Jesus, then his commandments that soul will keep: the God-lover will take up their own cross and follow after Jesus, just like Jesus has taken up his cross up to the end.
---Eloy on 12/7/09


Pop-evangelicals teach that you can get saved by walking down the aisle to "Just as I Am" or similar hymn. I've heard it taught from the pulpit.

There are others that teach you can "get saved" by saying the totally imaginary and unbiblical "sinner's prayer" in the privacy of your own home. You can hear this taught on TV.
---Cluny on 12/6/09


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Good points Joesef. There are no rituals or practices that will cause a person to righteous. Self righteousness is a sin. Judging others "before the time" is a mistake. With the measure that we use to judge others, we will be judged. Lord have mercy!
---jody on 12/6/09


We need the righteousness of Christ. From sinner to Saint.
---duane on 12/6/09


no one can enter without first repenting and accepting jesus.Only trough him are we made asseptable to the father.
---tom2 on 12/6/09


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