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Noah's Flood Was Worldwide

Does Scripture say Noah's flood was local, or world-wide?

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 ---Warwick on 12/8/09
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Trav the local flood idea is not Scriptural.

How could the waters rise 15 cubits over "all the high mountains" and not quickly disperse?

Genesis 7:19 says "all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." If this means just the local mountains under the local heavens how then would God describe all the high mountains under all the entire heavens?

Why would Noah spend decades making a massive ship to avoid a local flood? He knew it was coming and could have walked slowly away from this local area in a relatively short period of time. What foolish god would tell them to invest so much money and time building an unnecessary boat!
---Warwick on 12/19/09


alan8566_of_uk You should read more carefully what Trav said ... He was suggesting the water rose to 15 cubits above the mountain peaks.

On the other hand what the ancients called 'mountains' we are more inclined to call 'hills'.

Mount Carmel for instance is only 1724 feet and Mt.Nebo is a mere 3300 feet with a church built on it. Ararat,otoh,is snow covered and 12,782 feet but the water may not have been over that peak.
---Lee1538 on 12/18/09


Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them, and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh, and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly,
---MIchael on 12/18/09


However, it is possible that many of those civilizations actually were descendents of those that got off Noah's boat and settled in areas that were not inhabited at the time of the flood.---Lee1538 on 12/18/09

I refer only to those that did. Egyptians, Minoans, Chinese, Phonecians. Consider, if even one did it nullifys global. But, GOD already witnesses than with "erets".

If Noah could record (we have it)....his offspring could/would.

These of Noah would not have taken up where the previous writers on stone left off. Or taken up the lifestyle or characteristics of the former.
The main point is ....it was not global. So if Global is a falsehood....why do we cling to it?
---Trav on 12/18/09


"..I will wipe from the face of the Erets every living creature I have made."

7:21 "every living thing that moved on the Erets perished, ... Just what it says, and nothing more!
---Warwick on 12/18/09

GOD cannot lie. U R N A box.
Every living thing n the "country", "land" or "ground".
Erets= translates "country" 140 times, "land" 1,476 times, and "ground" 96 times in Old Testament.

When you were born....your "world" was pretty small. As an educated result of thousands of years of Israels blessings ....it is what you know now. Did you learn anything this year that was unknown last year?
---Trav on 12/18/09




//Fifteen cubits= (5 miles)26,400 feet above sea level. If global flood had happened.// - Trav

Thats a league, Trav

Sir, a cubit is the length of a man's arm from his elbow to his wrist.
---JackB on 12/18/09

Maybe it was GODs forearm cubit?? Laugh here.

JackB... nimble now. 15 cubits above the Mountains. If you chose use a 26,000 foot mountain...add 15 cubits above.

If you want a Thirteener (mountain)...use fifteen cubits above. Divide by two alkaline/salinity.
---Trav on 12/18/09


Jerry //Lee's religion is based on the things the Bible doesn't say, ,,, he relies solely on extra-biblical sources such as Bible commentaries and "Church Fathers."

Religion can make one crazy, but if you have Christ Jesus in your life, you will have a sound mind.2Timothy 1:7.

I know you 2 hate commentaries, however, the good ones written by Godly men called into the ministry of teaching, make full use scripture and effectively are just another teacher for our benefit, often point out the fallacies of nonscriptural positions.

Imagine that Paul9594 called Jesus the Law when Jesus came to redeem us from the law.
Gal. 4:5f

Galatians is a very dangerous books legalists are very afraid to read.
---Lee1538 on 12/18/09


JackB ... You should read more carefully what Trav said ... He was suggesting the water rose to 15 cubits above the mountain peaks.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/18/09


trav//There are several civilizations that left evidence of not being involved in a global flood at this time.

Yes, we all know that and that is one of the problems with those that make assumptions but lack the ability to do critical thinking.

However, it is possible that many of those civilizations actually were descendents of those that got off Noah's boat and settled in areas that were not inhabited at the time of the flood.

And many of those civilizations really had not developed the means of recording any such flood.
---Lee1538 on 12/18/09


The phrase 'on the earth' simply means that area of habitation.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09

1,712 witnesses to your statement Lee. Good start on anyones house/foundation. If the brick/stone are large enough....a castle.
Truth is like a house. Built one brick at a time.
Timeline of flood est 2344 to 2345.

There are several civilizations that left evidence of not being involved in a global flood at this time. After all, their writings, cuniform tablets, etc would have just stopped. And never be picked up again.
---Trav on 12/18/09




Lee, you have scant knowledge of Scripture. You wrote "The verses states that God desired to wipe out all life, meaning human life." God's word, as usual, contradicts you- e.g. Genesis 6:7 " I will wipe mankind, whom I have created from the face of the earth-men and animals..." 7:4 "..I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." 7:21 "every living thing that moved on the earth perished, birds, livesoock, wild animals...and all mankind. Just what it says, and nothing more!

You claim the flood was local, and there have been countless local floods since. You call God a liar as he said He would never bring such a flood upon the earth again.
---Warwick on 12/18/09


Trav, 1. How do you know the height of the mountains
2. There are marine fossils on peak of Mt Everest.
3. This means it was under water.
4. How do you know the salinity level of oceans then?
4... you accept about 6,ooo years, as the genealogies show?
---Warwick on 12/17/09

1. How do you. If you like we can establish.
Cut the height in 1/2 if you like.
,wouldn't change all the other facts,like Egyptians and 34 ARKs needed.
2. The world was covered completely with water Gen1:2-7.
3. Mt Everest wasn't always a mtn. C 2.
4. You don't either. Even without the alkalines/salts. Most plants 1yr water=rot. You assume adapted species.
5. Adams, line is.
---Trav on 12/18/09


//Fifteen cubits= (5 miles)26,400 feet above sea level. If global flood had happened.// - Trav

Thats a league, Trav

Sir, a cubit is the length of a man's arm from his elbow to his wrist.

Using your measurements Noah's Ark would have been...

100 miles high (300 cubits)
17 miles wide (50 cubits)
10 miles high (30 cubits)

That would put it somewhere between the Mesosphere and Ionosphere in height.
---JackB on 12/18/09


Lee: "The verses states [sic] that God desired to wipe out all life, meaning human life [ASSUMPTION!] - the purpose of the flood. Certainly God did not have anything against the animals living where there were no inhabitants."

Again, you read into the text things that are not there...assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. When will you ever learn?

You really have much to learn.

If God did not intend to kill animals, he sure did a lot of collateral damage according to the fossil record. Even today, animals know how to migrate own their own. What makes you think they didn't back then - not highly evolved enough?
---jerry6593 on 12/18/09


Warwick//Are you saying there were no animals living where man had yet to spread? Surely not?

The verses states that God desired to wipe out all life, meaning human life - the purpose of the flood. Certainly God did not have anything against the animals living where there were no inhabitants.

Again, you read into the text things that are not there...assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. When will you ever learn?

You really have much to learn.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


Trav, your base your rejection of the global flood upon assumptions. How do you know the height of the mountains at the time of the flood? Yours is a baseless wild guess.

There are marine fossils on the peak of Mt Everest. This means it was under water. Does this mean waters rose above its present height (8,848 metres (29,029 FT) or that during the flood it was much lower?

It is an observed fact that seeds can last for long periods in sea water. Rafts of vegetation containing seeds have been observed washing up on distant islands, and growing there.

How do you know the salinity level of the oceans then?

If you don't know how old the earth is will you accept about 6,ooo years, as the genealogies show?
---Warwick on 12/17/09


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Lee you are forced to reinterpret Noah's flood through your long-ages views thereby rejecting the obvious.

Consider Genesis 9:11 God says "I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood, never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." You claim "on the earth" simply means "that area of habitation." Therefore God has lied, as countless life taking, destructive floods have occurred since. How do you answer this?

You write "at that time most of the earth was not populated so there would be very little reason for a flood to be world-wide."

Are you saying there were no animals living where man had yet to spread? Surely not?
---Warwick on 12/17/09


It was God's plan, that the flood happened after humans disobeyed God.
It explains how things can be less old than when the Scientists trying to carbon date.
---Clive on 12/17/09


\\Cluny: "I'm not a geologist--but I seriously propose that MAYBE, just MAYBE the flood and the breaking up of Pangea into the present configuration of continents are related."

Congrats! You've been studying your Bible.

Gen 7:11 ...
---jerry6593 on 12/16/09\\

I've never said the Flood didn't happen.

I've not thought of the scientific implications of how fast it would take Pangea to break up, but I'll admit that the idea was planted in my head by the movie 2012, which could well be bad science.
---Cluny on 12/17/09


Trav, upon what basis do you say fifteen cubits equals (5 miles)26,400 feet above sea level?
BTW Trav, how old do you believe the earth is?
---Warwick on 12/16/09

Water covered the highest mountains....fifteen cubits above. It is an estimate since their are higher mountains....but, factor that the mountains are still growing every year at different rates.
The water pressure would be incredible around 800 psi. That's per square inch. No plant life, trees,weeds,seeds could survive ten months of this....additionally the salinity from sea water.
I don't know how old. Fossils have been made in 40 years. But, sediments are a little different. We haven't even gotten there yet.
---Trav on 12/17/09


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Ge 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

The purpose of the flood was to destroy all flesh, howbeit, at that time most of the earth was not populated so there would be very little reason for a flood to be world-wide.

The phrase 'on the earth' simply means that area of habitation.
---Lee1538 on 12/17/09


Excellent point Catherine. In Genesis 9:11 God says 'I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood, never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

Some who blog here insist that Genesis ch.'s 6-9 is referring only to a local flood. They must therefore beleve Genesis 9:11 means: ....Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a local flood, never again will there be a local flood to destroy part of the earth.

Therefore they are saying God lied as local floods have occurred countless times since then with great loss of life and major landform destruction.

The local flood idea does not come from Scripture.
---Warwick on 12/17/09


Warwick ... I think Trav must be referring to the bible indicating the waters rose 15 cubits above the mountains.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/17/09


Trav:

Gen 7:19,20 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth, and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

The waters were not a TOTAL of 15 cubits deep, but were 15 cubits HIGHER than the HIGHEST hill. The Hebrew word "gabar" - translated above as "prevail" has as its root the meaning of "exceed." Thus, the waters "exceeded" the highest hill by 15 cubits.
---jerry6593 on 12/17/09


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Trav, thank you for your answer. I will research some of what you said. I still do not see the connection with Universalism because under that theology everyone gets saved in the end. Your separation is between Israel and everyone else. But the whole world was corrupt Israel and everyone, especially those who never heard of God were corrupt. Again thanks, I will leave you since now you are getting questions like, when was the world created? and pretty soon how hot was the water at the time the flood came and other topics. Peace
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


Trav, upon what basis do you say fifteen cubits equals (5 miles)26,400 feet above sea level?

BTW Trav, how old do you believe the earth is?
---Warwick on 12/16/09


Trav, ...I see you made one comment that I didn't understand ---MarkV. on 12/16/09

Universalist doctrines, foundationally requires all coming from Noah.
Note that God deals with Isra-EL as with Noah. Blessing or punishment. Noah's peoples perished. He was perfect in his GENERATIONS. Did GOD punish all others for Isra-EL's sins? He punished IsraEL.
Noahs days connected/referenced in N.T. by Israelites, in an Israelite History Book, so Israelites...and others might beware.

To interject/incorporate Civilzations that were not involved w/Noah is too add to that which was separate. One World Universal. Cath-olic. Popular/seems logical....just not scriptural/gospel. Wide is the way. Noah found the narrow.
---Trav on 12/16/09


FIfteen cubits (25 feet) of water was enough to cover the "mountains".
Isnt it right there in front of our faces?
---JackB on 12/16/09

Fifteen cubits= (5 miles)26,400 feet above sea level. If global flood had happened.
Continental drifting? This is an interesting idea....but, given the timeline of the flood and the writings left in stone by Egyptians, Minoans and others just don't know if there was time. I speculate that Continental drift precedes Adam...but haven't researched any.
We know the time line of the flood. The continents would have to have moved at the rate of 1-? miles or more per year to establish present positions since Noah.
---Trav on 12/16/09


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Trav, I understand your disagreement concerning translations but all we need is a good wordstudy Bible with translations to make a good interpretation, but I see you made one comment that I didn't understand and that is,

"An interesting fact is, local flood vs global changes nothing except false doctrine of universalism"

The question is, How in your opinion does making it a global flood make it a false doctrine of Universalism?
Universalism means everyone gets saved in the end, which is a false doctrine for sure that some preach here, who don't believe in hell. I don't see the connection. Can you comment on that?
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


Yes, well. If the flood was local, then God lied to Noah when He promised never to send a destructive flood again [Gen. 9:11]. But there have been, of course, many local destructive floods since. There are many scriptures which tells us that the "Great flood" was world wide. You may look them up.
---Catherine on 12/16/09


Milton Terry believe that the flood description should be understood Phenomenologically, which means local. But I disagree with him. It had to be Noumenologically (God's perspective).
---MarkV. on 12/16/09

An interesting fact is, local flood vs global changes nothing except false doctrine of universalism.

GOD did not hand write scripture. He intrusted men,who got it right initially. Men, translated scriptures(several times) from unfamiliar language (to us)...to the english taken at face value.

Another interesting thing is we all would agree we hold "TRANSLATED" by men/scriptures given by GOD. 1 might research carefully instead of challenging....over 1700 times.
---Trav on 12/16/09


Trav, problem is my foundation is God's word alone, while yours is a mixture of man's beliefs and God's word. If man's beliefs are contrary to Scripture you reinterpret Scripture via man's opinions. ... you wrote "Civilizations marched through flood." This comes not from God's word but man's untestable beliefs. ---Warwick on 12/15/09

Well, see I notice a similar aspect about you. You love modern translation when the original just don't fit your universalism doctrine. My Gospel/Truth is found in witnesses in scripture. Further witnessed where GOD places them.

What you call untestable is written in rock. Best Recorders of their own History and some others....the Egyptians. The march right through the period.
---Trav on 12/16/09


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Jack B, that was a great answer you gave. I am hardly ever against what Trav says, but in this case I have to disagree with him. I understand why he suggest local. In Scripture many times when the writer writes something, he is seeing thing through his eyes, and so he writes the high mountains that he sees. From his perspective. But there is enough clues to make the argument that it was universal since God spoke and said what He would do. That is seeing things from the eyes of God, not men. Milton Terry believe that the flood description should be understood Phenomenologically, which means local. But I disagree with him. It had to be Noumenologically (God's perspective).
---MarkV. on 12/16/09


Cluny: "I'm not a geologist--but I seriously propose that MAYBE, just MAYBE the flood and the breaking up of Pangea into the present configuration of continents are related."

Congrats! You've been studying your Bible.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
---jerry6593 on 12/16/09


Has anyone considered that the waters being gathered unto "one place" and dry land appearing, which God called Earth (erets), suggests that there was only 1 continent in the beginning, as science is also claiming?

FIfteen cubits (25 feet) of water was enough to cover the "mountains".

Noahs family and animals exit the Ark. After many years God confounds our language and scatters the people at the Tower of Babel, He splits the earth at our current crustal plates to separate men even further to keep them from coming together again.

Notice the reference to Peleg (his name means "earthquake") and how the earth (erets) was divided in his day?

Isnt it right there in front of our faces?
---JackB on 12/16/09


Trav, the problem is my foundation is God's word alone, while yours is a mixture of man's beliefs and God's word. If man's beliefs are contrary to Scripture you reinterpret Scripture via man's opinions. For example you wrote "Civilizations marched through the flood." This comes not from God's word but man's untestable beliefs. God was there, they weren't. God makes no mistakes and does not lie.

You say it was a local flood but God says "Genesis 7:4 "...I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made." But you say He is wrong as the flood did not wipe out every land-dwelling creature He made. According to you God sure gets it wrong.

How old is the earth Trav?


---Warwick on 12/15/09


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Trav, at face-value Genesis ch.'s 6-8 (and the NT) clearly describe the flood as global, over and over.

Again consider "2 Peter 3:7 "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." As you say earth is 'erets' in Hebrew therefore you are saying the coming destruction will also be local? Yes or no?

I quoted Genesis 7:19: "all (Heb. kol) the high mountains under all (Heb. kol) the heavens were covered." Sometimes a single 'kol' is used in the meaning of the land, or a country, but never the double 'kol.' If you believe I am in error show me from Scripture.
---Warwick on 12/15/09


Trav,

2 Peter 3:6,7 ...the world of that time... was deluged... If you disagree please give chapter and verse.
---Warwick on 12/14/09

Civility, a nice change for us. It is not by 2 verses that I know this truth. It is by 1,712 times that "erets" witnesses. It is knowing scientifically/mathamatically, global is not witnessed. Civilizations marched through the flood.
It may be hidden for some.
The hard part for most, as myself is to search/unlearn? And accept what GOD has set in place.
This people, of Adam-Noah...Abraham-Jacob-Israel....were chosen to rule with GOD. They had the heart that with a little help from the husband completed what GOD desires.
---Trav on 12/15/09


Trav, though reasonable deduction has its place I am working from God's word.

2 Peter 3:6,7 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

Peter is saying the world was destroyed by the flood and that 'the present heavens and earth' will also be destroyed. The wording-'heavens and earth' shows Peter was conversant with Genesis chapter 7. If the flood was local then the coming destruction must be likewise. But it isn't.

Every Scripture I have researched speaks only of a world-wide flood.

If you disagree please give chapter and verse.
---Warwick on 12/14/09


Trav it is ironic when you claim I am working from deduction, when it is you who ignores the straight-forward meaning of Genesis 6-8. You deduce the words mean the opposite of what they say. These chapters over and over say all, every, everything entire, but you deduce they don't mean this at all.

Ktiso quoted Genesis 7:19: '"all (Heb. kol) the high mountains under all (Heb. kol) the heavens were covered" Very rarely, a single kol is not universal, but such a *double kol* can be nothing but universal.' But true to form you deduce he is wrong. Please give an example from Scripture where the double kol is used to mean local?

Your view undermines the gospel which is based upon death entering the world after Adam's sin.
---Warwick on 12/14/09


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Cluny who are you addressing your question to?
---Warwick on 12/15/09


earl: "The question remains-If a global flood,why did they not know their own people???????"

Are you serious??????? They were separated by hundreds of miles and many centuries from their Noaic ancestors. I doubt you'd recognize your ancestors from centuries ago either.
---jerry6593 on 12/15/09


\\ Trav, you wrote "GOD knew world was a round planet....Men didn't."

1) How do you know this? \\

Are you saying that God did NOT know the world was a round planet?

Or are you suggesting the world went from flat to spherical as a result of the flood?

I'm not a geologist--but I seriously propose that MAYBE, just MAYBE the flood and the breaking up of Pangea into the present configuration of continents are related.

(It's not an idea I lose sleep over.)
---Cluny on 12/14/09


3) 2 Peter 3:6,7 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and ....
---Warwick on 12/14/09

"World of that Time" was deluged. Wow, that is specific. Not.
Tap dance with some other facts. These give a very different problem for total "Catastrophics". Several civilizations marched right through the time period. Egypts, "Old Kingdom," extended from 2800 to 2175 B.C., third through the tenth dynasties. No record of a sudden and complete great deluge. Minoan's,Phonecians, Chinese etc. March right through the time line.
This Large Area flood did eradicate Noahs Line. It probably did not affect yours.
---Trav on 12/14/09


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As you believe God's judgement via Noah's flood was local then it must follow that the coming judgement is also local.
---Warwick on 12/14/09

You are operating on deduction, instead of witness. Your variables and unknowns, will always be so. They melt away....when you have substantial/multiple witness of irrefutable substance.
Your doctrine, must have all coming from Noah. The only difference in my evidence are....we did not.
Your doctrine is universalism, GOD's doctrine is the Kingdom, ruling with Is-ra-EL. Reunited in scripture Heb 8:8. You seem jealous, instead of honoring GOD in his plan.
---Trav on 12/14/09


Warwick,Jerry,
You cannot explain away the scouting party finding people unlike themselve and was amazed at their numbers living in this area.Again,this throws credibility away from a global flood for a local flood.
If the 8 survivors offspring were multiplying then they would have already known of who lived where for it would be they that possessed all the surrounding territories.But ,they did not know.
The question remains-If a global flood,why did they not know their own people???????They obviously did not.
---earl on 12/14/09


Trav, you wrote "GOD knew world was a round planet....Men didn't."

1) How do you know this?

2) You propose God caused a local flood but in His word said-Genesis 7:19 " ....and all the high mountain under the entire heavens were covered." This describes a local flood?? What a deceitful God you propose.

3) 2 Peter 3:6,7 "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

As you believe God's judgement via Noah's flood was local then it must follow that the coming judgement is also local.
---Warwick on 12/14/09


Trav, You obviously hold extraBiblical views causing you to reinterpret God's word, away from the obvious meaning.

In Genesis ch.s 6-8 God's word says over and over-the whole world, all humans and all animals were destroyed in the flood. But to you all doesn't mean all because it does not fit with your extraBiblical views.

Show me one Scripture which says it was local.

Genesis 7:4 "...I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

Do you imagine the flood wiped out all the creatures in one locality but God thought these constituted "every living creature I have made."?

Or did men get it all wrong again?

Or is it that you are wrong?
---Warwick on 12/14/09


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Trav, yours is a common error.
1. Holding liberal views you propose Scripture is from man, not God's word. See 2 Tim. 3:16
2. If you are correct how can we trust any Scripture? We can't.
3.Maybe that is your purpose for being here? ---Warwick on 12/12/09

1. Mine, no error I have witnesses. Liberal? I point,not indoctrinate.

2. I don't propose, it is evident to the re-searcher that "men" did translate for their period of understanding at an earlier age. Translations that the original word meanings explain. I (Berean,trust) all researched scripture.

3. My Purpose,as Christs. Looking/sharing good news (Truth) with Lost Sheep of House of Israel. The other stick. Ezekiel 37:19/Heb 8:8
---Trav on 12/14/09


Trav, you wrote "The same word is used in Hebrew of the plagues. The whole "Erets" was covered by locust."

You are partly correct. ---Warwick on 12/12/09

We'll start at the bottom of your post. GOD knew world was a round planet....Men didn't.

False idea? That the King James is not a Trans-lation of MEN? Of the originals? You have/will blind yourself/others...purposefully then.

ERETS= LAND 1476 times, COUNTRY 140 times, GROUND 96,times. Compatible with Noah's time. You are afraid to be.
Double Kol emphasizes that I stated earlier. Universally over the ERETS/ Large Land Area and NOAH's Line as stated in scripture.
---Trav on 12/14/09


earl: Yours is one of the worst attempts at logic I've ever seen. You state several unrelated (and wrong) "facts" about giants and grasshoppers and conclude "Conclusion-local flood."

The Bible clearly states:

Gen 7:19,20 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth, and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

How else would you explain the presence of marine fossils at the summit of Mt. Everest?

What makes you think that Noah and his family were not ALL giants? The human race has "devolved" since that time. We are not only much shorter, but we don't live nearly as long.
---jerry6593 on 12/14/09


Earl I am having trouble understanding where you are coming from.

I think you are saying all the people of the earth are not descended from Noah, and his family. Correct?

I can only imagine you believe this, as you think there could not be enough genetic variation in these 8 people to produce all the variety of humans which have existed. Correct?

Do you believe Goliath was a human being, descended from Adam?

BTW the global flood is not an assumption but the clear meaning of Genesis ch.s 6-8 and various verses in the NT. Read it and point out where the language refers to a local event.
---Warwick on 12/14/09


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Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail, and the mountains were covered.

Obviously things were a lot different in Noahs day with 40 foot tall 'mountains'.

Gen 10:25 And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg, for in his days was the earth divided, and his brother's name was Joktan.

Interesting Pelegs name means "earthquake" and scientists believe, as do most of us, that the world was at one time 1 continent.

Possible that plate shifting has occured faster than what the "experts" claim?
---JackB on 12/14/09


It affected the entire planet according to scripture. Everything and everyone not in the arc was/were destroyed.
---jody on 12/13/09


Warwick,
You state,"They were also descendents from Adam".It cannot be so with global flooding because only 8 survivors with the global flood assumption.
Therefore the survivors and their offspring should have known of who is who and where the grasshoppers lived.Of course the survivors evidently did not have any giantism characteristics.If they did they would not have reported the unusual characteristics.
Conclusion-local flood
---earl on 12/13/09


Earl the scouting party were the ancestors of those who had spent 300+ years in Egypt and 40+ in the desert. The people they discovered, while scouting, were not of their direct family, but kin in the sense they also were descended from Adam. But separated for a long time. There is nothing in Scripture to suggest they were not human.

What you are proposing is contradicted by Scripture and that is the question: Does Scripture say Noah's flood was local or worldwide? Read Genesis ch.'s 6-8 and show where anything suggests a local flood.
---Warwick on 12/13/09


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Warwick ,
the tell tale sign of inconsistency is the scouting party knowing their Noah and the eight were the only survivors, discovered people who were not of their kin -related to them.
If they was then the scouting party would have recognized them and would not have reported them as a possible threat.
As the story goes God realized he has to destroy his creation because dissatisfaction in it.Yet before this God said his creation is good-satisfied.This story is inconsistent if God knows the end before the beginning.So is it true that God had to discover for himself that his creation was no good?If so then God from this story is not very perceptive.The God I know understands his creation . Inconsistencies-Conclusion -local flood
---earl on 12/13/09


It was worldwide.
---Eloy on 12/13/09


Trav, you wrote "The same word is used in Hebrew of the plagues. The whole "Erets" was covered by locust."

You are partly correct. Erets can be used of the land, or the earth. However see Genesis 7:19: "all (Heb. kol) the high mountains under all (Heb. kol) the heavens were covered" Very rarely, a single kol is not universal, but such a *double kol* can be nothing but universal. As Ktiso wrote.

Also "Round World none would concieve anyway, until 500 years ago." Once again you propose the false idea that Scripture was written from man's intellect and knowledge. I am quite sure God always knew the world was spherical.
---Warwick on 12/12/09


Trav, you attempt to evade the point. Two Peter 3:5-7 equates the destruction of the world by the flood to the coming destruction of the world. Following your reasoning the coming judgement will also be local.

I do not defend 'doctrine' but that which Scripture says and that which Jesus and the apostles taught. I trust what Scripture says, not man's falible opinions. You do not reject the world-wide flood for Biblicl reasons but because your beliefs are a mixture of Scripture (where it suits) and man's ever-changing philosophies. See Colossians 2:8
---Warwick on 12/12/09


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Earl, all people on earth are genetically very close-both of the one original created kind and the one species, as all humans can interbreed. We are all descended from the 8 inhabitants of the ark, as Scripture says.

Explorers discovered many peoples 'unlike themselves,' nonetheless humans, of the same species.

You are reading something into Scripture which just isn't there. That all land-dwelling air-breathing animals and humans were destroyed is stated numerous times in Genesis chapters 6-8.

Scientifically speaking there is only one skin colour, brown, from the pigment melanin. Every human skin, hair, and eye colour is formed from this brown pigment. How amazing is our God that He creates blue eyes from a brown pigment.
---Warwick on 12/12/09


Trav, yours is a common error. Holding liberal views you propose Scripture is from man, not God's word. See 2 Tim. 3:16

Genesis 7:19: "all the high mountains under all the heavens were covered" You, falsely believing Scripture man-made, imagine this was written in ignorance of reality. It was just local but they didn't know!

Consider Job 26:7 '...he suspends the earth over nothing.' How then did they know the earth is indeed suspended in space held up by nothing visible?

If you are correct how can we trust any Scripture? We can't. Maybe that is your purpose for being here?

Maybe the substitutionary death and resurrection of Jesus is just what some tribe believed? If you are correct, why not?
---Warwick on 12/12/09


Warwick,The scouting party saw people unlike themselves.They were not their kind.
The scouting party obviously did not recognize them as being their own people which leads to this,If the flood was global then all currently known races of color ,white,red,brown,yellow and black came fourth from eight people's genetics.
Noah's family and descendants without question should have known of who relatives are and records normally kept but the scouting party did not.Yet there are up to 5 tables of lineage recorded in the bible .Where is the red man as well as others in this lineage line up?Noah's family must have gave birth to a color other than what is today recognized in the mid east and surrounding territories.Conclusion-local flood.
---earl on 12/11/09


Does Scripture say Noah's flood was local, or world-wide? Blog Question.

Local as in 400,000 sq miles.

It was their erets (world)......as wide as they percieved/concieved and was known of it.

Were no maps. No history books. No GPS's, surveyors or weather channel. No google erets. Wally Erets or turtle holding the world up at that time.

---Trav on 12/11/09


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See 2 Peter 3:5-7 which links the destruction of the world by the flood to the coming destruction of the world. Is the coming destruction therefore also local? If so most evil people will not be judged!
---Warwick on 12/10/09

Well, he guided Noah with an Ark....I believe he can gather the elect of The House Israel...and others much more easily....this time around. As it were in the days...only Noah had an ARK.

In your fear of this partial flood event you not only miss a greater truth. You hinder those you claim to seek. Now your doctrine, needs "global" so all come from Noah. But, if this isn't a truth then you preach a lie. Not researching once it has been pointed too, will not cleanse you.
---Trav on 12/11/09


God intended to kill every human,except noah,and his family,by preserving life 2 of each all animals also,to assume it was local makes no sense,and sounds more like an explanation seen on the science channel.
---tom2 on 12/10/09

No assumption. It does like science. Until we realize it was Noahs lines that were corrupted.....Except Noah.

The same word is used in Hebrew of the plagues. The whole "Erets" was covered by locust. Cain was driven from the face of the "Erets" (Outer space?)
Most often used on a limited land area rather than the entire planet. Round World none would concieve anyway, until 500 years ago.
---Trav on 12/11/09


The Genesis description of the flood is definitely meant to be taken as worldwide. If it was meant to be taken as local God would have told us so, and not have used the double 'kol'.
---Warwick on 12/9/09

Keep searching earl. Civilizations march right through the flood period. Egyptian most known. They didn't just stop...and start writing and building again.

A double "kol" implies that it was universally over the same "erets" in question. It can be estimated this area was around 500,000 sq miles. Little too large to walk out of herding diverse animals.
It would have taken over 30 Arks. Water pressure would have killed all the diversification in grass/plant/tree/insect life we know about today.
---Trav on 12/11/09


And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. Genesis 9:11
Sounds like world-wide to me.
---KarenD on 12/8/09

Establish my covenant with you. Hmmm. Must have been someone else,somewhere for this to be meaningful/special/separate=holy.

Kinda speaks on it own. But, we also know he had other covenants......established only with who? The lineage of....to be a blessing to...who.

(Strong's O.T. #776). Erets does not carry any connotation of a global, spherical planet in its translation.
---Trav on 12/11/09


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Earl the question is: Does Scripture say Noah's flood was local, or world-wide?

You believe certain tall humans survived the flood because they were tall. But this is speculation, not from Scripture, isn't it?

Today we have great variation in human height-tiny pygmies to other Africans who tower over them. Both descendants of Adam.

Your view is contradicted by Genesis 7:21 'All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind.'

See 2 Peter 3:5-7 which links the destruction of the world by the flood to the coming destruction of the world. Is the coming destruction therefore also local? If so most evil people will not be judged!
---Warwick on 12/10/09


God intended to kill every human,except noah,and his family,by preserving life 2 of each all animals also,to assume it was local makes no sense,and sounds more like an explanation seen on the science channel.
---tom2 on 12/10/09


Warwick my conclusions are are based on the tell tale reference of a group of scouts that was sent out to doscover new territory to inhabit and their discovery was a race of people who they discovered that were more in population size than they were .Their conclusion was there was more of them than they were and this reveals that they was inhabitating a territory much longer and was well established group of people who was unlike their stature.
The flood was of no effect to them for if it did then the scouts would not have recognized their plentiful population.
And ,there is an aditional source that supports this view that I agree with.
---earl on 12/10/09


Earl you are of course entitled to your view however your conclusions are based on speculation. The Genesis description of the flood is definitely meant to be taken as worldwide. If it was meant to be taken as local God would have told us so, and not have used the double 'kol', as Ktiso pointed out :Genesis 7:19:'"all (Heb. kol) the high mountains under all (Heb. kol) the heavens were covered" Very rarely, a single kol is not universal, but such a *double kol* can be nothing but universal.'

And as he also pointed out why would Noah spend decades building an ark to escape a local event. And God let him?
---Warwick on 12/9/09


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Giantism was biblically recognized pre flood and post flood. The writer defined a human population seperate and unlike the appearances of the flood escapees then a later discovery -post flood-of the like population of giantism refered to in the likeness of grasshoppers because ,as the story goes,there were a multitude population inhabiting the area observed by the scouting party.
From the description -like grasshoppers-the flood had no observable effect upon this tall race of people.This one hiccup in the complete story vs. the short story gives no credit to a global flood.
Conclusion-local flood.
---earl on 12/9/09


The flood was on the earth, covered the entire earth so it was worldwide. Can I ask why you're asking?

Do you have a follow-up question? to this one?
---Donna on 12/9/09


And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood, neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. Genesis 9:11

Sounds like world-wide to me.
---KarenD on 12/8/09


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