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Always Obey The Government

Romans 13 says government should be submitted to because it's ordained by God. Were the Hebrew children wrong for refusing to obey the King (Daniel 3)? Were those who revolted against American slavery wrong? Was it wrong to overthrow Saddam Hussein? Should government always be obeyed no matter what?

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If you study Romans 13, ordained by God means that it will be a righteous government, not an EVIL govenment. Suppress the evil and promote the good. Some of these laws that are being past today promotes evil and is against God's word. And some laws are being past to suppress good. So, therefore, We have a God-giving right to reject any government which does not honor our Holy Father and His laws....GOD'S LAWS. And while ww are on the subject, what about God's rights. People are going to be sorry.
---catherine on 4/16/10

Yes, we should obey the governemnt, as long as the government does not ask us to do something that is forbidden by the Bible. And I mean DIRECTLY FORBIDDEN, not that a going pf people go through a complex line of reasoning, often fallacious, to find that something is unBiblical. And the slavery movement was different, because it was a slow movement to push the government to do what was right, not an 'I will not obey the government'. In the case of Saddam, we can say that becuae his government had significaly violated the human rights as listed in the Bible, it was no longer a proper government - possibly
---peter3594 on 4/15/10

When men's laws are contrary to God's laws we are to obey God without question...... More and more we are seeing this shapen. Wicked men are in power. Christians should know that this is not pleasing to God, and here it is>>> To do nothing and to say nothing while Satan keeps on a moving on in....It will not be only God's people who will suffer but unbelievers as well, when wicked men are in power the whole earth groans. So, start goaning, cowards!
---catherine on 4/15/10

With the exception of holy living, worship and preaching YES we are to obey because our law exceeds carnal law, so conflicts with the government should be few.
For Coptics in Egypt and Christians in China the government has sanctioned persecution for preaching and gathering of the saints. They must continue to serve God and suffer the consequences of an evil government.

It should be remembered government and marriage are biblical institutions and there is not one disparaging word in all of scripture about either institution. God invented both.

God deals with the evil king (leader) or disobedient spouse as an individual not as an institution.
---larry on 4/14/10

Catherine and Ralph: Be careful. Indeed, if the government is going against god's word, you are alowed to disobey it. BUT [and this is a big BUT], if its actios disagree with the way YOU consider that God wants, you are on a very slippery slops. You may actually be sinning. Ralph: you talk about the biometric.... already, if I call my bank, it will not even talk to me without my social security number. Is that different? If so, how. Do not just rant against the government because it is of a different party from what you like. I can see problems with the Christianity of both parties, as well as that of those who claim 'no government'. Take care
---peter3594 on 4/13/10

No, not if they are going against God and His word.
---Apple on 3/9/10

FYI: From today's WSJ- "Lawmakers working to craft a new comprehensive immigration bill have settled on a way to prevent employers from hiring illegal immigrants: a national biometric identification card all American workers would eventually be required to obtain.

...biometric data would likely be either fingerprints or a scan of the veins in the top of the hand. It would be required of all workers, including teenagers... employers would be able to buy a scanner to check the IDs for as much as $800. Small employers could take their applicants to a government office like the Department of Motor Vehicles and have their hands scanned there."

This would naturally be expanded to voting, travel, commerce, every aspect of life.
---ralph7477 on 3/9/10

Christians are never, ever, under subjection to injustice or a government of wickedness. Rulers are to be established to be a terror to evil and to promote the good. That is the basic principle of good government. [to promote the good and squash the evil dooers]. We are to respect any government which does so, and reject any goverment which does not....God's people has no business out and about rioting and rebelling, causing trouble. We are to be busy doing God's work. However, some will be accused of being a trouble-maker simply because they are witnessing for the Lord thy God. We are not the trouble-makers. It is the unbelievers.
---catherine on 3/7/10

Fay -- Yes I have miraculus things like this happen, too. And I thank God. But I've never maintained that God's workings are understandable to the human mind. They are NOT.

However, I don't believe in closing my eyes to facts in this physical world, which God created. Facts do not contradict God's Word. God gave us all the ability to reason. Remember, "Come let us reason together.." When I became a Christian I didn't check my mind at the door. My mind also was given me by God and I think He intended me to exercise it.
He helps me make difficult decisions, but He trusts me to make most of the little ones.
---Donna66 on 3/2/10

Amen Fay

the spiritual is not always reasonable to the logical reasoning mind that demands facts to see and relying on themselves instead of God

I can do ALL THINGS through Christ Jesus

many don't comprehend or understand they can still do most of those same things without Christ

FAITH in the unseen DEFIES man made reasoning
---Rhonda on 3/2/10

--- AlwaysOn :

Sister, You're welcome Thanks Be To God !!!!! .... and I'll endeavor to remember. LOL

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 3/2/10

Thanks, Shawn. And btw I'm a "sister", not a "brother". LOL
---AlwaysOn on 3/2/10

Donna66,I was driving along one day singing with the radio and God spoke to my spirit, "You shouldn't be speeding," with such conviction I immediately apologized, slowed down, and promised him I was going to be more careful. A mile down the road there was an officer with radar. So, yes, God does care about every move we make.

When I receive a bill in the mail I ask God how am I going to pay it and he always supplies.

At least half of the questions on the last test I took(a 2 day course)I could not recall the answers. I asked God to guide me and I received 87%.

If I woke in the middle of the night to find my house on fire I would certainly ask God which way to flee.
---Fay on 3/1/10

Rhonda --- When you drive your car, do you seek the Holy Spirit to decide if the turn you about to make is legal?

When a bill comes in the mail do you ask God if the utility company really expects you to pay?

When a student, did you depend on the Holy Spirit to supply answers to test questions when you hadn't studied?

If you wake in the middle of the night to find your house on fire, do you pray about whether or not you should leave it? Do you say "I felt led of the Lord" to flee my burning house?

Even the holiest of Christians use facts and logic in everyday life.
---Donna66 on 2/26/10

The Word says there was no deceit in Jesus. If we are supposed to strive to be like Jesus then it is never correct to deceive in any way shape or form. In striving to be like Jesus we learn to follow the Holy Spirit in every situation, not facts or logic. We make choices to follow the Spirit or the "facts and logic" that we see with our own eyes. When we follow facts and logic we are following our own spirits, not God's. When we let go and let God have control of every situation then we will see with His spiritual eyes. I pray we all stop looking at facts and logic and look to Him.
---Fay on 2/26/10

1. I did not say that spiritual growth comes from obeying the government! I did say that everyday trials and decisions can stimulate spiritual growth in the Christian.
Do you disagree?

2 How did you conclude that I would "bow down to government and believe all it's outright lies"? Actually, I said just the opposite!!!
The government has lied a lot lately. But I won't accuse them, or anybody, of lies unless unless I have solid evidence, not mere assumptions. That is a primary tenet of our Justice system.

3. I never said facts and logic should replace walking in the Spirit. But they are not a "comfort" (Jesus is comfort) They are a necessity. I use them every day and SO DO YOU.
---Donna66 on 2/24/10

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If we we were such spiritual beings, we wouldn't need any government at all. We would need no rules nor have to make any decisions on the job or about our family.
We would not have to learn nor grow spiritually.

those who have the Holy Spirit DWELLING within are GUIDED in all matters spiritual

you are sadly mistaken if you believe your "spiritual growth" comes from obeying and serving ANY government on earth ...core of America was separation of church and state yet centuries have blurred that understanding and many bow down to their governments in blind faith somehow tying their spiritual growth to government obedience
---Rhonda on 2/24/10

How about obeying the laws of the land with eyes wide open, acknowledging dangerous possibilities, but ACTING on the basis of verifiable facts and logic.

FAITH is for things UNSEEN

those who are not led by SPIRIT often find comfort in logic and facts

I obey laws of land yet without BOWING DOWN to government believing all of its outright LIES like mindless herd who mistakenly believe they "obey" via cherished government "facts"

understanding the god of this world will not prevail by WATCHING those things come to pass

THAT UNDERSTANDING in faith Donna would NOT BE "verifiable" through your physical logic and facts and ACTION was never part of the equation of understanding
---Rhonda on 2/23/10

Fay -- You answer sounds very spiritual. But Jesus didn't need to rely on sight and logic. And we are not Jesus.
Do you think that YOU would have known that Jesus was going to raise Lazarus or heal the woman of the issue of blood? Nobody else did!

If we we were such spiritual beings, we wouldn't need any government at all. We would need no rules nor have to make any decisions on the job or about our family.
We would not have to learn nor grow spiritually.

Unless the Lord reveals to us specific instructions in the details our every day life we must rely on the gifts of sight and reasoning that God gave us. Indeed, we are unfaithful servants if we do not.
---Donna66 on 2/23/10

Donna66, we are not supposed to act on facts and logic. If Jesus acted on facts and logic no one would have been saved or healed when he walked this earth in physical form, or now. Facts and logic says the woman with the issue of blood would be that way until death. Facts and logic says Lazarus was dead, period.

We're supposed to act on faith.(Rom. 14:23) Not judging others because the facts or logic we see. We can't possibly see or know all the facts. Only Jesus knows the heart and all the facts. So, please don't act on what you see.
---Fay on 2/23/10

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-- Donna66 :

Sister, To speak is an action(Mark 11:23, Rom.10:9-10) that can move mountains. One thief spoke with Faith in his Heart(which you see as a change of attitude : Ok) & the other with doubt, but actions(like everything else) "ARE" all flash & no substance when it is done without Faith, b/c whosoever is not of Faith is sin : and Rom.14:23 is what I've been endeavoring to share !!

... but TBTG that at least you see the Light & Hear God's Spiritually Discerned Word that anything that does not have the Justification of His Saving Faith behind it, shall be Judged as sin : Whether it be ones beliefs or actions, as Eloy & yourselves have been quibbling about.

Grace Unto You & Peace Be Multiplied
---ShawnM.T. on 2/23/10

Shawn.M.T -- I see it slightly differently. I don't agree that attitudes are all flash & no substance, where as the actions ...
The thief on the cross was incapable of action (other than to speak).
For him, faith represented a major change of "attitude", and he went to be with Jesus.
To me, actions may be "all flash and no substance" unless they are accompanied by FAITH. It's fairly easy to do what one thinks is "expected" or rewarded by other Christians, but there may little or no FAITH behind it all. God is He who judges.
---Donna66 on 2/22/10

--- AlwaysOn :

Brother, The Government should always be obeyed no matter what, to this existent ~ Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's !!!! Matt.22:21

... and to speak off subject, but to Danna66 ~ The evidence that no man can Save himself is crystal clear in the fact that we're Saved by the Grace of God through Faith, and Faith comes by Hearing & Hearing by the Drawing Word of God. John 6:44

So, There is no quibbling about whether Faith is an action or an attitude, b/c attitudes are all flash & no substance, where as the actions of Faith by which we're Justified & Saved are the substance of things Hoped for, evidence of things not seen. Heb.11:1
---Shawn.M.T on 2/22/10

Rhoda-- I have an alternative to being either a "conspiracy theorist" or a "government slave" following blindly.
How about obeying the laws of the land with eyes wide open, acknowledging dangerous possibilities, but ACTING on the basis of verifiable facts and logic.
---Donna66 on 2/22/10

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I do not consider myself a conspiracy theorist. But I do like to know what they think.

For about the last five or six years the soothsayers(seers) had a central theme running through their predictions. This theme had to do with" trouble on the Mexican border" do you believe that prediction by the conspirators has come true?
---mima on 2/22/10

.......Of course, if you are a conspiracy theorist, anything is possible.

hmmm now would it be more wise to acknowledge possibilities and be MARKED by those who love serve obey their government and media it OWNS as conspiracy theorists

or would it be better to be a government slave - masses of people who blindly obey serve believing everything their government says and does at ALL costs - government gives them candy and handouts and does ALL their thinking for them - they don't have to think they are TOLD WHAT TO THINK

thinking people are not the conspiracy to government but non-thinking people who do as told and willing accept all of governments agenda are most certainly conspiring AGAINST the thinking people
---Rhonda on 2/20/10

We are to always obey God's Word. We obey the government until it asks or requires that we disobey God's commands. You can't serve two masters. Godly principles must have priority over deceitful practices.
---Fay on 2/19/10

donna66 do a webb search put in rex84 and you will find several links with much information about the america concentration camps,FEMA will have authoity over them many of these are in exstence now. I am not a conspiracy theorist,I do not trust our government at this present time, first and formost I always lift our leaders up in prayer as we all should be doing.
God bless, ronmc.
---ronmc on 2/19/10

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Mima --- Eight hundred concentration camps constructed on a moments notice? That's almost as unbelievable as 800 already existing. (when has the government ever moved that quickly)
I seen several military bases closed. I know of none that were abandoned. They've been used for HUD housing construction, University education facilities or sold for private or state concerns. How quickly do you think these people would/could move out.
Of course, if you are a conspiracy theorist, anything is possible.
---Donna66 on 2/18/10

Concentration camps exist on this wise. They exist on paper, plans, drawings, ready to be put into physical existence at a moments notice.

It is generally believed among the conspiracy groups that the first physical camps will be put on old military bases.
---mima on 2/18/10

Ronmc --Just curious. How does the governmnet "hide" 800 concentration camps? That would be an average of 16 camps for every state!
---Donna66 on 2/17/10

noea...Very good job!
---catherine on 2/16/10

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When Government becomes corrupt, it is time not to submit, when Government says no prayer in school and no Nativity scene to be displayed, then do not submit. Our Government now feels that they have the right to tell us when we should die, they want to own us mind and soul. This is bad, Do not submit! Only the Lord has these rights, not the Government!
---noea on 2/16/10

In reference to obedience to our gov. We have given our presidents the power to declare martial law, and this is coming, and those not in compliance with the orders will end up in the hugh 800 concentration camps our gov. has kept quite about ,do you not know of the secret agenda, Gods word tells of the new world order, look up rex84 it is a eye opener. Ronmc.
---Ronmc on 1/1/10

When a government becomes evil, disregards its charter (constitution), and opresses the people it has sworn to serve, then it deserves not only to be disobeyed, but to be removed from power. The Obama government is such a self-serving, evil entity. Let's hope that Americans will wake up and clean out the filth that occupies the houses in Washington in the next elections.
---jerry6593 on 1/1/10

When any government tries to take over the roll reserved only for God, then that government is illegitimate in the sight of God. No government is worth it's salt if it fails to ackowledge God, and is not willing to bring Him in on all decisions. For any government to work for the better of all men, it must include God. It is true, Christians should not be into passing laws in such matters, because then it would be fake. You cannot force people into getting saved. Only Jesus can save. Still, for government to work, God must be in the center. And that's just the way it is.
---catherine on 12/31/09

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Mark E, #2: there is two times written in Scripture, that I found, concerning those who went against Goverment, One is found in book of Daniel.
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego all three refuse to follow goverment, the commands of the King and refuse to worship the gods of the king and the gold image which were set before them.
The second case is found in the New Testament Acts 18-21 where John and Peter both refuse to listen to the council. Made up of the Sanhedrin and Jews, the ruling body and supreme court, that had 71 members including a high priest. Why? because they were commanded not to speak in the name of Jesus. Those are two examples of opposing goverment given by Scripture.
---MarkV. on 12/31/09

Mark E, though you provided no Scripture, yet I will acknowledge that you are correct. Thank you for correcting me. I for one am a believer in the Sovereignty of God so I should have been able to answer this question better. I didn't and for that I am sorry. I had just got an answer from someone name mike on another blog and he was complaining how God is not in control and gave me so many reason why He wasn't. One was that he was faithful and yet somethings still happened, how could God be in control and so on.
After reading Romans 13:1-7, I completely agree with you to one point. And that point is that if the goverment is trying to make me as an individual disobey God or trying to make me sin against God then I should refuse.
---MarkV. on 12/30/09

Alan, Mark:

Both of you are incorrect and both of you are doubting God sovereignty and His word when you say that He did not establish but only permitted Hitler's government.

His ways are higher than our ways. God will establish the reign of the man of lawlessness also.

Rom 13:1 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority EXCEPT FROM God, and those which exist are ESTABLISHED by God"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/29/09

required for a Christian to submit to Government whatever forms. wither democratic, communist, or the king. We should required to pay taxes and not to overthrow

as LONG AS the government is operating within Gods Laws ...we are not to sit by and watch government KILL in name of government as murder is AGAINST Gods Laws

it is the will of God to establish leadership for His purpose ...ours is to submit to the purpose WITHING Gods Laws

in future when governments FORCE a religious day or brand on the world (as it did many hundreds of years ago) will you submit to government or seek Gods Word to live as God commands?
---Rhonda on 12/27/09

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Alan, I see what you are saying now. Hitlers goverment was not establish by God's will. That He permitted it to happen is for sure. That He knew it would happen is also for sure. That He made provisions concerning that goverment is also for sure. The many acts of many and the downfall of that goverment came to an end. So long as there is sin in the world this will continue to happen. God knows the intentions of everyone. He could stop it but doesn't, at least not yet. That He willed it to happen is not true. God did not make them sin, but He knew they would. That it was included in the plan is also true. Fallen man always go against His Perceptive will. Even Christians.
---MarkV. on 12/27/09

Mark ... "But we are to obey the law of the goverment. If the whole goverment is corrupt, then we should do everything possible to change it. Those who helped against Hitler were morally right"

That final sentence pleases me.

But between the first two sentences, where is the line drawn. Hitler's government did some good things. So how do we decide when the whole government is corrupt?

Now Rosalie ("The point is Christian should be the model to obey government") still seems to say that no Germans should have helped save the Jews.
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/27/09

MarkV ... Rosalie's statement: "It is required for a Christian to submit to Government whatever forms. wither democratic, communist, or the king. We should required to pay taxes and not to overthrow"

So she legitimised Hitler's government, as it was established by God's will. And so, it was unChristian to save Jews from the Hilter's gas chambers or to try and overthrow him.

You seemed to say that "We have no authority to violate this will" (i.e. His will that Hitler should reign and act as he did)

That's why I asked you "But does that then mean that those who saved some jews from Hitler's gas chambers were wrong and in defiance of God?"
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/27/09

Alan, I believe that Eloy and Rosalie answered the same. We are to be submissive to our goverment. But as they quoted, only if it is within the scope of righteousness. If what we are told to do is morally wrong, of course we should not do it. I am speaking about genuine believers. For they are guided by the Holy Spirit and their actions should be towards what God would want us to do.
Some feel voting is their power to change things. Some get more involve in certain matters, like abortion, and against Homo-sexual marriages. But we are to obey the law of the goverment. If the whole goverment is corrupt, then we should do everything possible to change it. Those who helped against Hitler were morally right.
---MarkV. on 12/27/09

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we are not here to discuss (if the Government is Good or Bad) The bible does not say if the Government is good obey...if bad disobey. We cannot argue that. The bible says submit to the authority. Wither the King, Emperor,president,sultan,prime minister,is christian,muslim or cummunist God knows them. And they will also answerable to God.

The point is Christian should be the model to obey government. (exemption is sharing the Word of God bec. we have to obey God than man)
---rosalie on 12/27/09

Alan, My answer was to bring about the different ways Scripture describes the will of God. I figure if I put them down, it would help concerning the will of God. Many say they are looking for the will of God, and think they know it, but many times the will of God is hidden from us. If the will we are seeking is hidden we are looking foolishly. He has not been please to make it known to us many times.
I don't understand the questions you ask, "was it wrong?" Do you think you can re-phrase the questions a little better. I also don't know what your argument is, or you point. I will do my best to answer.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09

MarkV ... You are right, we should nopt seek to thwart God's will.

But does that then mean that those who saved some jews from Hitler's gas chambers were wrong and in defiance of God?

Was Britain wrong to take steps eventually to stop Hitler spreading his evil over Europe? Should we just have said "God set up Hitler's rule, so we have to let it grow unopposed"
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/26/09

Alan #2: We have no authority to violate this will, we have the power and ability to thwart the preceptive will of God, but never the right to do so. His permission gives us the power but not the right to sin.
Third, the will of God can be understood in respect to God's "will of disposition" This will describes God's attitude. It describes what is pleasing to Him. Example, God takes no delight in the death of the wicked, yet He most surely wills or decress the death of the wicked. God's ultimate delight is in His own holiness. When He judges the world, He delights in the vendication of His own righteousness and justice. God is pleased when we find our pleasure in obedience. Hope this helps
---MarkV. on 12/26/09

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Alan, I hope this information helps, if not its ok. When we speak about God's will we do so in three different ways. The broader concept is known as God's Decretive, sovereign, or hidden will. By this we refer to the will of God by which He sovereignly ordains everything that comes to pass. Because God is sovereign and His will can never be frustrated, we can be sure that nothing happens over which He is not in control.
Then there is the "preceptive will." Here God reveals His will through His holy law. Example, it is the will of God that we do not steal, love our enemies, that we be holy, this will is revealed through His word as well as in our conscience, by which God has written His moral law upon our heart.
---MarkV. on 12/26/09

Rosalie ... So the SS who murdered 6 million Jews in the gas chambers were doing God's will. And those who sheltered the Jews (and sometimes got murdered themselveds for doing so) were certainly not true Christians.

& Pol Pot's actions were OK too.

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me"
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
---alan8566_of_uk on 12/23/09

It is required for a Christian to submit to Government whatever forms. wither democratic, communist, or the king. We should required to pay taxes and not to overthrow.

The exemption is sharing the word of God. WE must obey God rather than man. If a country ban bibles and prohibits one sharing gospel...then we should obey God. Nothing can stop us not to obey the command of God, even one ends in prisons or pay consequences. Remember in Paul's time, when christians were persecuted, they preached even The emperor was so worst. Nothing can stop Christians.
---ROSALIE on 12/22/09

Maybe not all of the Bible was inspired by God.
---amand6348 on 12/22/09

I disagree with every word in your post.

You certainly do NOT read your Bible.

God does establish the rulers in this world.

1 Pet 2:13 "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority"

Rom 13:1 "Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority EXCEPT FROM God, and those which exist are ESTABLISHED by God"
---Mark_Eaton on 12/22/09

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"Clergy Response Teams" are and have been trained by FEMA to quell dissent in the event Martial Law is implemented and being paid by the Federal government. Many churches are not revealing if their pastors are indeed on the FEMA payrolls.
I find this not only disturbing but ver un-Christ-like.
---Scott on 12/22/09

I love this question. Such a question as this means that you actually READ your Bible. This reminds me of learning about European History and how some kings were said to have "divine rule," as in God put them there?

I think that these verses clearly demonstrate (along with some others that have been found) that maybe some people writing these things were sucking up to certain authorities that existed during that day.

Maybe not all of the Bible was inspired by God.
---amand6348 on 12/22/09

Ralph, If a government would so happen to ask you or to tell you to disobey Jesus' Commandments, then you are obligated to continue to obey your God rather than that godless government. But if a government is not asking nor telling you to go against the commandments of Jesus, then continue to support your governement for there is no government infraction.
---Eloy on 12/22/09

The U.S. Congress and the President are inching closer toward controlling a large portion of citizens' lives by way of a government run health care system.

The Senate bill commands every citizen to obtain an insurance policy. In spite of the Constitution, the Congress of the United States of America will order everybody to purchase a product or service. Failure to do so will result in fines or imprisonment. The American Revolution was fought over far less egregious infringements of Liberty.

The next logical step is the mandate that all citizens receive a mark or chip containing medical records, income level, etc, without which you may not receive treatment. At what point should Christians disobey the government?
---ralph7477 on 12/21/09

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Man's government is not God, for God is much much much higher than man, and whenever the government chooses to disobey God, then that government is not ordained by God but is instead in blatant defiance against God and has placed itself under God's wrath and condemnation. It is recorded that when nations and governements historically rebell against God then God rightly judges and destroys them for their sins.
---Eloy on 12/21/09

"Should government always be obeyed no matter what?" No.

"We ought to obey God rather than men." Act 5:29

Therefore if the principles of government, violate the principles of our Father, they should to be rejected by those who revere Him. The Father's principles for life are clear. Faith, Hope, and Love, with Love as the greatest of these.
---joseph on 12/20/09

The Lord never wants us to submit to anything that brings him dishonor. The Holy Spirit lets us know when something is clearly the wrong thing to do as does the Word of God. We never have to compromise our faith and obedience to God no matter who is in authority.
---jody on 12/19/09

If government should always be obeyed because it is 'ordained of God' then when the antichrists reign comes and the government tells you to take the mark of the beast swearing allegiance to him, do we have to take it?

Nope God specifically says DONT
---JackB on 12/16/09

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Thanks for your reply, Friendly_Blogger. I'm particularly intrigued by your statement that Paul's message was not meant to be political, but to change individual perspectives, instead.

Regarding, "...your problem is you are attempting to rip scripture out of context to make a Straw Man and then beat it to death with with other scripture and occurrences." Please note that I merely posted questions. I haven't taken scripture out of context, nor have I created a Straw Man or beat him "to death" using any other scriptures.

You have a lot of wisdom and I respect your viewpoints, but I think all of us at Christianet benefit when we refrain from assumptions or use them to accuse one another. Agree?
---AlwaysOn on 12/16/09

AlwaysOn, your problem is you are attempting to rip scripture out of context to make a Straw Man and then beat it to death with with other scripture and occurrences.

Christs message and Paul's was non-political, it was direct to change the life of an individuals not the actions and norms of society as a whole.

The Book of Daniel was written for a political purposes using the hero Daniel as an illustration to solicit solidarity and resistance during the Greek Hellenization of Palistine.

The action against Saddam Hussein, was the action of one nation state against another and does not even fit the model.
---Friendly_Blogger on 12/16/09

When we place our lives within a Government's Rule,we are bound to uphold that Governments Laws,however when those Laws require us to go against God's Law then we must stand for God and his Law not the Government. Our position must not waver but remain commited to God no matter what,even if it means death. With all Americas faults there is still leeway in its Laws to allow us to follow God without death,at this point in time. How long this will be true I dare not guess,for things are changing at this time and not for the good. The President is making a point out of only recogizing Christmas as a Holiday and not a Christian Tradition.
---Darlene_1 on 12/14/09

To Whosoever Has An Ear To Hear?

Brethren, The powers that be are Ordained of God b/c "All things were made by Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made".

So, While there is no power but of God, every soul is to be subject unto the 'Higher Powers' which is the Will of God's Love.

--- AlwaysOn :

Brother, All things are Ordained by God, but the Will of God's Glory is the Providence in any Good Works through us. So never mistake fulfilling the law with submitting to government.

While all things are lawful unto us, all things are not expedient(Helpful). All things are lawful for us, but we're not be brought under the power of any : sole the Glory of God's Grace !!
---Shawn.M.T on 12/14/09

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Representing government as practiced in this country is a joke(because most representatives represent themselfs and not the people). But it is the best government that we have. I believe in "the divine right of kings" and at the same time understand that every pull as an opposite push the contest is to be on God side which usually (99% of the time) that we are to obey the existing government.
---mima on 12/14/09

there would be no usa today with that attitude.what we are to do is obey the laws,and those we disagree with ,work to change.its hard, because it seems our representatives aren,t voting as most americans would like them solution would be get rid of congress,and have the voters vote directly.ON EVERYTHING.
---tom2 on 12/14/09

The authorities spoken of in Romans 13 do "TRUE good" to keep society peaceful and democratic. Their agenda (democratic peaceful society) is acceptable to God (when they do their professional duty without corruption).

Hitler's authorities did their professional duty without corruption, but their agenda was not consistent with God's wishes/will.

Tyrants and corrupt politicians establish many authorities that are CONTRARY to God's will.

There will soon come a time (martial law, social unrest, gun confiscation) when Christians will be "encouraged" to avoid disobeying Romans13 because many pastors have promised the government help in controlling the Christian community when it becomes necessary.
---more_excellent_way on 12/13/09

AlwaysOn, this is an evil world. And secular governing authorities often are Satan's people whom God uses to keep the lid on evil so people can stay alive and find out about God, and then be obediennt to Him in the ruling of His peace in our hearts (Colossians 3:15). So, a secular authority person "is God's minister to you for good" (in Romans 13:4). But if ones would take us against God . . . well, we Christians are in charge, here, with Jesus, holding to God's standards, first (o: while ones of Satan's kingdom can be used to do the dirty work of taking out tyrants and stopping their wrong stuff. This can get messy, as much as it is not in God's guidance of His creative love. Meanwhile, we do greater good as He guides.
---Bill_bila5659 on 12/13/09

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