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Where Is Jesus In The OT

Did Jesus make several appearances in the OT?

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 ---jovani on 12/22/09
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Scott see Matt. 28.19, John 14:26, 15:26, Acts 13:2, Acts 5:3-4 where referring to The Holy Spirit, Scripture says:

People are baptized into His name
He is referred to as he
He is counselor
He teaches
He reminds
He testifies
He speaks
He commands
He calls Himself I
Peter equates lying to Him as lying to God.

Can the 'land, furrows, justice, righteousness, honesty and truth,' enter into personal relationship as the above shows the Holy Spirit does? Can we have fellowship with them? Is lying to them equated to lying to God?

Or are they just figures of speech like-the trees of the field will clap their hands?
---Warwick on 1/4/10

Cliff, as Scripture says Jesus came as a servant to do the will of the Father. "But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels..."

He willingly became a servant and died upon the cross but is no longer a servant. Though He made Himself a servant for a while He is no less God being worthy of honour and worship, exactly the same as we honour and worship the Father.

John 5:23 "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him."

Hebrews 1:6 "..let all God's angels worship Him."

Even the angels are commanded to worship Jesus! And worship is for God alone.

---Warwick on 1/4/10

"The Hebrew of "God" Elohim...plural beyond 2 persons." PASTOR_JIM 1/1/10

This assertion is flawed and is problematic for the trinitarian.

Consider- The Hebrew word for king is Melech. Plural 'kings' is Melechim.

The hebrew plural form identifies, not three, five or twenty persons in one king but several kings.

That basic principle of Hebrew, when applied to 'Elohim' identifies not multiple persons in one God, but multiple Gods. Polytheism.

The plural in Elohim is described by Hebrew scholars as "The plural of Majesty."

This is an argument most trinitarian apologists have abandoned and is seldom (if ever) used with Heb. speaking Jews.
---scott on 1/4/10

Cliff, Trav and others: Again, your worldly knowledge of spiritual matters do not amaze me.
---Steveng on 1/2/10

Man, i regret that. We'll will try harder now that the bar has been raised. Could you give us a silver star for caring in the first place??
You're the only reason we show up here. Can you pleaaaaassee tell us how to impress upon you. Perhaps with a hammer? A car tire on a light vehicle?

16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

17They zealously affect you, but not well, yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

18But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.
---Trav on 1/4/10

Trav, Yes, the death of the husband frees the wife to remarry
But God was the husband of adulteress Israel, and He's immortal. So she is NEVER free to remarry!
---1st_cliff on 1/2/10

You believe YAHSHUA,Christ son of GOD, & GOD. He died.

You believe the New Covenant, right?
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with house of Israel and with house of Judah:

Acknowledging that GOD can do anything he wants to, with anyone he one peace.
Luke 1:72
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant

Heb9:...necessity be the death of the testator.
---Trav on 1/4/10

"BTW an 'it' cannot speak..."Warwick 1/3

"If my land cries out against me and all its furrows are wet with tears,." Job 31:38 NIV

"So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance, truth has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter. Is 59:14 NIV

"...Do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth." James 3:14

Land, furrows, justice, righteousness, honesty and truth are inanimate "its" and yet are personified in God's is the HS.
---scott on 1/4/10

Warwick,Jn.5.30."By myself I can do nothing,I judge, only as I hear and my judgement is just,for I seek NOT TO PLEASE MYSELF but Him who SENT me"
This statement makes absolutely no sense "IF" they are the SAME person!
He's talking to ordinary humans who understand "Father and Son" relationship.
Otherwise He's trying to fool them into thinking HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE Father (In heaven) when He's (the father) actually standing right there in front of them!
He never talks to the HS!
---1st_cliff on 1/4/10

Cliff, the Holman Bible Dictionary says blasphemy Biblically speaking is an act directed against the nature of God.

None of the Trinity acts upon His own will-they are of 1 mind. "Let us make man in our image..." Genesis 1:26.

You try to understand the Trinity, a mystery of God, via human thinking. But God is Spirit, something way beyond our comprehension. God's power came upon dead and rotten Lazarus and he was recreated! Explain that!

Jesus does not lie and said He is God. See John 5:17,18-Jesus calls God His Father-'the Jews tried all the harder to kill him' because 'he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.'

All from hostile witnesses-the best possible witness!
---Warwick on 1/3/10

Warwick, You see ,I do pay attention!
H S can be blasphemed therefore he is God??
I've been blasphemed a few times (even on here) And certainly not Divine material!
Radio and TV speak all the time...Radio says cold tonight, God speaks "through" the Holy Spirit so that personality is attributed to "It" as "He"
When Jesus left earth He said "I'm sending you the (Paraclete) comforter (HS) He didn't say "I,m coming back disguised as a comforter" did He?
Jesus was/is not the type to fool people!
HS does not act on His/Its own! always sent!
---1st_cliff on 1/3/10

Cliff, for once you are correct. The correct verse is Matthew 12:31. That will teach me to quote Scriptures from memory! As you will see this Scripture shows the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. Therefore He is God.

BTW an 'it' cannot speak while Acts 13:2 reads "...the Holy Spirit said 'set apart for me Barnabas and Saul...'"

As regards your 'it' Jesus is referred to as 'it' 5 times-Mt 2:8, 11, 13, 14, 20, 21

John the Baptist is referred to as 'it' 8 times-Lk 1:59, 60, 62, 63, 66, 67
---Warwick on 1/3/10

"The trinity is who man says Jesus is..." Exzucuh, 1/3

Which "man" (or men) would that be Exzucuh? How do you explain John 1:1, etc.? Just who is John 1:1-35 talking about?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the word was with God, AND THE WORD WAS GOD..."
---Leon on 1/3/10

Ditto Jerry! Thanks for momentarily putting the conversation (choo-choo train) back on track. We'll see what direction the "Blog Express" takes before the quarrelsome children make it jump track again. :)


Very good explanation Warwick.
---Leon on 1/3/10

Warwick,Mark.12.31 says nothing about the Holy Spirit being blasphemed!(you trying to slick something over?)In fact it says Jesus said "GOd is one" others agreeing with Him,do you think for a second that anyone there,hearing this, believed that Jesus was saying "He" was that ONE God? Not for a second!!! They knew He meant the Father!
In Greek, Spirit is neuter "it" not "he"
wrongfully translated by "trinitarians" look it up!
---1st_cliff on 1/3/10

---Warwick on 1/2/10 There is no problem understanding the trinity. I can see very well It does not line up with the word of God.

The trinity is who man says Jesus is, so why can't you believe what God says about who he is and who Jesus is.

Peter said that Jesus is the Son of God and Jesus told Peter that his Father had told him that. Jesus did not stop Peter and tell him, oh no! Peter God is a trinity and I am God the Son. God spoke from heaven and said this is my Son believe on him. God did not say this is me
I am my own Son.
---exzucuh on 1/3/10

Where is Jesus in the Old Testament?

---jerry6593 on 1/3/10

The problem with understanding the Trinity is that even the brightest human has limited intellect/knowledge, compared to God. As Christians we believe God is Creator, Redeemer and Saviour. But Scripture is clear that Jesus is Creator, Redeemer and Saviour. To antiTrinitarians a contradiction, to be ignored or explained away. To the Trinitarian, no problem.

Further, Biblically speaking blasphemy is an attack upon the nature of God. Jesus says the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed-Mark 12:31. Therefore Jesus knows the Holy Spirt is God, a person. Jesus said blasphemy against Himself would be forgiven, thereby claiming to be God. God The Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.

Difficult to understand? Yes! But wrong to deny.
---Warwick on 1/2/10

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PASTOR_JIM: "Bruce, the Hebrew of "God" (it does not say LORD) in this verse (The Shema) is Elohim. It is plural beyond 2 persons..."

Your worldly knowledge of spiritual matters do not amaze me.

Cliff, Trav and others: Again, your worldly knowledge of spiritual matters do not amaze me.
---Steveng on 1/2/10

Pastor Jim, *Further Persons in this One God*
Holy,Holy Holy is pretty flimsy evidence to support a trinity,huh? especially when 3 is used in scripture for "emphasis"
(like overturn,overturn,overturn it)
Jesus's baptism,
Jesus in the water,
Father talking from heaven,
Holy Spirit descending as a dove.
These are 3 "separate" entities ,how do you get ONE??? I'm missing something??
---1stcliff on 1/2/10

Like I said Cliff, in your present state of mind (confusion) you just don't, won't, can't get it. You've proven this point time after time, over 'n' over, year in and out. I pray for your deliverance that you may know the truth & be set free from sin's mental retardation.
---Leon on 1/2/10

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

---exzucuh on 1/2/10

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It was not necessary to believe in the Son of God before his coming. This was a mystery from the foundation of the world that God had a Son. The Son of God became flesh to give him the authority of Adam. Becoming a man gave him the authority of man, being sinless Satan had no power over him. He overcame his flesh and God gave him not only authority in Heaven but over the Earth. Jesus was not killed by man or Satan he gave his life willingly. He gave up the Ghost no man took it from him. AS God has life in himself the Son also has life in himself. We have no access to the Father without the Son and if we will not confess the Son he will not confess us to his Father.
---exzucuh on 1/2/10

What you false doctrine people must realize is you are not preaching the Son of God Jesus Christ you are preaching the Catholic God the trinity.
An Idol devised by vain Greek philosophers and Romans who argued day and night over the theory of the Godhead. The emperor Constantine made this Doctrine to be Law to stop the division of the church over the different ideas that were being preached. This never really did bring the church together it split it. Eventually people who rejected the teachings of Catholicism became known as Protestants because they protested the beliefs of the Church.
---exzucuh on 1/2/10

//You either believe God is ONE God Almighty, or you don't...

De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

...not three// BruceB...

Bruce, the Hebrew of "God" (it does not say LORD) in this verse (The Shema) is Elohim. It is plural beyond 2 persons.

Further study of scripture (OT/NT), gives us the number of 3 persons in this "ONE GOD". As in Isaiah visit to Heaven he uses Holy, Holy, Holy, To describe what God he saw.

You can visually see them in a single appearance at the baptism of Jesus. The only time the 3 aspects of God are reveal physically at the same time.

---PASTOR_JIM on 1/1/10

Leon,*The true and living God is "CLEARLY" shown (triune) throughout the bible*
Then it shouldn't be too difficult to come up with just "one" that says He is "triune"
OK Leon?? Let's see you do your stuff, show us all who's wrong!
If you can't, then, be man enough to admit it!
---1st_cliff on 1/1/10

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How complicated is that?" Cliff, 1/1

You've formulated another gospel apart from the truth of Scripture. You (and people like you) seek to make a god of your own imagination (Ro. 1:21) rather than the way the true & living God is clearly shown (plural: Elohim/Triune God) throughout the Bible.

By the way, the Bible speaks for & to all christians. However, dull of hearing (unrepentant) people receive nothing from God's word. (Ro. 10:17, Jas. 1:5-8)

How complicated is that? For non-christian people it's unfathomably complicated -- unatainable unless they repent. (Jas. 4:1-12)

YES Jovani as many bloggers here have indicated from Scripture.
---Leon on 1/1/10

BruceB I believe the Father is one God almighty and he is a Spirit just like Jesus his Son said. But you cannot believe in the Father because he will not receive you believing in him. If he did then you could be a Muslim or a Jew. He made a way of salvation by Faith. Not faith in believing in God alone. But believing in his Son as the only way to God. And in order to believe you must believe that Jesus is God's Son, not God himself. That belief says in itself that God does not have a Son. That God is his own Son. Phillip would not Baptize the eunuch until he confessed he believed with all his heart that Jesus is the Son of God.
---exzucuh on 1/1/10

BruceB, We have someone here who speaks for "all" Christians huh?
Because you're muddled up in your pseudo-christian belief doesn't mean "we" all are!
Simple..One Almighty God Deut.6.4.
This God has a "Son"
The both use Holy Spirit to accomplish whatever!
How complicated is that?
---1st_cliff on 1/1/10

Bruce, you are correct, either he believes it now or he doesn't and will argue against it. There is nothing any person can do. That's I rest on the sovereignty of God. When I cannot do something of myself, I know that God can do what He wills in the lives of others. We have to take the Word of God by faith. Of course there are many things we don't understand, but that says nothing about God, but speaks alot about ourselves.
---MarkV. on 1/1/10

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If you don't believe what Jesus, Himself, told the apostles, it sure ain't gonna make a single iota of difference what I tell you.

You either believe God is ONE God Almighty, or you don't...

De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

...not three!

Thomas knew exactly who He was--Emmanuel.

Try reading the first chapter of Revelation, again. If that ain't Jesus (the ONE Almighty God) talkin' to John, then ain't none of us "christians" got us a prayer, my friend. And we oughta just take up yoga... or smokin' dope... or something useful... rather than waste our time worrying about which multipe gods are which.
---BruceB on 1/1/10

Jesus was with God.
---Jennifer on 12/31/09

Numbers 9:15-16. In Ezekiel 1:28>>>"As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking". God is still revealing Himself magnificently before some of His people, even today. There will be no excuse. I'm serious. God wants more than anything, recognition-obedience. Please love Him today.
---catherine on 12/31/09

---Trav on 12/30/09 I do not have any Idea what you are saying!
---exzucuh on 12/30/09

Ask the only Teacher.

GOD who did you marry?
GOD were you really divorced to 10/Nations?
Did you divorce the other 2 or were they widowed?
Did you have a son of the undivorced house of Judah?
How can you remarry, an adulterous 10/nations divorced and not break your own law of Divorce?
Husband has to die, right?

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
Luke 5:35
But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, they shall fast in those days.

---Trav on 12/31/09

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---BruceB on 12/30/09 Give us one scripture that Jesus says that he is God the Father. He must say that he is.

Not express image, that is a picture
Not manifest, that is making known
Not when you see me you see the Father, Because Jesus is the express, or picture image of God.
Not his Name called Father, because the name of Jesus is synonymous with the name of God.

Give us scripture that Jesus says I am God the Father.
---exzucuh on 12/31/09

Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it...
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever,
17 Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him, for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Who was dwelling with the apostles? Even the Spirit of truth.

Jesus IS the Old Testament. Jesus IS the New Testament. Jesus IS God--Father, Son and Holy Spirit--one God.
---BruceB on 12/30/09

Cliff: The only thing here that's ambigious is your double mindedness. You see & hear what you want, & are wise only in your own eyes. You believe in a god made in your image apart from God's more than adequate descriptions & explanations of Himself in Scripture. Your faithlessness will ultimately get you nowhere fast!!! I feel sorry for you & sincerely hope, & pray you'll have a change of heart & repent before your days are done.
---Leon on 12/31/09

Leon: +++Yes cliff plural because there's only one God+++ It doesn't get more ambiguous than that!!! +Let Us+ plural of magnificence, not number! Else you believe in polytheism !
Exzucuh, Sorry I mistook you for a trinitarian!
---1st_cliff on 12/30/09

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---Trav on 12/30/09 I do not have any Idea what you are saying!
---exzucuh on 12/30/09

It is an opinion that Jesus alone is God. Not Fact because The scripture plainly has reference to contradict that. It is a Fact that God alone is in Jesus. It is a fact that Jesus is the Son of God. It is an opinion that Jesus is God the Son. It is a Fact that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For --HE--( the Father) has put all things under --HIS--(Jesus) feet. But when he(GOD) says all things are put under him(JESUS), it is clear that he(GOD) is accepted, who did put all things under him(JESUS). And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the --SON ALSO HIMSELF-- be subject unto --HIM-- (the Father) that put all things under --HIM-- (Jesus), that God may be all in all.
---exzucuh on 12/30/09

People on these blogs wouldn't know the truth, even biblical truth, if it bit them on the nose.
---Steveng on 12/28/09

Easy now, you're acting like ole Trav does at times forgetting didn't always see either.
Sheep are some pretty dumb herd animals. They are not loners,attack sheep, nor do they leave the herd until they hear the only/shepherds voice.
We've all heard of a judas goat....sheep follow/see only the tail in front rarely dealing with the front/face/head.
It takes "The Shepherd" to get someones attention. If they don't get it "The Shepherd", is not dealing/opening to the time....maybe later, maybe never.
Someone that reads instead of blog's...may get it though.
---Trav on 12/30/09

I have come realize the human mind cannot receive the Fact that God can have a Son. ---exzucuh on 12/28/09

You are so earnest in your scripture grazing exzu, that even though I know you may spit on my blog I'll post it.

Lost Sheep-mind is acceptable to things that are witnessed multiple times by scriptural individuals of reputation.

Now it is just as hard for some,to think of GOD as married. Divorced? Then break his own marriage law by remarriage. An atrocity. But, for widow-hood freedom in Christ.
GOD's marriage, Separation/Divorce and promise to remarry does explain Christ. Too those who seek answers to the question to refer too.
---Trav on 12/30/09

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---Steveng on 12/28/09
When a judge offers an "opinion," it is based upon facts and historical decisions made by other judges

It is not an opinion if it is based on facts.
facts prove that something is true. You cannot prove an opinion is true, and if you do it is not opinion it is fact, because you have proven it.

That's what makes the difference between the word of God and the word of man. God sends his word and it accomplishes what he sends it to do. Mans opinion of God's word accomplishes only sin and death.
---exzucuh on 12/30/09

You wanna know where Jesus appeared in the OT? Every time God appeared to Israel.
---JoelV. on 12/30/09

"The word translated God (Elohim) is plural but 'never' translated 'Gods...why???" Cliff, 12/23

Yes Cliff, plural because there is only ONE GOD (the Godhead). There are three distinct persons in the Godhead (Father, Son & Holy Spirit). The Godhead is the "Trinity" of ONE GOD. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet, the Father isn't the Son or Holy Spirit, the Son isn't the Father or Holy Spirit & the Holy Spirit isn't the Father or Son. ELOHIM!!! Reference Genesis 1:26, 11:7, etc., "LET US...." (plural).
---Leon on 12/30/09

Many on christianet give their opinion of who Jesus is based on Scriptures like:
1 Timothy 3:16 God was MANIFEST in the flesh,
But Jesus made light of this by saying:
John 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made MANIFEST in him. And also:
2 Corinthians 4:10 that the life also of Jesus might be made MANIFEST in our body.
MANIFEST MEANS TO MAKE KNOWN so you can see that the misunderstanding of definitions of words can change facts into opinions when the truth is revealed. JESUS GOD'S SON makes God known by his life and we should make Jesus known by our life.
---exzucuh on 12/30/09

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paul was chosen by jesus to deliver the gospel to the gentiles,just as with any other non believer before accepting jesus he was of the world,no matter what he was.In fact he was a jew,a pharisee,a persecutor of christians,bottom line is his past,just as any believers is forgiven,and forgotten by God,but apparently ,and as par,people aren,t as forgiving,even after 2000 years.
---tom2 on 12/30/09

exzucuh: "An opinion is an idea that cannot be backed by a reference other than the person that speaks it."

When a judge offers an "opinion," it is based upon facts and historical decisions made by other judges.

On these blogs people would paraphrase a biblical truth and other people would consider it an opinion. I do a lot of paraphrasing and so did Jesus (since the OT was not in verses at the time).

People on these blogs wouldn't know the truth, even biblical truth, if it bit them on the nose.
---Steveng on 12/28/09

He physically appeared before Abraham in Genesis 14:18.

It was the only real life appearance of Christ. Jesus confirms it was him in the NT when he declared "Before Abraham was, I AM" and we hear more in Hebrews.

There are several Christological appearances.

He also parted the Red Sea freeing the Jews from Bondage as he now does for us.
---pastor_jim on 12/28/09

1 Cliff, you said to confuse the bible student" are you saying you are a bible student? If you don't believe the
Bible why do you study it? It does not make sense unless you read it to make conflict with others. You don't believe Jesus is God, You don't believe the words of Scripture, what are you? Do you get a thrill speaking against the Word of God?
---MarkV. on 12/28/09

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---1st_cliff on 12/28/09 Would you please say whatever you said again a little plainer. I have no idea what you just said. But if you said what I think you said, I have been giving
scripture on christianet for almost three years
over and over that explains the relation of the Father to his Son. I have come realize the human mind cannot receive the Fact that God can have a Son. So it stands to reason why God chose this belief to be salvation it takes faith beyond human reason and the forsaking of religious indoctrination to accept the truth.
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

Almighty God was preparing Himself, Isa 44 v 24 & 53 v's 1 - 5, 1st. Tim 3 v 16.
Jesus Christ The Almighty God.
---Lawrence on 12/28/09

Exzucuh, You say "the only way man has ever seen God is to look upon His Son " Then the next breath, like all the fundamentalists will say, Jesus "IS" God! It's all this fancy dancing around,designed to "confuse" and keep the real bible student off guard!
If Paul said it well then it must be gospel truth straight from God's mouth...
Paul was a Pharisee (no more need be said)
---1st_cliff on 12/28/09

I think it is evil for people to with hold words that are given to be ministry to others.
The Bible says that he sends his word and it does not return void but accomplishes what he sends it to do. We are born again by the word of God. It is spiritual abortion to cut someones words from being revealed to others.
To appoint yourself as judge to what is posted and what is not can be a dangerous. I would rather have freedom of speech and see obscenities than to have the word manipulated and cut off.
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

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If a person will not confess Jesus was before Abraham like he said. It is because they do not believe in the mystery that is revealed to us by the Spirit of Prophecy. As the word says the mystery that was from the foundation of the world. That mystery was that God had a Son and it was kept secret. As the the Angel said to Manoah my name is secret or wonderful, same word in Hebrew. Most people I have found want to believe that Jesus is not Gods Son, but God himself and to do that makes their salvation of none effect. It makes them no different that an Idol worshiper or a person who believes Allah is God the Father or Budah is God the Father. The Son of God is all that distinguishes between believer and non believer.
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

Exzucuh, very good points you gave. It takes for a person to dig in to the word of God and look for the Truth. God is willing to help us if we have a passion to learn, and if we are not bias to one denomination. sometimes the denominations believes don't allow us to look deeper to find the Truth. Also, you are right about words found in Scripture, they have different meanings many times, depending on the context of the message God wants to convey.
---MarkV. on 12/28/09

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Paul said Jesus was the rock, If Paul could believe Jesus was a Rock. I do not see how any one could not believe Jesus could take on the form of a man or Angel. What do you think he did at the mount of Transfiguration. The Word transfiguration is translated from the Greek
word metamorphosis. Jesus said he was the only man that could go into heaven and return at will.John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

You people on christianet always revert to your opinion defense. An opinion is an idea that cannot be backed by a reference other than the person that speaks it. When you have people speaking the same things because they they have references and documents or a source that is known to be truth that is no longer opinion. When you have the word of God as your source and you give it as reference. It is not an opinion. You have to prove that the person is not understanding what the word represents. To do that you have to find scripture that clears it up. If you can't then your understanding is no more valid than the person you are arguing with.
---exzucuh on 12/28/09

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1 Cliff, it is my opinion that it was the One and only Pre-incarnated Christ who appeared. In fact He appeared other times as the Angel of the Lord for He is called Lord. And only One can be called Lord, God. He is the same Lord, yesterday, today and forever. All of it is Scripture. I didn't write it. The writers did by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
I kind of figured you didn't believe that, and that is your opinion also.
---MarkV. on 12/28/09

---1st_cliff on 12/26/09 Your problem is that you have been made to believe the word Angel refers only to a heavenly being. The word Apostle is the same word used in another form It means someone who is sent a messenger. John worshiped the Angel Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: He was not an Angel from Heaven but a earthly man that was in heaven. Manoah and his wife worshiped this angel and he did not forbid them. Angels that are not a manifestation of God tell people not to worship them and they tell them their names.
---exzucuh on 12/27/09

Mark V, What you're stating is simply your "opinion" (you're welcome to it) but it's not scripture!
---1st_cliff on 12/27/09

In the original Hebrew scriptures in the book of Psalms and in Isaiah, Jesus' name appears in Hebrew in the old testament: "Who will give Yeshuah up to Israel out of Zion: when Yhwh turns the captivity of his people, Iaakob will rejoice, Israel will be glad." Psalm 14:7+ 53:6. "Note, God my Yeshuah, I will trust and not fear: for Yh Yhwh, my strength and song, he also is become my salvation. Note, Yhwh has proclaimed to the ends of the earth, Say to the daughter of Zion, Note, your Yeshuah comes: note, his reward with him, and his recompense forward of him." Yeshayah 12:2+ 62:11.
---Eloy on 12/27/09

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Exzucuh, I am in complete agreement that the Angel of the Lord was a pre-incarnated appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself (vv.6:22) as elsewhere (6:11). Also in Exo. 3:2). For no one can see God for He is Spirit, but can be seen as the Angel of the Lord in pre-incarnated appearances.
---MarkV. on 12/27/09

Exzucuh, Jgs. 13.13 "The ANGEL of the Lord answered..." So the wife "thought" she saw God but scripture says it was an "Angel" You believe the woman or the bible??
Do you believe the scripture that says "no man has seen God at any time"???
If you believe that seeing Jesus and calling Him God, then you believe in more than ONE God ,contrary to Deut.6.4
They witnessed an Angel and nothing more!
---1st_cliff on 12/26/09

---1st_cliff on 12/25/09 The word means wonderful in hebrew

yalp pil'iy pil-ee'remarkable:--secret,

And Manoah said they had seen God

Judges 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

The only way man has ever seen God is to look upon his Son who is the express Image of God.
---exzucuh on 12/26/09

Exucuh, How come you're misleading people into believing that the episode in Judges was Christ? He said his name was "beyond understanding"(not wonderful, trying to make it fit Isa.9.6). Vs.21 Manoah realised it was an ANGEL of the Lord!
Psl.2.12 "Kiss the Son" was talking about the anointed king whose subjects were referred to as "Sons" (You're guessing at a secondary meaning) "Kissing" was a sign of submission Actually kissing the Assyrian King's feet!
---1st_cliff on 12/25/09

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Judges 13:11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, are you the man that spoke unto the woman? And he said, I am.
Judges 13:17-18 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is your name, that when your sayings come to pass we may do you honor? And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why ask you thus after my name, seeing it is ...wonderful...?

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called ...Wonderful...,
---exzucuh on 12/24/09

Exodus 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb, and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
---exzucuh on 12/24/09

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us ..WISDOM..,
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth was. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he drew a circle upon the face of the
Then I was by him, like a master workman: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him, For whosoever finds me finds life, and shall obtain favor of the LORD. But he that sins against me wrongs his own soul: all they that hate me love death.Psalms 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way,
---exzucuh on 12/24/09

Joshua 5:13-14 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay, but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom,
---exzucuh on 12/24/09

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I forgot to add that God said, "let us make man in our image."

Who was God talking to when he said Us and Our?

God The Father was talking to The Word who is Christ Jesus John 1:1,14
---Rhonda on 12/23/09

Donna, It has become customary for fundamentalists to say "us and our" was referring to God talking to Jesus..But!
The word translated God (Elohim) is plural but "never" transslated " Gods"..why???
It is plural in "majesty" only not plural in number...So when God says "let Us" He is referring to Himself in Majestic (or Regal) terms! There's only "ONE" God! Deut.6.4.
---1st_cliff on 12/23/09

I forgot to add that God said, "let us make man in our image."

Who was God talking to when he said Us and Our?
---Donna on 12/23/09

Jesus said, Before Abraham was, I am. Do you know what that means? Jesus always existed with God. In the New Testament He came to earth, born of a virgin as the Son of Man, but always existed in God and with God.

Our carnal minds cannot comprehend that and will argue that but when the Holy Spirit reveals this truth to you, it's fascinating and you will realize Jesus always existed.
---Donna on 12/23/09

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Yes, The Lord God Jesus was manifested many times in the Old Testament.
---Eloy on 12/23/09

That gave me goosebumps the first time I read that, Kevin
---JackB on 12/23/09

Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day,

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
---kevin on 12/22/09

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