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Explain Matthew 6:28

Matt 6:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Anyone have any ideas as to what Christ meant?

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David: Do you believe the Bible?

Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
---jerry6593 on 1/16/10


Remember how I said to know the truth you must read at least 5 verses before and after the verse, and sometimes more, in order to know the right meaning? In the context Matthew 16:21-28, Jesus is telling his disciples how that he himself must die and then rise again, and that we must also likewise take up our own cross and follow after him. Therefore he is clearly talking about those that have not died when he comes again. At the Second Coming, the sky will part and roll as a scroll when it is rolled together, and the Lord God Jesus will descend from heaven and the people will look upon him whom they have pierced. And great voices in heaven say, "Are become the kingdoms of the world, of the Lord of us, indeed of the Christ of him."
---Eloy on 1/16/10


Matthew 16:28 is just a literary device to lead into the very next verse, the beginning of the account of the Transfiguration.
---Old.John on 1/15/10


Matt 6:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

The Transfiguration showed how Jesus would come in power, honour, and glory.

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
---Francis on 1/16/10


Matt 6:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Anyone have any ideas as to what Christ meant?

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

John 14:19-20 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more, but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
---exzucuh on 1/15/10




(scott)Question- When Stephen, full of Holy Spirit, saw 'God's glory' while gazing into Heaven, where was Jesus? (Acts 7:55, 56)

Matthew 6:13 Father's glory?
Matthew 25:31 Jesus' glory?
Mark 8:38 Father's glory?
John 17:5 shared glory from the beginning?
Act 7:55 God's right hand?
1 Corinthians 2:8 Jesus, Lord of glory?
Hebrews 1:3 the brighness of His glory?
Question: According to John 1:18 and 1John 4:12, did Stephen see God to know Jesus was at His right hand?..
speaking of John 1:18, the answer must be in His bosom.
Maybe, just maybe, The Lord Jesus Christ IS the mighty right hand of God.
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
---MIchael on 1/15/10


"Where was He before His incarnation and where is He now? The Bible answer: In heaven, sharing the throne with His Father." jerry6593

Agreed- That Jesus, the Son of God, was with the Father long before his incarnation on earth...and that he is in heaven with his Father now.

Question- When Stephen, full of Holy Spirit, saw 'God's glory' while gazing into Heaven, where was Jesus? (Acts 7:55, 56)
---scott on 1/15/10


All you are talking about is the non-divinity of Jesus ... not the Trinity, which also includes the Holy Spirit.

Jesus says enough to show that He is divine, at one with the Father, although of course His human flesh was not incorruptible, which is why he could be tempted, and how He was killed.

I am like Jerry a Trinitarian, but I do not condemn those who do not accept the Trinity.

It is sad that you have so much condemnation for those who disagree with you on any detail of doctrine. It sounds like bigotry to me.
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/15/10


Trinitarians admit the trinity is a 'mystery' and are unable to explain why Satan is tempting God if Jesus is 'God and Creator'. Mt.4:10

Satan 'blinds the minds of unbelievers'- 2Cor.4:4. How else could Satan be blinding millions of people if it is not through the trinity mystery? It's a brilliant ploy of Satan, to convince people that God is somehow 'mystical'.

AlmightyGod wants people to know him and His NAME. Satan however has cleverly perverted people's understanding of God through the Hellenic, Neo-Platonic trinity mystery.

The event at Mt.16:28 of Jesus being transfigured and Jehovah's voice being heard confirm the Father and Son relationship between Jehovah and Jesus.

NO TRINITY, NO MYSTERY.
---David8318 on 1/15/10


Scott, you must have a fire under you. I answered Warwick thinking he meant you and David were Jehovah Witnessess. Then later I said there was nothing wrong with that if you were. Then I said you could not be a Christian since you don't believe in the Trinity. Then you came unglued. And now want to discuss, no, really argue, about subjects that you don't believe in. I in turn said I didn't want to take you on a cruse ride. Now if you are not a Christian, nothing can be accomplish for the glory of God. It will only be for your glory. You can call yourself a Christian but you do not follow the eternal God, you follow an angel. We are followers of Jesus Christ who is eternal.
---MarkV. on 1/15/10




AlanofUK appears to have a bias toward jerry6593 and the trinity. If alanofUK had looked a little bit further, he may have noticed how jerry has ignored answering 'why is Satan tempting Jesus as 'God and Creator' at Matthew 4?'.

Again, Jesus when on earth was not divine. At John 1:1 John speaks of the Word- 'IN THE BEGINNING'. Thus, during Jesus' pre-human existence as the 'Word of God', he was 'divine', 'godlike', or 'a god'.

However, as John went on to say- 'The Word BECAME FLESH'- Jo.1:14. No longer divine, but 'flesh', the 'last Adam' (1Cor.15:45)

Also, 'No man has seen God'- Jo.1:18.

Jesus also said 'the Father is greater than I am'. Jo.14:28

Jehovah said, 'for I am God, and not man', Hosea11:9.
---David8318 on 1/15/10


I was waiting for a trinitarian to say 'it's a mystery' why Satan is tempting Jesus at Matthew 4. Trav has come up trumps on that one- ('our/my "human" understanding comes up deficit on.' Trav 1/14/10)

Trav seems to be just as confused as his trinity doctrine is.

According to Trav, Jesus is 'part God', 'part Spirit of God', 'part human'. Where does it say Jesus was 'God incarnate', or 'part this and that'? If Jesus is 'God incarnate', how is it Jesus is also 'part man'?

John said the Word (Jesus) 'became flesh',Jo.1:14. Jesus was fully man, and not AlmightyGod. There's no mystery in that. That's why Satan tempted Jesus because Jesus was fully 'flesh', and NOT God.
---David8318 on 1/15/10


Mima,
Faith WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
So, why do you keep saying what I said is wrong?
Here is the scripture again just in case you forgot. I believe James says you are wrong, Mima
James 2:14-26

Especially these verses
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
---miche3754 on 1/15/10


Also Mima,
What happens to those who have faith but do not produce works? Will they be saved too?
According to the Bible, they are like the pharisee who honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from him.
You can claim to have faith with your talk all you want, but if it has no works with it, you will be cut off.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

You are the tree that is planted in Christ and the fruit is the works you should be bearing. If you aren't bearing fruit, it says you will be cut off and cast into the fire.
That sound like burned up to me.
---miche3754 on 1/15/10


This statement by miche is wrong.
"You have to have faith that produces works.
Otherwise, you will be burned up." You must have faith to be saved. If that faith produces any works you will be judged according to those works and rewarded accordingly. The works produced by Faith have to do the rewards that will be given out by the Lord Jesus Christ.
---mima on 1/15/10


"I am not eager to defend any topic with you..." MarkV

AOK with me.

This conversation would never have begun if you hadn't first made accusations against me.

Perhaps next time you will not be as hasty to make critical comments about others unless you plan to defend your statements. (See analogy of skirt-clad school girl below).

BTW. See Hebrews 11:1 for a scriptural definition of 'faith.' You have personalized it (by saying that it is knocking on my door). Perhaps you are suggesting that faith (like the HS) is a person. Maybe the trinity has become a quadinity.

"And be ready always for defense to every one who is asking of you...with meekness and fear." 1 Pet 3:15 YLT
---scott on 1/15/10


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Does God really have to see something to know if you have faith or not?
---JIM on 1/15/10

Yes Jim.God says if we have faith and do not show it-Hide our light under a bushel- it is dead faith,Not worth a thing. Just like works without faith is dead and not acceptable to God. God even tested Abraham's faith, through Isaac.
You have to have faith that produces works.
Otherwise, you will be burned up.
I have never taught works only Jim. I have always said that your faith should produce works. Markv likes to paint me like that but he is lying. If you read my posts you will see that. Doesn't your faith in God produce works for Him? I hope it does because that is what I am talking about.
---miche3754 on 1/15/10


Scott, I am not eager to defend any topic with you. As I said before to talk to you would be to talk to someone who I cannot help who knows everything already. But who lacks faith. And that only comes from God not from me. Answer the door, it might be faith trying to get in.
---MarkV. on 1/15/10


Miche,you said:If Abraham had faith and didnt show it, how would God really know he had faith?
Please Miche...take a look at what you just said.Does God really have to see something to know if you have faith or not?
---JIM on 1/15/10


David: Having a discussion with you is like pushing a rope - it gets you nowhere and leaves you frustrated.

(1) You don't believe in the Trinity. OK, we've got that!

(2) You don't believe that the Holy Spirit is God. (that follows logically from (1).

(3) You don't believe that Jesus is God. So you must believe that He is only a man, albeit one who can do miracles. This begs the questions: Where was He before His incarnation and where is He now? The Bible answer: In heaven, sharing the throne with His Father. Who is it that can sit on the throne of God? Only GOD!
---jerry6593 on 1/15/10


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Miche, ......... argues for the works of man.
---MarkV. on 1/14/10

Markv(lier) Ive never taught or believed works only.
Ive provided scripture that says FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD FAITH.
If Abraham had faith and didnt show it, how would God really know he had faith? God did not give Abraham faith.
God spoke to Abraham and he believed God. Believing God IS Faith. we are required by God to produce action based upon our faith in him.
If you think its okay to have faith without works and still sin all you want, Thats fine, Ill let God deal with you. He has a place for people like you that only honor God with your lips. That place is called lake of fire. Happy burning.
---miche3754 on 1/14/10


MarkV,

Fascinating. Imagine if Christ and the apostles only preached to those already considered to be Christians.

Your definition of 'Christian' is fundamentally flawed because there's not a single scriptural reference that requires belief in a three-In-one trinity in order to be considered a 'Christian' or footstep follower of Christ. That prerequisite came in 381 ce. with the credal declaration of uninspired men.

I'm sure you're eager to make a defense for that unscriptural premise, but turns out my door bell is ringing again.
---scott on 1/14/10


I'm also interested in 1st Century Christianity.
---David8318 on 1/12/10


Jesus is God:

MATTHEW 13:13-15" Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: "

Isaiah 6:9-10:

"And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not, and see ye indeed, but perceive not... and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."
---Ruben on 1/14/10


David ... I just dropped in on this discussion tonight and it seems to me that as Jerry previously said "But the subject of the discussion between you and me was that of the divinity of Jesus Christ - not the Trinity"

You seem to deny the divinity of Jesus, although He did say "I and the Father are One" and the Word is God, so the opening verse of John's gospel make Jesus God

I find the Trinity difficult to comprehend fully,and the status of the Holy Spirit is to be inferred rather than precisely stated in the Bible.

But I think it is as foolish for you to say that Trinitarians can't be Christians as for others to say that non-Trinitarians can't be Christians
---alan8566_of_uk on 1/14/10


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If Jesus is 'God and Creator', why is Satan tempting God at Matthew 4?
---David8318 on 1/13/10

I haven't gotten involved in the trinity discussions....there are some things going on that most our/my "human" understanding comes up deficit on. It's noticed also reading the differences of opinion.
Some facts that are unchangable facts give a glimpse.
Conceived by GOD...Christ was part Human and Spirit of GOD. GOD was married to Israel. You say not as we know marriage. Two joined as one...physically and spiritually?
The temptation you mention. The "adversary" temptor was the human side of Christ. Not satanic being we've been taught. He was tempted as we are. Heb 4:15
---Trav on 1/14/10


Scott, if you were a Christian I would take you up on a discussion but since you are not, what good will it do? That you can answer better then me or I better then you? I don't think it is even worth it. You see to put up a discussion one has to read every passage the other posts and the context. To be able to answer correctly. But if I am going to go into a discussion, it has to help one or the other. And since you are not a Christian, how can you help me? Just not possible. For everything you will say is without faith. Can you not see my point?
---MarkV. on 1/14/10


So now because one does not believe the trinity, jerry6593 assumes one doesn't believe Jesus had a miraculous birth or performed miracles!

Performing miracles doesn't mean one is AlmightyGod. Peter and the apostles raised the dead and healed sick. But they were not 'divine' or God.

John said Jesus wasn't merely clothed with flesh, Jesus 'became flesh'- Jo.1:14. Thus, Jesus was not 'divine' when on earth. He was not AlmightyGod. Jesus was 'flesh', the 'last Adam', the equal of the 'first Adam'- 1Cor.15:45.

Satan was tempting the 'last Adam'- Jesus, NOT AlmightyGod- Mt.4.

How does a trinitarian explain the miraculous birth of Jesus? How can a trinitarian be a Christian? They are a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 1/14/10


Oh I see where Jerry6593 is coming from. He can't find scriptures to support his trinity teaching, so he has to elevate it somehow by associating the trinity with Jesus' miraculous birth and the miracles he performed. Very clever.

Someone needs to remind jerry that Jesus' miraculous birth and his miracles are Biblical facts. The Neo-platonic trinity on the other hand IS NOT. I agree, having faith in Jesus and believing what he said and did is important in developing a Christian personality. Jesus was no 'ordinary' man. Jesus was 'Christ, SON of the living God'.

Where in the scriptures does it say 'we must worship Jesus as a triune divinity' to be classed as Christian?

Why if Jesus is God, is Satan tempting God at Matthew 4?
---David8318 on 1/14/10


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Jesus is a god (Is.9:6, Jo.1:1), but not the AlmightyGod YHWH (Jehovah). Jesus said, 'it is YHWH your God you must worship' (Mt.4:10). Jesus didn't direct worship to himself, but to his Father, YHWH, Jehovah.

It's trinitarian Arrogance to say someone is not a Christian if one does not 'worship Jesus', especially when no scriptures are offered to support this claim. Arrogance coupled with ignorance because there are no scriptures commanding humans to 'worship Jesus as God and Creator'.

Trinitarians can only cite Heb.1:6, which speak of angels giving Jesus 'proskuneo' as God's SON.

A Christian isn't defined by following the Neo-Platonic teaching of the trinity. Actually, Christian and trinitarian are a contradiction in terms.
---David8318 on 1/14/10


David: I realize that you don't believe in the Trinity. But the subject of the discussion between you and me was that of the divinity of Jesus Christ - not the Trinity. You apparently do not believe that Jesus is God, but rather just a nice, but ordinary man. You probably also believe that His birth was not miraculous nor His mother a virgin. Do you believe that He healed the sick, raised the dead, stilled the storm, etc.? If you don't believe these things as the rest of us do, then you are not a Christian in the sense that the rest of us are. It's that simple.
---jerry6593 on 1/14/10


MarkV,

Your approach to this discussion (and most likely apologetics in general) reminds me of the game that children play- ringing the doorbell and running away.

You elevate yourself to the position of judge ("your heart is already hardened..." "One thing you are not and that is Orthodox Christian") and yet you are unwilling or unable to use God's word to back up your accusations.

I respect individuals with a different opinion than mine, and I can take a well-directed, apologetic punch. But you really shouldn't throw a punch if you plan to hike-up your skirt and skip away when someone takes issue with you and your accusations.

Wait, my door-bell's ringing again...darn kids.
---scott on 1/13/10


Jerry6593 says he hasn't mentioned the trinity. Really!?

Jerry6593 1/9/10- 'Do you think that being a Trinity denier is committing the unpardonable sin - grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30)?'

Would be a fine thing if jerry remained focused and not bear false witness.

I worship YHWH (Jehovah), the AlmightyGod. Jesus said 'It is YHWH your God you must worship'- Mt.4:10. Is jerry now saying Jesus is teaching worship of false god's? Jesus quotes Deut.6:13 where YHWH is found in the original text. Why didn't Jesus say that we should worship him, Jesus, if Jesus is God?

There is no scripture commanding humans to 'worship Jesus' as God and Creator.

If Jesus is 'God and Creator', why is Satan tempting God at Matthew 4?
---David8318 on 1/13/10


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David: Please try to focus this time. I didn't mention the Trinity. The subject is Jesus and His divinity. You claim that He is not God, by which I infer that you believe He is merely a man - or at least only a created being like the rest of us. If you don't believe that He is God, I would have to assume that you do not worship Him (else, you would be worshipping a false god). If you don't worship Jesus as God, how can you be a Christian?
---jerry6593 on 1/13/10


Thomas wasn't teaching a trinity at John 20:28.

How does jerry6593 arrive at 3 people at John20:28 when the HolySpirit isn't even mentioned?

John in the same breath says these things were written so that we would believe Jesus is 'the Christ, the Son of God'. (20:31)

Jerry asks 'what am I doing here'? Not that I'm under obligation to answer jerry's question, but the account of the transfiguration contains one of 3 occasions when God's voice is heard stating 'this is my SON, the beloved, listen to him.' Again, Father and son relationship.

I'm in agreement with scott. I'm also interested in 1st Century Christianity, and regardless of which 'religion' anyone belongs to- does one's belief stand up to scriptural scrutiny.
---David8318 on 1/12/10


Scott, thank you for answering and not telling me from what denomination you are from. It was not really important as I can see now. No, Scott, I will not take you on a cruise ride. If I did, it would not benefit me and would give you more of a reason to be online. I don't want to feed your hungar. Maybe someone else wants to spend the time but not I, someone like David, he seems very interested in doing the same. Scott, your heart is already hardened to any truth that I would present to you, thats why I cannot help you. Thanks anyways
---MarkV. on 1/12/10


"What are you doing here? This is a Christian website."
jerry6593 on 1/12/10


What scriptural reference would you cite that requires a disciple of Christ to believe in a three-in-one trinity in order to be a 'Christian'?

Try as you may, you'll not find any such statement in God's word. The first mention (that I'm aware of) that ties belief in the trinity to salvation was in the creed or 381 Constantinople. Some 290 years after the death of the last apostle and some 348 years after Christ.
---scott on 1/12/10


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David: "The Bible doesn't teach Jesus is God."

Joh 20:28,29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and MY GOD. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Again, what are you doing here? This is a Christian website.
---jerry6593 on 1/12/10


MarkV,

I am a Christian with an interest in first-century, primitive Christianity and biblical languages, with a wary eye toward extra-biblical teachings that (IMHO) have distorted the clear declarations of God's word.

Though I'm not a Witness, I'm happy to call many my friends. I am in full agreement with them on several topics (particularly regarding the trinity.)

You'll notice that I've not asked you "what you are." Don't care, never will. Use your bible to make a case for the trinity. Prove that your opinion is "Orthodox".

Orthodox= "having the right opinion", from orthos ("right", "true", "straight") + doxa ("opinion" or "praise.)"
---scott on 1/11/10


Jerry6593 is still unable to offer an explanation as to why he believes Satan is trying to tempt Jesus, if Jesus is 'God and Creator'. Mt.4:1-10.

I sense another trinitarian 'mystery' coming up. Alternative trinitarian line of argument is 'Satan is unintelligent and "stupid" '.

Jerry6593 is correct in saying I do not believe Jesus is God. The Bible doesn't teach Jesus is God. Jesus is 'Son of God'. Even Satan, a spirit creature, who has seen both God and Jesus knew that basic truth. I worship God, because Jesus said at Matthew 4:10- 'it is YHWH (Jehovah) your God you must worship'.

Jerry6593 proves that nobody can defend the trinity doctrine scripturally, becasue it's not in the Bible.
---David8318 on 1/11/10


Yes MarkV you're absolutely right, it's not Christians whom we are addressing, it's trinitarians.

I detect a bit of frustration in the trinitarian camp from jerry6593 & MarkV.

Can any trinitarian explain why it is that Satan is trying to tempt Jesus as 'God and Creator'? Matthew 4:1-10.

No doubt, Satan is a very intelligent spirit creature. An evil force to be reckoned with. So I doubt very much that he is tempting Jesus out of stupidity.

There is no possible trinitarian explanation why Satan is 'tempting God', other than the truth being and that is Satan IS NOT tempting God but Jesus, as the scriptures clearly point out.
---David8318 on 1/11/10


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Scott, I was going by what someone else said. Are you saying you are not a Jehovah Witness? Is that true? If you are not ashame of what you are, why don't you tell us? One thing you are not and that is Orthodox Christian. It is not so terrible to be a Jehovah Witness. Or for that matter a Mormon. I don't know much about Mormons but I do know about Jehovah Witnessess a little more.
---MarkV. on 1/11/10


MarkV

Your assumption (at least in my case) is false but more importantly is a red herring.

Biblical truth stands on it's own... or falls if it has been twisted and misapplied. To simply dismiss someone's bible based argument or point of view because you disapprove of his chosen faith amounts to weak apologetics and borders on cowardice. (In my humble opinion).

State your case using God's word in defense of the trinity and see if it sticks. This should be easy from your superior and lofty perspective, high above heretical infidels like David8318 and myself.
---scott on 1/11/10


Warwick, it is nice to know that Scott and David are both Jehovah Witnessess. This way when answering we know it is not Christians whom they are addressing. I believe knowing from where someone comes is very important to those who answer. If it is RCC you can recognize it right away and when it's from SDA you can too because they are moved by the Sabbath and the law. Thanks
---MarkV. on 1/11/10


david: "Truth is Satan is not tempting God, Satan is tempting Jesus."

I guess that says it all. You don't believe that Jesus is God. So you can't be a Christian, otherwise you would be worshipping a mere man. So what are you doing here?
---jerry6593 on 1/11/10


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Jack B that means: everyone will not be dead on the Earth when Jesus comes back. Some people, maybe you and I, will see Jesus, while we are alive. We will see Him coming, on a cloud, coming with His Kingdom. In I Thessalonians ch 4. if we are dead(upon Christ's return), the dead in Christ will rise first and the rest of us shall be caught up in the clouds with Jesus in the air. Read it for yourself. God bless
---Robyn on 1/10/10


Obviously, jerry 6593 is unable to offer an explanation as to why Satan is trying to tempt Jesus as 'God and Creator'- as he believes. The idea of course is trinitarian nonsense. Truth is Satan is not tempting God, Satan is tempting Jesus. Mt.4:10.

How can somebody grieve the HolySpirit by denying 'the trinity' when the HolySpirt never inspired ANY writer of the Bible to make any mention of the word 'trinity'?

Jerry6593 comment (1/9/10) beggars belief.

Can Jerry find in any of the passages of the Bible any mention of 'trinity', or 'worship God as a trinity', or 'God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit'?

Rather, associating the AlmightyGod with Babylon's triad is itself a blasphemy.
---David8318 on 1/10/10


jerry6593, the unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit: this is bad-mouthing or dissing the Holy Spirit, which is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil rather than to God, it is calling the holy, unholy.
---Eloy on 1/10/10


Do you think that being a Trinity denier is committing the unpardonable sin - grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30)?
---jerry6593 on 1/9/10


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Warwick is promoting Neo-Platonism, a pagan Hellenic philosophy (the trinity) giving him a warped understanding of Christ's identity.

If as Warwick says Jesus is 'God and Creator', then he ignores the fact that Satan is trying to tempt Jesus as 'God and Creator'. Matthew 4:1-10.

But everyone knows there's no error or sin with the AlmightyGod YHWH.(Deut.32:4) Even Satan knew that. Satan wasn't tempting God. Satan was tempting Jesus. Satan knew Jesus was NOT the Almighty God but the 'last Adam'-a free moral agent with ability to choose.

Jesus was sent by his Father YHWH(Jehovah) to break up the works of the Devil. That's what Satan was trying to prevent.

The transfiguration event shows a Father and Son relationship.
---David8318 on 1/8/10


Roger Brown has it right. This passage is not about the transfiguration, for that is not the kingdom coming, but he is telling of those that have not died when he comes again. At the Second Coming, the sky will part and roll as a scroll when it is rolled together, and the Lord God Jesus will descend from heaven and the people will look upon him whom they have pierced. And great voices in heaven say, "Are become the kingdoms of the world, of the Lord of us, indeed of the Christ of him."
---Eloy on 1/8/10


"He [Christ] is the image of the unseen God and the first-born [prototokos] of all creation...As he is the beginning [arkhe], he was first to be born from the dead, so that he should be first [proteuo] in every way." Col 1:15,18 JB

Prototokos, used twice in this scripture, literally means "born first" - see Young's Analytical Concordance or Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

"Jesus was the first-born (prototokos) of his mother (Mt. 1:25, Lk. 2:7)...also the first-born of his heavenly Father. He is the first-born of all creation...(Col. 1:15-17). Similarly, he is the first-born in the new creation by being raised first from the dead." - New Bible Dictionary, 1982, p. 378, Tyndale House
---scott on 1/7/10


Not surprisingly, still ignored by Warwick:

"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature as here [Jesus] or to the Creator." ASV 1901 Footnote on John 9:38

Clearly the respected ASV translators, with an actual grasp of the biblical languages, differentiate Christ (a "creature") from the Creator.
---scott on 1/7/10


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scott: ASV footnotes notwithstanding, the Bible clearly defines Jesus' origin as "begotten" - not "created." There's always a danger of arriving at false theology when the doctrines of men are esteemed above the simple truth of the Bible.
---jerry6593 on 1/7/10


Scott your JW indoctrination cause you to miss the obvious.

As Jesus is the Creator and the Saviour and the Redeemer, all titles also given only to God, Jesus is God, therefore due the same honour as God (John 5:23) and worship also. In this context proskuneo means worship.

In Hebrews 1:6 God was commanding that even angels should 'worship' Jesus.

The Son of God means Jesus is equal with the Father. It does not mean God produced a child as do humans but is worded in this way to show us that as our sons are born equal with us so Jesus, though willingly a servant on earth, is equal to God. Therefore due worship by man and angels alike.
---Warwick on 1/6/10


Not surprisingly, ignored by Warwick:

"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature as here [Jesus] or to the Creator." ASV 1901 Footnote on John 9:38

Clearly the respected ASV translators, with an actual grasp of the biblical languages, differentiates Christ (a "creature") from the Creator.
---scott on 1/6/10


At Matthew 4:10, Jesus quotes Deut.6:13 to Satan saying- 'it is YHWH (Jehovah) your God you must worship'. YHWH is found at Deut.6:13.

Thus, trinitarians must believe Jesus is also YHWH. Satan was evidently unaware of this otherwise, Why would Satan try tempting AlmightyGod YHWH? The usual trinitarian explanation- Satan is unintelligent.

But Satan knew exactly who Jesus was- NOT YHWH, but the 'last Adam' and 'Son of God' an individual who could chose to worship Jehovah or Satan. Thankfully, Jesus told Satan 'it is YHWH (Jehovah) you must worship'.

Interesting no command is given to 'worship the HolySpirit'.

Paul wasn't teaching the Hebrews to 'worship Jesus'. They were already worshipers of the Hebrew God Jehovah.
---David8318 on 1/6/10


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Scott the slave was surely aware he was begging a man, not God, for forgiveness, not worshiping him.

All words are defined by context.

Scripture defines Scripture. We do not take one word or verse out of the overall context. Nowhere in Scripture is anyone told worship any man. Just the opposite.

God commanded the the angels to worship Jesus-The Creator and Saviour-therefore God. This is the Jesus who claimed all people should honour Him "just as they honour the Father." Therefore we know Jesus is worthy of 'worship', being God.

No man can claim to be Creator, Redeemer, worthy of equal honour as God, or The Son of God. Your example is not relevant, because of the context.
---Warwick on 1/6/10


Proskuneo

"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated (proskuneo) himself before him..." Matt 18:26. "Worshiped" KJV, AKJV, ASV, ERV, WBT

"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature as here [Jesus] or to the Creator." ASV 1901 Footnote on John 9:38
---scott on 1/6/10


David your Jehovah's Witness interpretation is faulty. In reality Jesus is God the Son, the Creator, as explained. In Scripture both God and Jesus are described as the creator. As Jesus is God the Son this is no contradiction. However in your story you have 2 different creators!

The angels are commanded to worship Him using the same Greek word used in Matthew 4:9,10 where Jesus says "Worship (proskuneo) the Lord your God only." God commanded the angels to worship Jesus!

Worship God, worship Jesus, that is what Scripture says.

Jesus does not answer this 'accusation' at all as He is only stating the obvious that as the second part of the Trinity He is not a free agent but of one mind with God, in total synch.
---Warwick on 1/6/10


Matthew 4:10 is interesting because Satan is wanting Jesus to worship him, thus turning the 'last Adam' away from God, the same way Satan turned the 'first Adam' away from God. 1 Cor.15:45. (Re: Warwick 1/5/10)

A trinitarian is forced to believe therefore that Satan is trying to make God worship him. This is of course completely absurd.

Satan has been in the presence of the AlmightyGod- Job 1:6. God however is 'perfect in his activity' (Deut.32:4). Satan thus knows the difference between YHWH, and His son, Jesus Christ.

The truth is, Satan wasn't tempting the Almighty God. Even he knew that. Satan was tempting Jesus, the 'last Adam', 'Son of the Living God', and an individual in his own right.
---David8318 on 1/6/10


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In Bible times 'proskyneo' often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature. It can mean both 'to worship' and 'to do obeisance' according to context. (Warwick 1/5/10)

A non-trinitarian rendering of Heb.1:6 would read that God commanded the angels to 'do obeisance to him (Jesus)'.

Heb.1:8 highlights that it is AlmightyGod who is the source and foundation of Christ's Kingship. 'Thy Kingdom is founded upon God'.

The Jerusalem Bible at John 5:19 use the word 'accusation'. The Jews wrongly accused Jesus of being equal with God at 5:18. Jesus defends himself against this charge at 5:19.

All things were created by YHWH (Jehovah) "through him (Jesus)"- John 1:3 & Col.1:16.
---David8318 on 1/5/10


David, the Father commands "Let all God's angels worship him"-Hebrews 1:6. However worship is due only to God. You may say 'worship' here actually means 'obeisance' but it doesn't as it is a translation of the Greek 'proskuneo' which is used elsewhere regarding 'worship' of the Father. For example see Matthew 4:9,10 where Satan asks Jesus to worship him. Jesus replies "Worship (proskuneo) the Lord your God only." But God commanded the angels to worship Jesus!

To call Himslef the Son of God is making Himself equal with the Father as His enemies attest in John 5:18.

The OT tells us God is creator (Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 37:16) however the NT reveals Jesus as the creator, therefore God-John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.
---Warwick on 1/5/10


In response to Samuel, I never mentioned the trinity in my post 12/25/09.

Hearing the voice of the Almighty God, YHWH is an important and integral part of the transfiguration account.

Hearing YHWH's (Jehovah's) voice reaffirmed Christ as King in the coming Kingdom and is important in identifying Christ not as the AlmightyGod, but as he truthfully is, the 'SON of the living God' as Peter deduced not long before the event. Mt.16:16.

Peter even wrote about the hearing of YHWH's voice later at 2Pe.1:17. Peter writes that Christ received from God 'honour and glory'. How strange to receive something from the Father if Christ is already 'the Father'.

Peter did not believe Christ to be the AlmighyGod Jehovah.
---David8318 on 1/5/10


Thank you Rodney. Good points.

Nowhere in scripture does GodAlmighty refer to Jesus as 'God the Son', or in any way as His equal.
---David8318

David
From your statment I gather you do not believe in the Trinity and that you are a member of the Witnesses. That is not the topic of this discussion.

YOu are correct in that the appearance could be what is referred to in this prophecy. But that does not mean it could not also point to Penecoast.
---Samuel on 1/4/10


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Samuel is correct there is no reason why this passage cannot have several correct fulfilments ie the tranfiguration and Pentecost Other scriptures have more than one fulfilment For eg Isa 53:12.. "and he was numbered with the transgressors, and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." was fulfilled in Luke 22,37 refering to being with the disciple who were now armed with swords
And in Mark 15,28 refering to being on the cross between 2 theives. Being at the mount of transfiguration is something however that is not available to us now but entering into the Kingdom of God by receiving our own personal pentecostal experience is. (John 3,5 Romans 14,17 John13,20, 15,26 & 16,7)
---Rodney on 1/4/10


They saw him die?
---amand6348 on 12/27/09


The Transfiguration of Christ is a vision of his heavenly glory in Kingdom power, when he rules over the Earth during his Millennial Reign with his 144,000 'joint heirs'. (Ro.8:17, Rev.5:10, 14:1) Thus, Peter, James and John 'did not taste death' until they saw 'the Son of man coming in his Kingdom'.

Peter, James and John were also privileged to hear the voice of Almighty God YHWH (Jehovah), who said- 'This is my son, the beloved whom I have approved, listen to him'. Mt.17:5.

This is one of 3 occasions Jehovah said this about his SON. Peter said earlier regarding Jesus- 'You are Christ, the SON of the living God'. Mt.16:16.

Nowhere in scripture does GodAlmighty refer to Jesus as 'God the Son', or in any way as His equal.
---David8318 on 12/25/09


There are two main ways of understanding. First it refers to the Transfiguration and second to the establishment of the Kingdom in the hearts of men at Penecoast.

I personally do not see a conflict with it being both.
---Samuel on 12/24/09


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Irene, I believe your answer is correct. First of all it is Matthew 16:28. Second, in all 3 synoptic gospels, this promise is made immediately prior to the "Transfiguration" (Mark 9:1-8, Luke 9:27-36). Furthermore the word for "kingdom" in this passage can be translated "royal splendor." Therefore, it seems most natural to interpret this promise as a reference to the "Transfiguration," which "some" of the disciples -Peter, James, and John, would witness only 6 days later.
---MarkV. on 12/24/09


I stand in agreement with Rodney and Cluny on 12/23/09.
---Josef on 12/24/09


\\ It was refering to the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Millenium kingdom on Earth.
---JoelV. on 12/23/09\\

There's no such thing as an earthly millennial kingdom.

This is nothing more than a kingdom of this world, and the Lord said, "MY Kingdom is NOT of this world."
---Cluny on 12/24/09


In Responce To Matt. 6:28, verily i Say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man comming in his kingdom.

This Means That There Will be people in Mankind, Still Living At The Second Comming of Christ, (physically living)


Many In Humanity Will Actually See Christ Comming, And Appear in His Glory.


Roder8547
---Roger_Brown on 12/24/09


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Gabby is right. It is Matt 16:28.
We can't just look at verse 28 but we have to look at verse 27, also.

Matt 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.

So whatever it means when it happens there would be angels present and also the handing out of rewards.

Just like in Rev 22:12
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
---Jack on 12/24/09


Hi Jack and everyone I hope you all have a happy and safe Christmas The key to understanding this is in Romans14,17 The kingdom of God is peace and joy and righteousness in the Holy Ghost. This happened to the disciples and others at Pentecost it could not have happened before that because in John 16,7 Jesus "if i go not away the comforter (the Holy Ghost) will not come" and when we receive the Holy Ghost we receive Jesus John13,20"He that receives whomsoever I (Jesus) send (see John15,26) receive me. At Pentecost they received the Holy Ghost which others could see and hear (Acts2,33) and thus received Jesus and became part of the kingdom of God
---Rodney on 12/23/09


It was refering to the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Millenium kingdom on Earth.
---JoelV. on 12/23/09


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