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True Righteous People

Are there true righteous people without the righteousness of Christ that are going to heaven?

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 ---MarkV. on 12/30/09
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Jim, you are correct on your answer. You have to understand that Exzucuh is not a believer of the Trinity, and many other believes not found in Orthodox Christianity. On this blog passages are put down out of context by so many here with the exception of Lee. I've tried to read each one and only a few are correct. It is impossible to keep a conversation or discussion going that way. Confusing the meaning God had for each one of the passages. I don't even know why Kathr answered to correct you. You didn't say anything wrong. And Paul, he is also like an SDA, if you discuss things, you will never finish with him. Miche, she gets her feelings hurt right away if you mention that God has the right to choose so argues for the works of man.
---MarkV. on 1/14/10


Miche...True Faith will always produce good deeds. I never said it wouldn't. It doesn't matter if you do good works, bad works or a combo of both. In the end they will be tested and anything good that remains you will be rewarded for. Even if you don't have anything good remaining you will still be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
But True Faith will always produce good deeds.
---JIM on 1/11/10

Yes it matters, Jim. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 has nothing at to do with judgement day. Its talking about the works we do right now for God. Its tested in the fire to see if its false works or righteous works for God. These verses prove you have to do his righteousness. The whole chapter is about the foundations for living for God.
---miche3754 on 1/14/10


---kathr4453 on 1/13/10 Boy that is the best scripture yet to prove faith has works!

Luke 5:18-20 And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him. And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with his couch into the midst before Jesus.
And when he saw their faith,
he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

He saw their faith by their works and forgave their sins!
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


Luke 5:20
When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven."


Guess what Paul, Jesus did forgive before he went to the Cross.

You seem to be upset that God can forgive sin.

God even FORGAVE David his sin! Oh, how so many hate the God of David!!!!

Romans 4...David said, BLESSED are those who's sin are forgiven.....nothing here about Keeping the Law...
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


You see how a >>> righteous <<< man understood one can apply mercy and not the punishment of breaking the Law?

Has the apostasy taught you there was no mercy in the Law?
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


Paul, it was because Mary was carrying the Messiah that she was not put to death. Joseph was told by an angel. Mary was a virgin and NOT GUILTY of adultry to begin with!!

GRACE and MERCY go together.

Now let me ask you, if God can apply Mercy through the LAW, then why did Jesus die on a Cross. If SIN didn't need to be PUNISHED, then there was no need for Christ to take our punishment.

Let's understand only through Jesus Christ ALONE is any MERCY shown.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10




Miche...True Faith will always produce good deeds. I never said it wouldn't. It doesn't matter if you do good works, bad works or a combo of both. In the end they will be tested and anything good that remains you will be rewarded for. Even if you don't have anything good remaining you will still be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
But True Faith will always produce good deeds.
---JIM on 1/11/10


Jim, 2nd Peter 1 state by FAITH we become partakers of God's Divine nature. I don't see being partaker of His divine nature as a GOOD DEED!

1 Peter 4 Peter talks greatly about SIN and HOW God works in OUR life. Nothing there about GOOD DEEDS either...it's about SIN!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


Paul9594 //Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but who doeth the
>>> WILL <<< of my :Father who is in the heavens.

And what is the WILL of the Father save to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ whom He has sent and to love your neighbor as yourself? 1 John 3:23

Or you must mean that beside being totally conformed to moral law we must also observe the old Jewish Sabbath - a ceremonial type law, that was never commanded by any Scripture found in the New Testament, nor taught by the early church?
---Lee1538 on 1/13/10


Kathr4453:
About Mary:

Matthew 1:19 is the verse that describes the incident where u assume, Joseph stoned her discreetly, because you dont understand the Law includes mercy as in my other examples in NT,

The Greek word incorrectly translated as put her away is "apolusai" Strong's 630. means to set free, release!!
1:19 And Joseph her husband, being >>> a righteous man, <<< and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to release her privily. ( He thought of her not a virgin, until spoken to by Father)

You see how a >>> righteous <<< man understood one can apply mercy and not the punishment of breaking the Law?

Has the apostasy taught you there was no mercy in the Law?
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


Paul9594 ///From the beginning the 10 commandments were in effect before Moses/Mt. Sinai, you don't know this because u don't study the Torah

Wrong again!

While sin was in the world at the very beginning (Rom. 5:13), the law was not given until centuries later - in fact, over 430 years after the time of Abraham. Gal. 3:17

Mans knowledge of right & wrong occurred when Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit.

But the serpent said to the woman, You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Sorry Paul but the fruit Adam & Eve ate was not the ten commandments as you want to believe.
---lee1538 on 1/13/10


Kathr4453:

What is Truth?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

The Word is Truth and became flesh: Christ!

Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, And thy
>> Law << is truth.

Mal 2:6 The >> law << of truth was in his mouth, and unrighteousness was not found in his lips...

Rom 2:20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having
>> in the law <> truth, <<

Why throw Truth: Christ in the trash?

Should We believe John, David, Malachi a true prophet or the apostates?
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10




Paul didn't do away with the Law:

But MANY Translators, interpreters, apostates have done away with the Law:

So 4 many and I MEAN many,WILL BE AS Christ SAYS:

20 Surely then by their >>> :FRUITS <<< ye shall know THEM. 21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but who doeth the
>>> WILL <<< of my :Father who is in the heavens.
22 >>> MANY <<< will say to me in that :day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in thy :name, and in thy :name cast out demons, and in thy :name do many mighty works?

23 then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work :LAWLESSNESS.


WHAT IS THE FRUIT YOU SHOULD HAVE PRODUCED BY JUDGEMENT DAY?
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


The midwives did not Murder the Hebrew men children! Later God rewarded them by establishing them in households! Nice Try!! :)
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10
Paul, my understanding YES they did. However we see MOSES was saved from that ordeal.

Can you offer any scripture that ALL the men children were spared? Who else was established in other households?

God did not KILL Cain, or stone him was my point.
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


Paul9594 - Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

The verse states that the first covenant was not faultless, neither does it state that the fault lied with the people as you wish to maintain.

Does your lack of response to Acts 15:10 indicate that you agree that the Apostles agreed that they would not have a 'yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither [the]fathers nor [they had] been able to bear? that [one] will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they [the Gentiles] will?
---lee1538 on 1/13/10


Kathr4453:
The Father punished Cain for MURDERING Genesis 4:10-13.

From the beginning the 10 commandments were in effect before Moses/Mt. Sinai, you dont know this because u dont study the Torah!

Example of knowing 6 commandment before Moses:

Exodus 1:16 and (king of Egypt)he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the birth-stool, if it be a son, then ye shall kill him, but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.

17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.

The midwives did not Murder the Hebrew men children! Later God rewarded them by establishing them in households! Nice Try!! :)
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


Kathr4453:
U said:
the woman taken in adultery was brought up, Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, or shed his blood! The answer to the woman taken in adultery was JESUS alone had the power to FORGIVE! THIS is what infuriated the Pharisees!///

Kathr, Father/Christ cannot just overlook sin and forgive it just like that, if that were the case as you believe there is no need for Christs death on the cross and just forgive us all!!!

Father/Son can forgive sins because the works of His cross were finished from the foundation of the World!!

Hebrews 4:1
3 As I sware in my :wrath,
If they shall enter into my :rest:
Although the >> works << were FINISHED FROM the worlds foundation.
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


Lee1538:

About Hebrews 8:7
...For finding fault with >> THEM <<<....

A faithful translation to numeric value of Greek words:

7 For if that :first had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.
8 For >>> BLAMING THEM <<< he saith,

The fault was with "THEM" NOT the COVENANT ITSELF, which includes the Law!!!

Paul didn't speak bad about the Law itself, in His original writings. It's only bad tranlations and interpreters, and the apostasy of our day that talk bad about the Law.

just as most of Israel got destroy and only some were pulled out of the bad dominating doctrine of their day,for addding, subtracting from His word to do their traditions, same happens today!
---Paul9594 on 1/13/10


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---JIM on 1/13/10 The God of this universe was never born, he did not begat himself, he gave his only begotten Son to die for the world. And God did not die on the cross because God cannot die. His Son Jesus Christ died on the Cross all alone, God was not around, that is why he cried Father, Father, why have you forsaken me.
---exzucuh on 1/13/10


MarkV...I agree.
To think that the God of this universe who was born of a virgin and became flesh. Who made all things and through Him everything holds together came to die on a cross, to reconcile us back to the Father would need us to add anything to what He accomplished.
Some just don't understand what"IT IS FINISHED" means.
---JIM on 1/13/10


Paul, I read both of your comments here.

In the OT, there was a mercy seat, however those who disobeyed the law were still STONED for such things. Even Mary was going to be privately stoned....until an Angel appeared to Joseph!

Jesus came full of GRACE and Truth.

When the woman taken in adultery was brought up, Jesus had not yet gone to the cross, or shed his blood! The answer to the woman taken in adultery was JESUS alone had the power to FORGIVE! THIS is what infuriated the pharisees! Who gave Him the right..was their problem.

The answer to Cain was...it wasn't until Noah that the commandment..thou shall not kill was in effect! The 10 commandments were not in effect until Moses!
---kathr4453 on 1/13/10


---MarkV. on 1/12/10 Paul was upset with Peter and the church at Jerusalem over imposing circumcision and other Judaism on the gentiles. Paul was the one that taught James about the Law of liberty to obey the gospel by faith. Paul called the Law of the Spirit. Obeying the Gospel is not the Law. Judaism is the law. You have twisted Paul words and used his word he spoke against Judaism to destroy the doctrine of Christ. I have given you countless scriptures out of the mouth of Jesus and out of the Old testament that proves that faith is not faith in word alone. Jesus says you have to prove you have faith by obeying him.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


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Miche, I understand what you are saying.

I think many become confused by the verse, Not by WORKS of righteousness that we have done...But by GRACE ye have been saved. Here Paul is talking about SALVATION. Yet so many fail to see sanctification is a life long process, and YES our works of FAITH (obeying God's Voice) is what James is talking about.

The Confusion again is that in Galatians THOSE judiazers were putting people back under the LAW, AFTER they were saved.

Two kind of WORKS:
WOOD hay and stubble will burn...self effort

GOLD silver Precious stone....those are the works that Christ does through us!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10

YES!!!! AMEN, Kath this is exactly what I am talking about.
---miche3754 on 1/13/10


Paul9594 //This is why even though we cant keep the Law perfectly ...

That is why the Lord instituted the New Covenant, the old one was simply defective.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

So if you honk the Torah, you are doing a covenant that is defective.

And that is one good reason why the old Torah was not imposed on Gentile believers.

Acts 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
---Lee1538 on 1/12/10


Jesus did not tell anyone they could not stone the woman. She was guilty of her crime and they could have stoned her if they had not all committed adultery with her. He told them let the ones that had no sin stone her and there were no righteous ones among them. Jesus convicted them and they saw their sin.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


Jim, I tried that for a long time and nothing works with her and others because they want works to be one of the bases of salvation. I don't think they have read how Paul was upset at James for making the gospel difficult when it was all of Grace. It was easly introduced by Paul. Something very simple," we are saved by Grace through faith."
The Catholic Church added works because of all the traditions they started. The gospel was never conditioned by the works of the Law, and is well explained that the Law cannot save. So doing works saves no one. And a person is lost, works add more sin to the list they already have. I think you explained it very clear.
---MarkV. on 1/12/10


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Kathr4453: Part 1

U asked:
///Why too, didn't Jesus allow the Pharisees to stone the woman taken in adultery? Did Jesus then in fact not keep the TORAH?///

Let's have Christ take the stage to share Truth, so we don't keep wiping our noses with His words and throwing them in the trash, and keep the precepts of men.

How did Christ keep Torah by not stoning adulterous woman?

Because per our savior's lips, Law INCLUDES MERCY:

Matt 23:23 the WEIGHTIER matters OF THE LAW, justice, and
>>> MERCY <<< and faith: but these you ought to have done

But exactly why was Christ able to apply mercy to the adulterous woman, instead of stoning her, and still keep Torah? In Part 2
---paul9594 on 1/12/10


Kathr4453: Part 2:
But exactly why was Christ able to apply mercy, instead of stoning her, and still keep Torah?

Because of the ENTIRE sacrificial system: Christ >> IN THE LAW << illustrates in a real life manner, the power, forgiveness of His blood, He applied for the adulterous woman, her sin was paid by His blood!! This is why even though we cant keep the Law perfectly we can have forgiveness!

We apply teachings of the school master, Law: teaching, WE CAN have MERCY and the Law balanced, with FAITH in Christ!

WIDE SET MERCY within the Law, we miss, because we are falsely taught Law is just rituals and not teachings to show how mercy is balanced within Law!!
Other questions tomorrow
---Paul9594 on 1/12/10


Miche, I understand what you are saying.

I think many become confused by the verse, Not by WORKS of righteousness that we have done...But by GRACE ye have been saved. Here Paul is talking about SALVATION. Yet so many fail to see sanctification is a life long process, and YES our works of FAITH (obeying God's Voice) is what James is talking about.

The Confusion again is that in Galatians THOSE judiazers were putting people back under the LAW, AFTER they were saved.

Two kind of WORKS:
WOOD hay and stubble will burn...self effort

GOLD silver Precious stone....those are the works that Christ does through us!!!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


Kathr4453: Part 1

U asked:
//Why too, didn't Jesus allow the Pharisees to stone the woman taken in adultery? Did Jesus then in fact not keep the TORAH?//

Let's have Christ take the stage to share Truth, so we don't keep wiping our noses with His words and throwing them in the trash, and keep the precepts of men.

How did Christ keep Torah by not stoning adulterous woman?

Because per our savior's lips, Law INCLUDES MERCY:

Matt 23:23 the WEIGHTIER matters OF THE LAW, justice, and >>> MERCY <<< and faith: but these you ought to have done

Part 2:
But why are able to apply mercy while keeping His Instructions?
More specific illustration FOR WIDE SET MERCY IN the Law.
---Paul9594 on 1/12/10


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Miche...once again you just can't seem to see where i'm coming from.
Hopefully we can agree that it is all about Jesus.
You are my sister in Christ and our goal is to finish the race.
---JIM on 1/12/10


kathr4453 on 1/12/10 So James is a liar is that what you are saying? That you totally dis agree with the book of James. That your idea of faith that James says is not faith is what we are to believe and not believe James.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17-19 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
---exzucuh on 1/12/10


We are SANCTIFIED by faith as well. We're not sanctified by works in any sense!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10

And that is exactly what I said Kath.
I believe in Faith AND works.
Not one or the other.
The scripture I used to answer Jim , that Lee was disputing is James 2:17-19 (King James Version)
I have never said by faith alone or by works alone.
I have always believed in having BOTH.

I hope this helps clarify my standing that we must be doers of our faith and not just have faith.
---miche3754 on 1/12/10


Miche...you just don't seem to understand that Faith is not joined with works.
Works is a RESULT of FAITH. There is a big difference between that and you saying Faith is joined with works.
As soon as you can realize that the sooner you can stop trying to do it yourself.
---JIM on 1/12/10

Yes Jim, Faith is joined to works and can't be separated because having one results in the other.
You just aren't understanding that I believe Works IS the result of Faith.
You were telling people to just have faith. That's not all you have to have. You have to produce fruits from your faith or it is dead faith. The Bible says this.
---miche3754 on 1/12/10


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Gal.3:2-3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10
This is what you said, lee and it was directed at me. Not in brotherly love sense but an arrogant fleshly sense.Miche***


Miche, all I see here is Lee quoting scripture. This is exactly what Paul asked the Galatians who were put back under a WORKS?LAW sanctification.

We are SANCTIFIED by faith as well. We're not sanctified by works in any sense!
---kathr4453 on 1/12/10


Miche...you just don't seem to understand that Faith is not joined with works.
Works is a RESULT of FAITH. There is a big difference between that and you saying Faith is joined with works.
As soon as you can realize that the sooner you can stop trying to do it yourself.
---JIM on 1/12/10


Well, Lee, maybe you misunderstood me.

It wasn't that I was offended. I was trying to figure out why you jumped on me when all I did was answer the question Jim asked me.
He seems to think that faith is not joined with works, when the Bible tells us certainly to do both and he kept asking me questions to make it look like I was teaching works for salvation when that is most certainly not true. I believe I answered him properly.
Anyway, we will move on from this.
The answer to the blog question is that without Christ, our own righteousness is as filthy rags, so, no they won't be going to heaven unless they don't know the gospel.
---miche3754 on 1/12/10


miche3754 - I really do not want to scrap with you so why don't we just forgive each other and be done with it? I am certain nothing will be of any benefit to each other is we do not.
---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


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miche3754 - Gal.3:2-3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

I see in this verse no personal accusation on what you believe or posted.

Perhaps a better verse at this time would be Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Perhaps you are too sensitive and easily offended? Generally that is the case with those who are still maturing.


---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


Gal.3:2-3 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10
This is what you said, lee and it was directed at me. Not in brotherly love sense but an arrogant fleshly sense.
All I did was tell you no I am not and you should know because I have been on here long enough for you to know and you turn and call me a nag.
I wont stoop so low as to call you names, I have too much respect for you. I would have never thought you would stoop so low to do it yourself. Maybe I need a little more discernment when it comes to respect and
Perhaps you should take a long look in the mirror.
---miche3754 on 1/11/10


Luke 12:42-46 Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household,

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart,

My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken,

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware,
and will cut him in sunder,

and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Jim this contradicts what you are saying!
---exzucuh on 1/11/10


Miche...True Faith will always produce good deeds. I never said it wouldn't. It doesn't matter if you do good works, bad works or a combo of both. In the end they will be tested and anything good that remains you will be rewarded for. Even if you don't have anything good remaining you will still be saved.
1 Corinthians 3:12-15
But True Faith will always produce good deeds.
---JIM on 1/11/10


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Honestly Jim,
I believe in following what Jesus said for US to do.
Some people, God does have last minute mercy on them, my dad got that kind of mercy. But the majority of us are told to do a few things by Christ. You can't live like hell and still claim to be saved, Jim. Jesus tells us to follow HIS example.
Why you refuse to acknowledge what Christ tells us to do, is beyond me. You take a few scripture and use them to build a shaky doctrine and throw the rest out like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
---miche3754 on 1/11/10


miche3754 - Where did I accuse you of being prideful? Apparently you read in my posts things that are not there.

We both agree that one must abide in Christ in order to be fruitful (John 15) and that a faith that is alive is one which produces good works. James 2:20, 26

Perhaps you are simply one of those nags that loves to be contentious.
---Lee1538 on 1/11/10


---JIM on 1/11/10 When someone nails you to a cross then you can ask that question, until then you better obey the Gospel because you will not have an excuse like the thief on the cross. You people believe in that thief like he is the Son of God. You quote scripture that does not exist about him and omit every word Jesus spoke on how you should live as a Christian. That thief will be your Judge he will stand before God against all who had more opportunity to live for God and used him as an excuse to justify their sin.
---exzucuh on 1/11/10


Miche...let me also ask you this.
What good deeds did the thief on the cross do to merit salvation other then put his Faith in Christ?
---JIM on 1/11/10


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Lee, I understand but you accused me of self pride when that is not true not to mention I was answering Jim.
The scripture I gave says in few words exactly what you just stated. So, why say what you said? Did you read more into it than there was?
Faith alone is not going to get you to heaven.
You must have Faith that produces good works.
Jesus not only told us to believe in him, he told us to follow him too.
"pick up your cross and follow me". I guess people just forget that we are supposed to do this out of love for God because he loved us enough to send his son to die for us. He tells us to believe him, repent of our sins, and pick up our cross, and follow HIM. Seek after him. None are righteous without Christ.
---miche3754 on 1/11/10


NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! According to the Word of God. God does not lie. YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO IFS, AND,BUTS ABOUT IT!!!!!!!! There are no righteous people around,without the righteousness of Christ.
---Robyn on 1/10/10


This is an age old question.

There are many who ask how the Old Testament saints went to heaven since they died before Christ was even born, and there are many who have answered that Christ's work was retroactive.

The only real question I have is did the Old Testament saints go to heaven as soon as they died, or after Christ was crucified.

But, it really makes no difference to me since I was born after Christ died. That is the only thing we need to worry about going forward.
---obewan on 1/10/10


There is no righteous people without Christ. All they have is self-righteousness.
Thus the essence of all sin is the failure to love God. At it core all sin is an act of pride. Pride says, move over God I am in charge. When all man come into the world we love sin, and so we love our rebellion and we love our pride. The basic inclination and orientation of man toward self-gratification-however religious or moral we many appear on the outside, it is directly hostile to God. Even the good deeds of an unbeliever fail to fulfill God's law. Because they are produced by the flesh, for self reasons and from a heart that is in rebellion to God. It is never done for the glory of God.
---MarkV. on 1/10/10


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miche3754 -The question that you posed was in reply to whether or not faith in Christ was sufficient or whether we needed to add to that.

My reply was to the effect that Christ alone was sufficient however, a faith that is alive will be evidenced by good works.

Otherwise if we add to faith we would have the same problem as the Galatians who tried to add works to their salvation & walk. 'Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?' Gal. 3:3

The flesh here is viewed as human efforts involved in obedience to Torah law.

I see nothing in my comments that were critical of what you may believe. So apparently the 'malfunction' is with your misunderstanding.
---Lee1538 on 1/10/10


Lee, thanks for the info. I will order one. I have five Bibles and the commentaries on some are very far out. One Bible I have has a great concordance to look things up, but it is a NIV and I don't like to read it just use the concordance. I also have the New World Translation, and the Book of Mormon, All the volumns of the SDA's by E. G. White that I bought at a flee market some time ago and I do look up things you mention and you are right on. I have not made a complete study of all the books since they are many but I have no time to read them point for point since time does not allow it.
---MarkV. on 1/9/10


Lee, what is your malfunction?
And why did you say what you said on the "Sin can stop salvation" blog?

You accuse me of trying to do my own righteousness when you know that is false. In essence you bear false witness against me just to try and make me look like a fool. I gave scripture to back up what I said as truth, answering Jim, and you accuse me of glorifying my flesh, What is up with that? Did I say something that stuck in your flesh like a thorn?
No, I am not being perfected in my flesh. It is dead. I do GOD's will. Do you think you aren't supposed to do the WHOLE WORD OF GOD?
That you are not supposed to follow after Christ (THE WORD) instead of your flesh?
---miche3754 on 1/9/10


MarkV - //I use the New King James and it has the passage as you described it.

I have done some research into that passage and that is why I use the English Standard version.

Too much of the NKJV seems to echo too much the old King James.

I used to read a different version of the Bible every year and have read 15 different versions.

However, the ESV I have read twice already and am now reading the ESV Study Bible with its hundreds of useful footnotes. I got it brand new on Amazon but as a used book.
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10


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without jesus ,no one is righteous.
---tom2 on 1/8/10


MarkV -//How about what you ask us? I didn't get an answer. Was it Obedience?

I would guess so since in this life we are faced with the problem of grieving the Holy Spirit and even quenching the Spirit if we disobey.

Where we often differ is in obedience to what?

The law as we read it in the Bible, or with Christ as Christians are to walk by faith in His Spirit.

I believe that latter as those who walk in His Spirit are not under the (torah)law, (Gal. 5:18) except only under the law of Christ. (Gal. 6:2, 1 Cor. 9:21).

Of course, our friend Paul9594 would certainly disagree, but he clearly has problems with legalism.
---Lee1538 on 1/8/10


Lee, I use the New King James and it has the passage as you described it. I had not noticed that part. Thanks for making it clear. That little part of Scripture could possibly change or contradict another meaning. Though it hasn't happen to me. How about what you ask us? I didn't get an answer. Was it Obedience?
Keep helping Lee as Shawn T has done so well. Don't let the boasters of the law get to you, for when you give a Truth, while answering it helps many who only read to learn and don't get involve. Blessings and peace
---MarkV. on 1/7/10


Paul: Vs 13 COMPLETES vs 12.

Rev 14:12-13

The faith OF Jesus is the LIFE and power of Christ in us. Col 3:1-4 YE ARE DEAD and your life is hidden with God IN CHRIST, and when Christ Who IS OUR LIFE appears, we will appear with Him in Glory. WE are positionally DEAD to the Old and at REST in Christ(The New)!

Rev is about the OLD vs the NEW. WE are the NEW!!

Rev14:12-13

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13----- Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours,not KEEP a sabbath restand their works do follow them.
---kathr4453 on 1/7/10


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Paul9594 -//Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the COMMANDMENTS of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Any serious student of the Bible would immediate ask what 'commandments' is John the Revelator speaking of as there are over 600 commands or commandments in the Bible.

It is only an ASSUMPTION on your part that John is speaking of the Ten Commandments.

Scripture confirms the fact that the saints are justified by faith in Christ, not in obedience to Torah laws and the commandments they keep are to believe in Jesus whom God the Father has sent, and to love ones neighbor. 1 John 3:23.

Again the truth of His word is not on your side.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


MarkV, kathr4453:

Do what Revelation says!

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANTof her SEED, which KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the COMMANDMENTS of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Why?

Rev 1:3:

BLESSED is he that READETH, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and KEEP the things that are written THERE IN ( not those words written in commentaries :) for the time is at hand
---Paul9594 on 1/6/10


mima - the quote you gave on Galatians 2:16 was from the King James Version.

It is verses such as that one that makes me feel that the most of the more modern versions are more accurate.

Galatians 2:15-16 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith IN Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The ancient 1599 Geneva Bible agrees with the KJV on this verse.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


We're saved by faith In Christ and what HE did at the cross.

And we LIVE( after salvation) by the faith of Christ ,meaning, we live by HIS Power in us!!!.

Gal 2:20 states as our LIFE now as Christians. I am crucified with Christ, no longer I but Christ in me, and the life that I NOW LIVE in the flesh I live by the faith of the only begotten Son who loved me and gave Himself for me.


Phil 3:9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death..
---kathr4453 on 1/6/10


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Are we saved by faith in Christ or we saved by the faith of christ?

Consider these versus

Galatians 2:16 " Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,"

Romans 3:22,"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference "

Just a comment.
---mima on 1/6/10


Kathr4453, MarkV - since we both agree that we are justified by our faith in Christ(Romans 5:1) and by His blood (5:9) and that His rigtheousness is thereby imputed to us (1 Cor. 1:30), what then becomes our responsibility?

Be careful in your answer.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10

ANS:
1. Stay away from false teachers
2. OBEY Romans 6-8
3. James 1...count it all joy when you fall into trials...faithful during testing.
4. **Phil 3/ Colossians 3:...LOOK up, not down and around. Press on.

God does not IMPUTE Sanctification!

God does not IMPUTE Election!!!

Could go on, but can't list all in 125 words!
---kathr4453 on 1/6/10


Hello brother Lee, my answer is "Obedience"
Obedience is never an option. We might not obey everything every minute of the day or every second, but that should be our conduct. Not perfect obedience for no one is perfect except for Eloy. I didn't have to say that but it just came out somehow.
---MarkV. on 1/6/10


Kathr4453, MarkV - since we both agree that we are justified by our faith in Christ(Romans 5:1) and by His blood (5:9) and that His rigtheousness is thereby imputed to us (1 Cor. 1:30), what then becomes our responsibility?

Be careful in your answer.
---Lee1538 on 1/6/10


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I'll make myself perfectly clear: No one is righteous, without the Blood of Jesus. And no one will enter into heaven without the Blood of Jesus. It is the Blood of Jesus that makes one right with God. To go to heaven you must have a right standing with God, and that takes the Blood of Jesus Christ. There is NO OTHER WAY! to heaven.
---catherine on 1/5/10


MarkV, the passage I gave in Hebrews is about FAITH vs LAW. The beginning of Chapter 11 gives the definition of FAITH, then goes on to gives examples of those who by faith placed their trust in God's PROMISES. First Abel, placed his faith in God, by obeying God's command. What was that command? Unlike Cain, one cannot SAVE themselves by any works of the flesh or trying to earn your way to heaven. Abel placed his FAITH in the PROMISE of a redeemer they were told (Gen 3:15).Abel OBEYED and God counted it to him as righteous...It would be IMPUTED righteousness, Not imputed sanctification!!.

The whole book of Hebrews needs to be read from start to finish to put Heb 11 into proper perspective. Faith vs LAW. Only Faith SAVES!
---kathr4453 on 1/5/10


Kathr, you gave a very wonderful passage in Hebrews
11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/09"

It gives a lot of information to the believer.
1. It's impossible to please God without faith.
2. The only way you can come to God must first believe who He is,
3. That He is the rewarder to those who seek Him.
No one can come to God without faith. And faith is a gift of God. Only those with faith believe in Him and He rewards those who seek Him. The lost do not seek after God, (Rom. 9:10,11). Only those who are born of the Spirit do, because only they have faith.
---MarkV. on 1/1/10


katr4453- **I believe the righteousness of Christ comes the moment we are Justified. God IMPUTES the Righteousness of Christ, not imparts.

AMEN! That is the view held my most expositors of the Bible.

Roman Catholics hold the contrary view that one acquires the righteousness of Christ thru living the faith.
---Lee1538 on 12/31/09


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I believe the righteousness of Christ comes the moment we are Justified. God IMPUTES the Righteousness of Christ, not imparts.

The very moment we are raised up together with Him a NEW CREATURE/Born Again, we are In Christ,by that have the Righteousness of Christ. Paul in Phil 3 said not my own Righteousness but the Righteousness that comes by the faith of Christ...

However, MarkV,this has NOTHING to do with getting your name picked out of a hat!

How does it Come?

Hebrews 11:6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
---kathr4453 on 12/31/09


I echo the previous post concerning man's righteousness.
As far as going to heaven, I have found no place in scripture that states that man will be going anywhere.
Our heavenly city, the New Jerusalem, comes down to us. Rev. 3:12>21:2,10
---josef on 12/31/09


-- MarkV :

Brother, I know you're just endeavoring to reveal the false perception of 'Righteousness', b/c there can be no "True Righteousness" without the Grace of God found in Christ : for by His obedience only shall many be made 'Righteous'. Rom.5:19

We testify in the Lord, that those who walk after the vanity of their own minds, have their understanding darkened & falsely perceive themselves as righteous through the ignorance that is in them b/c of the blindness of their hearts being separated from the Life in Christ taught by God.

Righteousness comes when we're renewed in the spirit of our minds through putting on the 'New Man', which after God is created in Righteousness & True Holiness. Eph.17-23
---Shawn.M.T. on 12/30/09


1 Cor.1:30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

Truly our righteousness is in Christ alone.
---Lee1538 on 12/30/09


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NO NO NO,THATS A BIG NO ONE.
---tom2 on 12/30/09


Romans 3 "...There is none righteous, no, not one..." (3:10)

John 14:6 "Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, and the life, i.e., no man comes to the Father, but by me."

Matthew 6:9 "...Our Father which are in heaven..."
---Leon on 12/30/09


The answer is no!!! This question is addressed in extreme clearness in Isaiah 64:6," But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags(menstrual rags in the Hebrew), and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" so the answer can clearly be discerned!
---mima on 12/30/09


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