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144,000 In Revelation 7

Who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7? Are they Jews, Gentiles or simply believing Christians? Is the number literal or symbolic? If symbolic then what does it symbolize?

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Trav 2/12/10- Heb.8:8 says BOTH the house of Israel AND Judah, which represent the entire nation of Israel were part of the 'new covenant'. That's what Heb.8:8 says.

Christ did not come just for the 'house' of Judah. The scripture says Christ came for the 'lost sheep of ISRAEL'.

Prophecy at Eze.37:22- the 2 'nations' will be one again. This evidently happened when Christ instigated the 'new covenant' of which the 2 'houses' belong. Heb.8:8.

Jesus instigated the 'new covenant' at Lu.22:19-30. The chosen 144,000 receive a Heavenly Kingdom reward & judge the whole '12 tribes of Israel'. Heb.12:22.

The 'other sheep' of John 10:16 are not of this heavenly Kingdom government fold of 144,000.
---David8318 on 2/12/10


The two are "One" and are of the same body Eph. 2:14-16). Through His cross.
---MarkV. on 2/12/10

So plain MarkV you provided it above. The two houses are one now. Also formerly of the same body being 12 nations, sons of Jacob Collective House of Israel.

Through his Cross / Heb 8:8 they are reunited.

Judah/Edom Esau are the most unhappy about it.
Judah, who was widowed not divorced, Esau, Jacobs Twin who lost his birthright but would throw the yoke off.

Irregardless....what you are having a hard time applying/seeing/finding is the other 10 nations who were/are and always will be Israel. They are the nations/ethnos translated "gentiles" mentioned in most scripture you are referring too.
---Trav on 2/12/10


Trav, Peter as well as Paul both used the exact words God spoke about Israel and applied them to believers in Christ. They both taught that believing Jews and non-Jews, together are "the people of God" "The elect" of God, and "The Israel of God" (1 Peter 2:9-10, Colossians 3:11-12, Galatians 6:16). The two are "One" and are of the same body Eph. 2:14-16). Through His cross. The fact is that God has always had a faithful Israel throughtout history composed of true Israelites and true Gentiles who believe in the Messiah (either looking forward to His cross in the Old Testament days or looking back to His all sufficient atonement).
---MarkV. on 2/12/10


Rod, my point exactly. What I have been trying to convey Trav. But since he answers differently I am having a hard time knowing his answer.
---MarkV. on 2/12/10


mima, please define your terms.

"All Israel will be saved?"

So they don't need Christ? Who is Israel? Jews? All? Old Testament Israel/Jews? Secular Jews? Israelites? Umm...
---Rod4Him on 2/12/10




I would like to go on record as saying, that I am one of the people who believe "that all Israel will be saved"
---mima on 2/12/10


Trav #2: What about Pauls controverial statement that "all Israel will be saved?" As I said before that many apply this to a mass conversion of Israelis at Armageddon. The context reveals otherwise. When Paul wrote that "all Israel will be saved" he didn't mean that at some point every Jewish person would find salvation, for in the same chapter he wrote, "If by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them" They, individual Jewish people also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in (verse 23) Which Israel? "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" Rom. 9:6. There is an "Israel after the flesh" 1 Cor. 10:18.
---MarkV. on 2/12/10


In (Eph. 2:11-16) For He Himself is OUR PEACE..who has made BOTH one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation.. to created in Himself one new man from the TWO.. and that He might RECONCILE them BOTH to God in one body through the cross.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10

MarkV, two things required here for truth. Heb 8:8 states the two groups that have a wall of separation.
Prophet to back us for a witness.
20The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

Ez4:3...wall/sign
Ez4:5 ... so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 ... and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
---Trav on 2/12/10


Trav- If your theory is correct- then which one of the 'houses' at Heb.8:8 are 'not of this fold'? Which one of the 'houses' do not enter the Kingdom 'through the door' (Christ)? Jo.10:9.
---David8318 on 2/11/10

David, two witnesses negate a theory/story/false witness. All prophets witness Heb 8:8, physically.

Consider he came to his own...Judah. They would have him not....the sheep not of JUDAH fold are the Lost Sheep of the Nth House of Israel.

Judah, does not/will not enter the door at this time that Christ holds open. They would not enter it then as we know, in effect, asking for the death of. His death, widowed the other Nations allowing them re-newal/redemption/remarriage/.
---Trav on 2/12/10


Not fleshly Israel, but spiritual Israel, the 'Israel of God', Gal.6:16.
---David8318 on 2/11/10

Israel.
The laws in the heart: this is open to interpretation or study in that, It could mean All Israel, both Houses or Just the Nth House Nations. My personal belief because of the Signs given by probable/possible/Judeans for 2,000 years is that only the Nth House Nations have these written in heart. <
Spiritual Israel like "ghost" thing...is not supported the way you are communicating it. It is noted,Christ ate,drank and they physically touched his wounds.
---Trav on 2/12/10




Trav, It is a spiritual Israel that Bible is talking about. When the Jewish Church expanded into the Roman world, the question was finally raised, "Is our Messiah only for us?" What about the Gentiles?" Then, unexpectedly, God's spirit fell on non-Jews (see Acts 10:44-45). The Jewish counsel of believers convened in Jerusalem to discuss the issue of Gentiles (Acts 15). Finally the Spirit of the Lord broke through the fog and revealed what had been accomplished by the Messiah. In (Eph. 2:11-16) For He Himself is our peace..who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation.. to created in Himself one new man from the two.. and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross.
---MarkV. on 2/11/10


Trav- If your theory is correct- then which one of the 'houses' at Heb.8:8 are 'not of this fold'? Which one of the 'houses' do not enter the Kingdom 'through the door' (Christ)? Jo.10:9.

Are you not able to see how Paul was applying Jeremiah's prophecy at 31:31? Both the house of Israel and Judah are part of the 'new covenant'. Heb.8:8 says so. The 'other sheep' of John10:16 however are 'not of this fold' of which the house of Israel and Judah are.

Individuals who are party to the 'new covenant' as Paul said at Heb.12:22 approach a 'HEAVENLY Jerusalem'. They are the ones who have the 'law written in their hearts'. 'Circumcision of the heart, not flesh'. Not fleshly Israel, but spiritual Israel, the 'Israel of God', Gal.6:16.
---David8318 on 2/11/10


Heb.8:8 does not apply to fleshly Israel, but to spiritual Israel- the 'ISRAEL of GOD', Gal.6:16 of which Jews, and later Samaritans and Gentiles were invited to be a part of.
---David8318 on 2/10/10

Well that is a better theory than anyone has come up with. I call it theory because the O.Testament prophets won't stand with you. I have to work right now but, I'll bring some prophets tomorrow night. Not, being smart...just facts.
---Trav on 2/10/10


Jeremiah prophesied God would conclude a 'new covenant' with the house of Israel and Judah- or the nation of Israel as a WHOLE. Jer.31:31.

'Israel' and 'Judah' as a whole nation were under the old 'law covenant' mediated by Moses. Israel as a whole was invited by Christ to partake in the 'new covenant' but many rejected this & Christ.

In application of Jer.31:31, Paul explained at Heb.12:22 that those in the 'new covenant' with Christ had approached 'heavenly Jerusalem'. Thus, Heb.8:8 does not apply to fleshly Israel, but to spiritual Israel- the 'ISRAEL of GOD', Gal.6:16 of which Jews, and later Samaritans and Gentiles were invited to be a part of.

Those in the 'new covenant', the 'Israel of God' number 144,000. Re.7:4.
---David8318 on 2/10/10


They are the Jewish people, God's chosen people. -- Lawrence

Lawrence I think you've hit it on the head though I had some Watchtower people assault me outside a Home Depot striving to make sure they can be one of the 144k.
The Jehovah's Witness believe they are chosen to be the 144k or at least thats what some of them have stated.
I need to learn more about Charles Taze Russell and the JW cult so I can better defend the true faith.
---larry on 2/10/10


Dan. 9 clearly says that 70 weeks are determined upon thy people. When the Jews rejected Jesus they ceased to be God's chosen people. Gal. says if you are Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed. All the literal promises to the Jewish nation will find fulfillment in spiritual Israel. Further, there are 3 instances in Rev where John says I heard, then I saw. He heard something described, then he saw what it was. It's in chap. 1, this reference, and 17 I believe. He heard the number then saw the reality. 144,000 is figurative. peace.
---senshent1 on 2/10/10


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Trav on 2/9/10- If you are saying that the 2 sheepfolds of John 10 are the ones described at Heb.8:8, then which one of the 'houses' of Heb.8:8 are 'not of this fold'?

The 2 'houses' at Heb.8:8 are part of the 'new covenant', that's what Heb.8 says. But Jesus said 'the other sheep are NOT OF THIS FOLD', that is they are not part of the 'new covenant'. The 'other sheep' are not of the fold that enter the Kingdom through the 'door' that is Christ- John 10:9.

So the 'other sheep' of John 10:16 do not enter 'through the door' & are nothing to do with the 'new covenant' at Heb.8:8 and Jer.31:31.

2 SHEEP FOLDS- the 'new covenant' or 144,000 and the 'other sheep' who are 'not of this (new covenant) fold'.
---David8318 on 2/10/10


They are the Jewish people, God's First chosen. 12,000 each from the 12 tribes = 144,000. At the appointed time from God, they will escape out from the anti-christ etc & go to that place that is called Petra.
God gives charge that there is No infiltrating, bombings etc from the a-christ
at Petra.
---Lawrence on 2/10/10


Trav on 1/17/10- ..2nd sheepfold at John 10:16, Jesus says he 'will bring' them and they 'will listen and become one flock'.
---David8318 on 2/8/10

Two Sheepfolds. Heb 8:8. The Nth,divorced house 10 nations, and the House of Judah. Witnessed in above verse.
Did Jesus fail? Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The lost Sheep of the House has accepted for 2000 years, the other house....???
Consider a marriage, a divorce,a promise of remarriage. A sacrificial death of the husband to free/save the complete wife.
10 virgins, ten coins, ten servants...ten,ten, 12 apostles, 12 nations, 12 mths, 12 jurors, 12 judging in Revelations.
---Trav on 2/9/10


Trav on 1/17/10- yes I agree prophets do prophesy. Jesus was a prophet, not a history teacher. Your explanation of Judah not being divorced and the northern 10 tribes 'were' and thus were the 'not of this fold' group is interesting. But prophets are not history teachers are they? I thought to be a prophet was one who is telling the future, is it not?

Jesus at John 10:1-16 was speaking of two FUTURE sheepfolds, not past events. Regarding the 2nd sheepfold at John 10:16, Jesus says he 'will bring' them and they 'will listen and become one flock'. Jesus is talking of future events. After all, he is a prophet.
---David8318 on 2/8/10


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A High Tech Science Translation:
Revelation 14:1. KJV. 144,000.
v:4. "These are they which were not defiled with women: for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb redeemed from among men,-."
Jesus was Celibate and had a Celibate Male Movement.
Virgin Jesus went Alive with God/Us, to train for the Life on a new Planet, like the Adam Group.
The female Helpmeets will be made from the Males' Rib like in Genesis 2.
Natural Born Humans handed down religion and myth as Supernatural until today.
---Dolores on 1/20/10


The whole book of Revelation is symbolic. Therefore the number 144,000 contained in it must also be symbolic.
---Old.John on 1/15/10

It is symbolic. It is symbolic of ALL the Nations of Israel. 12,000 from each tribe times 12,000. Reject cemetary/seminary trained preachers saying that Judah equals all Israel. GOD his prophets, their writings plainly witness otherwise.

The preacher/teacher thinking they are not in this group are Jealous of Israel. They seek another way to climb in sheepfold. The Irony is,blind to the other nations of Israel....they might be of them. ha. Power of GOD to hide a thing,fulfills a multitude of scripture, revealing truth again in their blindness.
---Trav on 1/20/10


the word of GOD is right to the point you don't have to add or take away from it say's it all.
the 144,000 are hebrews and the word tells us that in 7: 4-8
now in rev. 7:9-12 are the gentiles( they were from every race,tribe,nation,and language.....what more could be said?
---moses on 1/19/10


Hebrews 8:8, (quotes Jer.31:21-23) must refer to the first sheepfold ...

The 'other sheep' at Jo.10:16 thus do not share in the 'new covenant' with the 144,000.
---David8318 on 1/16/10

David, a specific test for this or any doctrine/denom would be do the prophets....prophesy what you are saying? Well, no they don't.
Start at the begining....Judah was not divorced. The other 10 divorced Nations 0f Israel were, and were the "not of this fold" group.
Judah's priest/apostles were the ones being addressed in your scriptures. Leading to the fact that by death of Christ freeing thw former wife the other Nations of Israel would/could be accepted. Heb 8:8-10 and Jer 31:31-33. Two sticks.....and much more.
---Trav on 1/17/10


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In response to Trav, clearly Jesus spoke of 2 sheepfolds at John10 and Revelation7.

The first sheepfold enters 'through the door (Christ)' and must therefore refer to the sheepfold of Christians who will rule with Jesus in heaven.

The 'other sheep' at 10:16 are different because Jesus said they are 'not of this fold' of 10:1-15. Thus, the 'other sheep' do not pass 'through the door' as do the first sheepfold.

Hebrews 8:8, (quotes Jer.31:21-23) must refer to the first sheepfold of John 10 who enter 'through the door (Christ)' because they have entered into the 'new covenant' inaugurated by Christ at the Lords evening meal, Lu.22:20.

The 'other sheep' at Jo.10:16 thus do not share in the 'new covenant' with the 144,000.
---David8318 on 1/16/10


Hi Eloy. You have made a good point. Anything anyone says is in a sense symbolic, as the words we use are but symbols for actions, things and concepts.
---Old.John on 1/16/10


Old John, is all that Old John says symbolic? Then likewise, neither is the detailed account recorded in Revelation symbolic, for I promise you that not one point nor one title will fail of the prophecy until all of it is indeed fulfilled.
---Eloy on 1/16/10


The whole book of Revelation is symbolic. Therefore the number 144,000 contained in it must also be symbolic.
---Old.John on 1/15/10


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Then at John 10:16, Jesus says 'I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold (the 'fold' at 10:1-15)', but would be one flock under one shepherd.

2 'sheepfolds' with 2 different hopes.2 'sheepfolds' at Revelation 7- 144,000
---David8318 on 1/12/10

The other sheepfold is the Nth House of Israel. Heb 8:8. They were the Lost Sheep Of The House of Israel.
Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
This nation is multi millions. Stars of Heaven, Sand of Beach for number....if not quite there yet it will be. It's stated more than once.
---Trav on 1/15/10


Lee1538 is correct in that many Christians have been martyred. For sure more than 144,000.

On at least 2 occasions Jesus taught there are 2 'groups' a Christian can belong to.

At John 10:1-15 for example, Jesus describes a 'sheepfold entering through a door...'. Then at John 10:16, Jesus says 'I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold (the 'fold' at 10:1-15)', but would be one flock under one shepherd.

2 'sheepfolds' with 2 different hopes.

Jesus revealed further information about these 2 'sheepfolds' at Revelation 7- 144,000 (the 'little flock', Lu.12:32, Jo.10:1-15, Re.7:4) and the 'Great Multitude' (Jo.10:16, Re.7:9).

The 'other sheep'(Jo.10:16), also contains hundreds of thousands of Christian martyrs.
---David8318 on 1/12/10


Trav, Yes, the death of the husband frees the wife to remarry
But God was the husband of adulteress Israel, and He's immortal. So she is NEVER free to remarry!
Trav???
---1st_cliff on 1/2/10

You believe YAHSHUA,Christ son of GOD, & GOD. He died.

You believe the New Covenant, right?
Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with house of Israel and with house of Judah:

Acknowledging that GOD can do anything he wants to, with anyone he chooses....gives one peace.
Luke 1:72
To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant

Heb9:...necessity be the death of the testator.
Cliff??
---Trav on 1/10/10


Barnes Notes Lk.12:32. Little flock. Our Saviour often represents himself as a shepherd, his followers as a flock or as sheep. In Judea it was a common employment to attend flocks. The shepherd defended them, provided for them, led them to green pastures and beside still waters. In all things Jesus was and is eminently the Good Shepherd. His flock was small. Few really followed him, compared with the multitude who professed to love him. But, though small in number, they were not to fear. God would provide for them. It was his purpose to give them the kingdom, and they had nothing to fear, see #Mt 6:19-21.

144,000 would be an extremely small number as history attest more have been martyred for His safe over the past 20 centuries.
---Lee1538 on 1/10/10


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Who are the 144,000 mentioned at Revelation 7?

Jesus said at Luke 12:32, "Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom."

The number making up the 'LITTLE FLOCK' remained a sacred secret, until Jesus gave the Revelation to John where we see the 'LITTLE FLOCK' number 144,000. Re,7:4, 14:1-3. These will receive "the kingdom" and will rule with Christ in heaven.

The 144,000 are described as 'little' because they are smaller in number compared to the 'other sheep' described by Jesus at John 10:16. The 'other sheep' today are prospective members of the 'Great Multitude' of Revelation 7:9, who survive the 'Great Trib.'(7:14) and will receive Kingdom blessings on earth.
---David8318 on 1/9/10


Interesting view on the 144000,I dont know how to connect it with the fact that they are all male Jewish virgins as well..But where did you come to the conclusion that the "church-age" ended at such and such a date?..you must have a serious re-think on that score,it's well dodgy and shot through with the sort of spiel produced and changed at regular intervals by J.witnesse's,dont buy it,get saved, you will never be sorry!
---richard on 1/7/10


144,000 were just symbolical. There were the saved people during the church age from the day of Pentecost May 22, 33 A.D to 1988.
We must realize that the number 144,000 is a symbolical number. It is made of 12,000 from each of 12 tribes of Israel. Especially in the Book of Revelation, the number 12 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view, and the number 10, or 100 or 1,000, signifies the completeness of whatever is in view. For example, the holy city, the new Jerusalem, is 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia by 12,000 stadia. It has a wall that is 144 (12 x 12) cubits. These numbers signify the fullness or the complete fullness of all believers who make up the eternal Jerusalem.
---rosalie on 1/7/10


"steveng"..yeah,you make fair comment,I also realise that Zech 14 v5 talks of fleeing to "Azal"..what that means would be good to know?(apparantly after Jesus's feet touch the mount of olives too),it is open for conjecture and my great hope is that more Christians would! I'm so bored with believers who dare not to speculate and search beyond the boundaries of the basics.Perhaps there is a 5th group,Jews and believers from out of the tribulation who manage to survive,not being turned to ashes with the wicked(Mal 3 v1).Plenty us Christians yet need to learn!
---richard on 1/7/10


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richard: "...or die because mortal flesh will not go into the millenium."

Except those who have endured unto the end.

Matthew 10:22
Matthew 24:13
Mark 13:13
2 Thessalonians 1:4
2 Timothy 3:11 (for those who believe in pre trib rapture)
1 Peter 1:25
---Steveng on 1/6/10


I agree with Lee1538 that God will keep his promises He made with the nation of Israel and after the times of the Gentiles. The difference perhaps is who will make up that 'new nation', or 'new creation' as Paul put it.

Jeremiah prophesied that God would make a 'new covenant' to come after the 'Law covenant' when he said God 'will put (his) law within them, and in their heart I shall write it...' Jer.31:21-23.

Membership of the 144,000 is not according to fleshly decent. Paul understood this to be the case when he wrote- 'He is not a Jew who is one on the outside... his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code'. Ro.2:28.
---David8318 on 1/6/10


A lot of scripture interpretation boils down to commonsense as well as the obvious revelation that the Holy spirit provides..when you read the account,where do Christians,(let alone any usable interpretation of the number 144000)get "sealed" in the forehead?..I would suggest a division of elect Christians(born again),elect Israel(144000 sealed),nominal Christians,nominal Israel and Gentiles,obviously the last 3 groups will go through the tribulation,some will believe but will suffer matyrdom or die because mortal flesh will not go into the millenium.
---richard on 1/6/10


David - I believe the Scripture supports the view that God will keep His promises He made to the nation of Israel and after the times of the Gentiles (Lk. 21:24),they will be restored.

Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


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..difference between Israel and the church.These jewish "firstfruits" are sealed on earth...a mystery to be searched out..
---richard on 1/5/10

There is no mystery except the blinded teachings catholics/denom churches interject. Jews do not equal all Israel. There were multi millions of Israel.
Churches are/were Israel for the most part....even in heritage.
Look at the blessing covenants that never have ended unless the sun and moon go away you can see the fulfillment of these around the world today. You/I believe GOD does or will do what he says, yet the churches are surprised when pointed at or out.
---Trav on 1/5/10


Lee1538- I'm not so sure the nation of Israel today will acknowledge the Messiah and be restored.

Christ said to the Jewish Chief Priests of his day at Mt.21:43- 'The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits'.

That 'nation producing (kingdom) fruits' is the one described by Peter at 1Pe.2:9- 'But you are 'a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.' These ones have been 'chosen' and anointed with HolySpirt because of their exercising faith in Christ. These chosen ones number 144,000- Re.7:4.

Your point regarding lack of ancestral records is valid. Only God knows. Romans 9:6- 'For not all who spring from Israel are really "Israel" '.
---David8318 on 1/5/10


When John wrote Revelation there would have not been confusion about the difference between Israel and the church.These jewish "firstfruits" are sealed on earth,they are next mentioned in Heaven,it's a mystery to be searched out..
---richard on 1/5/10


//You may believe that God exists, but you surely deny his power when you think like you wrote.

Yes, God does have the power to keep the distinctions if that was His will. I never once for a moment doubted that.

From a human standpoint, it is hard to conceive of how any of the Israeli tribes could be identified today considering that the 10 northern tribes virtually disappeared after 720 B.C. and were scattered and probably assimilated into other peoples during the past 3,000 years.

It is all too easy to see why some look for another explanation of the 144,000.
---Lee1538 on 1/5/10


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Symbolic of all those who can say:
I will praise the Lord for He has looked on me and granted good fortune. Happy am I because my wrestling God is making me to forget. God hears me and is joined to me. He has purchased me a dwelling. God will add to me the Son of His right hand."
---francis on 1/5/10


The 144,000 cannot be the tribes of natural Israel. ---David8318 on 1/4/10

David, I would/do test anything anyone professes. What better witnesses than prophets? Who would go against one?? Well, 2-3 we all know. But,a rational christian?

Ez 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12Therefore prophesy,say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Note Context of 37:16. Explains divisions of ALL nations of Israel. JUDAH only makes up one side. Not all.
---Trav on 1/5/10


"Brother Tommy, thank you for the warning. I do like how you answer and in fact I am a very good supporter to what you write. Sorry, I have a different opinion then you on these subject. In fact a very different one. No problem. What happens to the 144,000 and who they are, does not effect me in this life. In the next life with Christ they will be my brothers in Christ as everyone who is born of the Spirit no matter who they are now."
---MarkV. on 1/3/10

Bless you Mark. Now that is a response indicative of one truly "born of the Spirit". Very admirable sir.
---josef on 1/5/10


Lee1538: "Frankly, I often wonder how this distinction can be made as to what tribes one belongs considering the scattering of the Jewish people all over the world and lack of ancestry records."

You may believe that God exists, but you surely deny his power when you think like you wrote. But don't worry, you are in good company as most christians believe this way. Trust God, not man to bring them together. It is God who will bring together his elect as scriptures says. If you had to depend upon man to do God's will is, well, impossible.

If God can resurrect all humans from the dust of the earth, he surely can bring his people back in their proper tribes.
---Steveng on 1/4/10


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David8318 //The 144,000 cannot be the tribes of natural Israel. The Jews today do not 'follow the Lamb', and reject the Messiah. Also, the tribal listing isn't the same as at Numbers 1:4-16.

But we do read in Romans 9 that eventually Israel will acknowledge their Messiah and be restored.

If that will be the case, then there is no good reason to believe the 144,000 can be anything but what the Scipture says - 12,000 from each of the tribes.

Frankly, I often wonder how this distinction can be made as to what tribes one belongs considering the scattering of the Jewish people all over the world and lack of ancestry records.
---Lee1538 on 1/4/10


The best place to find the answer to the questions is in Rev. 7 and 14.
Some believe that because the Bible says that the 144.000 are not defled because they are virgins, it must mean that all the 144.000 must be virgins too. However I would like to sges tht the term is used here to imply that "pure" or not defiled with the woman in Rev. 17.
I also believe that the 144.000 are also not the only ones saved in the last days. Im Ch 7 it talks about the remnant as a great multitude that no man can number.
It is possible that the 144.000 represent the
"gospel workers" for whom there is going to be a special place at the head table at the victory banquet, Rev 14
---Pierre on 1/4/10


Jews, Gentiles or Christians?

The 144,000 'follow the Lamb',(Re.14:4), so they must be Christians.

The 144,000 cannot be the tribes of natural Israel. The Jews today do not 'follow the Lamb', and reject the Messiah. Also, the tribal listing isn't the same as at Numbers 1:4-16.

Revelation says they're from the 'tribe... of Israel', so they're of similar organization and purpose.

Paul described those who had been anointed with HolySpirit as the 'Israel of God'. Gal.6:16. The 'Israel of God' receive a 'spirit of adoption' and become 'heirs' with Christ- Ro.8:15.

The 144,000 are thus spiritual Israelites, chosen from 'nations and tongues' & will 'rule over earth' with Christ during Millennium. Re.5:10.
---David8318 on 1/4/10


Are people who are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel considered "Gentiles"?
---JackB on 1/2/10

10 nations were "goyim",until the death of Christ. 10 formally divorced nations, 13 widowed nations.
Reuben,firstborn,
Simeon and Levi. Judah, he whom thy brethren shall praise:
10.The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, ...unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
13.Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea,
14.Issachar
16.Dan 19.Gad,
20.Asher his bread shall be fat, 21.Naphtali
22.Joseph is a fruitful bough,
Israel:)
27.Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf:
(Ephraim/Mannasseh equal one Nation.)
---Trav on 1/4/10


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Brother Tommy, thank you for the warning. I do like how you answer and in fact I am a very good supporter to what you write. Sorry, I have a different opinion then you on these subject. In fact a very different one. No problem. What happens to the 144,000 and who they are, does not effect me in this life. In the next life with Christ they will be my brothers in Christ as everyone who is born of the Spirit no matter who they are now.
---MarkV. on 1/3/10


David8318 --Gal.4:21-26 is a 'symbolic drama', picturing the 2 covenants- the Mosaic Law Covenant (Hagar) and the Abrahamic Covenant (the 'free woman'- Sarah). The 'present Jerusalem' or Hagar, is in slavery to the handwritten Mosaic Law.

Beautiful! if we could only get those that advocate adherence to the Mosaic law to subscribe to what Galatians has to state.

Unfortunately there are those that have eyes that will not see because they have been blinded by religion.
---Lee1538 on 1/3/10


Brother MarkV, I will stand with my previous post, the 144,000 are literal descendants of Israel(Jacob)as listed in Revelation 7:5-8 from each of the 12 tribes. The reference mentioned from James, was addressed to his brothers in the flesh, just as the Apostle Paul expressed desire for his "brethren" (Jews) to be converted to Christ. Don't go pushing things around to make them fit your desires, that's dangerous business Brother.
---tommy3007 on 1/3/10


In response to Lee1538, Galatians 6:16 is a concluding salutation found at the end of Paul's letter, and his use of the term 'Israel of God', is a general description of all Christians reading his letter at the time.

I do agree with Lee in that the 'Israel of God' belong to the 'Jerusalem above'. Paul wrote at Hebrews 12:22- 'But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem...'

Gal.4:21-26 is a 'symbolic drama', picturing the 2 covenants- the Mosaic Law Covenant (Hagar) and the Abrahamic Covenant (the 'free woman'- Sarah). The 'present Jerusalem' or Hagar, is in slavery to the handwritten Mosaic Law.

However, the 'Israel of God', the '144,000', approach Heavenly Jerusalem which 'is free'.
---David8318 on 1/3/10


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Jesus told his disciples that they would sit on thrones over the twelve tribes of Israel.
Salvation was to the Jew first but not all Jews believed, but those That believed were saved and are already in heaven. They were martyred for Jesus and given special places in heaven and separated by tribes and each of the Apostles are appointed over these tribes.
THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO WORRY ABOUT IS BECOMING ONE OF THIS MULTITUDE
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands,
---exzucuh on 1/3/10


Some take it literally and others symbolically. If it is understood symbolically, it appears strange that there is such a detailed enumeration of the tribes. To be honest with you, I'm not too interested.
---catherine on 1/3/10


Is the number literal or symbolic?

In Revelation 7 John draws a contrast between verses 4 and 9. He states that the first group, 'those who were sealed', has a definite number (144,000). However, the second group, (7:9) 'a great crowd,' is without a definite number.

With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost.

Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 is literal. It also indicates that a Christian can have one of 2 destinies. A heavenly hope, (the 144,000) and an Earthly paradise hope (the 'great crowd').
---David8318 on 1/3/10


Steven G, concerning the 144,000 are described as standing on "Mount Zion" with the Lamb (Rev. 14:1). Mount Zion is where Jerusalem sits. Yet in Revelation "Mount Zion" does not refer to any mountain in the Middle East. John wrote "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and High mountain, and showed me the great city, the Holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" Rev. 21:10. As John was "in the Spirit" even so the 144,000. Paul told believers, "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" Hebrews 12:22-23.
---MarkV. on 1/3/10


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David8318

Gal. 6:16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

In the context of what is being discussed by Paul in this letter, the term Israel of
God is used to contrast the children of the 'present Jerusalem' (4:25) to the true people of God who are the believing children of Abraham (3:7,29) and who belong to the Jerusalem above (4:26-27).

It has nothing to do with the belief held some some that Christians belong to the tribes of Israel and must observe Torah laws.
---Lee1538 on 1/3/10


In response to Lee1538 of 1/2/10, Jehovah's Witnesses are not a 'section' (or 'sect') of any of Christendom's trinitarian movements. For example, the Protestant, Anglican church is a 'sect' of the RCC which broke away from the RCC during Henry VIII reign. The Anglican movement has itself fragmented into various 'sects'.

Most religious movements claim exclusivity over the 144,000. Some claim literal Israel to be such as can be seen from comments here.

The Israelites and Jesus "the Lamb", worshipped YHWH (Jehovah). Jesus was 'the Faithful witness' of Jehovah. Re.1:5.

Thus, the 'Israel of God', the 144,000 (Gal.6:15,16) who 'follow the Lamb', would also be worshipers of the Almighty God, YHWH (Jehovah).
---David8318 on 1/3/10


Jack B, you're welcome to disagree. Like I said before that is your right. I put my answers through studying the Word of God. God might be trying to reveal a Truth to you but your pride won't let you even check to see if what is said is truth. God has revealed things to me through many who answered here, and I check what they say with the Word. In the same manner all I can do is put it down, from there on God will use the Truth for His purpose. I disagree with Paul9594 that new believers are under the law but I don't hate him at all. He wants to be under the law, that is his right.
You have got angry with me to the point that a blog was removed. You don't have to get angry, you have to be prepared to answer why you believe in what you do.
---MarkV. on 1/3/10


It is my understanding that the 144,000 appear after the Jewish nation has been restored and they have come to recognize the fact that they murdered the Messiah.

The 'times of the Gentiles' has ended (Lk. 21:24)and the 'natural branches have been grafted back into their own olive tree' - Romans 11:24.

If such is true, then the 144,000 can only be Jewish and why else should the writer speak of 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel?

It is simply a convolution of the Scripture to attempt to read into this passage that the 144,000 are anything rather than Jews.
---Lee1538 on 1/2/10


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MarkV: "Therefore they are Christians who love Jesus."

Revelation 7 describes specifically who the 144,000 people are. They are the twelve tribes of Israel - the descendant of Abraham, "all the tribes of the children of Israel." Christians are not part of the tribels of Israel. Christians are not Jews, but they do inherit the promises God gave to Abraham through legal succession - or the new covanent. Christians are grafted into the promises.
---Steveng on 1/2/10


MarkV.

U said:

Brother Tommy, I have a different interpretation on these subject.
The 144,000 "follows the Lamb wherever He goes" (Revelation 14:1,4). Therefore they are Christians who love Jesus. They are "Not defiled with women, for they are virgins" (Revelation 14:4). This does not mean the 144,000 is composed of only literal Jewish, unmarried, or celibate men. If so, this would be teaching mass celibacy, a dogma which Paul called a "doctrine of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1-3). In 2 Cor. 11:2, Paul also used the word "virgin" and he applied it to the Church.///


Damn, I have to agree to your posting on these points!!

But I do not agree with your the law was done away sharing!!
---Paul9594 on 1/2/10


Yeah I dont know how much more clear the Bible has to be when it describes 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes as the 144,000.... all males and all virgins.

You knew someone was gonna disagree though.

For all we know they could all be 12 year old boys and thats why they're still virgins. Who is to say that God cant use children.
---JackB on 1/2/10


Are people who are descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel considered "Gentiles"?
---JackB on 1/2/10


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Tommy Part 2: James wrote his letter "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad" James 1:1. Who were these twelve tribes? In the next sentence James called them, "My brethren" Then he wrote to them about "the testing of their faith" James 1:3. Thus, these "twelve tribes" which James wrote to as a unit, were believers in Christ. In the same letter He counseled those from among these Tribes, who were sick to "call for the elders of the Church" for special prayer, James 5:14. Thus to James the "Twelve tribes" were definitely part of the Church.
The 144,000 represents a final remnant of God's Israel in the Spirit, compose of believing Jews and Gentiles.
---MarkV. on 1/2/10


Historically there has been different 'Christian' sects that claimed they were the treasured 144,000 of Revelation.

One such group today is the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe they made up the 144,000.

Another groups were the Seventh Day Adventists believing that since they alone kept the 10 commandments, they were the 144,000, but we hear very little from them today regarding that claim.
---Lee1538 on 1/2/10


"Who are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7?"
I believe it to be just as it is written. 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel, with the exclusion of Dan and the addition of Manasses.
"Are they Jews, Gentiles or simply believing Christians?"
All of the above as the "whole house of Israel".
"Is the number literal or symbolic?"
The number appears to be literal "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." "the number of them which were sealed:"
---joseph on 1/2/10


Brother Tommy, I have a different interpretation on these subject.
The 144,000 "follows the Lamb wherever He goes" (Revelation 14:1,4). Therefore they are Christians who love Jesus. They are "Not defiled with women, for they are virgins" (Revelation 14:4). This does not mean the 144,000 is composed of only literal Jewish, unmarried, or celibate men. If so, this would be teaching mass celibacy, a dogma which Paul called a "doctrine of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1-3). In 2 Cor. 11:2, Paul also used the word "virgin" and he applied it to the Church. What about the 144,000 not being defiled with women? This is talking about the harlot ladies of Rev. 17.
---MarkV. on 1/2/10


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If you read the Scriptures carefully, you will find that these 144,000 are literal descendants of Israel(Jacob), 12,000 from each tribe. Some try to say these are others than actual descendants, but you really have to do some serious twisting of Scriptures to even begin to get there.
---tommy3007 on 12/31/09

Amen!
There is mucho twisting going on. The truth just doesn't seem logical to a twister.
Perhaps it is jealousy. Scripture seems to leave the twisters out of the stated prize. When in not knowing/recognizing where or who the lost sheep nations of Israel are....they may be jealous for naught. It may be them! The irony. Heb 8:8-10. Jer 31:33.
---Trav on 1/2/10


Amen Tommy

yes they are the elect
---Rhonda on 1/1/10


tommy3007 is right, and they are the elect.
---a_friend on 12/31/09


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